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4:02 pm
January 3, 2012
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To be honest I’ve not seen the letter that is being referred to, so I can’t make any comment about it, and it would be wrong of me to surmise what is in it. (Something I must do)
As we know so very little of Mary anyway it’s diificult for us to really make a reasonable idea to what was going on in Mary’s head when she began her relationship with William. I agree with Olga that the whole marriage deal was for protection and security. I think Mary could see Anne heading headlong into the hole she was digging for herself and wanted out, before the storm broke.
When she was Henry’s mistress she knew that she just sit back and enjoy the ride as it wouldn’t last for ever, so in that respect she was very different in temperment to Anne who basically made it clear to Henry she would have all or nothing.
In that respect Mary perhaps could have been called the perfect woman. Even if Henry hadn’t cast his eye upon her I think there would be times when Carey would have strayed, and she would have excepted it as all part and package of her marriage to him…
I wonder is there evidence to suggest that T.B had affairs especially when he was away from home on diplomatic missions?
She would have know about Norfolk’s relationship with Bess Holland.
On the whole I don’t think William wanted much from life, if he was as ambitious as some historians believe he would have surely wanted to make himself more worthy to mate with Mary at the very least become a Sir something or other with the appropiate lands and titles to go with it.
He knew she lived the high life and would have wanted to give her the same high life, only away from court. Mary knew what marriage would have meant to him, she would lose all the frills and fripperies she was used to, but went ahead anyway, so that tells me at least she must have had some feelings for him.
After Carey’s death I believe she had no end of trouble getting her widow’s pension sorted out, I believe at one point she asked Anne to intercede for her with the king about getting a stipend or something for her. So until all that was sorted out you could say she was living on the charity given to her by her family, that must have felt very humiliated. Basically she had nothing other than what was given to her by her family, who were by rights under no obligation to do.
I really just don’t understand why she was so pushed out by the rest of the family after her affair ended with Henry, it’s not like she did anything wrong, she was pushed into getting into Henry’s bed, born him at least one child (although I believe both Kate and Harry were Henry’s) and did what was asked of her by Norfolk. So to be also disowned by her family just because Henry had filled his boots with her and moved on to his next conquest seems to me at least extremely unfair..
I don’t blame her in the least for sticking 2 fingers up at them all and marrying William at least she knew that he wanted her and that she wouldn’t be thrown out without so much as a pot to pee into if he happened to die before her. Ok so William didn’t have much to give her but what he had he gave to her.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
4:25 pm
February 24, 2012
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I just wrote a post and have no idea where it disappeared to. 
Good points Boleyn, as usual. I have often wondered why Mary got the cold shoulder from her family when Henry got tired of her. I know they would have profited by having her in his bed, but it’s not like Henry was moving on to someone from another family. Any ideas from anyone? My mind is a muddle today. 
4:52 pm
February 24, 2010
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Mary wasn’t thinking clearly if she thought her family would not desert her when she married William. And William was not thinking clearly if he thought Mary’s family would accept him. Therefore, I think they were blinded by love. They just weren’t thinking clearly! 
How’s that?
It does seem William was ambitious, but not more so than others. In 1530 Stafford was handpicked by the king to be joint Sheriff of Oxfordshire and Berkshire. In 1533, he joined the Calais garrison. By the end of that year he was being trusted by Lord Lisle to do special errands. He was earning a living and had prospects for the future. They could have lived on his salary, but it would never have been close to what Mary had grown accustomed to. Maybe William did think he would have it made being married to the Queen’s sister. Or maybe he wasn’t thinking at all.
Louise you are probably right but here’s the thing…I think they fell in love and everything that happened after that were blows they didn’t see coming. And I’m stickin’ to it. For now! 
6:23 pm
February 24, 2010
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Janet said
I just wrote a post and have no idea where it disappeared to.
