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Was Katherine of Aragon a virgin?
August 30, 2014
9:47 am
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Aud
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Yes, I have heard that it was staged, but it doesn’t change the fact that Katherine interceded, I was expanding on Evil May Day for Boleyn.

KOA generally promoted English interests, though of course she was attached to Spain and desired an alliance between England and Spain, however after Ferdinand’s betrayal, Katherine did not promote Spanish interests ahead of England’s because she knew it would negatively affect her position as Henry’s wife. And I think the primary reason behind KOA’s wane in influence was her lack of son. Besides, Henry may have been young but he still chose to rely on his wife’s counsel and that isn’t something that should be discounted because she was older than him. Out of all wives, KOA was the closest to him in age, being 5 1/2 years older than him. If he isn’t making decisions without her input, then isn’t that a partnership? But I don’t think it was because in all his relationships, the wives only have the power/influence that Henry gives/allows them and ironically Henry could at times be a bit forward thinking in this. He left two of his wives, KOA and Katherine Parr as regents while he was involved in war campaigns. Then again, at other times, he is warning Jane Seymour not to meddle like her predecessor who died because she interfered in political affairs.

However I disagree, Henry didn’t really become a hands on monarch until after Wolsey’s downfall. Now that isn’t to say that he didn’t have power or control because he did, I would say influence just shifted, and even when he did take the reigns he still had men such as Cromwell that handled his affairs.

I would say though in regards to Henry & Anne’s relationship before their marriage that she definitely had influence, but I wouldn’t call it a partnership, not even close to it. While they did have similar motives in some aspects, they also had different motives and goals that wasn’t necessarily known to the other party.

August 30, 2014
1:32 pm
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Hannele
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Aud said Besides, Henry may have been young but he still chose to rely on his wife’s counsel and that isn’t something that should be discounted because she was older than him. Out of all wives, KOA was the closest to him in age, being 5 1/2 years older than him. If he isn’t making decisions without her input, then isn’t that a partnership?

Yes, but it was more a partnership of a Queen Mother with a teenage King.

5 1/2 seems a short year gap, but as the woman was older, it seemed much greater when KOA became middle-aged and intensely religious whereas Henry still loved secular and youthful pleasures.

Of course, differences in age and character would not have mattered, if only she had got a healthy son. I wonder if hours of prayer and fasting two days a week were the best methods to that end, indeed a good diet and reasonable exercise would have been more helpful, at least unless there was something wrong with Henry or in the combination Henry and his wives.

August 30, 2014
4:39 pm
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Boleyn
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Aud
White was certainly the colour of mourning in France and in fact Mary Queen of Scots choice of wedding dress to Francois was viewed as a very bad omen for their marriage as she actually chose to wear White.
I have found an account to do with yellow as the excepted colour for Spanish mourning here. http://onthetudortrail.com/Blog/
That same article also states that it was only Anne who dressed in Yellow Henry and the rest of the court showed a little bit more restraint.
K.O.A did have a lot of influence over Henry.
There is also this article http://renaissanceclothing.blo…..ieval.html
Certainly the colour black was worn a lot in the upper eschelons of sociaty, but it was also the most expensive colour to buy, therefore the richer you were, the more prestige you carried if you wore black.
Black could be worn in any sort of situation, it was usually worn with another colour anyway. Elizabeth was fond of wearing both black and white together, both colours of that were believed solely worn for mourning. If she had worn these colours as a sign that she was in morning for someone and then held a masque and a banquet and generally made merry don’t you think that this behaviour would be seen as highly insulting and inappropiate by the freinds and relatives or forgien dignities of the person she was supposed to be mourning.. Yes it’s well documented that she wore black to advertise (and she did say so at the time) that she was in mourning for Lord Darnley her cousin, who had been recently murdered in Scotland in 1567 alledgely by Bothwell with or without Queen Mary’s knowledge (still open to speculation) Mary by the way did go into mourning to for Darnley and wore White the accepted colour of French mourning, which was viewed by some that she didn’t give a damn that Darnley was dead, and certainly her behaviour signifies that to some that she was glad he was dead. Little titbit here Mary went out and played golf when she heard of Darnley’s death, which was viewed by the Scottish lairds with much amusement, she brought the sport back with her from France in 1561 and played it quite often, even during her captivity in Lockleven and during her long captivity in the various houses she was kept in when she came to England.
Black was perhaps worn more around the time of Lent (when the country was still predometely Catholic) as Lent was seen as a time when people were expected to do without the pleasures, glitz, glamour and magnifient food and entertaiments, due to the fact that the big J.C was persecuted, died and rose from the dead etc. However after Lent there would be a grand celebration, with lots of glitz and glamour and food, with plenty of colour (not just black) and light..and maybe that’s the reason to why black is automatically assumed to be the colour of mourning..
Black was really seen more as the excepted colour of mourning as such in England until the Victorian era, who were a gloomy lot anyway. But again the deepest black colour was only wore by those who could afford to buy it, many people in the lower classes have to make do which maybe where the black armbands came in. certainly many people could’nt afford to buy a black dress specifically just to use as a mourning gown. So they would have to dye one of their better dresses black which didn’t always work terribly well and ultimetely they would probably come out grey, or buy a small scrap of black material and make black armbands for herself and the woman of her family (and servants if they were lucky enough to have any) to wear, as the mark of respect to the deceased.
If I have remembered rightly Black was worn for the first year of Victorian mourning and then there would be a further year of wearing Grey, after which the lady was judged respectable enough to think about remarriage. To marry before the 2 year mourning period for a woman would guarentee her being shunned by everyone as having loose morals and being totally disrepectful woman to her husband’s memory.

