Was Katherine of Aragon a virgin? | Page 3 | The Six Wives | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Was Katherine of Aragon a virgin?
March 17, 2011
7:30 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2345
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

( shrug) not sure..I need to find my cite.

 

There were traditions in Europe where the wedding sheets were hung out of the windows to show the blood-stains.

It's always bunnies.

March 19, 2011
10:41 pm
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ok, I don't know if KoA was a virgin or not.  I could easily be swayed either way as both arguments are convincing.  

However, I also think there's a very good possibility that KoA simply was entirely clueless about sex when it came to her marriage to Arthur.  I mean, I'm sure no one sat her down and explained to her what was going to happen on her wedding night.  She was young and most certainly a virgin on the day she wedded Arthur, and probably very naive regarding all things sex-related.  Perhaps she and Arthur fooled around (or even just kissed) but didn't actually have sex and she mistook that as loosing her virginity.  It may not have been until later, when she married Henry (and I think we'd all be a little naive to think he was a virgin on his wedding day to KoA) that she put two and two together.   Maybe when questioned prior to her marriage to H8 regarding her virginity, she truly believed she wasn't–and it wasn't until later (after her marriage to H8) that she realized she had, indeed, still been a virgin.  She wouldn't have been lying–merely uninformed and mistaken.

I know it sounds stupid, but even with a society as hyper-sexualized as ours is today, I still have students who are completely clueless about the ins and outs of sex.  Imagine if you were a female in a fairly repressed society where “good girls” didn't talk about such things–and your mom certainly wasn't going to discuss it with you outside of making the point that one of your primary roles as queen was to provide an heir–preferably male.  While I'm sure there were ways for KoA to go about finding such information, I don't get the impression that she would have sought it out.

And, let's be honest, Henry's assessment of KoA's virginity or lack thereof is ridiculous.  If he wanted KoA to be a virgin, she was, and if he didn't want her to be, she wasn't.  Simple as that.  Henry wasn't stupid or naive in the bedroom–he simply chose to believe what he wanted to believe.  

Now, let's pretend for two seconds that she DID lie.  A) KoA would NEVER have gone to her grave without confessing that and performing the appropriate penance.  B) I'm sure her confessor, whoever it was, was sympathetic to her ordeal and would never have told anyone.  And I don't think that KoA would have confessed such a thing to just ANYONE.  She was a devout Catholic, yes, but I think she was also shrewd and was careful of who she placed her trust and confidences in.  She loved her daughter and I truly do not believe that she would have confessed having lied to anyone who could have later come back and used that information against her or her daughter after her death.  

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

March 20, 2011
4:22 am
Avatar
DuchessofBrittany
Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 847
Member Since:
June 7, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

MegC said:

However, I also think there's a very good possibility that KoA simply was entirely clueless about sex when it came to her marriage to Arthur.  I mean, I'm sure no one sat her down and explained to her what was going to happen on her wedding night.  She was young and most certainly a virgin on the day she wedded Arthur, and probably very naive regarding all things sex-related.  Perhaps she and Arthur fooled around (or even just kissed) but didn't actually have sex and she mistook that as loosing her virginity.  It may not have been until later, when she married Henry (and I think we'd all be a little naive to think he was a virgin on his wedding day to KoA) that she put two and two together.   Maybe when questioned prior to her marriage to H8 regarding her virginity, she truly believed she wasn't–and it wasn't until later (after her marriage to H8) that she realized she had, indeed, still been a virgin.  She wouldn't have been lying–merely uninformed and mistaken.


I believe it was David Starkey in his TV series on The Six Wives that he notes KOA's knowledge about sex was limited. It's been a long time since I watched this show, or read Starkey's six wives book. But I do recall a discussion about KOA possibly not truly understanding the concept of sex. If someone can quote this for sure, it would be most appreciated!

MegC, you've given me some food for thought!

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

March 20, 2011
7:27 pm
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 599
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

MegC said:

…completely clueless about the ins and outs of sex.  


