Hi LadyinWaiting,
Yes, perhaps so, I think Henry was always looking for the perfect wife, someone like his mother, and Jane may have been the closest although Catherine of Aragon may have been too.
Henry had said he wished he’d waited, when two new young ladies arrived at court.
One lady was “sent to the country” for her health. Which is generally a euphemism for becoming Henry’s mistress. And that was immediately after marrying Jane.
I read somewhere that Elizabeth basically thought of Anne as a martyr and Henry as a god, so she obviously spoke about both of them. She probably never really spoke of Anne in public, though.
It’s hard to know how Elizabeth felt about Anne as she never spoke openly about her but she wore that locket ring and surrounded herself with Boleyn relatives and I think that shows clearly that Anne was important to her. Yes, I think she looked up to her father. She feared him and had seen him do dreadful things but he was her father and she was “the lion’s cub”.
I’ve never believed he loved Jane the most. I think she was perhaps easier to idolise, since she died producing his only legitimate son, and thus never ran into the problems that Catherine of Aragon and Anne did. I think Henry loved all three of the afore mentioned very deeply, though very differently.
Catherine of Aragon acted as his most trusted friend, confidante, almost as an older sister, too, since she was years older than him; Anne Boleyn… well, I think he was mostly lusting for her, and/or completely fell in love with her wits and charms; Jane was loved, as far as I know, because of her being the sole prince’s mother.
Ironic that after Henry’s incessant longing for a son, and Anne’s soul destroying grief for not providing him a male heir, it was their daughter Elizabeth who walked in his shoes far better than most men could have done.
In retrospect, Elizabeth was the son Henry the VIII never knew he had.
I think Elizabeth was loathe to mention her mother as Anne was still known as the Concubine to a lot of the European Heads of State. However, as Claire says, she enobled many of her Boleyn. She emphasised her paternity as so many Catholic monarchs still considered her a bastard. I don’t think this meant she didn’t love Anne or that she forgot for a minute that Anne had refused to retire to obscurity (as she had been offered as an alternative to divorce/trial/execution) if she would only admit that her marriage to Henry had been unlawful and that Elizabeth was a bastard. She refused as it was extremely important to her that Elizabeth retained her place as Henry’s heir.
Claire,I truely believe that Elizabeth rememberd her mother Anne as Henry and Anne were togther 10years at the time Anne was arrested Elizabeth,must have been 5to6 years old,thats just my geastamation.So she had to of bonded with Anne,but with that said,I’m sure that Anne’s name was not to be mentiond by anyone!But insecret I think she was told threw out the years, Elizabeth knew what had happen to her mother,and did miss and love her mother. Elizabeth was Queen Anne’s reason for living and died for her.So yes she did love what she rememberd of her mumm,and thats is most likely why she had the ring locket with her and Anne’s picture with her. Baroness X
It’s just a thought, but I’ve always felt the reason Elizabeth did not marry was due to the lesson she learned from watching what happened to her Mother and the rest of Henry’s wives. I think it made her strong and independant.
I think the answer to Elizabeth’s unmarried state could be more complex. Perhaps she blamed herself for her mother’s death because she was not a a male child, rather than blaming her father who she loved and admired ,It is easier for a young child to take the blame for something rather than have to judge or choose between two parents. Her fear may have extended to thinking that she might in turn not have produced a male child; might also have had a failed marriage and might also have had to dispose of an unsatisfactory spouse. By being a flirtatious woman yet with ” the heart and stomach of a king” she kept the balance firmly in place between siding with her father or her mother.
Imagine if jane lived…then as we know henry’s son she gave birth to dies eventually…so then what …..the pressure to produce an heir would once again on the queen and in this case it was Jane…..aaand the story begins..
i thnik Henry was soo deep in his ego…that he did not see the signs that he was not MEANT to have an heir son….
1st queen gave him a daughter and miscarried
2nd queen gave him a daughter..miscarried…..and the only boy she could have had turned out deformed too…AND then miscarried….thats another sign
3rd wife….gave birth to a boy who dies…and before that she dies in childbirth as also a sign “dont try again Henry’….i mean u gotta be so corrupted by vanity and ego NOT to see that it was just not meant to happen – stop wasting time and killing people off man!
its surprising to know that ..because in those times people did believe in God and destiny strongly, yet they did not pay attention to signs at all….