I find it hard to except that Henry’s migraines were brought about by his jousting accident in 1524, I not saying that wasn’t the case it’s just that me personally seem to find it a little unlikely, however in the event of not having any other excuse for why he had these migraines we have to accept that this is the case.
The reason I doubt it is because I have suffered all my life with migraines, and some doctors believe it could well be down to genetics, as both my father and my grandmother suffered with them and 2 of my children suffer with them, My brother and his children however have completely escaped them, genetics are a funny thing to get to grips with as any sort of illness can skip many generations without rearing any sign of it, then all of a sudden it pops up out of no where.. This was certainly the case with King George 3rd, although traces of this madness were seen in the Tudor/Valois line. Henry 6th exhibited some very behaviour during his reign, and I certainly think that H7 and H8 did have some very odd traits in their mental behaviour. H7 and H8 were in my opinion both extremely paranoid and acted irrationally and illogically at times. Mary queen of Scots H7’s grand-daughter and her son Jimbo both have medical reports that mention purple or plum coloured urine, both were also said to have bouts of depression and temper Mary was also known to be very weepy at times..
These traits also showed in Mary (Tulip) 1st, she I believe like her Aunt Juana suffered from bouts of clinical depression made worse because of her father’s compulsive, irrational and illogical behaviour.
Edward was perhaps the lucky one here as these issues seemed not to have menefested in anyway, but may have done so if he had lived longer.
Elizabeth too seemed to have escaped the mental issues that he father and grandfather experienced, but she did suffer with headaches and menstual problems just as Mary did
These issues in the Tudor bloodline came about of course through their great (great) grandmother Catherine of Valois, whose father was said to have believed that during one of his many mental breakdown that he believed he was made of glass and would shatter if anyone touched him.

The ulcer that Henry developed on his leg that was healed I don’t believed was ever truly healed. The surface of the skin was healed for sure but the actual ulcer it’s self just kept festering away in affect eating his leg away from the outside in, eventually the pus just got to the point where it couldn’t find anywhere else to go and found the weakest point to burst out in this case where the original hole was in the first place. The germs and bacteria that were in that pus were simply too much for the bodies immune sytem to cope with and as a result no matter what the doctor’s did or however many times they drained it it simply was nothing more than a placibo affect, and gave the germs and bacteria more room to breed in and mutate of course, so as soon as the doctor thought he’d got on top of it, it would simply just be lying low for a while waiting to flair up again..
Henry may have even had a rudimentary form of what we now know as a flesh eating bacterial infection more commonly known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N….._fasciitis As you will see from the article it wasn’t really discovered or understood until 1952, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t around in Henry’s time or even before.

