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Was Katherine of Aragon a virgin?
August 26, 2014
6:34 pm
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Sharon
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The first papal dispensation said that they may have had sex or may not have. The word used was “perhaps”. Isabel didn’t like that one, and when she was ill, near death, the pope sent her a papal brief with a dispensation which was to be followed by a Bull, saying Katherine and Arthur did not have sexual relations. This is the one that was in Spain and Katherine secretly sent for it during the annulment proceedings.
If one verse of the Bible didn’t suit, another could be found that worked. This is what Henry did. He claimed Leviticus said he shouldn’t marry his brother’s wife and Deuteronomy, which I think was originally used for the annulment, said he should marry her.
Wolsey made up the bed sheet thing in a fit of anger. There were many lies being said about this first marriage at the time.
Katherine didn’t testify at Blackfriars. Other than the wonderful speech she gave while on her knees before her husband, she said nothing else. When she was done, she got up and walked out, never to return.

August 26, 2014
9:01 pm
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Hannele
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Boleyn said Another thing that blows the “not virgin” crap out of the water with H8 is because of the length of time he was married to K.O.A. If he had brought his so called doubts about the validity of the marriage in 1512 (alledgely the first time his conscious bit his backside about the marriage) the Pope may have listened to his arguement with a little more attention, and perhaps may have agreed that the marriage was invalid and therefore agreed to annul it, but to not bring/voice these doubts until 1527 15 years after the first teeth marks in fat boy’s bum appeared is without doubt a urine take.

That had nothing to do with the Pope’s decision. It was not unusual for him to let the kings or nobles to divorce, and it was usually quite easy to find (f.ex. pre-contract). But the Pope was influenced by Emperor, Catherine’s nephew.

August 26, 2014
9:13 pm
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Hannele
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Boleyn said
If Henry had backed down and given up on Anne when K.O.A died in 1536 Henry’s reputation at least would have some street cred in the marriage market of the europeon courts, even if he had married J.S, at her death there would perhaps been a bit of a wider choice of euro brides to choose from.

That he could not do and not only because Henry would never admit that he was wrong. He always blamed on the others.

Besides about the male heir, the question was about the supremacy of the king in all matters and getting money by breaking the monasteries.

August 26, 2014
9:39 pm
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Boleyn
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I have to admit Katherine’s speech at Blackfrairs was an apsolute wonderful piece of theatre. She is more or less saying to Henry “prove to the whole world I was not a virgin when you married me?” How could he say she wasn’t a virgin without humiliating himself.
Had he actually had a sexual relationship prior to marrying K.O.A and if he had, he would have to explain what gave him the impression that K.O.A wasn’t a virgin in short he would have had to explained why or how she felt different to a previous paramour when he first had sex with her. If he hadn’t and I suspect that he probably hadn’t given how his father and Grandmother kept him very closely confined before he came to the throne.
He may have had the odd dabble fumble as in touching a woman up, but i’m guessing he might just have bragged that he had dabble when in fact he hadn’t, just to make himself look like the real man in front of his pals… If that was the case then he too was a virgin on his wedding night with K.O.A, so he had no basis of comparrison in which to explain why he felt K.O.A wasn’t a virgin…
K.O.A’s blackfriars speech put the tin hat on Henry’s whole case/reasoning for the divorce/annulment, and made Henry look a complete tit.
Well done old girl.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 26, 2014
9:48 pm
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Boleyn
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Hannele said

Boleyn said Another thing that blows the “not virgin” crap out of the water with H8 is because of the length of time he was married to K.O.A. If he had brought his so called doubts about the validity of the marriage in 1512 (alledgely the first time his conscious bit his backside about the marriage) the Pope may have listened to his arguement with a little more attention, and perhaps may have agreed that the marriage was invalid and therefore agreed to annul it, but to not bring/voice these doubts until 1527 15 years after the first teeth marks in fat boy’s bum appeared is without doubt a urine take.

That had nothing to do with the Pope’s decision. It was not unusual for him to let the kings or nobles to divorce, and it was usually quite easy to find (f.ex. pre-contract). But the Pope was influenced by Emperor, Catherine’s nephew.

True, but I was thinking without K.O.A nephew putting his beak in. Again he may have agreed to Henry’s plan, but I think it would take a lot more to convince him than gossip that was over 20 years old.. Henry could have course bribed him, that was always a sure way of perhaps getting the decision he wanted. It didn’t always work mind you…

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 27, 2014
12:03 am
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Aud
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Boleyn said

It’s a difficult one to judge really whether or not K.O.A was a virgin, but I do find it strange that when H7 decided it would be better all round by and large to betroth Henry to K.O.A, that the Pope issued 2 dispensations to allow the marriage to take place.. In short they were contradictary. 1 dispensation took it for granted that Arthur’s marriage to K.O.A had been consumated whilst the other said it hadn’t.. I actually wonder if that was a tactic by H7 used as a rudimentary medievel form of a get out of marriage free card. H7 allowed the betrothal to go ahead but was all the while on the look out for a better and more profitable marriage for H Junior. If that dream became a reality for H7 he would have used the first dispenpensation to back out of the betrothal. As we know H7 did make H. Junior call into doubt his betrothal with K.O.A a few years after the betrothal, did anything come of that? and more to the point why did H7 make H Junior call it into doubt?
I actually wonder how H.Junior felt about being betrothed K.O.A. Junior wasn’t stupid even though he was only about 11 or 12 when he was told he was to marry K.O.A. Margeret Beaufort saw to it that Junior was well schooled in religious studies, it was said that he attended mass up to 7 times a day and probably in between times read the bible, so he would have been well versed about the Leviticus diatribe even then. In anycase somewhere in the bible there is another passage that says it is the duty of a man to marry his brothers wife so that the bloodline of his brother can continue, or some such fiddle faddle.
The bible anyway is very contradictary in it’s views, I’m not knocking it, for it does bring comfort to many people.
It’s just that when Junior became king in 1509 he would have been very aware of the morals and ethics of what marriage to K.O.A would have meant. If K.O.A was a virgin as she vehemently maintained during the divorce/annulment proceedings then Leviticus has apsolutely no role to play in the whole case. If she wasn’t then the passage (I forget where exactly) stating that it was expected for a man to marry his dead brothers wife also plays no part in the case because she maintained that she was virgin and therefore had done nothing wrong in the eyes of biblical law. H8 whole case as far as I can tell was solely based on the fact that he was desperate for a male child and used the bedroom gossip and snickering from over 20 years before to form the case.
As we know gossip and hearsay is inadmissible in court these days, a court case is based solely on facts and figures, things that can be proved not what is assumed (Dinosaur has a lovely saying about the word assume, “you should never assume anything because it makes an ASS out of U and ME”) and to be honest that is exactly what H8 did, he made a complete ass out of himself. Another thing that blows the “not virgin” crap out of the water with H8 is because of the length of time he was married to K.O.A. If he had brought his so called doubts about the validity of the marriage in 1512 (alledgely the first time his conscious bit his backside about the marriage) the Pope may have listened to his arguement with a little more attention, and perhaps may have agreed that the marriage was invalid and therefore agreed to annul it, but to not bring/voice these doubts until 1527 15 years after the first teeth marks in fat boy’s bum appeared is without doubt a urine take.