Paging Dr. Freud! LOL

Personally, I don't think Katharine lied. IIRC, she stated she was a virgin upon Arthur's death, not when it was politically strategic for her to claim that. It was the parents (and parents-in-law) who doubted that and waited until it was obvious she wasn't pregnant before officially declaring young Henry the new heir. She would have been entitled to dower lands and monies as Arthur's widow and her life would have been easier as such before the notion of marrying her to Henry came up.

I'm also persuaded by her being willing to swear on her soul. And Henry never publicly contradicted her on that. But we also know how many times Henry seems to have not been right about virginity or lack thereof (Anne of Cleves, Kathryn Howard). So maybe he was able to convince himself that Katharine wasn't some 20 years later, because he'd never known for sure.

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

March 21, 2011
8:56 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2345
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anyanka said:

 

Despite the reports of the blood-stained sheets being sent to Isabella and Ferdinand( trying to find the cite! I've had a long day…) , I think KoA was a virgin too.


Not the cite I remember reading, I'm still looking for that one.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A…..e_of_Wales

 

This dispute, and Henry's inability to obtain papal dissolution of his marriage, would come to be a major cause of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E…..eformation

 

is one of several blogs talking about the sheets.

It's always bunnies.

March 21, 2011
9:54 am
Avatar
La Belle Creole
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
March 9, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The existence (or not) of a bloodied sheet would not influence my opinion.  As we all now know, not every virgin experiences pain/bleeding during first intercourse, nor is a ruptured hymen the sole cause by which a person can bleed. 

March 21, 2011
10:16 am
Avatar
La Belle Creole
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
March 9, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

MegC said:

Ok, I don't know if KoA was a virgin or not.  I could easily be swayed either way as both arguments are convincing.  

However, I also think there's a very good possibility that KoA simply was entirely clueless about sex when it came to her marriage to Arthur.  I mean, I'm sure no one sat her down and explained to her what was going to happen on her wedding night.  She was young and most certainly a virgin on the day she wedded Arthur, and probably very naive regarding all things sex-related.  Perhaps she and Arthur fooled around (or even just kissed) but didn't actually have sex and she mistook that as loosing her virginity.  It may not have been until later, when she married Henry (and I think we'd all be a little naive to think he was a virgin on his wedding day to KoA) that she put two and two together.   Maybe when questioned prior to her marriage to H8 regarding her virginity, she truly believed she wasn't–and it wasn't until later (after her marriage to H8) that she realized she had, indeed, still been a virgin.  She wouldn't have been lying–merely uninformed and mistaken.

I know it sounds stupid, but even with a society as hyper-sexualized as ours is today, I still have students who are completely clueless about the ins and outs of sex.  Imagine if you were a female in a fairly repressed society where “good girls” didn't talk about such things–and your mom certainly wasn't going to discuss it with you outside of making the point that one of your primary roles as queen was to provide an heir–preferably male.  While I'm sure there were ways for KoA to go about finding such information, I don't get the impression that she would have sought it out.

And, let's be honest, Henry's assessment of KoA's virginity or lack thereof is ridiculous.  If he wanted KoA to be a virgin, she was, and if he didn't want her to be, she wasn't.  Simple as that.  Henry wasn't stupid or naive in the bedroom–he simply chose to believe what he wanted to believe.  

Now, let's pretend for two seconds that she DID lie.  A) KoA would NEVER have gone to her grave without confessing that and performing the appropriate penance.  B) I'm sure her confessor, whoever it was, was sympathetic to her ordeal and would never have told anyone.  And I don't think that KoA would have confessed such a thing to just ANYONE.  She was a devout Catholic, yes, but I think she was also shrewd and was careful of who she placed her trust and confidences in.  She loved her daughter and I truly do not believe that she would have confessed having lied to anyone who could have later come back and used that information against her or her daughter after her death.  


I have to agree with this.  There are many adults (much less teens) who have odd misconceptions about sexuality and sexual health. even in the present day.

