Tudor Nobility

Posted By on September 15, 2020

In this latest edition of Teasel’s Tudor Trivia, I explain the Great Chain of Being, the hierarchical structure of society, and the different levels of the nobility in the Tudor period.

I also explain why there could be numerous 1st Dukes, e.g. Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk, and his son-in-law, Henry Grey, 1st Duke of Suffolk.

50 thoughts on “Tudor Nobility”

  1. Michael Wright says:

    Your explanation is a big help in understanding the pecking order at court but where in the world did they get the idea that some people were better than other people? I can think of no place in the Bible where God mentions a class system. This system was instituted in cultures throughout the world. It’s a human construct to control the populace and saying it’s the way God intended was a way to justify it. We have a similar hierarchy in our government but not because it’s divinely ordained, it’ss just an efficient way to run things (in theory).

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Hi, Michael, no you are right except Kings and the priesthood and judges were appointed in the Torah as well as later books like Judges and Kings because the people moaned about needing leaders. Beyond that there was no class system to speak of although inevitably one grew up in the settled society. The most important part of settlement in the promised land was the division of the land which was based on the size of the tribes and family units. The land was of course to be inherited by sons and it was a patriarchal society, but Moses was challenged by the daughters of one of the heads of family. They had no brothers and told him straight they had toiled the same as everyone else and the law said that if no sons came along then the daughters were to inherit. No putting them aside to get a male heir, the girls inheritance was guaranteed. In the case of some noble titles the legal inheritance was tail male or sons only so the daughter had to inherit through her husband. A few titles allowed both male and female inheritance. Some women were co heirs with another relative. Anne Butler and the Ormonde Earldom in Ireland for example. This led to the dispute in the Boleyn and Butler families over the title. A class system is totally man made because people have always needed organising and it was always the way that someone would take the lead and probably end up as the leader. He would need some others to help and give orders and unfortunately the strongest might create a hierarchy and be top dog. I guess one just had to hope they would be a good ruler. Even if the ruler was the priest as in the Druids, the Celtic rulers, they would become an elite and even if they were equal to begin with, someone would be more successful and set themselves up with luxury or wealth above the other people. A Count or Earl was originally an official to control an area on behalf of the King called a county which is a Norman idea. The Franks used it. But the official was eventually given land of his own or took it and thus these titles evolved. The same was the case in the Church, the most powerful entity on earth in the Middle Ages, with the Pope, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops having land and being landlords. The higher clergy was just below the King even. It was a very swift process to form such a class society I think.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Wonderful explanation. Thank you BQ.

        1. Banditqueen says:

          You are welcome, Michael, but when you think about it some of us are just power hungry, others just lead, others follow and others oppress. Unfortunately, no matter how we fight against oppression, some people try to keep power.

  2. Christine says:

    You are correct Michael the bible does not mention a class system at all it was as you mention, just a system which evolved in countries throughout the world, thank you for explaining about the titles Claire, because I have often wondered how there can be so many first dukes and earls and barons of Sussex and Norfolk and Nottingham etc, it was lovely to see Teasel again also she obviously loves you very much, such an adorable little dog.

  3. Hans van Felius says:

    The hierarchy system in England was changing in Tudor times. Some historians blame the battles during the Wars of the Roses, when many of the aristocrats were killed. Which meant opportunities for new families. But the professionalisation of the administration proved to be a way of advancing in the hierarchy as well (see two of the best known examples, Thomas Wolsey and Thomas Cromwell). Another example: in 1488 Ralph Duncombe, a bondsman in the manor of Ivinghoe (Bucks) bought a manumision from his lord, the Bishop of Winchester, which made him and his four sons free men. Commoners, sometimes yeoman farmers, but due to the cultivation of sheep and the trade in wool both his surviving sons became very wealthy, and they were able to marry into the gentry and obtain manors, and later on, in the 18th century one of Ralphs descendants became Baron Feversham. And some of the gentry go down in the hierarchy and disappear into the class of yeoman farmers. At times I found the English class system to be rather confusing, when doing research.
    It is true the Bible does not give a class system. However, people have used Bible quotations to explain why there was a leading class and why there were servants or even slaves. I will have to dig deep to find a quote from a 16th century Dutch manuscript that uses Bible quotations to explain this. I thought I copied the page when I read it, but can’t find the copy right now…