The length of time they were married in my opinion rendered their marriage legal anyway. The whole world saw K.O.A as Henry’s wife and Queen, and then suddenly Henry was telling the world “Whoops I may a mistake here Katherine isn’t my wife she’s my whore and has been since 1509” that isn’t just insulting it’s very humiliating. Although the humiliation bit is Henry’s, he’s admitting he’s a whoremonger and a gigelo of sorts. The insult bit does fall on K.O.A as Henry had insulted her by calling her his whore. I don’t blame K.O.A in the least for digging her heels in. A strong and determined woman who wasn’t going to allow a fat bastard to push her around. Her stubborn pride about the whole divorce/annulment matter in a way was to try and protect not just her daughter’s rights etc, but also to try a protect Henry’s honour in a way, by calling K.O.A a whore he had as I said called himself a whoremonger and a gigelo. By maintaining she was his true and lawful wife and getting the Pope to enforce that view she not only saved her own reputation but his too. If Henry had backed down and given up on Anne when K.O.A died in 1536 Henry’s reputation at least would have some street cred in the marriage market of the europeon courts, even if he had married J.S, at her death there would perhaps been a bit of a wider choice of euro brides to choose from. Not knocking A.O.C because I feel that if he had given his marriage a chance with her, they may have been quite happy, and there could have been a possibly of a Duke of York and a few spares, but I do feel that Cromwell chose the her because Cleves was a little known province in Germany and perhaps knew next to nothing about the court affairs in England. Certainly we know that Anne was let’s say not exactly enammored by Henry. Basically he was a stinky fat bastard, with a dicky leg and maybe a non working dicky too.

Anyway I digress (Nothing new) I do feel that K.O.A and Arthur had some form of sexual contact with each other, whether that was an attempt at penetrive sex, that didn’t work out too well or just very heavy petting I don’t know, but I think she possibily was a virgin when she married Henry, after all he would have known if she was a virgin or not when they were put to bed on their wedding night.
There is a rumour that Arthur and Katherines bed sheets had blood on them the morning after their wedding night.
I believe she explained that away when it was brought up at the blackfriars trial that she had pricked her heel and smeared blood on the sheets to confirm that she and Arthur had consumated their union. That kind of backs up my theory about the form of sexual contact, Arthur perhaps felt a little embarrassed that he hadn’t been able to do his duty that night and she pricked her hell etc to spare the ridicule he might have got if anyone found out that he couldn’t perform.

I always thought that the dispensation that was for either consummated or not, was just to cover all bases. As to the matter of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, a man wasn’t supposed to marry his brother’s wife period, the exception and the only exception being when the first brother dies without a child. I agree though, that Henry used this whole matter as an excuse to annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon.

August 27, 2014
7:52 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you Aud, the laughable case that Henry presented to the court to rid himself of K.O.A just boils down to one thing at the end of the day. It’s Hogwash..The Leviticus text states something like “If a man should marry his brother’s wife, it is an unclean thing for he has uncovered his brother’s nakedness and they will be childless” He took that entire text and changed it’s meaning to fit what he felt were the facts. To him the whole childless bit meant “no son”. If Mary had died at birth or in infancy then Henry would have had a better chance of perhaps of making his case believable, but even then I think it might have been a little bit on a sticky wicket, as there had been union between Henry and K.O.A it wasn’t her fault or his fault either that as K.O.A put it “By me you have had divers (many) children, although it has pleased God to call them out of this world” that sentence says it all there had been issue between them so they weren’t childless. Mary was very much alive, she may have been a girl but what was wrong with that? She could have given Henry a Grandson (and a few spares just in case) to rule after him. Henry could have married Mary to a man of his own choosing and been happy with a grandson or 2 or 3 to bounce on his knee.
I think the biblical translation actually means that the “brothers wife” would never become pregnant (God had punished them and rendered her infertile) K.O.A became pregnant many times, so therefore she proved that she was fecund, (fertile) the babies may have been lost, either at birth or shortly after or by miscarriage before term, but that was just one of those things back then, it was no-ones fault it just happened.
Child mortality rates were extremely high anyway didn’t matter who you were or how rich you were. Woman were expected to get pregnant as soon as they were able and continue to have babies until they either died themselves or were too old to have anymore. The more babies you had the more chance there was that at least 2 or 3 might make it through to adulthood.
It wasn’t uncommon for a woman to have her first baby at around the age of about 14 or 15, there were some who had them a little earlier Margaret Beaufort was alledgely 13 when she had Henry Tulip who as we know became H7. However the trauma of his birth at such a young age was difficult I believe and she nearly died as a result, which also resulted in her never being able to have further children.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 27, 2014
10:11 am
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Hannele
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Boleyn said Mary was very much alive, she may have been a girl but what was wrong with that? She could have given Henry a Grandson (and a few spares just in case) to rule after him. Henry could have married Mary to a man of his own choosing and been happy with a grandson or 2 or 3 to bounce on his knee.