April 6, 2011
9:15 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2345
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anyanka said:

Despite the reports of the blood-stained sheets being sent to Isabella and Ferdinand( trying to find the cite! I've had a long day…) , I think KoA was a virgin too.


This from the Anne Boleyn files matches the cite I was looking for, though it wasn't the one I read which was in Starkey's Six Wives , I think…

 

The matrimonial trials of Henry VIII” by Henry Ansgar Kelly, Kelly
writes of how “Ferdinand’s counselor’s in England sent the bedsheets
stained with Catherine’s blood to Spain as proof that it [consummation]
had occurred” and that it was even said that Arthur’s death was caused
by excessive intercourse!

Read more: /anne-boleyn-and-catherine-of-aragon-part-1/2338/#ixzz1Io71Rdgu

It's always bunnies.

April 7, 2011
11:45 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anyanka, I may have found what you were looking for in Starkey's, Six Wives.  There was a conversation between Wolsey and Katherine's Almoner, Dr Robert Shorten.  This happened the night before the renewal of the dispute.  Compeggio had arrived in England.  Wolsey asked Shorten questions concerning what Katherine may have heard of the legate's arrival.  Then the topic turned to the Queen's intentions.  Shorten goes on to tell him exactly what Katherine is going to say.  In retaliation Wolsey refutes point by point her arguments. “He went on at inordinate length, especially on the issue of the consummation of her first marriage with Arthur.  The Spanish Ambassadors, he claimed, 'did send the sheets they lay in, spotted with blood into Spain, in full testimony and proof thereof.' pg.219-221 of my paperback copy.  I couldn't find any mention of the said sheets being sent for, or being used against Katherine.

As to the bedding process, Starkey writes that first Katherine was undressed by her ladies and 'reverently laid and disposed' in the bed.  “The games over, a large group of nobles and clergy led as always by Oxford, conducted Arthur to the bedchamber, where he lay down beside Katherine.”  The bishops uttered the usual blessing over the marriage bed….”   “Finally with the blessings of the Church and the good wishes of their friends ringing in their ears, Arthur and Katherine were left alone.”  Starkey then says, “What happened then, only God knows.”  pgs 61-62

Shrewsbury, remembered accompanying Arthur to the wedding chamber and leaving him there.  He assumed the marriage was consummated.  Dorset, remembered Arthur getting into bed where Lady Katherine lay under the coverlet 'as the manner is of Queens in that behalf.'  He also assumed the marriage was consummated. Anthony Willoughby said Arthur claimed the next morning, 'bring me a cup of ale, for I have been this night in the midst of Spain.'  Later, the Prince had said openly: “Masters, it is good pastime to have a wife.”  Pgs 62-63

William Thomas, a groom of the Privy Chamber for three years attended the Prince at Ludlow. He prepared the Prince for the conjugal bed.  Thomas 'made him ready to bed and conducted him clad in his night gown unto the Princess's bedchamber door often and sundry times…' pg 76  Starkey then goes on to mention the testicular cancer theory.

One more thing and I'm doing this on memory, two men of Katherine's household told Isabella and Ferdinand that the marriage was consummated.   Dona Elvira, Lady-in-chief, to Katherine swore that Katherine was a virgin.  The men were recalled to Spain.  Many times when trying to decide what to do about Katherine, her parents inquired as to the state of their daughter's virginity in case she were to be sent home to wed eleswhere. 

April 7, 2011
12:30 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2345
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks Sharon.

 

I really just can't believe that they would have sent the sheets to the Spanish court or  kept the sheets for over 30 years just in case. It just seems totally ….bizzare for want of a better phrase.

 

However, I still maintain that IMHO KoA was a virgin when she married H8.

It's always bunnies.

April 7, 2011
5:31 pm
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I guess the thing that hangs me up is this:  They were married for six months, and I realize that for the last month or so of their marriage they were both very ill, but I can't believe that for the part where they were both healthy that they simply didn't have sex.  Especially when producing the heir to the throne was SOOOOO important for Katherine.  Katherine was, by all accounts, beautiful so I find it difficult that they wouldn't attempt consummation based on physical attraction.