    1. Christine says:

      Hi Hans, Ralph Duncombe is my distant ancestor they did indeed do very well, Sir Charles Duncombe in the reign of Charles 11 became a goldsmith and accumulated so much money, he lent some to the king, they were a most interesting family, some went abroad to America and the West Indies where they became sugar plantation and coffee plantation owners, originally from Buckinghamshire there is still the farm called Barley End farm in existence, the little church of St Mary Of Ivinghoe nearby where the family members were baptised, married and later laid to rest, there are some brass plaques of the family and they had their own pews being one of the prominent families of the district.

      1. Hans van Felius says:

        Well, what a surprise! You are “cousin” Christine then, since Ralph was my ancestor as well. Years ago I visited Duncombe Farm, St. Mary’s Ivinghoe I know very well. Was planning a visit again, while visiting the National Archives for some non Duncombe related research. And then Corona struck, so I will have to see if I can get there next year…

        1. Christine says:

          How very interesting it is indeed a small world, you are lucky to have visited the farm and the church, I havnt got around to doing so but maybe some day, the brass plaques in the church are of John Duncombe and his wife Alice Eglinton or Egleston, my ninth great grandparents, so glad you posted on this site, if you do not mind may I ask where you are from as your name sounds Dutch or Belgium thank you.

  4. Michael Wright says:

    Very interesting. Thank you.

  5. Michael Wright says:

    I’ve really enjoyed reading this conversation.

    1. Christine says:

      Small world isn’t it Michael?

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Hi Christine. Sure shows how over the centuries people have migrated to different parts of the world.
        Your comment reminds me of an old Steven Wright line: ‘It’s a small world but I wouldn’t want to paint it’.

        1. Christine says:

          Yes Iv heard that one!

  6. Hans van Felius says:

    Christine, I am Dutch.

    1. Christine says:

      Your English is excellent, it’s been very interesting conversing with you, very exciting to make contact with a distant relation.

  7. Banditqueen says:

    This is a really interesting discussion. The nobility certainly from the fourteenth century onwards did indeed begin to be added to from among the gentry and the merchant classes in particular.

    Hans and Christine have some very remarkable ancestors and its lovely to meet you, Hans.

    The nobility of England was very different to that of other countries and they were more parochial than their French counterparts. The lower nobility often did rise as much through service as through birth but they often faced opposition and derision by the higher and older nobles. The Boleyn family aspired to the nobility, coming from the merchant classes but with connections to the Butlers of Ireland who claimed the title of Earl of Ormonde, with Thomas and James Boleyn claiming it also through the female line. A marriage between Anne Boleyn and James Butler was meant to bring them that title. However, that didn’t come about and Thomas became Earl of Wiltshire by creation instead.

    A classic example of a family who rose through the ranks to become nobility and originally Earls and Dukes of Suffolk before falling from grace was the De La Poles. Around the crown and in merchant service since the 1290s, this family from Hull were rich enough to lend huge sums of money to the crown. This wasn’t a good idea because it often lead to trouble as the King rarely repaid those debts. William and Richard de la Pole as rich wool merchants financed the wars of Edward I and iii and received rewards as a result. However, as Edward iii lost money in his wars the fortunes of the family suffered, but they were influential enough to dominate the wool trade and be called to Parliament. The next generation, in Michael de la Pole rose through military service to knighthood and then to become Earl of Suffolk. Michael saw his career take off and flounder under Richard ii, losing his lands and position in the Merciless Parliament and dying in Paris. His son became the Second Earl although at first he had no lands. He saw service under Henry of Lancaster and died on campaign with Henry V. His brother also died shortly afterwards as the third Earl. His second son rose quickly under the next King Henry vi, being elevated to Duke of Suffolk. His royal master wasn’t interested in the wars with France and this William de la Pole was blamed for the disastrous peace in 1450. William the First Duke of Suffolk was accused of corruption, banished and then murdered as his ship was intervened by his enemies. His widow, Alice Chaucer, however, made certain her son, John de la Pole, the Second Duke was pushed into the political world he tried to avoid by somehow arranging to marry him to the daughter of Richard, Duke of York, Elizabeth, the sister of the future Edward iv and Richard iii. The family remained loyal to the House of York, the younger generation in the extreme. While the Second Duke stayed neutral even under Henry Vii, his sons caused trouble. John, Earl of Lincoln and a supporter of Richard iii raised an army to get rid of Henry Tudor and was killed at East Stoke in 1487. Edmund de la Pole, the next Duke fell out with Tudor and fled the country, pushing his claim from abroad. Eventually betrayed and forced to return, he was imprisoned by Henry Vii and remained in the Tower until he was beheaded by Henry Viii before his wars with France. The Last White Rose as he called himself, Richard de la Pole styled himself King Richard iv and Duke of Suffolk. He was killed fighting for the King of France in 1525 at the Battle of Pavia.