I agree with you about Henry he is not my favourite of historical more colourful charaters as you have read. He was his own worst enemy and he had no one to blame for what happened to him thoughout his entire reign but himself.. He was such an egotisical bigot and a total hypocrite as well as being a complete lying bastard and murdering sad sack of crap, the only sympathy I would like to give him is to wring his bloody scrawny neck for him, and then hang his traitorous stinking carcass in a gibbet over the walls of the tower till he rotted, bones and all.

Yes I agree the the Bible does say a woman’s role is to act as her husbands help mate, but a little further in it says that woman are to keep silent in the congregation and learn from her husband at home, so by that interpetation in my opinion how can she act as a help mate if she cannot give her opinion on things that she has heard if she has to sit down and shut up. Isn’t the whole point of being a help mate listening to each others opinions, and helping each other to come to a decision which will help or be of benefit all round by and large.
It seems that the whole help meet idea translates as “We are very democratic in this household. He decides, we agree” In sort an entire Oxymoron in my opinion…
The so called equal patnership you talk about in Anne and Henry’s early relationship, never existed as such. Henry let Anne believe she held a little bit of power, in order to manipulate the whole situation with her, remember she had consistely refused to sleep with him and he was desperate to process her in anyway possible, the longer they were together the more the idea of marrying her became an attractive proposal, but only from the standpoint that he was desperate for a son, and that was the only reason he persued her so relentlessly, plus he didn’t want to admit defeat. In short no woman should say no to him. After he had managed to get his way concerning Anne, it had 2 affects on Henry 1 he had got one over on K.O.A and the Spanish party as well as the Pope. 2 he had finally got Anne into bed. If Anne had bore him a son, then in my opinion she would have ended up in more or less the same position tha K.O.A had been. I.e Henry had got what he wanted he didn’t need to hang around her much more except when she was needed for procreation needs or diplomatic purposes, so he would be off doing exactly what he wanted. If that was going off on a pub crawl around France with his mates or chasing the next pretty woman who happened to cross his path.
When Anne was railroaded into the tower on trumped up charges, Henry was already chasing Jane Seymour I don’t believe it was intention to actually marry her but after Anne was murdered he had no choice but to marry her, as many people in court took it forgranted that marriage to her had been his intention to her all along. I think Cromwell certainly believed that. For Henry not to marry would mean a loss of face, as he hadn’t sampled the pleasures of the woman he was lusting after at that time.
Anne of Cleves to him was as about as pretty as Ena Sharples (Coronation Street charather) and about as erotic as Amy Turtle (Crossroads Charater) In short he didn’t fancy her, and even if a angel dropped down on a golden beam of sunshine and changed her to the most beautiful woman in the world, nothing would change his mind. His main trouble was that he took Holbien’s portrait of Anne as sacrosanct, if he had used his brains instead of his ballcocks, he would have seen and known that, and perhaps adjusted his expectations a little. To be honest I don’t think Anne was that bad, and even though he divorced she earned his respect more because she didn’t appose his will. Both K.O.A and Anne B didn’t give up so easily and vehemently and most admirely defended themselves when he decided to get rid of them.
K.H destruction was purely down to Henry’s spite and ego in short he was just being a vicious jealous bastard. She didn’t need to die, she hadn’t actually done anything wrong. Ok she had been foolish to have a sexual relationship with Dereham, but how was she to know that the King would take an interest in her, and in anycase she really hadn’t got a lot of choice in the matter when it came to Henry. He had made it clear that he wanted her and she couldn’t refuse as I said before no woman says to Henry without causes trouble to her family. The Howards were a big family (Henry was bigger well body wise anyway) If K.H had told him to “get stuffed” Henry could in temper (and remember his temper was getting very unpredictable at this point) order the deaths of the whole Howard clan just because K.H had refused his advantages.
K.P was lucky to survive Henry’s chopping block, but she sailed to close to the wind on one or 2 occations, and I think if Henry had lived a few more years quite apart from not having any children from her, he would have found a way to get rid of her, whether that would be by a amicable freindly divorce (which to be honest he really could afford to do again, either monatary wise or ego wise) or something more drastic. Either having her burnt or chopped up for her religious views or bumped off by poisoning. I’m inclined to think poisoning would have been Henry’s choice that way she could die without any hint of doubt or whispering against Henry. The big old over- inflated Henry Ego thing again.
Anyway best you all lie down in a darkened room with plenty of paracetamol and a gallon of water to take them with on the bedside table. Have a kip and then try to make sence of my post…