Unless…

There was something going on with Arthur that we don't know about.  Possibilities include (but are certainly not limited to…):

1)  Arthur was gay maybe?  I simply don't believe this one.  I'm sure there were tons of homosexuals in Tudor England who managed to remain closeted and bear children.

2)  Arthur was suffering from some physical ailment which made him incapable of having sex–though not from lack of trying (if we are to believe the word of William Thomas).

3)  Both Arthur and Katherine were so shy and self-conscious that they couldn't bring themselves to do it.

 

As for the sheet thing, I can totally see why they would have taken the conjugal sheets and sent them to Spain.  It was proof that England had held up their end of the bargain, Katherine was wedded and bedded, and any alliance between them would remain intact.  Now, why Spain would want to hold on to those mangy sheets for 30 years, I don't know.  I mean, it's not something I would fold up and put in my hope chest, but whatever…

The blood part would have been easy to fake.  Katherine could have easily been on her period (sorry if TMI).  Or let's pretend for a minute that something happened and they weren't able to consummate the marriage that night.  If it were me, I'd be pretty damn frightened of what Arthur's dad was going to say when he found out, and you can be damn sure the whole Court was going to know about it, too.  Tongues would wag and Katherine would look like a failure which simply would not do for a Princess of Spain/future Queen of England.  She was enough of an outsider as it was–a Spanish princess in the English court, barely able to speak the language at that point.  I'd be ringing Dona Elvira pretty quickly to go down to the kitchen and get the blood of some poor butchered animal to put on the sheets and letting Arthur say whatever he needed to say to make himself look good.  I know it seems pretty far-fetched, but this is POLITICS we're talking about. 

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 8, 2011
10:12 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anyanka said:

Thanks Sharon.

 

I really just can't believe that they would have sent the sheets to the Spanish court or  kept the sheets for over 30 years just in case. It just seems totally ….bizzare for want of a better phrase.

 

However, I still maintain that IMHO KoA was a virgin when she married H8.


Even if they did send the sheets to Spain, Wolsey was just making the point that they were sent. Meg makes a good point about England having to prove to Spain that they kept their part of the bargain.  Apparently, Wolsey never sent for them to be used against her, and I doubt if Spain would have kept them all that time. But who knows…strange times.

April 8, 2011
10:46 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

MegC said:

 

The blood part would have been easy to fake.  Katherine could have easily been on her period (sorry if TMI).  Or let's pretend for a minute that something happened and they weren't able to consummate the marriage that night.  If it were me, I'd be pretty damn frightened of what Arthur's dad was going to say when he found out, and you can be damn sure the whole Court was going to know about it, too.  Tongues would wag and Katherine would look like a failure which simply would not do for a Princess of Spain/future Queen of England.  She was enough of an outsider as it was–a Spanish princess in the English court, barely able to speak the language at that point.  I'd be ringing Dona Elvira pretty quickly to go down to the kitchen and get the blood of some poor butchered animal to put on the sheets and letting Arthur say whatever he needed to say to make himself look good.  I know it seems pretty far-fetched, but this is POLITICS we're talking about. 


This is where it gets all tangled.  Wolsey claimed there were sheets sent to Spain with Katherine's blood on them proving the couple had consummated the marriage.  Dona Elvira claimed the opposite.  She said Katherine was still a virgin.  She made this claim after the death of Arthur. Why would Isabella and Ferdinand believe Dona Elvira if they had been sent the sheets proving otherwise? Someone is telling tales here.

One of the men who was recalled to Spain was Alassandro Geraldini at the encouragement of Dona Elvira.  He also happened to be Katherine's confessor. He wasn't talking. Starkey says, “Dona Elvira's own self-interested motives for insisting on her charges virginity (and hence Katherine's continuing dependant status) are also very clear.” She wanted the negotiations to continue so Katherine could remain in England and she wanted to remain in control of Katherine. 

