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Richard III
November 26, 2013
5:52 pm
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Jasmine
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Boleyn said

It strikes me at least that the R3 sociaty are doing there upmost to spoil what is without doubt the biggest find since the Princes (if the bones found were the Princes) R3 memory shouldn’t be tarnished by by a stupid arguement like 2 dogs arguing over a bone (pardon the pun) R3 deserves to remembered as he truly was a KIng of England, who faught and died for his country and his people..

Why do you assume that this mess is the result of actions of the Richard III Society? It is not. The Ministry of Justice granted the licence to the University of Leicester who decided burial should be in Leicester Cathedral. A group of people who previously had not been involved at any stage with the search for Richard formed the Plantagenet Alliance because they wanted him buried in York. They started the legal challenge. The Richard III Society has remained completely neutral in the argument as they have to work with whichever place is chosen.

Now the decision has been further delayed because the Plantagenet Alliance’s QC decided to add the City of Leicester to a list of defendants, and as their lawyers had not been told of this, they need time to put their legal case together.

November 26, 2013
7:30 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Jasmine I knew I’d messed up somewhere, Trouble is the R3 sociaty is the first thought that entered my head.. My bad sorry.. You can slap my wrists for that one..Actually I thought the original idea was to leave it to the reletives to decide where he was to be buried? I’m sure I read that somewhere when the story first came out that attempts were being made to find R3’s bones
Either way this arguement shouldn’t be happening, as it does tend to sully R3 memory somehow. Well at least I think it does.
When exactly was this so called Plantagenet Sociaty formed anyway? Personally I think it’s a little steep, well almost verical of them to claim R3’s bones when as you say they have done nothing in helping the R3 sociaty, in doing all the donkey work etc.. I call those people shisters, reaping the benefits and claiming the glory of someone elses hard work…. Turns my stomach a bit thinking about it..
Technically the Queen could step in here, as I worked it out that R3 is her 14 times great grand uncle. This Michael Ibsen is decended via one of R3 sisters isn’t he? so if my maths is right it makes Lizzy closer in relation to R3 than Michael.. Knowing me I’m wrong I usually am…but even if I am wrong, Old Liz here can put her oar in a lot better than a hastely made up sociaty, and make her view know, and as such I believe her word is more or less a rubber stamp signed a sealed job.
Actually I have to ask why is the arguement about burial in Leicester.. Yes I know the Bosworth field lot etc, but he didn’t do anything else there other than go and try to kick Henry Tulip’s arse to Kingdom Come. At least if he was buried in York it would make sence as he did (loosely worded) govern York.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 26, 2013
8:12 pm
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Bob the Builder
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its worth reading Haddon-Caves’ judgement from August 2013 – its illuminating.

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Re…..dgment.pdf

he is pretty excoriating about the behaviour of the university and the Justice department – this is absolutely not just a bunch of loonys weeing on the pavement, H-C makes clear that both have ignored their own rules, and done so deliberately.

Joshua Rosenberg, the BBC’s Legal editor, has a good peice in the Guardian on the issue, and its clear that the Justice Department is playing silly buggers over this in order to promote its policy of reducing the number of Judicial reviews the government is subjected to.

http://www.theguardian.com/law…..ing-appeal

November 27, 2013
1:25 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

<but R3 wasn’t just some jumped up tin pot napoleon, he was a King crowned and anoited, in Westminster Abbey his family are buried in Westminster abbey.. Save for George and his missus, they are in Tewksbury… But again there is the Answer, George was buried with his wife in Tewksbury, although he was executed in the Tower. Doesn’t R3 deserve to be buried with his wife too?, not to mention his brother etc… Certainly he should be given a memorial honour in Leicester, as is only right. Perhaps in the form of a small Cenotaph, the same with York Minster, but I also agree that York Minster is suitable for his bones to buried there.

According to theWestminser Abbey website lack of space meant that royal funerals stopped in 1760. Though if they decided to inter R#3’s bones with his wife, I can’t see space being a problem unless it was space for a memorial stone.

Fotheringhay would be another suitable place since it already holds the graves of Richard’s parents as well as his brother Edmund.

It's always bunnies.

November 27, 2013
7:12 am
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Jasmine
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The problem is that although Anne Neville was buried in Westminster Abbey, her coffin has been ‘lost’. I understand there are thousands of people buried under the Abbey and stuff has been shifted about so much, that she has been put somewhere and that location is currently unknown.

