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Richard III
August 30, 2012
12:51 am
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Boleyn
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Ok just to throw a spanner in the old proverbial I found this article in the Daily Mail.

Legend has it that he was murdered alongside his royal brother in the Tower of London.
But according to a fascinating new theory, the young Prince Richard escaped the walls of his prison.
And he ended up building walls himself…as a bricklayer in Essex.
The mystery of what happened to the Princes in the Tower is one of the most enduring in English history.

The Murder of the Princes in the Tower, 1483 By English School
In 1483 following the death of their father, Edward IV, the boys, aged 12 and nine, were locked in the Tower and never seen again.
Their uncle, Richard III, is widely blamed for killing the boys after persuading Parliament to declare them illegitimate and assuming the throne.
In 1674, almost 200 years later, two skeletons were discovered under some stairs in the tower. No one has been able to establish whether these really were the princes’ remains.
University of Leicester historian David Baldwin has cast new light on the mystery.
In his book, The Lost Prince: The Survival of Richard of York, Mr Baldwin maintains the betrayal by Richard III is not supported by the evidence.
He believes that Edward V, the elder prince, died of natural causes, while Richard, the younger prince, was eventually reunited with his mother, Queen Elizabeth Woodville, and allowed to live with her under the supervision of two trusted courtiers.
The prince was later moved to Lutterworth in Leicestershire and taken to Bosworth Field the day before the battle.
King Richard may have considered naming the boy his heir, says the historian. But his defeat and death changed everything.
Mr Baldwin suggests that Prince Richard was taken to St John’s Abbey at Colchester after the battle-of Bosworth and worked there as a bricklayer until the Dissolution of 1539.
He said: “Was he the ‘Richard Plantagenet’ who died at Eastwell, in Kent, in December 1550, and who, unusually for a bricklayer, could read Latin?
“He told his new employer that he was a natural son of Richard III – but what if he was really the ‘Lost Prince’?”
Most commentators assume that no one knew what had become of the two young princes. But Mr Baldwin argues that many people – kings, royal confidants, the boys’ sisters and former household officers – did know but chose to say nothing about it.
He added: “Dead princes were a potential embarrassment but a live prince would have been a real danger and a closely guarded secret.
“Richard survived when others with a Yorkist claim to the throne perished because he was out of sight and perhaps, eventually, out of mind also.
“Eastwell, where he died, is only 12 miles from Canterbury Cathedral where his portrait still adorns the ‘royal’ window of the Martyrdom Chapel.
“I wonder, did an elderly bricklayer ever pause to look into the face of his own image – an image from another life – on the occasions when he visited the greater church?”

Now bear in mind this is nowt to do with me. I didn’t write it that’s obvisous as the puncuation is all correct for a start and my puncuation can be a bloody shambles sometimes.. Anyway I found it interesting and it certainly does add yet another twist to the Prince’s mystery..
Although it was said this lad told his employer he was the natural son of Richard 3rd why would he say that I wonder? Everyone knew Richard’s son was a sickly welp so surely when Edward died wouldn’t they go looking for this lad who claimed he was the natural son of Richard 3rd?
Who knows? but you must admit it’s an interesting theory..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 30, 2012
4:34 am
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Olga
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Oh I’ve got that book second hand somewhere, I haven’t read it yet. PG is big on Baldwin, I’ve got a few on my wishlist from her latest bibliographies.
He’s already done a bio on Elizabeth of Woodville, another book called the Kingmaker’s Sisters (not sure who they are) and The Women of the Cousin’s War on Jacquetta Rivers, Margaret Beaufort and Elizabeth Woodville.
As a historian I don’t know, haven’t read any yet, but he seems fairly specialised which I always like in a historian. The ones who write books on twelve different people worry me

August 30, 2012
12:36 pm
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Boleyn
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Warwick the Kingmaker had 6 sisters, all of whom made prestigious marriages. Alice Neville married Henry Fitzhugh 5th Baron of Fitzhugh, and her great grandaughter was non other than Katherine Parr.
Here are a list of Warwick’s sisters..

Cecily Neville (1424–1450), who married Henry de Beauchamp, 1st Duke of Warwick, had one daughter, Anne Beauchamp, 15th Countess of Warwick. On her death, her title passed to her paternal aunt Lady Anne, wife of her maternal uncle, Richard Neville.

Joan Neville (1434–1462), who married William FitzAlan, 16th Earl of Arundel and had issue.

Katherine Neville (1442–1503), who married first William Bonville, 6th Baron Harington, and second William Hastings, 1st Baron Hastings, had issue.

Eleanor Neville (1447–1482), who married Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of Derby and had issue.

Alice Neville (c.1450–1503), who married Henry FitzHugh, 5th Baron FitzHugh. Their daughter, Elizabeth, married William Parr, 1st Baron Parr of Kendal, thus making them great-grandparents of Queen consort Catherine Parr.

Margaret Neville (c.1450–1506), who married John de Vere, 13th Earl of Oxford.

Hope they will be of some help to you..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 30, 2012
2:07 pm
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Olga
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Thanks Bo 🙂 Another for my list. I’m just collecting random books on the War of the Roses at the moment because I want to keep my head clear on the Tudor history I’m reading. If I start reading about the War of the Roses I will be all over the place.
I remember reading about Cecily Neville in one of the Cousins War (fiction by PG) books.