Good points Boleyn, as usual. I have often wondered why Mary got the cold shoulder from her family when Henry got tired of her. I know they would have profited by having her in his bed, but it’s not like Henry was moving on to someone from another family. Any ideas from anyone? My mind is a muddle today.
I wonder if Mary was given the cold shoulder by her family because of Henry. Henry may have felt a bit embarrassed having Mary at court since she had been his mistress, and he was always trying to prove his marriage to her sister, Anne, was justified. He could have been the one who showed a discomfort with Mary being at court. If he was, the Boleyn’s would not have much choice in the matter. If they thought Henry was showing any displeasure with Mary, they would have done whatever was necessary to make him happy. Mary would be out. Just a thought.
6:42 pm
December 5, 2009
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It’s true that no one can really tell what’s going on in anyone else’s mind. That is the impression of Stafford which I get from what I know of him. It’s possible, although unlikely that I’m wrong because obviously there are only two perfect people who have ever lived. That’s me and George Boleyn.
6:55 pm
October 28, 2011
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Janet, blending into the background is a good way to describe it. People knew about her affair with Henry, and I imagine it was probably uncomfortable for everyone.
Sharon, I agree actually. Although I think Mary might have been embarrassed about it too. I don’t know a lot about Bessie Blount but it looks like she fared much better than Mary did.
Boleyn, I had forgotten about Mary struggling to get money (that she was entitled to!) after Carey’s death. Honestly, I just think they treated her like rubbish, like it would have been so difficult to get her small pension organised for her.
None of us know if Mary particularly enjoyed being Henry’s mistress either. Last time I read Weir’s book on her she pointed out that neither Mary nor the Boleyns actually benefited a great deal from it. Mary, at least, seems to have benefited the least from it. Henry never formally recognised either of the children if they were his (I suspect at least Catherine was, if not Henry as well), he only gave Catherine a small benefit for having fathered her, he didn’t look after Mary after Carey’s death and he ruined Mary’s reputation. The whole thing stinks, I am getting angrier as I type.
Why the heck should she honour her family when they all treated her like rubbish anyway? Good on her for running off with Stafford. And I’m glad she inherited most of their land, even if she had little time to enjoy it.
8:14 pm
December 5, 2009
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I’m going to be a bit controversial here (what’s new you may cry)! I don’t have much time for Mary Boleyn. I don’t dislike her or hold her in contempt. I don’t think she was silly or thick or worthless, and I don’t think she deserves the reputation as a wh*re. But I don’t know what there is about her that is so fascinating.
What do we really know about her? She was born. We don’t know when. She went to France with Mary Tudor. She may or may not have been Francis I’s mistress. She married William Carey in February 1520. She had a sexual encounter with Henry VIII. We don’t know when it started, when it ended or for how long it went on for. She had two children who were rumoured to be Henry’s, but he never acknowledged either of them, so who knows? Her husband died in 1528. She travelled to Calais with Anne in 1532. She secretly married William Stafford in 1534 and had his child. She died in 1543.
I don’t mean to be nasty to the poor cow, but what is there to admire? She was a woman who lived a life that most women lived in so far as we don’t know much about her and she didn’t do anything spectacular apart from give Henry grounds for divorcing from Anne. She married for love. OK fair enough. But although she would rather be married to a commoner than a King, bless, it was a bit naive when in the same letter as saying so she was also begging for financial assistance from her relatives. So presumably love does not overcome all.
At the time of marrying Stafford no one could have known what was to come in 1536. She was lucky to get out when she did, that’s all.
The Boleyns are demonised for the way they treated her. No Boleyn threw her at Henry. I don’t buy pimp daddy Boleyn. I think they were horrified at her becoming Henry’s mistress. When Carey died she was not thrust into the arms of any available and profitable man. When she married Stafford she had been a widow for six years. All she was expected to do was act respectably and live a life of luxury. If she wasn’t happy then she did what she thought she needed to do to change her life. I think Thomas was mean to her following Carey’s death, as was Henry who had no intentions of voluntarily giving her financial support, but that does not mean she didn’t live comfortably. For the standards of 1534 she did not act respectably. She fell pregnant by a commoner and embarressed her sister, the Queen. The Boleyns had a right to be angry with the whole sorry business. She had a position to uphold and failed to do so. Fair play to her for putting personal happiness before duty. I’m not knocking her for that, but I can’t admire her for it either.