    The title of Duke of Suffolk was confiscated by King Henry viii who passed it off to his pal Sir Charles Brandon in 1514, again for military service alongside the entire De La Pole estates. Originally the title Duke in England was reserved for the son or brothers of the King, created as such by Edward I and iii. Their numerous sons bore the title Duke and from them came the numerous older families related to the royal family, including the Howards and the Neville family and the Dukes of Norfolk and Lancaster and so on. The Queen is presently the Duke of Lancaster as the Kings after Henry iv inherited the title. As Duke of Suffolk, Charles Brandon was looked down upon and resentment was often a problem with the rise of commoners to the higher nobility. A good number of the Dukes did fall during the so called Wars of the Roses but by then numerous members of ordinary professions were being appointed to official posts at Court for their talents rather than family name and so a wider variety of people entered at least the middle ranks of noble status and the gentlemen around the King.

  8. Michael Wright says:

    Hi BQ. You’re absolutely right. Throughout history all over the world assassinations have been a common occurrence in order to remove someone in power so that someone else could wield that power. Not exactly humanity at it’s best.

  9. Michael Wright says:

    Thought you might all find this interesting. According to Axios who tracks these things, insurance claims in the United States due to damage caused by riots has reached 1 billion dollars. The highest in claims history.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Our actuary professional bodies such as Lloyds of London and ACAS do the same thing and the loss is always in several hundred millions or even billions because as you can imagine putting people back on their feet when homes are destroyed or an entire forest is staggering in expenses. My father was a loss adjuster for Maritime insurance and the loss of cargo and ships or damage in terms of money was always high. Unfortunately, insurance is also were the worst fraud takes place. Historically claims for cargo lost at sea could ruin a company which is why firms formed Lloyds to share the burden and underwrite the risk. The horrific part of claiming for cargo was that slaves were considered cargo and property. It was particularly horrible because the ship owners would off load or throw a number over board because they exceeded the capacity of the ship legally and they could claim for the loss of the cargo. This is what led to the Amistad mutiny and the trial proving that the slaves on board had been taken in British territory, where at that time slavery had been outlawed. Human traffic is of course evil but people found verses in Scripture to justify both slavery and oppose it. It was the trade which was the worst part because of the inhumane conditions on the ships and the cruelty. It makes me ill to think it is still happening, young girls and boys stolen from their homes and lured to work in posh homes or in the sex trade. Its brutal how people still behave even though its outlawed.

      In the eighteenth century the nobility behaved as if they could do no wrong, they brutalised servants, women, especially in brothels and the law protected them because they were the law. It was them who sat as magistrates or justices and who sat in Parliament and who owned the land. Land closures, common land enclosure that is and foot paths closed led to brutal punishment and in many cases hunger and injuries. If you struck a superior one might lose a hand or if you killed them, the death penalty was not hanging it was burning at the stake or quartering if you were a man. The nobles belonged to weird clubs like the Hell Fire Club as did most members of Parliament. You had to be male and own land to vote. As few people owned land that wasn’t many and intimidation was used to control voters. The word noble obviously didn’t mean someone who behaved in a gracious manner.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        When reading about American history I’ve come across similar accounts of the terrible things being done during the hey day of slavery in this country. I can’t think of anything bad enough to describe the idea of owning another human being.
        I had never heard of the Amistad incident until Spielberg’s movie came out. I couldn’t believe that something so important was not in any of the books I read or that I’d never seen a documentary about it. Thank you BQ.