Back to Richard, he had another illegitimate son, John, and a daughter Katherine. Both were recognised and he made a good marriage for Katherine. both were conceived before he married so I think that it was more acceptable for him to recognise them as they weren’t a result of adultery.
I don’t know anything about them really, Weir had them in her latest fiction book. John was executed, but I don’t know how accurate Weir was with that book so I’m not sure why. Katherine may have died young, she just disappears off the grid at some point. There’s a little more information about his children here, this is all I could find after I finished her book
http://www.richardiii.net/r3_d…..ildren.htm

September 1, 2012
4:27 pm
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Boleyn
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If any of you get a chance to watch a DVD called The Princes in the Tower please do. It came out in 2005 and is very good, and certainly put a different slant of the Warbeck pretence.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 1, 2012
11:49 pm
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DuchessofBrittany
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Olga said

Thanks Bo 🙂 Another for my list. I’m just collecting random books on the War of the Roses at the moment because I want to keep my head clear on the Tudor history I’m reading. If I start reading about the War of the Roses I will be all over the place.
I remember reading about Cecily Neville in one of the Cousins War (fiction by PG) books.

Back to Richard, he had another illegitimate son, John, and a daughter Katherine. Both were recognised and he made a good marriage for Katherine. both were conceived before he married so I think that it was more acceptable for him to recognise them as they weren’t a result of adultery.
I don’t know anything about them really, Weir had them in her latest fiction book. John was executed, but I don’t know how accurate Weir was with that book so I’m not sure why. Katherine may have died young, she just disappears off the grid at some point. There’s a little more information about his children here, this is all I could find after I finished her book
http://www.richardiii.net/r3_d…..ildren.htm

Olga,

Anne Easter Smith wrote a great historical fiction book about Richard III, which includes his illegitimate children. The title is “A Rose for the Crown.” It is one of the better historical fictions I’ve read. Actually, she written 4 or 5 books about the Yorkists. They could be worth a look, even if fictional.

I also bought (but never got around to reading) a book on Richard III by Peter Hancock titled “Richard III an dthe murder in the Tower.” It looks at the murder of William, Lord Hastings.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

September 2, 2012
1:22 am
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Olga
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You people are not good for my book addiction Laugh Thanks Duchess, they sound good. I’ve been really enjoying the Cousins War books (much more than her Tudor books) and I could use some good historical fiction

September 3, 2012
7:32 pm
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Sharon
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I loved the Anne Easter-Smith books. I have read all of them. They are all well worth reading.

September 11, 2012
10:12 am
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Louise
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If Richard III really is buried under a council car park, and has been there all this time without a ticket, I dread to think how much the fine will be! If they do find his remains, what does everyone think they’ll be taken away in? I’m opting for a tow truck.Smile

September 11, 2012
10:59 am
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Boleyn
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Louise said

If Richard III really is buried under a council car park, and has been there all this time without a ticket, I dread to think how much the fine will be! If they do find his remains, what does everyone think they’ll be taken away in? I’m opting for a tow truck.Smile

LOL I wonder if Richard has had all 4 limps clamped as well. I hate to think how many Groats or Duckets that will cost in fines.. I guess the only option will be to impound what’s left and if his relatives don’t cough up the Groats and Duckets in a month he’ll go in the crusher.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 11, 2012
2:55 pm
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Olga
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Laugh

They’re actually making a lot of progress with it, I’m getting a bit hopeful they might find something now.

September 11, 2012
3:08 pm
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Janet
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Olga…where can I find info about the digging they’re doing?

September 11, 2012
3:14 pm
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Louise
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Janet said

Olga…where can I find info about the digging they’re doing?

Janet, just contact the council offices. If they’ve issued a parking ticket in the name of Richard Third, you know they’ve found him!

September 11, 2012
3:26 pm
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Janet
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OK. I was kind of hoping there might be a newspaper or magazine article. I’m in Canada and not sure about how to contact council offices…or even what that is.Laugh

September 11, 2012
3:34 pm
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Louise
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Joking aside, if you just google ‘Richard III dig’ then the latest news from the BBC comes up.

September 11, 2012
4:02 pm
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Janet
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Thanks. I should have thought of that myself. Smile

If they do find human remains, who do they ask for permission to do DNA testing, if that’s what the next step would be. If it did turn out to be Richard, what happens to the remains then? Just questions popping into my rather vacant mind this morning.Wink

September 12, 2012
1:55 am
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Gill
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I think ancient remains dug up in a carpark and not yet confirmed to be royal would not need special permission for DNA tests. It’s not like digging up Westminster Abbey! Wink I don’t know what they would do with his remains though…perhaps bury him with his wife in WA? Perhaps they will give him a proper memorial – whatever some people think of him, he WAS king of England.

September 12, 2012
2:32 am
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Janet
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Yes, he was a king. That’s what made me wonder. I would hope they don’t just turf his bones back and repave the car park over him. Wink

September 12, 2012
8:58 am
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Neil Kemp
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Human remains have now been found on the site and are being sent for DNA testing, as reported on BBC radio this morning. Further news on the find is being released at 1100 BST today, although the absence of a thermos flask, box of sandwiches, or a uniform with a NCP logo anywhere near the remains is thought to be a hopeful sign.Wink

September 12, 2012
9:50 am
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Gill
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I’m ridiculously excited about this!

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