April 12, 2011
12:23 am
Avatar
Sarah
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 19
Member Since:
March 23, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sorry bit late in the game but…

 

I think Katherine could have lied about the consummation because:

 

 1. Although Katherine was brought up in an extremely religious court, I don't think she was AS devout was she was in her much later years, which means she may have been more inclined to lie.

2. Dedicated to Spanish – English alliance.  Remember Katherine had been groomed and told it was her destiny to be Queen of England since she was a toddler, so maybe she was willing to do anything to try and maintain the alliance and become Queen?

3.  She had watched her sister in law, Margaret of Austria discarded because she was no longer of any use after she gave birth to a stillborn child. Perhaps Kat thought if she told her in laws it had indeed been consummated but she was not pregnant that she too would be discarded and sent back to Spain?

 

I'm on the fence in regards to the consummation, but those are the things that keep me iffy about her being a Virgin after all. Just my thoughts =)

"For her behaviour, manners, attire and tongue she excelled them all."— Lancelot de Carles



 

 

April 12, 2011
7:23 am
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sharon said:

MegC said:

 

The blood part would have been easy to fake.  Katherine could have easily been on her period (sorry if TMI).  Or let's pretend for a minute that something happened and they weren't able to consummate the marriage that night.  If it were me, I'd be pretty damn frightened of what Arthur's dad was going to say when he found out, and you can be damn sure the whole Court was going to know about it, too.  Tongues would wag and Katherine would look like a failure which simply would not do for a Princess of Spain/future Queen of England.  She was enough of an outsider as it was–a Spanish princess in the English court, barely able to speak the language at that point.  I'd be ringing Dona Elvira pretty quickly to go down to the kitchen and get the blood of some poor butchered animal to put on the sheets and letting Arthur say whatever he needed to say to make himself look good.  I know it seems pretty far-fetched, but this is POLITICS we're talking about. 


This is where it gets all tangled.  Wolsey claimed there were sheets sent to Spain with Katherine's blood on them proving the couple had consummated the marriage.  Dona Elvira claimed the opposite.  She said Katherine was still a virgin.  She made this claim after the death of Arthur. Why would Isabella and Ferdinand believe Dona Elvira if they had been sent the sheets proving otherwise? Someone is telling tales here.
 

One of the men who was recalled to Spain was Alassandro Geraldini at the encouragement of Dona Elvira.  He also happened to be Katherine's confessor. He wasn't talking. Starkey says, “Dona Elvira's own self-interested motives for insisting on her charges virginity (and hence Katherine's continuing dependant status) are also very clear.” She wanted the negotiations to continue so Katherine could remain in England and she wanted to remain in control of Katherine. 


Excellent point about Dona Elvira!  Not only that, but Dona Elvira was probably one of KoA's only friends/countrymen left to her after Arthur's death.  KoA was probably as desparate to keep Elvira around (what a name, btw!) as Elvira was to remain in England.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

June 12, 2011
5:18 pm
Avatar
Anne fan
Leicestershire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 123
Member Since:
February 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sorry to have come to this so late – a lost password!

 

I think the points everyone makes about Catherine being fairly clueless when it comes to sex are valid. Also Dona Elivira had an interest in lying.

 

There are two further points though:

1) After Arthur's death the queen's litter was sent for Catherine so she could travel back to London in easy stages, partly because she was recovering herself but also in case she was pregnant. So the English very definitely thought the marriage was consummated (I think Starkey is my source on that one).

2) I can see Catherine lying before the ecclesiastical court at Blackfriars because she would have felt a greater sin would be committed against the church, Mary and herself if she did not fight. However, she would never have lied in the confessional and then (as now) the secrecy of the confessional is absolute so she would have confessed and done penance for the lie before the Blackfriars court. As, indeed, she may have done penance 25 years earlier for going along with Dona Elvira's lie.