        1. Banditqueen says:

          Hi Michael, it was vaguely heard about but really not well known before the film. I don’t think I have seen a documentary but have recently watched the film again after getting a book, not on the ship but the trial and the aftermath. When we think about the landmark changes this had in both American and British history and the consequences for the trade, its mind blowing that it wasn’t better known. One reason it might not be was that it took place in America whilst slavery was still legal there. A number of landmark legal trials took place to challenge ownership. A few were famous because they were successful and I recently found them while looking for a new book on the subject. I have also a book on Spartacus Toussaint Louverture the Black Napoleon who raised a violent rebellion in Hatti and freed the slaves. The subject is so wide and diverse that there are too many to choose from. I have a basket full of ones for the future. The Washingtons might have been a decent couple who inherited most of the slaves but they were not going to give up when one ran off. She was never caught and had a second family in one of the free states. The Gradual Emancipation Law had a hole in it. If you were there for six months then you could claim emancipation. But if you went out for a day you had to start again. The Washingtons took Martha home for a day and she had to start again. She did, then learned that they planned the same to stop her. At a grand dinner she snuck out of the back door and to a safe house. Her tale is in Never Caught. Andrew Burns won his right to freedom after a trial on ownership. Wasn’t there a slave who spied for and helped Washington called Fanny who won her freedom? A number earned freedom in the regiment they served in under Washington as well. He also had a second in command who was his slave but was freed called William. I am sorry but for some reason all the names are escaping me. I am being hounded by my energy company at the moment for money they have lost and not credited to my account. They seem to have gone into denial as its happened to hundreds of people who have trying to get answers but these email letters keep coming out every few days. You wouldn’t mind but the Team leader insisted that the payment was made and on the account and it clearly isn’t and I have proof. I have complained but its really worn me out. I have have ME and get exhausted very quickly. My doctor has put me on the anti depression treatment again for three months as I was not sleeping. I can’t concentrate. I’m going away next weekend for ten days and I have someone preparing a letter for the Ombudsman to get a deadlock letter and then they step in. Hopefully I’ll get some sense when I get back.

          Have you heard of our two escaped regicide men, Edward Whalley and William Goffe who were among the first people who signed the death warrant of Charles l? They escaped and had a number of wild adventures in Connecticut and were helped by a number of local Puritan communities in America. The English agents of Charles ii pursued them for years but had to give up in the end. Too many people agreed with their actions. I think they saw it as righteous and the Geneva Bible has notes which emphasis a number of verses to disobey the King or even dispose of them. The Declaration of Arbroath which is the Scottish Declaration of Independence which was also blessed by the Pope, says not only will they never bow to English tyranny but they will take up arms against any King who does. It gives the people the right to remove an unreasonable leader. The Book of Exodus was held by people who fought for freedom and liberty against tyranny for centuries once it was released in English. The King James was a benchmark for justice and freedom. In other words a King or leader is a very fine thing but they still have to do what is right for the people. Our leaders may swear themselves in on the Bible but I really don’t think many of them actually read it. They might get a shock.

  10. Michael Wright says:

    Most of what you mentioned I was not aware of. It wouldn’t surprise me if Washington had a slave who worked as I spy but the name Fanny is not familiar. I also was not aware of the two gentleman who signed the death warrent.

    Going back to Amistad, you are probably aware that Spielberg had not heard of it either, it was brought to his attention by Debbie Allen who was also a producer on the film.

    What is happening to customer service? My friend in Western NY ordered a couple of items from two different companies and they had both been shipped by the 10th of this month. FedEx was supposed to deliver them after receiving them from USPS. The last tracking was 9/12. Neither USPS or FedEx now where they are. They’re coming from Eastern Pennsylvania which is literally just across the border from Buffalo where she lives. It seems that since no one sees your face you can be ignored. It sounds like the type of thing that you’re dealing with. Good luck with getting that mess straightened out. Utility companies are a pain.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Thanks, yes I had something once banush into the land of “we don’t know where it is or what happened to it”. The parcel was coming from Southport which is 40 minutes by train. Its part of Merseyside. You go for an afternoon walk on the prom or the Victorian shops. I could have collected the parcel had I known it was going to vanish into “thin air” another mysterious world things get lost in. I bet customer service know exactly what they have done wrong, they just won’t admit it. The problem with the utility companies is that they can cut you off. It’s highly unlikely but as nobody is actually working in the office, the process is not going to be stopped and a lot of people have complained on social media, including me. The watchdog has no teeth and doesn’t get onto them and of course Covid is the excuse of the day. They claim to be working normally but they obviously can’t cope with the volume of complaints and have buried their heads in the sand like an ostrich. I have had enough of them and will be filing a legal claim when we get home from our holidays. Just one more week to go. Arnside or bust.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Another problem with utilities is unlike other businesses if you are dissatisfied you can go to a competitor, your stuck with them. I do hope all the bad press smacks some sense into them. The fact that it’s so many customers should prove the problem is at their end.

