( shrug) not sure..I need to find my cite.

There were traditions in Europe where the wedding sheets were hung out of the windows to show the blood-stains.

MegC said:

However, I also think there's a very good possibility that KoA simply was entirely clueless about sex when it came to her marriage to Arthur.  I mean, I'm sure no one sat her down and explained to her what was going to happen on her wedding night.  She was young and most certainly a virgin on the day she wedded Arthur, and probably very naive regarding all things sex-related.  Perhaps she and Arthur fooled around (or even just kissed) but didn't actually have sex and she mistook that as loosing her virginity.  It may not have been until later, when she married Henry (and I think we'd all be a little naive to think he was a virgin on his wedding day to KoA) that she put two and two together.   Maybe when questioned prior to her marriage to H8 regarding her virginity, she truly believed she wasn't–and it wasn't until later (after her marriage to H8) that she realized she had, indeed, still been a virgin.  She wouldn't have been lying–merely uninformed and mistaken.

I believe it was David Starkey in his TV series on The Six Wives that he notes KOA's knowledge about sex was limited. It's been a long time since I watched this show, or read Starkey's six wives book. But I do recall a discussion about KOA possibly not truly understanding the concept of sex. If someone can quote this for sure, it would be most appreciated!

MegC, you've given me some food for thought!

Anyanka said:

 

Despite the reports of the blood-stained sheets being sent to Isabella and Ferdinand( trying to find the cite! I've had a long day…) , I think KoA was a virgin too.

Not the cite I remember reading, I'm still looking for that one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A…..e_of_Wales

This dispute, and Henry's inability to obtain papal dissolution of his marriage, would come to be a major cause of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E…..eformation

 

is one of several blogs talking about the sheets.

MegC said:

Ok, I don't know if KoA was a virgin or not.  I could easily be swayed either way as both arguments are convincing.  

However, I also think there's a very good possibility that KoA simply was entirely clueless about sex when it came to her marriage to Arthur.  I mean, I'm sure no one sat her down and explained to her what was going to happen on her wedding night.  She was young and most certainly a virgin on the day she wedded Arthur, and probably very naive regarding all things sex-related.  Perhaps she and Arthur fooled around (or even just kissed) but didn't actually have sex and she mistook that as loosing her virginity.  It may not have been until later, when she married Henry (and I think we'd all be a little naive to think he was a virgin on his wedding day to KoA) that she put two and two together.   Maybe when questioned prior to her marriage to H8 regarding her virginity, she truly believed she wasn't–and it wasn't until later (after her marriage to H8) that she realized she had, indeed, still been a virgin.  She wouldn't have been lying–merely uninformed and mistaken.

I know it sounds stupid, but even with a society as hyper-sexualized as ours is today, I still have students who are completely clueless about the ins and outs of sex.  Imagine if you were a female in a fairly repressed society where “good girls” didn't talk about such things–and your mom certainly wasn't going to discuss it with you outside of making the point that one of your primary roles as queen was to provide an heir–preferably male.  While I'm sure there were ways for KoA to go about finding such information, I don't get the impression that she would have sought it out.

And, let's be honest, Henry's assessment of KoA's virginity or lack thereof is ridiculous.  If he wanted KoA to be a virgin, she was, and if he didn't want her to be, she wasn't.  Simple as that.  Henry wasn't stupid or naive in the bedroom–he simply chose to believe what he wanted to believe.  

Now, let's pretend for two seconds that she DID lie.  A) KoA would NEVER have gone to her grave without confessing that and performing the appropriate penance.  B) I'm sure her confessor, whoever it was, was sympathetic to her ordeal and would never have told anyone.  And I don't think that KoA would have confessed such a thing to just ANYONE.  She was a devout Catholic, yes, but I think she was also shrewd and was careful of who she placed her trust and confidences in.  She loved her daughter and I truly do not believe that she would have confessed having lied to anyone who could have later come back and used that information against her or her daughter after her death.  

I have to agree with this.  There are many adults (much less teens) who have odd misconceptions about sexuality and sexual health. even in the present day.

Anyanka, I may have found what you were looking for in Starkey's, Six Wives.  There was a conversation between Wolsey and Katherine's Almoner, Dr Robert Shorten.  This happened the night before the renewal of the dispute.  Compeggio had arrived in England.  Wolsey asked Shorten questions concerning what Katherine may have heard of the legate's arrival.  Then the topic turned to the Queen's intentions.  Shorten goes on to tell him exactly what Katherine is going to say.  In retaliation Wolsey refutes point by point her arguments. “He went on at inordinate length, especially on the issue of the consummation of her first marriage with Arthur.  The Spanish Ambassadors, he claimed, 'did send the sheets they lay in, spotted with blood into Spain, in full testimony and proof thereof.' pg.219-221 of my paperback copy.  I couldn't find any mention of the said sheets being sent for, or being used against Katherine.