According to Antonia Fraser, that was Henry’s plan for years. Especially alluring was the match with Emperor as Henry’s grandson would reign over half of Europe plus South America. But Emperor married a Portuguese princess instead for waiting Mary to grow up, and his “betrayal” spoiled the relationship between him and Henry and, as he was Katherine’s nephew, also her and Henry.

There was also plans to marry Mary to dauphin or King of Scots. Yet, these were not so advantageous, as a woman, even a Queen) was in marriage subject to her husband and this could mean a foreign rule. Of course, this would have been a case also if Mary had married Emperor, but evidently it troubled Henry less as there was other benefits.)

In any case, one heir was not enough, as was shown Arthur’s death. Therefore it is odd that after Mary had taken the Oath, Henry did not marry he off, even if he still regarded her as illegitimate.

There were children of Henry’s sisters, Margaret and Mary, but the King of Scots was a foreigner and the others were girls (save Mary’s son who died).

August 27, 2014
12:35 pm
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Boleyn
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This is why I said Henry could choose a suitable husband for Mary. Henry would have known that the English wouldn’t stomach a foriegn match for Mary, despite what K.O.A would have wanted for her.. I think she always hoped that Mary would marry Charles that way she could still have a link to her childhood in Spain via Mary. There were many English men of suitable rank to choose from at that time, as Henry hadn’t started to chop them up at that time, save for the Duke of Buckingham, he had already been chopped up.. After all Henry’s sister Mary was happily married to an English man. So when Mary was of marriable age which she was in 1528/9 she could have been married off to a suitable English men and could have possibily had a grandson in the royal cradle by 1531/2.
In the 1972 film of Henry 8th and his six wives, there is a scene in it where Anne says, “The Lady Mary should be married to a private Gentleman” In real life, Henry should have taken that advice and married Mary to an English gentle man. I still feel that the divorce with Katherine would have gone through and that all that happened afterwards would have happened, as Henry like many others felt that a woman ruler was no good. That in my opinion is Ballcocks, and Katherine proved that quite abley with Flodden when Henry went on his pub crawl around France.
But at least with Mary married to an English Gentleman after Edward’s death there would have been a possible Grandson or 2 to rule instead of her and Elizabeth.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 27, 2014
4:30 pm
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Hannele said

Boleyn said Mary was very much alive, she may have been a girl but what was wrong with that? She could have given Henry a Grandson (and a few spares just in case) to rule after him. Henry could have married Mary to a man of his own choosing and been happy with a grandson or 2 or 3 to bounce on his knee.

According to Antonia Fraser, that was Henry’s plan for years. Especially alluring was the match with Emperor as Henry’s grandson would reign over half of Europe plus South America. But Emperor married a Portuguese princess instead for waiting Mary to grow up, and his “betrayal” spoiled the relationship between him and Henry and, as he was Katherine’s nephew, also her and Henry.

There was also plans to marry Mary to dauphin or King of Scots. Yet, these were not so advantageous, as a woman, even a Queen) was in marriage subject to her husband and this could mean a foreign rule. Of course, this would have been a case also if Mary had married Emperor, but evidently it troubled Henry less as there was other benefits.)

In any case, one heir was not enough, as was shown Arthur’s death. Therefore it is odd that after Mary had taken the Oath, Henry did not marry he off, even if he still regarded her as illegitimate.

There were children of Henry’s sisters, Margaret and Mary, but the King of Scots was a foreigner and the others were girls (save Mary’s son who died).

There is a variety of opinion on why Mary was never married during her father’s reign, Leanda de Lisle makes a good case for Henry not wanting to marry her off because she was a threat. Then again the hypocritical fool was planning on distorting and twisting the line of succession so that his children, legitimate and illegitimate, would succeed before anyone else (Margaret Douglas, Frances and Eleanor Brandon). The idiot put all his eggs into one basket, and as a result the Tudor dynasty ended.

August 27, 2014
5:11 pm
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Great post Aud, Welcome to the forum by the way!

This brings me to why was Henry so forgiving of that scoundrel Brandon for marrying Mary? Brandon produced heirs that were rivals to the throne!

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 27, 2014
6:31 pm
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Boleyn said

This is why I said Henry could choose a suitable husband for Mary. Henry would have known that the English wouldn’t stomach a foriegn match for Mary, despite what K.O.A would have wanted for her.. I think she always hoped that Mary would marry Charles that way she could still have a link to her childhood in Spain via Mary. There were many English men of suitable rank to choose from at that time, as Henry hadn’t started to chop them up at that time, save for the Duke of Buckingham, he had already been chopped up.. After all Henry’s sister Mary was happily married to an English man. So when Mary was of marriable age which she was in 1528/9 she could have been married off to a suitable English men and could have possibily had a grandson in the royal cradle by 1531/2.
In the 1972 film of Henry 8th and his six wives, there is a scene in it where Anne says, “The Lady Mary should be married to a private Gentleman” In real life, Henry should have taken that advice and married Mary to an English gentle man. I still feel that the divorce with Katherine would have gone through and that all that happened afterwards would have happened, as Henry like many others felt that a woman ruler was no good. That in my opinion is Ballcocks, and Katherine proved that quite abley with Flodden when Henry went on his pub crawl around France.
But at least with Mary married to an English Gentleman after Edward’s death there would have been a possible Grandson or 2 to rule instead of her and Elizabeth.

Normally the purpose of royal marriages was, besides to get a heir, to create foreign alliances. Such were the first marriages of Henry’s sisters, Margaret and Mary to kings of Scotland and France. It was only after as widows they married beneath their status, Margaret with two Scottish earls and Mary with duke of Suffolk (in haste without Henry’s permission knowing that he would not give it if asked beforehand).

Marrying a subject was not without dangers as it created jealousy among other families in equal rank. Later in Scotland the turmoil was such that Mary Stuart had to flee to England.

Also, when Henry VII married off younger sisters of his wife Elizabeth of York and their cousin Margaret (countess of Salisbury) he clearly tried to
chose men who were loyal and whose rank was not so high that their children could not become a threat – and yet he failed (or so it at least seemed to Henry VIII).