        1. Michael Wright says:

          Should read ‘can’t go to a competitor’.

        2. Banditqueen says:

          Hi Michael, in the U. K we can switch if our fixed rate period is up and you owe less than £500.00 and even then as long as you make an arrangement you can switch. My twelve months is up today but according to the estimated billing which is not correct I owe more than £500.00. I have complained because the amount is not credited to my account of £330.00 plus an adjustment of £65.00 and a credit of £35.00. I have screenshot of the account and bank statement and they admitted that the Payment was made but its still not credited after another two weeks. Now they are still ignoring me and the automated email still popped out. They have billed some poor gentleman 16 months after his wife died of cancer and they closed his account. They are in a mess. They have taken on too many people last year and are too small. They should not be sending debt letters to anyone. The problem is definitely at their end. Some people think they are going out of business. I would not be surprised. I am going to switch in any case but I want this sorted out. I have had an email from the CAB who help with this sort of thing and they have asked me to contact them and they will help so I will do that ASAP. I can’t wait to get away next week.

          My mum is 92 and her TV died last week so we have a new one being delivered today. Trying to get her out before we go away. She complains about being in and then won’t go. I really don’t know. Oh well.

  11. Michael Wright says:

    Hi BQ. Here in the US whoever services your area is it, no choices.
    If you’ve got screenshots of this I’m guessing others do too. I just don’t see how the company has a leg to stand on to defend their actions.

  12. Banditqueen says:

    Neither do I, they are in big trouble and they really need to admit it. They will have to defend themselves in court or forfeit and I can get a default judgement against them. I will be filing on my return home. The entire thing is a mess. Years ago we were nationalised so British Gas ran everywhere for utilities and Man Web for electricity. Water is still whoever is in the area. I am seriously thinking of going back to British Gas, better service even though it might be more expensive. These so called clean energy companies need to clean up their act and we need a revolution. Power to the people. In 1381 the people of Kent and Sussex had the right idea. The people had the right idea in 1789 in France as well.

    1. Michael Wright says:

      We have clean energy options here in Oregon but because the cost is souch higher few people are opting in which has caused some problems.

    2. Hans van Felius says:

      oh dear, 1789? Are you planning to call in Mme Guillotine?

      1. Banditqueen says:

        Only for the heads of utility companies lol; if you will excuse the pun. I am not planning a mass extinction of the nobles, not when they can be put to some useful work. Up the Revolution.

    3. Christine says:

      What annoys me are these companies that somehow acquire your number and start of the conversation with ‘can I ask you a few questions as part of a survey‘, your age sex etc, a load of other personal questions, then towards the end they ask you what energy company your with, it’s all to try to get you to switch your energy over to them, I just hang up now, there’s also people in my local town standing around asking you what energy supplier your with, they say they’ll only take five minutes and it goes on for fifteen, one day it was rainy cold and miserable and I said to one guy, ‘people do not want to stand in the street on a rainy cold day answering questions about their energy supplier‘, there’s some group that are always up there most folk just rush past and ignore them, you are right Bq, British Gas is expensive but less hassle, I hope you get it sorted, you have a lovely holiday to look forward to, more covid restrictions appear to be on the way but it was inevitable really.