She inherited the Boleyn lands when Thomas died on the backs of her dead siblings. Nothing to celebrate there.
12:18 am
January 3, 2012
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Sharon said
Janet said
I just wrote a post and have no idea where it disappeared to.
Good points Boleyn, as usual. I have often wondered why Mary got the cold shoulder from her family when Henry got tired of her. I know they would have profited by having her in his bed, but it’s not like Henry was moving on to someone from another family. Any ideas from anyone? My mind is a muddle today.
I wonder if Mary was given the cold shoulder by her family because of Henry. Henry may have felt a bit embarrassed having Mary at court since she had been his mistress, and he was always trying to prove his marriage to her sister, Anne, was justified. He could have been the one who showed a discomfort with Mary being at court. If he was, the Boleyn’s would not have much choice in the matter. If they thought Henry was showing any displeasure with Mary, they would have done whatever was necessary to make him happy. Mary would be out. Just a thought.
Interesting idea Sharon, and you could well be right too. Generally speaking once Henry had his fix of his mistress for the a season or 2, they were usually sent packing, to have Mary still hanging around must have left Henry feeling a little uncomfortable..but by the same token Mary didn’t push herself forward in anyway or draw attention to herself, and go around saying “Yeah well I’ve slept with the King you know”. But it still doesn’t excuse the way she was treated by her family after Henry lost interest in her. What really surprizes me about this whole thing is Anne’s attitude towards Mary, I would have thought that keeping Mary about would have been the last thing she would have wanted, especially as Mary may or may not have had a son by Henry, although at that time she was confident in her ability to have her own son/s by Henry. I often wonder why she chose to try and adopt Henry Junior? Was she afraid that she might not be able to have a son and therefore thought by adopting or trying to Henry Junior she would by way of her sister give Henry his son and heir.
Louise has also made some very valid points. Mary is something of a nonentity. we know next to nothing about her other that she had a roll in the hay with a King of England, danced a little bit, was married twice had 2 possibly 3 children(2 of which may or may not of been King Henry’s) Was with her sister Anne for a while before she became Queen and then retired (Banished) to the country with her second husband and lived a somewhat frugal exsistence before dying in 1543.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
1:12 pm
October 28, 2011
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Louise said
If she wasn’t happy then she did what she thought she needed to do to change her life.
Yes but that one sentence there Louise, is exactly what I find remarkable about her. She did this even before her brother and sister were executed (murdered really) and I still think it takes guts. Sure she asked for money, it still doesn’t change the fact that she took her life into her own hands, and I admire any woman who did that in those times.
As for the Boleyns throwing her at Henry, well no I don’t think they did. But I don’t think they were horrified about it either, not at the time. Probably when he decided he wanted Anne, yes, because then it firstly became embarrassing, and a possible obstacle to Anne and Henry being married because of the affinity factor.
And I still don’t think Mary had a choice either. Because who is going to say no to their King? Only Anne did, and much good it did her in the end. I find the three Boleyn children, as a whole family, fascinating. George and Anne may have outshone Mary but I would never call her unremarkable.
Also she still appeals to my romantic and idealistic side to be honest.
Boleyn Anne taking wardship of Henry Carey has always baffled me actually
1:28 pm
April 11, 2011
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I agree with your sentiments, Olga. In any event for us to be having this discussion regarding a woman of this period must make her remarkable in whatever context. Women, of whatever rank, had a tough time in Tudor England. Whatever we may or may not think about her life choices the very fact that she had the guts to make those choices does, in my opinion, make her a remarkable woman in her own right.