As to the bedding process, Starkey writes that first Katherine was undressed by her ladies and 'reverently laid and disposed' in the bed.  “The games over, a large group of nobles and clergy led as always by Oxford, conducted Arthur to the bedchamber, where he lay down beside Katherine.”  The bishops uttered the usual blessing over the marriage bed….”   “Finally with the blessings of the Church and the good wishes of their friends ringing in their ears, Arthur and Katherine were left alone.”  Starkey then says, “What happened then, only God knows.”  pgs 61-62

Shrewsbury, remembered accompanying Arthur to the wedding chamber and leaving him there.  He assumed the marriage was consummated.  Dorset, remembered Arthur getting into bed where Lady Katherine lay under the coverlet 'as the manner is of Queens in that behalf.'  He also assumed the marriage was consummated. Anthony Willoughby said Arthur claimed the next morning, 'bring me a cup of ale, for I have been this night in the midst of Spain.'  Later, the Prince had said openly: “Masters, it is good pastime to have a wife.”  Pgs 62-63

William Thomas, a groom of the Privy Chamber for three years attended the Prince at Ludlow. He prepared the Prince for the conjugal bed.  Thomas 'made him ready to bed and conducted him clad in his night gown unto the Princess's bedchamber door often and sundry times…' pg 76  Starkey then goes on to mention the testicular cancer theory.

One more thing and I'm doing this on memory, two men of Katherine's household told Isabella and Ferdinand that the marriage was consummated.   Dona Elvira, Lady-in-chief, to Katherine swore that Katherine was a virgin.  The men were recalled to Spain.  Many times when trying to decide what to do about Katherine, her parents inquired as to the state of their daughter's virginity in case she were to be sent home to wed eleswhere. 

I guess the thing that hangs me up is this:  They were married for six months, and I realize that for the last month or so of their marriage they were both very ill, but I can't believe that for the part where they were both healthy that they simply didn't have sex.  Especially when producing the heir to the throne was SOOOOO important for Katherine.  Katherine was, by all accounts, beautiful so I find it difficult that they wouldn't attempt consummation based on physical attraction.

Unless…

There was something going on with Arthur that we don't know about.  Possibilities include (but are certainly not limited to…):

1)  Arthur was gay maybe?  I simply don't believe this one.  I'm sure there were tons of homosexuals in Tudor England who managed to remain closeted and bear children.

2)  Arthur was suffering from some physical ailment which made him incapable of having sex–though not from lack of trying (if we are to believe the word of William Thomas).

3)  Both Arthur and Katherine were so shy and self-conscious that they couldn't bring themselves to do it.

As for the sheet thing, I can totally see why they would have taken the conjugal sheets and sent them to Spain.  It was proof that England had held up their end of the bargain, Katherine was wedded and bedded, and any alliance between them would remain intact.  Now, why Spain would want to hold on to those mangy sheets for 30 years, I don't know.  I mean, it's not something I would fold up and put in my hope chest, but whatever…

The blood part would have been easy to fake.  Katherine could have easily been on her period (sorry if TMI).  Or let's pretend for a minute that something happened and they weren't able to consummate the marriage that night.  If it were me, I'd be pretty damn frightened of what Arthur's dad was going to say when he found out, and you can be damn sure the whole Court was going to know about it, too.  Tongues would wag and Katherine would look like a failure which simply would not do for a Princess of Spain/future Queen of England.  She was enough of an outsider as it was–a Spanish princess in the English court, barely able to speak the language at that point.  I'd be ringing Dona Elvira pretty quickly to go down to the kitchen and get the blood of some poor butchered animal to put on the sheets and letting Arthur say whatever he needed to say to make himself look good.  I know it seems pretty far-fetched, but this is POLITICS we're talking about. 

MegC said:

 

The blood part would have been easy to fake.  Katherine could have easily been on her period (sorry if TMI).  Or let's pretend for a minute that something happened and they weren't able to consummate the marriage that night.  If it were me, I'd be pretty damn frightened of what Arthur's dad was going to say when he found out, and you can be damn sure the whole Court was going to know about it, too.  Tongues would wag and Katherine would look like a failure which simply would not do for a Princess of Spain/future Queen of England.  She was enough of an outsider as it was–a Spanish princess in the English court, barely able to speak the language at that point.  I'd be ringing Dona Elvira pretty quickly to go down to the kitchen and get the blood of some poor butchered animal to put on the sheets and letting Arthur say whatever he needed to say to make himself look good.  I know it seems pretty far-fetched, but this is POLITICS we're talking about. 