There is a lot of emotional attachment to York as a reburial place for Richard – he was well loved in the city which in its records AFTER Bosworth and under the reign of an unknown king, recorded ‘…our good King Richard late mercifully reigning over us was…piteously slain and murdered to the great heaviness of this city….’ which in my book, was a very brave thing to do.

However, be that as it may, York and/or Yorkshire made no effort to find Richard and the Plantagenet Alliance certainly didn’t exist before his bones were found, so had no involvement in the Search for Richard III Project which was mainly down to the efforts of Philippa Langley who managed to get the University of Leicester and Leicester City Council to undertake the archaeological dig. It could be regarded, therefore, that as Leicester authorities were the people who granted permission for the dig on Council property, and the local university provided the expertise to excavate the remains and establish their identity, they should have the ‘reward’ of having the king reinterred in their Cathedral.

Unfortunately, a lot of emotional clap-trap has arisen around this issue – many of those who support a York burial say they ‘know’ Richard would have wanted to be buried there (in which case why bury his wife in Westminster Abbey – why not send her to York?). The fact is that Richard’s will is missing and there is absolutely no written evidence currently existing which indicates where he wished to be buried.

I would argue that had he remained the king’s Viceroy in the North, then it is more than likely he would have been buried there, but once he became king, that option was no longer possible and that had he lived a normal life span he would probably have been buried in Westminster or perhaps at St George’s Windsor.

November 27, 2013
8:20 am
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Bob the Builder
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Jasmine – agreed: the whole thing is a mess, and even if regional partisanship, communing-with-the-dead lunatics, and the lure of filthy lucre could be removed from the question, there would still be a good number of places with a good claim, and no real pointers from our dearly departed brother.

i personally think that Leicester does have a good claim – not only is it broadly within the current best practice, but that even before the dig was seriously pushed by Langley, it had a number of Richard III memorials, a road named for him etc..: as York can rightly claim to have mourned him when it was politically dangerous to do so, Leicester mourned him when no one else was interested and the Leicester wasn’t exactly on the tourist trail.

that said, the revalations about Leicesters behaviour – the emails etc.. outlined by Haddon Cave in his judgement, do somewhat take the shine off its claim.

November 27, 2013
11:18 am
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Boleyn
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It seems to me at least, the whole glory (for want of a better word) has been turned into a childish game of my dad is better than your dad..
To me at least Leicester is out for burial, he died there yes, but he didn’t do anything else there..
Ideally Westminster Abbey would be the better option but as Jasmine says no one actually knows where Anne Neville’s coffin has been placed, and as Anyanka rightly points out space is limited.
York is perhaps the better option in this case. Leicester, could have a memorial plate in the Abbey to state that R3 was found blah blah.. Ditto with Westminster Abbey. I hadn’t thought of Fotheringay, but is it a contender?
It sounds daft to say this but I think the children arguing over R3’s bones should be apsolutely asshamed of themselves. They need their heads banging together seriously. They have turned a epic moment in British history into a laughable farce. The rest of the world must be looking at this and thinking, just goes to prove what a bunch of morons the British all are when they argue over a pile of bones. (This is just an opinion)
R3 deserves respect not ridicule..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 31, 2013
2:45 am
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Anyanka
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Richard III archeologist gets OBE in New Year’s Honours list

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-e…..e-25550983

It's always bunnies.

January 2, 2014
9:42 am
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Olga
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Now the council has decided it’s no longer the custodian of the bones. I read a statement over at Lost in Castles which said apparently Philippa Langley was supposed to be custodian of the remains as part of the initial agreement but then university weren’t taking the whole thing too seriously to begin with. They sure got those new t-shirts out quickly when they confirmed it was RichardLaugh

http://www.leicestermercury.co…..story.html

I think he will probably stay in Leicester. If I were to think of anywhere else it would be Fotheringay though. I actually don’t get the whole York Minster thing, I kept seeing people saying he should be buried there. When I looked at who was buried there I found Harry Hotspur. You may as we’ll pop him next to Stanley or Margaret Beaufort.

January 2, 2014
10:17 am
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Jasmine
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As I said earlier, there is a lot of emotional stuff which has led to some wild and generally unpleasant stuff on the Internet. Who knows how long it will take to be resolved. Without the legal challenge, things were on course for a Spring reburial this year, but as the case will not be before the court until mid-March, there is no end in sight.