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 30, 2014
6:35 pm
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Sharon
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I found this concerning the color of mourning. Maybe they wore yellow because as the article says it represented renewal.
http://www.theanneboleynfiles……ons-death/

What mental issues did Henry VII suffer from, Boleyn? I don’t recall ever hearing that before.

August 30, 2014
7:00 pm
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Boleyn
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Well I believe that H7 had mental issues of a sort.. he was extremly paranoid and I think he saw plots against him around every corner. I also feel that he was capable of cruelity. The hanging of the dogs was in my opinion an act of cruelity, and his treatment towards K.O.A wasn’t really very nice. Yes he said he felt that it wasn’t his place to provide for her duing her widowhood etc.. H7 played a game of cat and mouse with Ferdinand and poor K.O.A in my opinion was the cheese in the mouse trap, and even she didn’t know which way to run. One minute H7 was saying how much he loved her and saw her as his own daughter, then in the next breath was writing to Ferdinand and say “Here I ain’t paying any money out to look after she’s your responsibility cough up” I believe he was in 2 minds on whether to allow K.O.A to meet with her sister Juana when she and her Husband were washed up on the British Coastline, when thry were on the way to take Castille from Ferdinand. I personally feel that if Juana was perhaps a little more Savvy (compus mentus) then H7 wouldn’t have allowed K.O.A to have contact with Juana in case K.O.A said “King Henry is treating me like shit help me Juana” she may or may not have said that but H7 couldn’t take that risk, with Juana mental state a little shaky at the point given the stress of the moment and the death of her mother you can understand it. H7 knew that whatever K.O.A said to Juana, she would just say “Oh look Kathy fluffy clouds, shall we go and pick flowers and roll around on the floor” In short she couldn’t have cared less and perhaps wouldn’t have understood anyway…
H7 in my opinion was fairly good at playing mind games with people always keeping them wondering what he was going to do, and just when they thought they got him figured H7 would do something that blew their theory right out of the water.. H8 learn that skill from his father and in time excelled it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 30, 2014
7:14 pm
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Boleyn
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It could be that yellow was as Sharon points out renewal and joy. This is often interpeted as the fact that Henry and Anne were celebrating that K.O.A was dead, but what if it meant the opposite they were celebrating her life, How she had come to England from a foreign shore at the age of 15 and how she was determined to become as English as possible, she had shown many many acts of kindness, her faith in God was unshakable. She was a devoted loving mother despite the fact that of all the children she had Mary was all she had. And that despite the last years of her life being perhaps the most traumatic she had ever suffered, she had borne them with resolute courage and determination and now that God himself had surely welcomed her joyfully into heaven. She like her mother before her was truly worthly to be given the name Martyr.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 30, 2014
8:18 pm
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Sharon
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I see your point, Boleyn, but Henry VII had every reason to be a little paranoid. There were several plots against Henry VII with which he had to deal. He was a down right angel when compared to his son. Henry VIII was more paranoid than his father ever thought of being.

What is the story of the hanging dogs? I do not recall this. All kings could be cruel though. Henry VII was less cruel than many others.

As to why Henry and Anne wore yellow…I find it hard to swallow that they were celebrating Katherine’s life. That’s a nice thought, but I think both of them were relieved. More likely they were celebrating their future life together with no obstructions, such as war looming on the horizon. Maybe they just happened to wear yellow, and it meant nothing of the sort. Like Claire said in the article, Chapuys may have mentioned it because he thought it inappropriate.