All in all, marrying off Mary was not an easy task. One psychological reason was perhaps that Henry was unwilling to admit that he was no more young – a father of a young child seems young, a grandfather seems old.

August 27, 2014
6:42 pm
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LadyPrincess said

Great post Aud, Welcome to the forum by the way!

This brings me to why was Henry so forgiving of that scoundrel Brandon for marrying Mary? Brandon produced heirs that were rivals to the throne!

Thanks LadyPrincess! As for the situation with Charles Brandon and Mary Tudor, the Queen of France, I would say that the Henry of the 1510’s was more “lenient” than the one of his later reign. That’s not to say he didn’t kill people or wasn’t ruthless, just not as bad as he became. I have read that Brandon was going to be killed, but then Wolsey intervened and the couple were fined. And Brandon was close to Henry VIII, so I suppose in this rare instance, that it counted. And Brandon had two daughters and one son by Mary who died in 1533/1532? so his offspring wasn’t too much of a threat. Mary herself was also a supported of KOA, so I don’t think Henry had too worry too much in regards to the Brandons.

August 27, 2014
6:47 pm
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You’re right. Plus Henry did get to keep Mary’s jewels from France.

Charles wrote to Wolsey when he went to France and explained that Francis expressed Mary’s desire to marry him (Brandon) and Wolsey helped him by calming down Henry and to see the advangtages. Then Brandon betrayed Wolsey during the divorce proceedings!

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 27, 2014
6:58 pm
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Boleyn said

It wasn’t uncommon for a woman to have her first baby at around the age of about 14 or 15, there were some who had them a little earlier Margaret Beaufort was alledgely 13 when she had Henry Tulip who as we know became H7. However the trauma of his birth at such a young age was difficult I believe and she nearly died as a result, which also resulted in her never being able to have further children.

It was only commonish amongst high ranking families to marry and reproduce young.

Your average craftsman had to be a journey-man before he could contemplate marriage making him in his early to mid twenties. Likewise ny male who needed to set up a career in law or as a merchant was in his 20’s too. Pre-teen girls tended to help out at home and in the family business while older girls or rather women often worked outside the home bringing in valuble extra money or goods. Young couples of the lower classes have historically tended to wait for finacial security before marriage.

It's always bunnies.

August 28, 2014
4:18 pm
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Hannele said

Boleyn said

This is why I said Henry could choose a suitable husband for Mary. Henry would have known that the English wouldn’t stomach a foriegn match for Mary, despite what K.O.A would have wanted for her.. I think she always hoped that Mary would marry Charles that way she could still have a link to her childhood in Spain via Mary. There were many English men of suitable rank to choose from at that time, as Henry hadn’t started to chop them up at that time, save for the Duke of Buckingham, he had already been chopped up.. After all Henry’s sister Mary was happily married to an English man. So when Mary was of marriable age which she was in 1528/9 she could have been married off to a suitable English men and could have possibily had a grandson in the royal cradle by 1531/2.
In the 1972 film of Henry 8th and his six wives, there is a scene in it where Anne says, “The Lady Mary should be married to a private Gentleman” In real life, Henry should have taken that advice and married Mary to an English gentle man. I still feel that the divorce with Katherine would have gone through and that all that happened afterwards would have happened, as Henry like many others felt that a woman ruler was no good. That in my opinion is Ballcocks, and Katherine proved that quite abley with Flodden when Henry went on his pub crawl around France.
But at least with Mary married to an English Gentleman after Edward’s death there would have been a possible Grandson or 2 to rule instead of her and Elizabeth.

Normally the purpose of royal marriages was, besides to get a heir, to create foreign alliances. Such were the first marriages of Henry’s sisters, Margaret and Mary to kings of Scotland and France. It was only after as widows they married beneath their status, Margaret with two Scottish earls and Mary with duke of Suffolk (in haste without Henry’s permission knowing that he would not give it if asked beforehand).

Marrying a subject was not without dangers as it created jealousy among other families in equal rank. Later in Scotland the turmoil was such that Mary Stuart had to flee to England.

Also, when Henry VII married off younger sisters of his wife Elizabeth of York and their cousin Margaret (countess of Salisbury) he clearly tried to
chose men who were loyal and whose rank was not so high that their children could not become a threat – and yet he failed (or so it at least seemed to Henry VIII).

All in all, marrying off Mary was not an easy task. One psychological reason was perhaps that Henry was unwilling to admit that he was no more young – a father of a young child seems young, a grandfather seems old.