This is where it gets all tangled.  Wolsey claimed there were sheets sent to Spain with Katherine's blood on them proving the couple had consummated the marriage.  Dona Elvira claimed the opposite.  She said Katherine was still a virgin.  She made this claim after the death of Arthur. Why would Isabella and Ferdinand believe Dona Elvira if they had been sent the sheets proving otherwise? Someone is telling tales here.

One of the men who was recalled to Spain was Alassandro Geraldini at the encouragement of Dona Elvira.  He also happened to be Katherine's confessor. He wasn't talking. Starkey says, “Dona Elvira's own self-interested motives for insisting on her charges virginity (and hence Katherine's continuing dependant status) are also very clear.” She wanted the negotiations to continue so Katherine could remain in England and she wanted to remain in control of Katherine. 

Sharon said:

MegC said:

 

The blood part would have been easy to fake.  Katherine could have easily been on her period (sorry if TMI).  Or let's pretend for a minute that something happened and they weren't able to consummate the marriage that night.  If it were me, I'd be pretty damn frightened of what Arthur's dad was going to say when he found out, and you can be damn sure the whole Court was going to know about it, too.  Tongues would wag and Katherine would look like a failure which simply would not do for a Princess of Spain/future Queen of England.  She was enough of an outsider as it was–a Spanish princess in the English court, barely able to speak the language at that point.  I'd be ringing Dona Elvira pretty quickly to go down to the kitchen and get the blood of some poor butchered animal to put on the sheets and letting Arthur say whatever he needed to say to make himself look good.  I know it seems pretty far-fetched, but this is POLITICS we're talking about. 

---

This is where it gets all tangled.  Wolsey claimed there were sheets sent to Spain with Katherine's blood on them proving the couple had consummated the marriage.  Dona Elvira claimed the opposite.  She said Katherine was still a virgin.  She made this claim after the death of Arthur. Why would Isabella and Ferdinand believe Dona Elvira if they had been sent the sheets proving otherwise? Someone is telling tales here.
 

One of the men who was recalled to Spain was Alassandro Geraldini at the encouragement of Dona Elvira.  He also happened to be Katherine's confessor. He wasn't talking. Starkey says, “Dona Elvira's own self-interested motives for insisting on her charges virginity (and hence Katherine's continuing dependant status) are also very clear.” She wanted the negotiations to continue so Katherine could remain in England and she wanted to remain in control of Katherine. 

Excellent point about Dona Elvira!  Not only that, but Dona Elvira was probably one of KoA's only friends/countrymen left to her after Arthur's death.  KoA was probably as desparate to keep Elvira around (what a name, btw!) as Elvira was to remain in England.

Hmmm…   I want to say that she was a virgin, but in all honesty, I have to say that she probably wasn't. 

I can't think of any reason why Arthur and Catherine wouldn't consummate their marriage, they knew had to have a child, and both of them were reasonably healthy (Arthur might have been “frail”, but we don't know to what extent, right?).   

There were Arthur's claims that he had slept with her, which seem unreliable, but I don't think they are evidence either way, I mean, he wouldn't have boasted that he didn't consummate the marriage….   

Catherine was also so deeply religious that while I find it hard to believe that she would have sworn that she was a virgin if she was not, I also believe that she was so determined to hold on to her god given right to be queen that she may have believed it was gods will that she lie, in order to protect herself and her daughter.   

The only people who really knew were Arthur and Catherine, so it's really impossible to tell (without inventing time travel).   I personally don't care if she was a virgin or not.  If she lied about it, it was to protect herself and her daughter, and her position as queen.   Catherine was the sort of person to do what ever it takes, which I respect greatly.  She was a remarkable queen, an excellent mother and a strong woman, it shouldn't matter whether she consummated her first marriage or not.

I also love how to this day people are still debating the matter :).

I've had another thought on this one – what if CoA, being rather naive, tells Dona Elvira what happened (ie the marriage was consummated) and Dona Elvira tells her that there needs to be more?

Not quite sure what more but bearing in mind the church at the time insisted that the missionary position was the only non-sinful position (can't remember where I read that but I can remember my jaw hitting the floor) then it wouldn't take much for CoA to think she's no longer a virgin.

Twenty years later and you get both H8 and CoA insisting they're right – and neither of them is lying!

It does paint Dona Elvira as the villain of the piece but as we know she was desperate to maintain her posistion as CoA's duenna, not least because her brother was plotting against Ferdinand, I don't have too many problems with that.