Philippa Langley and the University team had some sort of agreement, but it is clear that neither party had the legal right to make such an agreement.

January 2, 2014
12:41 pm
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Boleyn
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I thought it was all but decided that R3 family were going to have the final say on it? Whatever happens to R3 remains, for me at least the arguement about where he should be buried has sullied what was the greatest find since the Princes (if the bones are the princes)
No matter what people think personally about R3, he was a King who was only doing what he thought was right, for the people and for England when he took the throne.
York Minster does at least seem feasable as he did practically rule that area when he was alive.
Fotheringhay? well there is nothing left of the castle dave for the mound and a plague which says it was there etc, so no I think it would be unrealistic to bury him there.
Leicester, well, he did die there, but he didn’t do anything from there. If my lousy memory serves R3 was the last British King to die in battle, so I think they should at least try and find a little bit of room in Westminster abbey, surely they could find a space somewhere?
Oh well guess we will just have to wait until they have stopped behaving like children and reason things out in an adult manner.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 3, 2014
12:53 am
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Olga
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The church in Fotheringay, Bo, St Mary’s. As Anyanka said both his parents and his brother Edmund are buried there, and the 2nd Duke of York is also buried there.
I wouldn’t call the Plantagenet Alliance his “family” that’s a bit of a stretch. They certainly weren’t around before he was actually found. There is nothing wrong with him staying in Leicester. The people who actually worked to find him (that is the Looking for Richard team) are happy for him to stay in Leicester. He was there for a couple of hundred years without any of his descendants complaining about it. At least he will have a proper memorial, poor old Wolsey is under a park or garden somewhere in Leicester.

January 3, 2014
12:00 pm
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Boleyn
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I think you are right Olga. Why not leave him where he was found, well not literely but you know what I mean. It seems as if the whole reason to why he was found has been forgotton and decended into an arguement about where a pile of old bones should be buried. I hope tha makes sence.
As you rightly say he had lay in a car park for hundreds of years quite happily so what does it matter where he should be reinterred, the fact is that he will be given the due honour he deserves.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 24, 2014
8:26 am
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Boleyn
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Well the big arguement is over. Richard is going to be interred in Leicester. It’s the right decision. Fotheringay, was a nice idea, seeing as his mum and dad are buried there, but to be honest since niether George or Edward are buried there it would seem very odd to inter him there.
George is buried at Tewkesbury Abbey, with his wife. In fact if my lousy memory serves their bones (alledgely) are now housed in a box on the wall, as the Abbey vaults can be turned into a macabre indoor swimming pool when the Avon bursts it’s banks.
I think Richard would have approved of his final resting place. R.I.P me old China.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 26, 2014
6:17 pm
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Olga
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Ah I wish the fighting was over Bo. There are people trying to kill each other all over the internet and I have a big fat headache.
Anyway Channel 4 has some new docos coming out and they will be filming the reinterment live, so he’ll be getting a bit of a modern royal procession won’t he?
George and Isabel were buried at Tewkesbury. The remains have been meddled with over the centuries, first the vault got damp and the coffins rotted, then the lead was pinched, then another family decided to move into the vault – from what I recall. John Ashdown-Hill’s book on George covers it in a lot of detail. There may be some fragments left as not all of the bones match but there is no way of testing. I think it is really sad to be honest.

May 27, 2014
9:21 am
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Boleyn
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It all seems so petty to me Olga, the greatest find since the Princes remains were found (If indeed the bones found were the Princes?) has decended into a childish schoolyard squabble. I sometimes think was it worth all the time and effort to even bother finding and unearthing Richard’s bones in the first place. That perhaps it was better to leave the bones where they were, in short some things are not meant to be known.
Although that Phillipa woman got on my nerves, with her blubbering etc, I understand exactly why she was so emotional.
She was the one who worked tirelessly (along with the rest of the R3 sociaty) to actually find the R3. So actually proving to all and sundry that her research and hard work was right when they found R3’s remains, was a great big blow to all those who had told she was talking rubbish.
When exactly was this Plantagenet sociaty formed? I’m guessing (although I’m probably wrong in which case apoligies in advance)after R3’s remains were found.
Personally I think if these children can’t play with their toys together nicely they should have their toys taken away from them, and be made to go and sit on the naughty step until they can learn to behave and act their ages not their shoe(UK) sizes.