“its surprising to know that ..because in those times people did believe in God and destiny strongly, yet they did not pay attention to signs at all….”
Henry died before his son with Jane died (obviously, or else Edward wouldn’t have acceded to the throne in the first place). Of course hindsight tells us Edward was destined to die young and unaccomplished as a monarch and that it would be his daughter with Anne that would best contribute to the Tudor legacy with a very long and very successful reign, but Henry would have had no reason to suspect any of that would happen when he died.
Still, I agree, you’d think that any reasonable person in such a religious and medically primitive age would have taken a second to consider, after so many pregnancies between two different wives and still no son, that maybe God didn’t intend him to have a male heir, or that he was just medically incapable of producing one. Of course, Henry was neither reasonable nor self-aware, so unfortunately he got to die with his belief that it just took the right woman to bear him a son and that thanks to her, he was leaving behind a male heir who would continue his legacy.
Imagine if jane lived…then as we know henry’s son she gave birth to dies eventually…so then what …..the pressure to produce an heir would once again on the queen and in this case it was Jane…..aaand the story begins..
i thnik Henry was soo deep in his ego…that he did not see the signs that he was not MEANT to have an heir son….
1st queen gave him a daughter and miscarried
2nd queen gave him a daughter..miscarried…..and the only boy she could have had turned out deformed too…AND then miscarried….thats another sign
3rd wife….gave birth to a boy who dies…and before that she dies in childbirth as also a sign “dont try again Henry’….i mean u gotta be so corrupted by vanity and ego NOT to see that it was just not meant to happen – stop wasting time and killing people off man!
its surprising to know that ..because in those times people did believe in God and destiny strongly, yet they did not pay attention to God’s signs at all….
Do you suppose one of the reasons Henry loved Jane so much was because she reminded him of his mother, Elizabeth of York?
Hi LadyinWaiting,
Yes, perhaps so, I think Henry was always looking for the perfect wife, someone like his mother, and Jane may have been the closest although Catherine of Aragon may have been too.
But she did not give him the son he wanted and that is in my opinon the reason why he loved Jane the most.
if jane had lived it would have only been a matter of time before things would have turned sour
or if jane had had a girl her days would have been numbered like the rest of them
Henry had said he wished he’d waited, when two new young ladies arrived at court.
One lady was “sent to the country” for her health. Which is generally a euphemism for becoming Henry’s mistress. And that was immediately after marrying Jane.
I read somewhere that Elizabeth basically thought of Anne as a martyr and Henry as a god, so she obviously spoke about both of them. She probably never really spoke of Anne in public, though.
It’s hard to know how Elizabeth felt about Anne as she never spoke openly about her but she wore that locket ring and surrounded herself with Boleyn relatives and I think that shows clearly that Anne was important to her. Yes, I think she looked up to her father. She feared him and had seen him do dreadful things but he was her father and she was “the lion’s cub”.
I’ve never believed he loved Jane the most. I think she was perhaps easier to idolise, since she died producing his only legitimate son, and thus never ran into the problems that Catherine of Aragon and Anne did. I think Henry loved all three of the afore mentioned very deeply, though very differently.
Catherine of Aragon acted as his most trusted friend, confidante, almost as an older sister, too, since she was years older than him; Anne Boleyn… well, I think he was mostly lusting for her, and/or completely fell in love with her wits and charms; Jane was loved, as far as I know, because of her being the sole prince’s mother.
Ironic that after Henry’s incessant longing for a son, and Anne’s soul destroying grief for not providing him a male heir, it was their daughter Elizabeth who walked in his shoes far better than most men could have done.
In retrospect, Elizabeth was the son Henry the VIII never knew he had.
I totally agree with you! If only Henry could have seen and realized it…
I think Elizabeth was loathe to mention her mother as Anne was still known as the Concubine to a lot of the European Heads of State. However, as Claire says, she enobled many of her Boleyn. She emphasised her paternity as so many Catholic monarchs still considered her a bastard. I don’t think this meant she didn’t love Anne or that she forgot for a minute that Anne had refused to retire to obscurity (as she had been offered as an alternative to divorce/trial/execution) if she would only admit that her marriage to Henry had been unlawful and that Elizabeth was a bastard. She refused as it was extremely important to her that Elizabeth retained her place as Henry’s heir.