3:34 pm
January 3, 2012
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It was common practise to farm a nobelman’s children out, although the kids were well aware of who their parents were etc. Did the parents make the choice about who would be best for bringing up their children or was it decided by the King or Queen at the time? I’m inclined to think that the child’s foster family was decided apon before they were even born I.e if it’s a boy Mr and Mrs Jones will foster it. If its a girl Mr and Mrs Smith will foster it.
Of course it was also to do with politics and wealth too. A good way of keeping alleigence with a family was to marry them to one of your own.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
3:50 pm
December 5, 2009
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Hi Olga,
Please don’t think I’m getting at Mary because I’m not. I don’t have many opinions about her one way or the other. She placed personal happiness over duty. As I said, fair play to her, but I don’t admire it, I just accept it. Did it take guts, or did she surrender against the strain of court life and take the easy option? If so then I don’t blame her, but I can’t admire her either.
I don’t think that Mary ws a wh*re, but I also don’t accept that pressure was placed upon her by her family to become Henry’s mistress and there’s nothing to suggest they were happy with it. I think she may have had no choice where Henry was concerned, but that’s a different matter if it was forced upon her by Henry. Anne had more strength of character to resist, but no one could have forseen the outcome of that.
I don’t think Mary was any more remarkable than any other woman of her age, save for the fact she was a Boleyn.
But I think on the issue of Mary we’ll have to agree to disagree.
6:59 pm
February 24, 2010
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Mary was a Boleyn and speaking for myself, I want to know everything I can about all of them.
What if you were the only one in your family who thought the way they were living was wrong?
She may not be as remarkable as the rest of her family, but she seems to have had their gumption. Mary used it in a totally different way than the rest of her family. I’m not saying Mary had it right and her family had it wrong. Both sides did what they thought was right. Mary may have always wanted to have a husband and children and to live away from court. If she was not happy with her life at court, then I can’t say as I blame her for looking for a way out. I know she was supposed to do what her family expected of her, but she didn’t want that life for herself and she did something about it. She was as determined to have her way of life as the rest of the Boleyn’s were to have theirs. She did what she thought was right for her.
Boleyn,
I don’t believe Anne tried to adopt Henry Carey. Henry gave wardship of the boy to Anne after William Carey died. As a guardian Anne was better placed to care for Henry’s property and education than Mary was. Apparently, he thought Anne could do a better job than Mary of taking care of the revenues. By doing this he deprived Mary of the income from the properties.
8:00 pm
December 5, 2009
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Sharon, when you talk about revenues/income from the properties, are you referring to property of William Carey left to his son? I’ve tried to get hold of various Inquisition Post Mortem from the National Archives. They can’t be found online and I’ve had no joy contacting the archives direct.
8:38 pm
February 24, 2010
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I looked that up in Weir’s book. Chapter 10. You know how that goes. She says the lands were inherited by his lawful, acknowledged heir, three year old Henry Carey. Weir says William Carey’s inquisition postmortem is in L&P.;Benton; V. C. H.: Buckinghamshire and Cambridgeshire.
Why am I not surprised the record cannot be found?
She says L&P. nothing else. “In March of 1527, his lands were valued for a subsidy at just L333,6s.8d.” ( L107,500) That’s it. She claims in the beginning of the chapter that when William died his properties reverted back to the king. Mary got nothing. Later in the same chapter she says wardship of Henry Carey was awarded to Anne. She refers to Wilkinson’s Mary Boleyn for the list of properties. She then says, “His lucrative offices and keeperships along with their revenues, immediately reverted to the crown, and suit was at once made for them after his death.” Ibid.
Anyway that’s it unless you want the list of properties she gives.
Manors of Traceies, Stanford Rivers, and Suttons and appurtenances there and in High Onger, Essex. Formerly owned by Buckingham.
Not much help…Sorry.
9:03 pm
January 3, 2012
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Sharon said
Mary was a Boleyn and speaking for myself, I want to know everything I can about all of them.