 

Henry may also have been fairly clueless. It is quite possible he was a virgin when he married Catherine – Henry VII let very few people even speak to him after Arthur died and we know that H8 was very frustrated he wasn't allowed to joust, so the chances of H7 letting a woman through may be fairly limited too.

July 12, 2011
12:25 pm
Avatar
anna123
Somerville, MA
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 5
Member Since:
July 12, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hmmm…   I want to say that she was a virgin, but in all honesty, I have to say that she probably wasn't. 

I can't think of any reason why Arthur and Catherine wouldn't consummate their marriage, they knew had to have a child, and both of them were reasonably healthy (Arthur might have been “frail”, but we don't know to what extent, right?).   

There were Arthur's claims that he had slept with her, which seem unreliable, but I don't think they are evidence either way, I mean, he wouldn't have boasted that he didn't consummate the marriage….   

Catherine was also so deeply religious that while I find it hard to believe that she would have sworn that she was a virgin if she was not, I also believe that she was so determined to hold on to her god given right to be queen that she may have believed it was gods will that she lie, in order to protect herself and her daughter.   

The only people who really knew were Arthur and Catherine, so it's really impossible to tell (without inventing time travel).   I personally don't care if she was a virgin or not.  If she lied about it, it was to protect herself and her daughter, and her position as queen.   Catherine was the sort of person to do what ever it takes, which I respect greatly.  She was a remarkable queen, an excellent mother and a strong woman, it shouldn't matter whether she consummated her first marriage or not.

I also love how to this day people are still debating the matter :).

July 13, 2011
2:31 am
Avatar
Jasmine
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 161
Member Since:
December 30, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

In the end, both Henry and Catherine back themselves into (opposite) corners – she couldn't admit she wasn't and he couldn't admit she was.

 

As far as my personal opinion is concerned, I feel Catherine wasn't a virgin, for reasons I explained in earlier posts. 

July 13, 2011
8:58 am
Avatar
Anne fan
Leicestershire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 123
Member Since:
February 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've had another thought on this one – what if CoA, being rather naive, tells Dona Elvira what happened (ie the marriage was consummated) and Dona Elvira tells her that there needs to be more?

 

Not quite sure what more but bearing in mind the church at the time insisted that the missionary position was the only non-sinful position (can't remember where I read that but I can remember my jaw hitting the floor) then it wouldn't take much for CoA to think she's no longer a virgin.

 

Twenty years later and you get both H8 and CoA insisting they're right – and neither of them is lying!

 

It does paint Dona Elvira as the villain of the piece but as we know she was desperate to maintain her posistion as CoA's duenna, not least because her brother was plotting against Ferdinand, I don't have too many problems with that.

July 15, 2011
7:39 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anne fan said:

I've had another thought on this one – what if CoA, being rather naive, tells Dona Elvira what happened (ie the marriage was consummated) and Dona Elvira tells her that there needs to be more?

 

Not quite sure what more but bearing in mind the church at the time insisted that the missionary position was the only non-sinful position (can't remember where I read that but I can remember my jaw hitting the floor) then it wouldn't take much for CoA to think she's no longer a virgin.

 

Twenty years later and you get both H8 and CoA insisting they're right – and neither of them is lying!

 

It does paint Dona Elvira as the villain of the piece but as we know she was desperate to maintain her posistion as CoA's duenna, not least because her brother was plotting against Ferdinand, I don't have too many problems with that.


Hi Anne fan,

I think that is exactly what happened.  Dona Elvira wanted to preserve her position and remain with Katherine.  I think Katherine did explain to Dona Elvira what happened and she told Katherine she was still a virgin. Eventually, Katherine had a huge argument with Dona Elvira and sent her packing. But Katherine was left believing she was a virgin. 

Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 70

Currently Online:
11 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2345

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 934

DuchessofBrittany: 847

Mya Elise: 782

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 426044

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1679

Posts: 23600

Newest Members:

darryluw16, jeannettefs16, HapunrU, levisthomas02, anntb60, normawe2

Administrators: Claire: 998