That was in the movie “Anne of the Thousand Days” and unfortunately never happened.
Claire,I truely believe that Elizabeth rememberd her mother Anne as Henry and Anne were togther 10years at the time Anne was arrested Elizabeth,must have been 5to6 years old,thats just my geastamation.So she had to of bonded with Anne,but with that said,I’m sure that Anne’s name was not to be mentiond by anyone!But insecret I think she was told threw out the years, Elizabeth knew what had happen to her mother,and did miss and love her mother. Elizabeth was Queen Anne’s reason for living and died for her.So yes she did love what she rememberd of her mumm,and thats is most likely why she had the ring locket with her and Anne’s picture with her. Baroness X
Just FYI, Elizabeth was barely 3 when Anne was executed.
It’s just a thought, but I’ve always felt the reason Elizabeth did not marry was due to the lesson she learned from watching what happened to her Mother and the rest of Henry’s wives. I think it made her strong and independant.
I think the answer to Elizabeth’s unmarried state could be more complex. Perhaps she blamed herself for her mother’s death because she was not a a male child, rather than blaming her father who she loved and admired ,It is easier for a young child to take the blame for something rather than have to judge or choose between two parents. Her fear may have extended to thinking that she might in turn not have produced a male child; might also have had a failed marriage and might also have had to dispose of an unsatisfactory spouse. By being a flirtatious woman yet with ” the heart and stomach of a king” she kept the balance firmly in place between siding with her father or her mother.
Imagine if jane lived…then as we know henry’s son she gave birth to dies eventually…so then what …..the pressure to produce an heir would once again on the queen and in this case it was Jane…..aaand the story begins..
i thnik Henry was soo deep in his ego…that he did not see the signs that he was not MEANT to have an heir son….
1st queen gave him a daughter and miscarried
2nd queen gave him a daughter..miscarried…..and the only boy she could have had turned out deformed too…AND then miscarried….thats another sign
3rd wife….gave birth to a boy who dies…and before that she dies in childbirth as also a sign “dont try again Henry’….i mean u gotta be so corrupted by vanity and ego NOT to see that it was just not meant to happen – stop wasting time and killing people off man!
its surprising to know that ..because in those times people did believe in God and destiny strongly, yet they did not pay attention to signs at all….
such irony…
“its surprising to know that ..because in those times people did believe in God and destiny strongly, yet they did not pay attention to signs at all….”
That’s an excellent point.
Henry died before his son with Jane died (obviously, or else Edward wouldn’t have acceded to the throne in the first place). Of course hindsight tells us Edward was destined to die young and unaccomplished as a monarch and that it would be his daughter with Anne that would best contribute to the Tudor legacy with a very long and very successful reign, but Henry would have had no reason to suspect any of that would happen when he died.
Still, I agree, you’d think that any reasonable person in such a religious and medically primitive age would have taken a second to consider, after so many pregnancies between two different wives and still no son, that maybe God didn’t intend him to have a male heir, or that he was just medically incapable of producing one. Of course, Henry was neither reasonable nor self-aware, so unfortunately he got to die with his belief that it just took the right woman to bear him a son and that thanks to her, he was leaving behind a male heir who would continue his legacy.
Imagine if jane lived…then as we know henry’s son she gave birth to dies eventually…so then what …..the pressure to produce an heir would once again on the queen and in this case it was Jane…..aaand the story begins..
i thnik Henry was soo deep in his ego…that he did not see the signs that he was not MEANT to have an heir son….
1st queen gave him a daughter and miscarried
2nd queen gave him a daughter..miscarried…..and the only boy she could have had turned out deformed too…AND then miscarried….thats another sign
3rd wife….gave birth to a boy who dies…and before that she dies in childbirth as also a sign “dont try again Henry’….i mean u gotta be so corrupted by vanity and ego NOT to see that it was just not meant to happen – stop wasting time and killing people off man!
its surprising to know that ..because in those times people did believe in God and destiny strongly, yet they did not pay attention to God’s signs at all….
such irony…