This is true Hannell, but Aud makes a very good point too (Good One Aud) It is because of Henry’s narrow minded and obsessive view of fathering a son, that he forgot that the Tudor dynasty bloodline still had a back up plan. We all know that Henry had an abborence at the idea of a foriegn ruler being allowed, being within prodding room of him with a shitty stick, let alone sat of the royal potty with his daughter, after he was chucked on the compost heap, but this view was a very selfish view. he wasn’t thinking of anything let alone the Tudor bloodline, he just wanted a son, to actually not so much continue the bloodline, but to prove that his actions towards K.O.A were fully justified. it was a kind of game of oneupmanship with him. After Edward was born he was so caught up in the fact that he now had his little boy he once forget everything else. He’d got his son “Yay lets all put the flags out and throw our tin hats in the air”
He took it completely forgranted that 1 children can die. and 2 that Jane would die she had given him one son so there were going to be others. It was just a matter of waiting the obligrity 6 weeks and then it would be party time in the bedroom again. When Jane died it hit home just how fragile human life actually was, but he still simply refused to see the wood for the trees, he had got his son and nothing else mattered. After he had perhaps had time to think about it, when Henry decided to get shot of K.O.A, Anne was already lined up for his next victim, when Anne betrayed him (his thoughts) he already had Jane lined up for his next victim. After her death he realised perhaps for the first time in his life he was truly alone, and that the whole Tudor dynasty on the shoulders of one child, when in fact if he had been thinking straight it rested on 3 children and one of them was of marriageable age (although Mary would have been considered old by Tudor standards) and as I said could have married her to an English gentleman etc. But instead of that he went into ultra panic mode and said “I’ve got to get more sons and fast” I don’t think Anne of Cleves was actually a bad choice for Henry, but he didn’t see it that way. I do think however it was good that they became quite affable towards one another and she certainly didn’t suffer as his other wives did although it did cost her, her German family which perhaps wasn’t such a bad thing if the rumours are to believed of her home life in Germany being not exactly pleasent. K.H was chosen for his next victim purely on the basis that 1 she was young and pretty and had many years of childbirth in front of her so more chances to get a son or 2 or even 3 in the nursery. 2 because once again Henry was playing the old I’m better than you game with Francois. Francois was if my lousy memory serves (wherever it is at the moment, as it’s buggered off AGAIN!!!!!) was married to Eleanor of Spain, the sister of the Holy Roman Emperor, so his marriage to K.H was to prove that he still had what it took and was sexy enough to pull the birds and was also drawing a direct comparrison to the fact that Francois was stuck with an ugly old Spanish bag, a marriage which I believe came about through a political allience to prevent France from poking it’s beak in to Spanish terretory. Henry didn’t need to make political matches to prevent threats to his country, he could marry anyone he wished. When his marriage to K.H bit the headman’s axe, apart from being made like a laughing stock all over England, he opened himself to no end of ridicule from the rest of the world. King Francois I believe wrote a letter to Henry to say how sorry he was “to hear of the wanton and naughty behaviour of the Queen” a letter that made Henry go and give the French ambassador a good clobbering to for bringing it to him” I think he realised he had seriously screwed up in not allowing Mary to marry sooner, if he had married her say in 1533 to a suitable english man she could have theorecially had 4 children and maybe more in the royal nursery and as I said a couple of them may have been boys. If we take that as a for instance, when Edward died in 1553 one of Mary boys could have been about 18 and could have taken the throne and thus continued the Tudor line. He could have married her to someone in 1542 after K.H date with the axe man but a child or to me precise a boy would be still be a child when Henry and Edward died, and child rulers were as much to be feared as woman were as rulers. Plus the fact Mary would be considered for regent so in affect she would rule anyway. So he would have or rather England would have had the 2 things they feared the most a child and a woman regent. He would have seen and known exactly how troublesome that had been as his sister Margaret had been regent for her son Jimbo 5th after Flodden and that wasn’t a very happy time at all for the Scottish people. Her re-marriage was perhaps the saving grace for Scotland at that time, as the regency council used it as an excuse to get shot of her.
I don’t believe that Henry married K.P in a hope to procreate I think he realised that it would be unlikely that would happen given that in the 2 years of his marriage to K.H there was no hint of a preganacy, and certainly that due to K.H’s prior marriages there was no hint of her ever being preganant. His marriage to K.P was really just so that he wouldn’t die alone, and to be honest I think his conscious deeply troubled him that K.O.A had done just that. I do feel that perhaps in the last few months of his life he realised just how good a wife K.O.A had been to him, despite his unwavering belief that she wasn’t truly his wife in the first place, and her lack to produce the son he so wanted proved that.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 29, 2014
4:24 pm
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Boleyn said

Hannele said

Boleyn said

This is why I said Henry could choose a suitable husband for Mary. Henry would have known that the English wouldn’t stomach a foriegn match for Mary, despite what K.O.A would have wanted for her.. I think she always hoped that Mary would marry Charles that way she could still have a link to her childhood in Spain via Mary. There were many English men of suitable rank to choose from at that time, as Henry hadn’t started to chop them up at that time, save for the Duke of Buckingham, he had already been chopped up.. After all Henry’s sister Mary was happily married to an English man. So when Mary was of marriable age which she was in 1528/9 she could have been married off to a suitable English men and could have possibily had a grandson in the royal cradle by 1531/2.
In the 1972 film of Henry 8th and his six wives, there is a scene in it where Anne says, “The Lady Mary should be married to a private Gentleman” In real life, Henry should have taken that advice and married Mary to an English gentle man. I still feel that the divorce with Katherine would have gone through and that all that happened afterwards would have happened, as Henry like many others felt that a woman ruler was no good. That in my opinion is Ballcocks, and Katherine proved that quite abley with Flodden when Henry went on his pub crawl around France.
But at least with Mary married to an English Gentleman after Edward’s death there would have been a possible Grandson or 2 to rule instead of her and Elizabeth.

Normally the purpose of royal marriages was, besides to get a heir, to create foreign alliances. Such were the first marriages of Henry’s sisters, Margaret and Mary to kings of Scotland and France. It was only after as widows they married beneath their status, Margaret with two Scottish earls and Mary with duke of Suffolk (in haste without Henry’s permission knowing that he would not give it if asked beforehand).

Marrying a subject was not without dangers as it created jealousy among other families in equal rank. Later in Scotland the turmoil was such that Mary Stuart had to flee to England.

Also, when Henry VII married off younger sisters of his wife Elizabeth of York and their cousin Margaret (countess of Salisbury) he clearly tried to
chose men who were loyal and whose rank was not so high that their children could not become a threat – and yet he failed (or so it at least seemed to Henry VIII).

All in all, marrying off Mary was not an easy task. One psychological reason was perhaps that Henry was unwilling to admit that he was no more young – a father of a young child seems young, a grandfather seems old.