  13. Banditqueen says:

    Thanks Christine, yes, next weekend I am off. The restrictions hit Merseyside on Tuesday but to be honest the only real difference is the pubs have to close early and you can’t mingle outside your bubble or household which is all we do anyway. You can still travel in your bubble or household and that’s fine. There are no restrictions in Arnside beyond the normal ones so I will be like the nobility escaping to my country retreat. Its really odd, but we don’t have symptoms and are not in quarrentine and the social distance rules apply everywhere as do face coverings. The pubs closing early in the football capital of the world should be a good laugh. This I have got to see. I hope everyone keeps to the rules and helps to stop the virus. I have avoided busy places and stayed pretty much out of the way of people. Arnside is pretty quiet so it will be a nice relaxing time.

    1. Christine says:

      That’s good and hopefully the weather will stay fine.

      1. Hans van Felius says:

        Banditqueen, I hope you have a nice stay!

        1. Banditqueen says:

          Thanks Hans, looking forward to it. Plenty of countryside, the beach, walks and history and we are always well looked after at the Willowfield. The village has managed to survive Covid and all the little cafes are still there and open. The two pubs are still open and it’s as if time never moves there. Plenty of history as well and local gardens and woodland to explore and abbeys. Five days to go.

        2. Banditqueen says:

          I was dreaming about this post last night. Its odd what stuff stays in the mind. I don’t know about many other countries but here from the eighteenth century onwards and probably before but on a bigger scale then, in order to get a Bill through the upper house, that’s the House of Lords the King or Queen just made a lot of new peers in the Tory or Whig party and told them to vote for their law. For example Queen Anne needed more Tories to vote to end the war with France and although they were amenable because war meant a tax on land, she needed to be certain that they were definitely going to be on her side so she created 20 new ones. This practice has led to hundreds of people from ordinary life, well owners of middle class land or homes or shops being made peers of the realm. Also today we have a system called the Birthday honours and New Years list which rewards ordinary people from sport and politics and entertainment and the community with a knighthood, an honour called a Citizen of the British Empire or Order British Empire, a Dame or even a peership. Most are life peers so that the title cannot be passed on. It’s to honour those who have served others rather than themselves. I don’t know how many peers we have but if we go to BURKS peerage that tells you all of them and if you have an ancient history in the family you will find the peer in the family there as well. By the way you can actually purchase a title and change your name but of course it has to be not in the gift of the Queen or a inherited line. You can also buy a family coat of arms. The collage of arms can help you with your arms because there are strict rules on what you can have and you may already have one. They can also verify your claim to one. You can claim to be a gentleman or gentle woman and gain certain benefits. William Shakespeare claimed to be a gentleman on behalf of his father, John. You had to dress a certain way, the type of material you wore was restricted by law and you were expected to be able to support a certain lifestyle and income. Mind you that was probably in case the Queen popped in for a few days.

          I really can’t imagine that sort of prancing about but I certainly would not say no to the money.

        3. Banditqueen says:

          Off tomorrow, weekend and next few days going to be fine weather.

  14. Michael Wright says:

    Hi all. Just wanted to say that we’ve had quite a bit of rain over the last couple of days and the smoke has cleared out. Highs in the mid 60’s. Much nicer.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Thank goodness for that, it must have felt like it was never going to end. Take care.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        You too. Have a safe and fun trip.

    2. Christine says:

      That’s good news Michael, here in north London the weathers been quite chilly, our heatwave has left us and it’s been very windy today, Bq hope you have a lovely holiday and the weathers fine for you.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Glad your heat wave is over. I would much rather have it cool than hot. I can easily warm up if I’m cold but cooling down is another matter. It’s 3pm, rainy and 59°. We’re supposed to get into the 70’s over the next few days but nothing too warm.

        1. Christine says:

          Yes the early seventies I find is an acceptable heat, I know what you mean it is much easier to warm up than cool down, too much heat is unbearable, iv just put my heating on was feeling rather chilly.

  15. Michael Wright says:

    I just opened my bedroom window to get it cool. Ideally at least 65 but anythimg under 70 is good.

  16. Banditqueen says:

    Hi, just an update. Going to Piel Island tomorrow where Lambert Simnel landed in 1487 from Ireland with his Irish and Flanders army.