August 30, 2014
9:33 pm
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Boleyn
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H7 held a lion baiting event you know how the royality like their blood sports. Well it seems that H7 dragged one of the older lions out of the menagary in the tower, and put it in the Baiting pit and set 4 dogs on it, the lion being older wasn’t really up to the fight and I believe the dogs have been starved for a week or so prior to the event so were naturally a little hungry as you can imagine. Evryone just saw the whole thing as an entertainment and naturally took bets etc, the money perhaps even finding a way into H7’s coffers after the event. Anyway the dogs quickly overpowered the poor lion and killed it. The dogs were naturally cheered etc as they were led away behind a screen, however a few minutes later the screen was removed and there on a platform was constructed a gallows on which the four dogs stood with ropes around their necks. H7 then stood up and pronouced that the dogs were traitors to the king (the lion being the king of the beasts) and hung them.
I think this happened shortly before K.O.A arrived in England. I think it was H7’s way of saying if anyone dares to challenge my royal will again I’ll kill you.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 31, 2014
1:30 pm
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Aud
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Boleyn as for the subject of wearing being a color of mourning, on the first website you posted, the owner? posted a retraction saying that Alison Weir retracted the claim and there was nothing to back the story of yellow being the color of Spanish mourning. Your second link which lists the colors and what they represented makes the wearing of yellow even worse or it wouldn’t match with yellow being used for prostitutes or to single out jews or where it says it was a balance between justice and compassion.

I am not saying that black couldn’t be worn in other situations and you are correct about it being expensive and for the upper classes, but it was still used for mourning as well.

A lance speeding towards you from a man atop of his horse that crashes into your temple is going to cause some problems. It was after this incident that these migraines occurred, there was no mention of them before.

Henry VII may have been paranoid due to several plots and attempts to depose him but there was nothing wrong with his brain nor his emotions. He had a fully functioning mind. Henry VII wasn’t known for being irrational and illogically, he wasn’t perfect and he wasn’t without fault. But that is a far cry from being mentally unstable. He tended to keep himself under control (unlike his son), and he was a faithful (rare) and devoted husband to his wife Elizabeth of York.

As to what the Bible says, I am going to say that there are more readings on the relationship between the husband and the wife.

As for Henry and Jane and whether he had intended to marry her all along, I would say no, because she was there during Anne’s pregnancy, and during that time, Henry wasn’t looking to set Anne aside. After the miscarriage of 1536, I wouldn’t know when, but I would say Henry began to look at Jane as a prospective wife.

The hanging of the dogs was a lesson. If the lion had killed the dogs, the lesson would most likely have been that traitors cannot overcome the king, but if the dogs killed the lion as such was case, then they were hung rightfully like the traitors they were.

Anne and Henry celebrating her life? I don’t believe it, and why? Because for the past decade, she and stood in their way. And another question, why if it was a cause to celebrate, didn’t Henry forbid Mary from attending her mother’s funeral? Punishment, because to him KOA and Mary were in the wrong,

September 1, 2014
11:31 pm
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I agree with you Aud over Henry and Jane. I don’t think for one minute marriage was on the cards for them. Jane was just seen by him as a pastime.
A quick fling, whilst Anne was pregnant, and just as quickly disgarded, a case of “Ding next one please.”
He hadn’t been looking actively for another wife during the months before Anne’s downfall and the dramatically quick way that Anne was railroaded in her death he hadn’t had time to look around either. He married Jane simply because there was no one better available at the time. A few months after when the hue and cry of Anne’s death died down, the country nobles felt safe enough to send their daughter to court again to find husbands it was always better for these girls if they were perhaps amongst the Queen’s ladies or at least in the Queen’s household to find richer and more worthy husbands. Henry at that time did state around this time that if he had seen these ladies before marrying Jane he would have chosen a little more wisely. He didn’t exactly use those words but that was the general gist of it.