Yes you are right about the bones in Tewksbury Abbey, the bones they have, could belong to anyone in that vault. H6 Son is buried there too, so I think it’s safe to assume that what they have bone wise is a dolly mixture of bones, and given the amount of times before the bones were rescued(loosely worded) any DNA that might have been extracted (Mitacondrial wise) would clearly be so contaminated nothing could be proved who they were in the first place. As yo rightly say it is sad, terribly so. It would have been very interesting to actually find out what George, Isabel, and the Prince Edward (H6 Son) looked like.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 31, 2014
3:16 am
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Olga
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Yes it was after Richard’s remains were found – eight months as far as I am aware. I can’t say they were not ‘involved’ in the search individually as a lot of members of the R3 Society donated money for the dig, but as a group they were not.

Well they have published the first report on Richard’s scoliosis (about time too). Apparently we’re supposed to be surprised he was not a hunchback Confused According to the commercial media anyway. The full report is here

http://press.thelancet.com/ric…..liosis.pdf

May 31, 2014
11:37 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you Olga. Found it very interesting.

I always suspected that Richard wasn’t as deformed as was painted so to speak. Basically because of the fact that if was as crippled (loosely worded) as the Tudor propergandists had described there is no way IMO that he could have done all he did, fighting wise. Riding a horse I would have thought would have been quite difficult, not impossible but I would have thought his balance would have been very impaired, and with the continued jolting of his body as the horse trotted or galloped along may have been quite painful too.
Having had my appetite wetted since the R3 sociaty made a concerted effort to find Richard I’ve been doing a little bit of reading up on him, and he really was a remarkable man.

I think if he had suceeded in defeating H.T at Bosworth he would have been a very formidable King. I kind of have him down as a H1(Beauclerk) sort of man. A firm but fair ruler, I don’t think his court would be as merry as E4’s but I don’t think it would be too dull either, probably a muted sort of enjoyment. He would have chosen councillors who would serve, him, the country and it’s people first, before themselves. He would have built a peaceful England, in fact I rather think it would have been the peaceful England of Elizabeth’s reign.
Poor Richard he was as much as a hero as Henry V was at Agincourt, although he never really got to prove his worth.
He actually saved the country from anarchy in some ways. After Stilington’s revelation about Eleanor Butler the whole York line was thrown into choas, he would have known that many many more people would have died, in the melee that would unfold as one faction after another made a play for throne, and did the only thing he could do to save more bloodshed in England, and took the throne for himself.
People were sick of war and needed peace.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 31, 2014
7:56 pm
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Sharon
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Thanks for that report, Olga. I was wondering just where that curve was on him and how bad it was.
Trust me, one can ride a horse with a curvature of the spine. I can attest to that. I don’t ride per say, but I have been on horses. They have to walk very slowly for me though. Otherwise I get bounced right the heck out of the saddle. Wink I’m not very good at it, but I haven’t put a lot of effort into learning to ride. It seems he had a well-balanced curve, which I take to mean that balance was not a problem. Now my balance is off, but I have learned to compensate for that. If he had a problem, he would have figured it out as a young man. I’m sure he had always been on a horse and knew what he was doing. There is no reason to believe Richard would have been prevented by the curve from wielding a sword either. There were no problems with the muscles in his arms and he would have built up muscles in his back, which is important to do with a curvature.

Clothes and armor can be adjusted to cover the curve quite easily, and it wouldn’t have been a problem since clothes were custom made for these people. I wish I had a tailor. I have always had to choose my clothes with care. Nothing clingy. However, he must have had some pain, but he probably ignored it in order to do all the things he wanted to do. I can relate to that. My point here is I can’t see that curve stopping Richard from doing everything that the other men did.

I am not surprised he didn’t have a hunchback. I have read that Shakespeare had based Richard’s form on Robert Cecil, who I believe did have kyphosis. I don’t know how true that is so don’t quote me on it. However, Shakespeare based many of his characters on real life people.

June 2, 2014
4:41 am
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Olga
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Ha I was thinking about Cecil on the weekend (I wrote a short article on the case report). I actually fully back that theory, mainly because Shakespeare invented so many new crimes for Richard. There is plenty that does not fit historically. But truth be told I treat the bard like I treat PG.

I have had a couple of people discussing their scoliosis with me in regards to Richard, Sharon, I am actually finding it really interesting that the condition is now getting more public awareness as well. So no leading men into battle for you Wink

That’s great you’re reading about him Bo. I find the period in general very interesting, at the moment I am fairly entrenched in the Princes.

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