This is true Hannell, but Aud makes a very good point too (Good One Aud) It is because of Henry’s narrow minded and obsessive view of fathering a son, that he forgot that the Tudor dynasty bloodline still had a back up plan. We all know that Henry had an abborence at the idea of a foriegn ruler being allowed, being within prodding room of him with a shitty stick, let alone sat of the royal potty with his daughter, after he was chucked on the compost heap, but this view was a very selfish view. he wasn’t thinking of anything let alone the Tudor bloodline, he just wanted a son, to actually not so much continue the bloodline, but to prove that his actions towards K.O.A were fully justified. it was a kind of game of oneupmanship with him. After Edward was born he was so caught up in the fact that he now had his little boy he once forget everything else. He’d got his son “Yay lets all put the flags out and throw our tin hats in the air”
He took it completely forgranted that 1 children can die. and 2 that Jane would die she had given him one son so there were going to be others. It was just a matter of waiting the obligrity 6 weeks and then it would be party time in the bedroom again. When Jane died it hit home just how fragile human life actually was, but he still simply refused to see the wood for the trees, he had got his son and nothing else mattered. After he had perhaps had time to think about it, when Henry decided to get shot of K.O.A, Anne was already lined up for his next victim, when Anne betrayed him (his thoughts) he already had Jane lined up for his next victim. After her death he realised perhaps for the first time in his life he was truly alone, and that the whole Tudor dynasty on the shoulders of one child, when in fact if he had been thinking straight it rested on 3 children and one of them was of marriageable age (although Mary would have been considered old by Tudor standards) and as I said could have married her to an English gentleman etc. But instead of that he went into ultra panic mode and said “I’ve got to get more sons and fast” I don’t think Anne of Cleves was actually a bad choice for Henry, but he didn’t see it that way. I do think however it was good that they became quite affable towards one another and she certainly didn’t suffer as his other wives did although it did cost her, her German family which perhaps wasn’t such a bad thing if the rumours are to believed of her home life in Germany being not exactly pleasent. K.H was chosen for his next victim purely on the basis that 1 she was young and pretty and had many years of childbirth in front of her so more chances to get a son or 2 or even 3 in the nursery. 2 because once again Henry was playing the old I’m better than you game with Francois. Francois was if my lousy memory serves (wherever it is at the moment, as it’s buggered off AGAIN!!!!!) was married to Eleanor of Spain, the sister of the Holy Roman Emperor, so his marriage to K.H was to prove that he still had what it took and was sexy enough to pull the birds and was also drawing a direct comparrison to the fact that Francois was stuck with an ugly old Spanish bag, a marriage which I believe came about through a political allience to prevent France from poking it’s beak in to Spanish terretory. Henry didn’t need to make political matches to prevent threats to his country, he could marry anyone he wished. When his marriage to K.H bit the headman’s axe, apart from being made like a laughing stock all over England, he opened himself to no end of ridicule from the rest of the world. King Francois I believe wrote a letter to Henry to say how sorry he was “to hear of the wanton and naughty behaviour of the Queen” a letter that made Henry go and give the French ambassador a good clobbering to for bringing it to him” I think he realised he had seriously screwed up in not allowing Mary to marry sooner, if he had married her say in 1533 to a suitable english man she could have theorecially had 4 children and maybe more in the royal nursery and as I said a couple of them may have been boys. If we take that as a for instance, when Edward died in 1553 one of Mary boys could have been about 18 and could have taken the throne and thus continued the Tudor line. He could have married her to someone in 1542 after K.H date with the axe man but a child or to me precise a boy would be still be a child when Henry and Edward died, and child rulers were as much to be feared as woman were as rulers. Plus the fact Mary would be considered for regent so in affect she would rule anyway. So he would have or rather England would have had the 2 things they feared the most a child and a woman regent. He would have seen and known exactly how troublesome that had been as his sister Margaret had been regent for her son Jimbo 5th after Flodden and that wasn’t a very happy time at all for the Scottish people. Her re-marriage was perhaps the saving grace for Scotland at that time, as the regency council used it as an excuse to get shot of her.
I don’t believe that Henry married K.P in a hope to procreate I think he realised that it would be unlikely that would happen given that in the 2 years of his marriage to K.H there was no hint of a preganacy, and certainly that due to K.H’s prior marriages there was no hint of her ever being preganant. His marriage to K.P was really just so that he wouldn’t die alone, and to be honest I think his conscious deeply troubled him that K.O.A had done just that. I do feel that perhaps in the last few months of his life he realised just how good a wife K.O.A had been to him, despite his unwavering belief that she wasn’t truly his wife in the first place, and her lack to produce the son he so wanted proved that.

Thank you, I always wondered how Henry could “forget” that he himself was a second son, so necessarily it wasn’t a smart thing to put all his hopes in Edward. Just think, if he had married Mary off after they had reconciled, she could have given him a few grandsons and granddaughters. And he could have given those grandsons the name of Tudor, so the name would continue. I too think he had a good woman in KOA, just think if he had remained married to her until 1536 (she died of cancer), then he probably wouldn’t have injured himself celebrating her death during a joust, and he could have married Anne or Jane or whomever, and probably would have gotten some sons as he would have been healthier.

August 29, 2014
6:37 pm
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It’s very likely that K.O.A died of Cancer, as the doctors at the time did say that at the centre of her heart there was a hard black core or mass that when they washed it didn’t disappear. But I do have to ask why did the doctor actually cut her heart open anyway? It was customary (although the practise wasn’t widely carried out much after the early Plantaganant era) that Kings and Queen and the odd noble or 2 would request that their hearts be buried elsewhere, such as places that were (pardon the pun) close to their hearts or had some special meaning to them. I.e perhaps the in the same grave as their Parents or their place of birth if they weren’t of English origin. So one has to wonder for what reason and more to the point why K.O.A heart was removed and where is it buried. I would like to think that perhaps she made a request just before she died that her heart was to be buried with her mother in Spain, but whether this actually happened and if Henry would have allowed it anyway I don’t know.