Sharon said the same as you about celebrating life etc. It is a nice thought but with hindsight they probably were celebrating that she was dead.
His treatment toward Mary was diabolical, she and her mother had, had one breif visit with her mother during her time as the outcast child, and even then everything that they said was reported back to Henry.
I do feel however that Mary blamed Anne for her father’s treatment towards her, although certainly Anne did verbally abuse her at times, the “baked Apple” comes to mind. I think Mary believed when she found out of Anne’d ownfall and subsequent death, that her father would once again be the loving father he once was.
However she realised the truth when she wrote a letter to him (via Cromwell) congratulating on his marriage and the answer came back
“Thank you Mary however if you want to be excepted once more you will surrender to my will, you will admit your mother and I were not married and that you are a bastard. Or else I WILL KILL YOU, I mean it Mary submit to me or the next letter you will get is one from Cromwell asking you “how would you like your steak (stake) done?” Submit to me you un-natural brat or you will burn at Smithfield” She realised that it wasn’t all Anne after all. I’ve no doubt Henry would have killed her.
I understand the reasoning behind H7 hanging dogs story but I just find it hard to except that he could be so cruel, but there again the same could be said of Bosworth if he hadn’t have had the ruthless determination to fight against Richard come what may, he would have stayed in Brittany, and become a sheep farmer.. Richard called him a Welsh Milk sop. So he would have been a Welsh milk sop sheep farmer. LOL
I don’t doubt the lance in the joust accident did something to him, and certainly he did have headaches, but whether they were migraines or maybe even something more serious I don’t know. These headaches may have been Meneres disease which is a disorder of the middle ear, when the crystals go all funny causing dizzy spells, blackouts and periods of debility. We will never really know..
It may well be that like the fashions today that seem to constantly go around and reappear every few years or so, that Yellow was perhaps the in colour at that time, K.O.A’s death and the appearence of Henry and Anne dressing in Bright yellow was seem as the fact that they were celebrating, when in fact they were a fashion statement (very loosely worded) The colour yellow went around for many years afterwards and only really went out of fashion in Jimbo’s reign when Robert Carr and Francis Carr along with a lady called Anne Turner (who helped make the yellow ruffs that were worn back then popular) were convicted of Thomas Overbury’s murder. Anne turner was hanged, wearing one of her trademark yellow ruffs after which the colour went out of fashion. Robert and Francis were spared death but were imprisoned in the tower for a while and then exiled to their home Sherbourne Castle and died Francis in 1642 and Robert in 1645.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 1, 2014
11:32 pm
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Boleyn
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I agree with you Aud over Henry and Jane. I don’t think for one minute marriage was on the cards for them. Jane was just seen by him as a pastime.
A quick fling, whilst Anne was pregnant, and just as quickly disgarded, a case of “Ding next one please.”
He hadn’t been looking actively for another wife during the months before Anne’s downfall and the dramatically quick way that Anne was railroaded in her death he hadn’t had time to look around either. He married Jane simply because there was no one better available at the time. A few months after when the hue and cry of Anne’s death died down, the country nobles felt safe enough to send their daughter to court again to find husbands it was always better for these girls if they were perhaps amongst the Queen’s ladies or at least in the Queen’s household to find richer and more worthy husbands. Henry at that time did state around this time that if he had seen these ladies before marrying Jane he would have chosen a little more wisely. He didn’t exactly use those words but that was the general gist of it.

Sharon said the same as you about celebrating life etc. It is a nice thought but with hindsight they probably were celebrating that she was dead.
His treatment toward Mary was diabolical, she and her mother had, had one breif visit with her mother during her time as the outcast child, and even then everything that they said was reported back to Henry.
I do feel however that Mary blamed Anne for her father’s treatment towards her, although certainly Anne did verbally abuse her at times, the “baked Apple” comes to mind. I think Mary believed when she found out of Anne’d ownfall and subsequent death, that her father would once again be the loving father he once was.
However she realised the truth when she wrote a letter to him (via Cromwell) congratulating on his marriage and the answer came back
“Thank you Mary however if you want to be excepted once more you will surrender to my will, you will admit your mother and I were not married and that you are a bastard. Or else I WILL KILL YOU, I mean it Mary submit to me or the next letter you will get is one from Cromwell asking you “how would you like your steak (stake) done?” Submit to me you un-natural brat or you will burn at Smithfield” She realised that it wasn’t all Anne after all. I’ve no doubt Henry would have killed her.
I understand the reasoning behind H7 hanging dogs story but I just find it hard to except that he could be so cruel, but there again the same could be said of Bosworth if he hadn’t have had the ruthless determination to fight against Richard come what may, he would have stayed in Brittany, and become a sheep farmer.. Richard called him a Welsh Milk sop. So he would have been a Welsh milk sop sheep farmer. LOL
I don’t doubt the lance in the joust accident did something to him, and certainly he did have headaches, but whether they were migraines or maybe even something more serious I don’t know. These headaches may have been Meneres disease which is a disorder of the middle ear, when the crystals go all funny causing dizzy spells, blackouts and periods of debility. We will never really know..
It may well be that like the fashions today that seem to constantly go around and reappear every few years or so, that Yellow was perhaps the in colour at that time, K.O.A’s death and the appearence of Henry and Anne dressing in Bright yellow was seem as the fact that they were celebrating, when in fact they were a fashion statement (very loosely worded) The colour yellow went around for many years afterwards and only really went out of fashion in Jimbo’s reign when Robert Carr and Francis Carr along with a lady called Anne Turner (who helped make the yellow ruffs that were worn back then popular) were convicted of Thomas Overbury’s murder. Anne turner was hanged, wearing one of her trademark yellow ruffs after which the colour went out of fashion. Robert and Francis were spared death but were imprisoned in the tower for a while and then exiled to their home Sherbourne Castle and died Francis in 1642 and Robert in 1645.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 2, 2014
7:52 pm
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Sharon
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Aud said