What if you were the only one in your family who thought the way they were living was wrong?
She may not be as remarkable as the rest of her family, but she seems to have had their gumption. Mary used it in a totally different way than the rest of her family. I’m not saying Mary had it right and her family had it wrong. Both sides did what they thought was right. Mary may have always wanted to have a husband and children and to live away from court. If she was not happy with her life at court, then I can’t say as I blame her for looking for a way out. I know she was supposed to do what her family expected of her, but she didn’t want that life for herself and she did something about it. She was as determined to have her way of life as the rest of the Boleyn’s were to have theirs. She did what she thought was right for her.Boleyn,
I don’t believe Anne tried to adopt Henry Carey. Henry gave wardship of the boy to Anne after William Carey died. As a guardian Anne was better placed to care for Henry’s property and education than Mary was. Apparently, he thought Anne could do a better job than Mary of taking care of the revenues. By doing this he deprived Mary of the income from the properties.
Adopt was the wrong word to use, I should have said guardian my bad..
Yes I totally agree Mary wasn’t in the position to give Henry Junior the correct and proper upbringing that a male child of Nobel/Royal birth deserved.
But then one has to ask the question why was that? If Mary had been given her widow’s pension etc, at the time of Carey’s death, she would have been able to make sure that Henry Junior’s education etc was catered for.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
9:08 pm
December 5, 2009
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l is the old sign for pounds (it comes from the Latin ‘libra’ i.e. scales)
I can’t find Carey’s IPM in L& P but on 20th March 1527 an assessment of his wealth was 333l, 6s, 8d.
I would imagine that all of Carey’s properties were not actually owned by him, but the income/revenues were granted to him during his life. It was the same with George Boleyn. He only actually owned Grimston, the rest would have reverted back to the Crown on his death even if he had died a natural death. If so then Carey would have had little if anything to bequeath to Henry by way real estate. When Henry granted Anne the guardianship of Henry Carey I don’t think that in itself deprived Mary of the revenues because my understanding is that she was never entitled to them anyway. That’s my understanding anyway.
Anne was instrumental in getting Mary a pension and she also paid for Henry’s education. It was an act of kindness towards her sister who was left pretty much penniless when William died.
PS ibid means ‘as above’.
10:00 pm
November 18, 2010
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Sharon, IIRC…ibid means in the same book/paper .
It's always bunnies.
1:30 am
October 28, 2011
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I don’t think you are getting at her Louise, I’m just disagreeing with you thinking she’s not that special. Stop being so apologetic
Sharon said
What if you were the only one in your family who thought the way they were living was wrong?
Sharon that’s a pretty staggering thought. You’ve got my brain ticking again.
10:48 am
January 3, 2012
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Louise said
l is the old sign for pounds (it comes from the Latin ‘libra’ i.e. scales)
I can’t find Carey’s IPM in L& P but on 20th March 1527 an assessment of his wealth was 333l, 6s, 8d.
I would imagine that all of Carey’s properties were not actually owned by him, but the income/revenues were granted to him during his life. It was the same with George Boleyn. He only actually owned Grimston, the rest would have reverted back to the Crown on his death even if he had died a natural death. If so then Carey would have had little if anything to bequeath to Henry by way real estate. When Henry granted Anne the guardianship of Henry Carey I don’t think that in itself deprived Mary of the revenues because my understanding is that she was never entitled to them anyway. That’s my understanding anyway.
Anne was instrumental in getting Mary a pension and she also paid for Henry’s education. It was an act of kindness towards her sister who was left pretty much penniless when William died.PS ibid means ‘as above’.
I’m given to believe that Mary asked for her husband’s stipendium, which I suppose was their modern equivilant of a Widow’s pension.
Perhaps Henry paying for Henry Junior’s education was his way of saying thanks to Mary for proving that he is capable of fathering boys.
To be property owner in your own right in those days must mean that you were something big. What I don’t understand is why Henry didn’t give Mary a little home of her own?
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