Henry’s jousting accident of 1536 wasn’t the first time he’d actually had that type of accident, I believe he had the first one in 1526/7 or around that time. It wasn’t as serious as the 1536 one but it was perhaps enough to damage him to the point where he really hadn’t got the full strength he used to have before the joust. Certainly I feel the first one was the start of the the leg trouble he suffered for the rest of his life, and the second one just made a bad situation even worse. I’m still in 2 minds to whether you can call the festivities of 1536 a celebration of K.O.A’s death the bright yellow dress code seems to imply that it was, but actually bright yellow was the colour of mourning for a member of Spanish royalty, so in a way Henry’s dressing in bright yellow was as a mark of respect towards a woman who had shared part of his life. Anne of course did view it in a very different way to her it was a case of “ding dong the wicked witch is dead and now I really am truly Queen” the shadow that she had lived under for the last 3 years of people saying that she was usurper and an whore was lifted, so you can understand her elation. Henry however might have viewed her “celebration” as perhaps in a little bad taste but again understood her elation but may have been a little narked that she didn’t keep her elation down to a dull roar and at least show the proper respect due to K.O.A in important court situations, and especially in front of court ambassadors. Yes he too may have felt that at long last as he said “we are now free from all threat of war” but even so I still think that Henry felt a considerable amount of greif for her passing who as I said had shared a considerable par of his life. He had known her after all from 1502 when he was about 10 years old, and I rather think at times that is forgotten, 34 years or there about and a lot had happened between them good and bad during that time. So he probably had some very fond memories of her even if the latter years weren’t so good between them. Their marriage from the start was popular with the people but I also feel that their relationship with each other was one of great freindship and love too basically because during the years of her widowhood and his king in waiting years they got to know each other very well, and K.O.A knew exactly how to flatter him and encourage him not to act rashly when someone got up his bugle over something or in all likelyhood he would have become a bloody tyrant a lot earlier on in his reign, without her to curb his temper and listen to reason. If my memory serves, (It’s a bit wooly today) I’ve read some where that something happened in around 1517? where Henry was insulted or something and had ordered the deaths deaths of the people responsible. Margaret and Mary his sisters and K.O.A all threw themselves down at his feet and begged Henry for mercy to spare the lives of the people who had insulted him. At That time of course Henry was still pretty much an ok sort of chap and Margaret, Mary and K.O.A actions appealed to his sence of knightly valour and he spared their lives. I also feel that K.O.A wise council to him at times was very affective. (By the way the 3 queens begging for justice wasn’t the first time it was used. if i have remembered rightly the same sort of thing happened during the reign of Edward 3rd when his wife and 2 of her maids or his sisters begged for for the lives of some London Burgemeisters when a stand collapsed, during a Court tourlament killing a number of people, it worked their lives were spared.)
So in affect I do feel that K.O.A’d death affected Henry more emotionally than people actually realise, and perhaps this was part of the catalyst, which may of helped to form his later behaviour, his temper tantrums may have been a way of venting the greif he felt at her loss. e perhaps realised the full extent of her loss after the death of K.H. Greif is a funny thing sometimes it can take years to except or come to terms with the loss of a loved one if they can come to terms at all. It can also make a person act in a very errational and illogical way, rage and bouts of depression are quite common in most people, Rage in the sence of that God/s have taken away the person away from you and depression because you will never again see that person.
Look at the way Queen Victoria dealt with Albert’s death, she simply refused to believe he had gone, I believe she still talked to him, and certainly she gave orders that his clothes were laid out every morning and that his servants were to behave as if he was still alive, and she was only really shook from her deep depression, by the intervention of John Brown, who perhaps gave her a reason to go on living. We know that she became very fond of him and it’s said that when he died she mourned him but knew that she had to honour his memory by continuing to reign supreme. It’s also said that she was buried with a small picture of him and a lock of his hair.
I don’t believe that as humans we ever really except the death of a loved one, we just get used to them not being there, and at times we do tend to have a little hissy fit when something doesn’t go quite as we planned it and say something like “Damn it I wish so and so was here, they would know what to do” When to tell the truth they probably didn’t know how to solve the problem any better anyway. I do feel that, that may have been part of Henry’s rages a sort of “If only Kathy was here she would know what to do” K.O.A was the woman who knew him better than anyone else and I think he missed her, although he would never admit it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 30, 2014
6:21 am
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Boleyn said

It’s very likely that K.O.A died of Cancer, as the doctors at the time did say that at the centre of her heart there was a hard black core or mass that when they washed it didn’t disappear. But I do have to ask why did the doctor actually cut her heart open anyway? It was customary (although the practise wasn’t widely carried out much after the early Plantaganant era) that Kings and Queen and the odd noble or 2 would request that their hearts be buried elsewhere, such as places that were (pardon the pun) close to their hearts or had some special meaning to them. I.e perhaps the in the same grave as their Parents or their place of birth if they weren’t of English origin. So one has to wonder for what reason and more to the point why K.O.A heart was removed and where is it buried. I would like to think that perhaps she made a request just before she died that her heart was to be buried with her mother in Spain, but whether this actually happened and if Henry would have allowed it anyway I don’t know.

