Louise…..I completely agree with you. I’ve thought those same things since I read TOBG, but I kept thinking that there were so many inaccuracies in the book, that maybe this was just another. I haven’t read much about him in anything else though, so I don’t know if my view of him is a real one.

Well either this pure conincidence or either Louise or Olga have devoloped Telepathic ability. I’m in thr process of re reading TOBG at the moment and have got to the bit where Mary and Stafford freindship is starting to blossom into something more..
I agree with Louise I too feel like Mary knew what she was doing. I think that Mary was sick of court life, sick of the way she was being treated, and sick of seeing the world she once knew slowly falling to bits.. She wanted out and William Stafford offered her the ideal solution.
As for William well i’ve not formed a reasonable opinion about him yet, but i think he had feelings for Mary and perhaps saw as a lost sheep, needing care.
I don’t know why but I sort of get the impression that after Henry had filled his boots with Mary, because she was no further use she became a sort of outcast from the family. Almost like the Black Sheep..

I just finished watching the BBC production of TOBG and I definitely got the impression that William was in love with Mary before she was in love with him. He asked her to marry him and she turned him down at first. It was only after Anne was trying to find a ‘suitable’ match for her that she went back to William. Did anyone else find this?

Janet ..The way Mary has been portrayed in TOBG television version, could well be as close the truth as Mary was in real life. I think Mary was stunned when William said marry me, and of course she would have known the result of what such a proposal of marriage from someone with nothing and nowhere to go, that doesn’t mean she was completely against the idea. I just feel as if she turned against her family what little she had would be lost, I also think she was thinking of her son’s welfare too, Anne might take out her anger about Mary’s desicion to marry on her son.

Of course the real turning point in the whole film was the fact of who Anne had decided to choose as Mary’s husband, an old man in short and although he had a title and money and would be set for life the whole prospect of being married to a man old enough to be her father and him to be in her bed grinding away at her night after night was enough to turn anyone’s stomach I should think…
I don’t think Anne meant any malice towards Mary in trying arrange this match, but given the whole situation in the court where the Boleyn’s were concerned he was perhaps the only nobel left that was suitable for someone of Mary’s rank.. I believe many nobels left the court once KOA was put aside in a sort of protest against Henry for marrying some of gentle birth, in short not of Royal status, or in their opinion not fitting to be of Royal status..
I believe William and Mary did love each other, but the loss of her family did hurt her. I think Anne came to terms with Mary’s marriage to William but she perhaps didn’t understand Mary’s reasons for marrying someone of no distinction or ambition. I think Mary and Anne shared the odd letter or 2 and Anne sent Mary a gold cup with a small purse of money from Henry when Mary wrote to her and said she was a little hard up etc…
Of all the Boleyn’s Mary was perhaps the wisest of them all she got out before the mucky stuff hit the fan, kept her head down and her mouth shut, and lived a happy and peaceful life, with a man who loved her for her, not because of what he could get for her etc…I say Good for Mary…

I think the whole thing about Mary and Stafford is interesting. It’s just too bad we’ll never know for sure. In the BBC movie, I liked the way William was portrayed and it did make me think about the way it might have been. However, I still think that he was opportunistic to some extent and Mary didn’t have a very good idea of what her life was going to be like married someone like him. Maybe she really did want to get away from her family and just thought “well it’s not going to be all that bad and anything is better than staying here”, but I also think she was looking for some security for her children and having a husband would help. I guess that makes her opportunistic as well, even though it seems she did love him.

Louise has just ruined all our romantic notions of Mary escaping with her true love into the sunset! Where is my feather duster?

I agree that they should have been open about it from the start, but both of them were older and clearly not virgins so you know I have always thought they probably had a sexual relationship before the marriage and he got her knocked up and they had to get married. Just my thoughts of course.
I’ve also never thought of Stafford as a social climber. He could be of course, but I thought he did have some means of supporting her. I actually don’t have the Weir Mary Boleyn book here to brush up on him (I just ordered it coincidentally) Where was he working while they were in Calais? He also got the Gentleman Pensioner job after Anne’s death (?), I think later on he could have supported her modestly.
The last time I read Mary’s letter I got a strong impression she was sick of all of it. Two lines “I saw that all the world set so little by me” and “verily he would not forsake me to be a king” I’ve always found that entire letter a fascinating insight into Mary.

I have another question, do you think Mary wouldn’t have recognised if he was using her, even after all the sorts of people she had been exposed to at court? Does this makes Adrian Stokes a social climber also? Francis Brandon was in line to the throne at one point, certainly far more important than Mary. Or do you think both women knew their husbands were gold-diggers, and the women just wanted some security, and didn’t care?

They say Francis Brandon married Stokes to protect herself (no citations that’s just a theory I have seen here and there) Is it possible Mary married Stafford for some protection? It was probably still too early in 1534 to sense that Anne was losing her grip on Henry, but she may have been protecting herself from being trapped. Trapped in a bad marriage, trapped at court where she though no-one gave a toss about her anyway. Just a thought.

Olga… I’ve never at it that way before, but you could well be right. Good one..

Olga, I agree with your assessment of Mary. Whether Stafford took advantage of her and her situation or not, she was a smart girl to stay out of the craziness at court. I don’t agree with Starkey. By all accounts she was pretty but I don’t think she was placid. I think she knew how to keep her mouth shut and her eyes down. It certainly kept her out of trouble for the most part. Perhaps she was unremarkable in many ways when compared to Anne, but again, this could just be because she knew to blend into the background rather than drawing attention to herself. I don’t think that makes her placid, just smart.