    He had been crowned Edward V or Vi, the York Books is our only source and it does not say which. A i was added later to the V. In his letter to the people of York the boy King didn’t use any numbers but described himself as King Edward. John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln led the army which was defeated in June that year in Staffordshire at East Stoke. He had a good claim to the crown himself, his father being married to Princess Elizabeth, sister of Edward iv and Richard iii. The family had attended Richard iii coronation and John took a leading part but the Duke of Suffolk as his father was submitted to the rule of Henry Tudor. It was the aim originally to free the real Earl of Warwick, son of George, Duke of Clarence and set him up as King and for Francis Lovell a devoted friend of King Richard to assassinate Henry in York. This went wrong and Lovell vanished into the mists of history and myth. He was wounded and went to his home but nothing more was ever heard from him. He had a secret basement room which was found bricked up in the eighteenth century. A skeleton of a man, fully clothed at his writing desk was found and it was assumed to be the lost injured Francis Lovell having died whilst in hiding. His mother and wife were still being questioned by the King and his agents years later as to the wearabouts of Lovell who was considered highly dangerous by the paranoid Tudor regime.

    It’s also believed by many people today that the official version of the plots and conspiracy of 1486/7 is a load of nonsense. Andre himself in Henry’s biography gives hints of confusion about the real identity of the individual who was meant to replace Henry Tudor. I believe with others that John de la Pole abandoned the idea of putting Warwick on the throne very early on and used this as arouse. The Dublin King, crowded in Dublin Cathedral was clearly more than ten years old, possibly sixteen, the same age that Edward V would have been. The boy found on the battlefield was merely ten or twelve, the same age as Warwick but Warwick was still in the Tower. I think John de la Pole used the boy Lambert as a puppet, he was left on the battle field, but the leader was de la Pole. He was killed nut his intentions are unknown. A real scenario exists in which he intended to be the next King and replace Henry himself. He never gave his true intentions away because of his father who remained loyal to King Henry. The Duke of Suffolk and Elizabeth the Duchess remained in favour. Lincoln led the army and recruited the boy. I believe Lambert was a ruse and he was not the real pretender. Lincoln was intending to take the crown. The boy was left in order to fool the Tudor regime whose version was that he was pretending to the Earl of Warwick and the real Warwick was in the Tower. The boy was shown mercy and put to work in the Royal kitchens.

    Piel Island has a castle built by the Abbots of Furness Abbey where Lambert and his party were entertained and there is a pub with a chair on which the boy was said to be crowned. Here a new landlord is crowned and you can sit there and be King for the Day but you have to buy everyone a round. You can still have a photo taken. So we are going to the Abbey, one of the most important religious houses in the North of England and one of the last to be closed. The handover was peaceful. We hope the ferry is running and over to the island and then to the castle.

    We went to the original home of the ancestors of George Washington today at Warton but the Church was closed so we are going back on Wednesday. Honestly everyone is obsessed with the App. We have not downloaded it and nor will we be. We are just leaving our details if asked. The village is a bit changed but more or less the same. We have been coming now for 21 years on and off, several times a year in the old days. The estuary is very calm and there has been a lot of bird life today on the sands. The Willowfield is closing after 70 years as a BB to be a private home again at the end of October so if we come again we will have to stay at the pub instead or the holiday flat next-door. An alternative is the Malden Duck in Cartmel were we have had lunch a few times and looks beautiful. Cartmel has a Church which was part of the Abbey, where ten people were killed by Cromwell and his regimes and yet the local people brought the Abbey to save the Church. The fourteenth century gate is still there and the free lances, the Steel Bonnets used to raid the town from the borders of Scotland which was much further down back then. We will visit them later in the week.

    Saturday and Sunday were beautiful days, today was fine until late afternoon but tomorrow is going to be beautiful again and the rest of the week locally looks good. I am blogging from the lounge. Take care and stay safe.

    1. Michael Wright says:

      Sounds like your having a good rest. Enjoyed the history. If you get a chance please give us a report on your visit to Piel Island. Thanks BQ.

      1. Banditqueen says:

        Certainly will. Take care.

        1. Christine says:

          Glad your having nice weather, we are having the odd shower but on Monday the weather was beautiful about 18 degrees and clear blue sky’s, was hoping to hear from you, the discovery of Francis Lovell’s remains sounds grim, it must be every time human remains are found, but for historical figures – very fascinating! thank you for sharing your journeys with us Bq, enjoy the rest of your holiday and keep us updated.

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