Henry’s jousting accident of 1536 wasn’t the first time he’d actually had that type of accident, I believe he had the first one in 1526/7 or around that time. It wasn’t as serious as the 1536 one but it was perhaps enough to damage him to the point where he really hadn’t got the full strength he used to have before the joust. Certainly I feel the first one was the start of the the leg trouble he suffered for the rest of his life, and the second one just made a bad situation even worse. I’m still in 2 minds to whether you can call the festivities of 1536 a celebration of K.O.A’s death the bright yellow dress code seems to imply that it was, but actually bright yellow was the colour of mourning for a member of Spanish royalty, so in a way Henry’s dressing in bright yellow was as a mark of respect towards a woman who had shared part of his life. Anne of course did view it in a very different way to her it was a case of “ding dong the wicked witch is dead and now I really am truly Queen” the shadow that she had lived under for the last 3 years of people saying that she was usurper and an whore was lifted, so you can understand her elation. Henry however might have viewed her “celebration” as perhaps in a little bad taste but again understood her elation but may have been a little narked that she didn’t keep her elation down to a dull roar and at least show the proper respect due to K.O.A in important court situations, and especially in front of court ambassadors. Yes he too may have felt that at long last as he said “we are now free from all threat of war” but even so I still think that Henry felt a considerable amount of greif for her passing who as I said had shared a considerable par of his life. He had known her after all from 1502 when he was about 10 years old, and I rather think at times that is forgotten, 34 years or there about and a lot had happened between them good and bad during that time. So he probably had some very fond memories of her even if the latter years weren’t so good between them. Their marriage from the start was popular with the people but I also feel that their relationship with each other was one of great freindship and love too basically because during the years of her widowhood and his king in waiting years they got to know each other very well, and K.O.A knew exactly how to flatter him and encourage him not to act rashly when someone got up his bugle over something or in all likelyhood he would have become a bloody tyrant a lot earlier on in his reign, without her to curb his temper and listen to reason. If my memory serves, (It’s a bit wooly today) I’ve read some where that something happened in around 1517? where Henry was insulted or something and had ordered the deaths deaths of the people responsible. Margaret and Mary his sisters and K.O.A all threw themselves down at his feet and begged Henry for mercy to spare the lives of the people who had insulted him. At That time of course Henry was still pretty much an ok sort of chap and Margaret, Mary and K.O.A actions appealed to his sence of knightly valour and he spared their lives. I also feel that K.O.A wise council to him at times was very affective. (By the way the 3 queens begging for justice wasn’t the first time it was used. if i have remembered rightly the same sort of thing happened during the reign of Edward 3rd when his wife and 2 of her maids or his sisters begged for for the lives of some London Burgemeisters when a stand collapsed, during a Court tourlament killing a number of people, it worked their lives were spared.)
So in affect I do feel that K.O.A’d death affected Henry more emotionally than people actually realise, and perhaps this was part of the catalyst, which may of helped to form his later behaviour, his temper tantrums may have been a way of venting the greif he felt at her loss. e perhaps realised the full extent of her loss after the death of K.H. Greif is a funny thing sometimes it can take years to except or come to terms with the loss of a loved one if they can come to terms at all. It can also make a person act in a very errational and illogical way, rage and bouts of depression are quite common in most people, Rage in the sence of that God/s have taken away the person away from you and depression because you will never again see that person.
Look at the way Queen Victoria dealt with Albert’s death, she simply refused to believe he had gone, I believe she still talked to him, and certainly she gave orders that his clothes were laid out every morning and that his servants were to behave as if he was still alive, and she was only really shook from her deep depression, by the intervention of John Brown, who perhaps gave her a reason to go on living. We know that she became very fond of him and it’s said that when he died she mourned him but knew that she had to honour his memory by continuing to reign supreme. It’s also said that she was buried with a small picture of him and a lock of his hair.
I don’t believe that as humans we ever really except the death of a loved one, we just get used to them not being there, and at times we do tend to have a little hissy fit when something doesn’t go quite as we planned it and say something like “Damn it I wish so and so was here, they would know what to do” When to tell the truth they probably didn’t know how to solve the problem any better anyway. I do feel that, that may have been part of Henry’s rages a sort of “If only Kathy was here she would know what to do” K.O.A was the woman who knew him better than anyone else and I think he missed her, although he would never admit it.

Yellow is not the Spanish color of mourning, it was a celebration on both Henry and Anne’s parts. Also Henry offered to send Chapuys black cloth for mourning. Why not yellow if it was a sign of mourning? In Europe during the Medieval/Early Modern I have heard of two mourning colors, black or white.

The first jousting incident Henry had was when he left his visor up and Charles Brandon’s lance crashed into an area right above his eye which gave him bad migraines. I believe this was in 1524. Henry had developed a leg ulcer previous to 1536, but one of his physicians had healed it and it did not trouble him again. This was in the year 1527.

Henry and KOA’s marriage was certainly one of respect and affection and perhaps even love, at least in the early years of their marriage. Did he miss her or grieve over her in 1536? I doubt it, and if he did, he definitely made sure know one knew of his true feelings.
And if he mourned her or missed her:
Well that is just too bad Henry! (Sorry, don’t have an ounce of sympathy for this man).

You speak of the Evil May Day of 1517 where there was a rebellion because Londoners were angry at the foreigners that populated their city. I know KOA was there to intercede for them, I have heard Margaret and Mary were there, but on the other hand I have read that by this time Margaret was back in Scotland and Mary was in Suffolk, I believe.

And yes, KOA advised Henry VIII, especially during the early years of the marriage, it was said that Henry wouldn’t make a decision without the Queen seeing the proposal. However that decreased after Ferdinand’s treachery (1515? can’t remember off the top of my head), her advice was not as wanted nor was it heeded much. However there were times when KOA had some influence over her husband. The Evil May Day scenario is an example and when there was talk of a French match for Princess Mary, KOA summoned her own councilors to discuss the issue. So she wasn’t completely out of politics.

August 30, 2014
8:42 am
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Aud said

Henry and KOA’s marriage was certainly one of respect and affection and perhaps even love, at least in the early years of their marriage. Did he miss her or grieve over her in 1536? I doubt it, and if he did, he definitely made sure know one knew of his true feelings.
And if he mourned her or missed her:
Well that is just too bad Henry! (Sorry, don’t have an ounce of sympathy for this man).

You speak of the Evil May Day of 1517 where there was a rebellion because Londoners were angry at the foreigners that populated their city. I know KOA was there to intercede for them, I have heard Margaret and Mary were there, but on the other hand I have read that by this time Margaret was back in Scotland and Mary was in Suffolk, I believe.

And yes, KOA advised Henry VIII, especially during the early years of the marriage, it was said that Henry wouldn’t make a decision without the Queen seeing the proposal. However that decreased after Ferdinand’s treachery (1515? can’t remember off the top of my head), her advice was not as wanted nor was it heeded much. However there were times when KOA had some influence over her husband. The Evil May Day scenario is an example and when there was talk of a French match for Princess Mary, KOA summoned her own councilors to discuss the issue. So she wasn’t completely out of politics.

KOA certainly influenced on Henry in the early early of marriage. After all, he was an inexperienced sheltered youth and she was six years older and a daughter of famous royal parents and he greatly respected his father.

However, Evil May Day is not the best example of her influence. It was likely to be a staged performance whose result was known beforehand: the King must be seen stern against evildoers and wholly in control to keep peace in his realm, so if he wanted to show mercy, he acted as if he only did so to please his Queen. Of course, it is possible that KOA had pleaded for mercy in private and Henry relented.

It was natural that when Henry grew older and had more experience, KOA’s influence waned and perhaps he even began to resent it like a grown son does towards his interfering mother. In addition, the position of the foreign queen was always difficult that she must decide whose interest she wanted to promote, those of her native country or her adoptive country.

Theoretically, the queen could have become the best helpmate of the king, the only one he could have trusted to promote his interests above all else and to speak the truth all else were afraid to say. But the perception of the time was against it as Bible taught that the husband was the head of the wife, and Henry was a man of the times. It was only with Anne that he had at least in some sense equal partnership, and only before the marriage.

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