As for Henry and Jane and whether he had intended to marry her all along, I would say no, because she was there during Anne’s pregnancy, and during that time, Henry wasn’t looking to set Anne aside. After the miscarriage of 1536, I wouldn’t know when, but I would say Henry began to look at Jane as a prospective wife.

Anne miscarried in January. Up until that time Jane was accepting gifts (the famous necklace/locket with his picture for one) from Henry. After the miscarriage, the incident with the bag of money from Henry to Jane takes place. She declines this gift. In March Cromwell is booted out of his rooms which are next to Henry’s; and Anne and Edward Seymour are to chaperone Jane in these rooms. Henry would no longer meet her in private without proper chaperones being in attendance. Same thing he had done for Anne. It was Anne’s mother who chaperoned for her. It is my opinion that Henry made up his mind, or at least started thinking about marrying Jane when he moved her into Cromwell’s rooms. Now he has to find a way out of his marriage to Anne. I don’t put anything down to Henry’s having Chapuys acknowledge Anne in April other than his desire for everyone to do what he wanted them to do. It did not matter whether his marriage was close to being ended. In Henry’s book, Chapuys should acknowledge Anne as queen. Unfortunately, it gave Anne a false sense of security, which is what Henry was probably aiming for to begin with.

September 3, 2014
12:07 am
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Aud
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Sharon said

Aud said

As for Henry and Jane and whether he had intended to marry her all along, I would say no, because she was there during Anne’s pregnancy, and during that time, Henry wasn’t looking to set Anne aside. After the miscarriage of 1536, I wouldn’t know when, but I would say Henry began to look at Jane as a prospective wife.

Anne miscarried in January. Up until that time Jane was accepting gifts (the famous necklace/locket with his picture for one) from Henry. After the miscarriage, the incident with the bag of money from Henry to Jane takes place. She declines this gift. In March Cromwell is booted out of his rooms which are next to Henry’s; and Anne and Edward Seymour are to chaperone Jane in these rooms. Henry would no longer meet her in private without proper chaperones being in attendance. Same thing he had done for Anne. It was Anne’s mother who chaperoned for her. It is my opinion that Henry made up his mind, or at least started thinking about marrying Jane when he moved her into Cromwell’s rooms. Now he has to find a way out of his marriage to Anne. I don’t put anything down to Henry’s having Chapuys acknowledge Anne in April other than his desire for everyone to do what he wanted them to do. It did not matter whether his marriage was close to being ended. In Henry’s book, Chapuys should acknowledge Anne as queen. Unfortunately, it gave Anne a false sense of security, which is what Henry was probably aiming for to begin with.

Sharon said

Aud said

As for Henry and Jane and whether he had intended to marry her all along, I would say no, because she was there during Anne’s pregnancy, and during that time, Henry wasn’t looking to set Anne aside. After the miscarriage of 1536, I wouldn’t know when, but I would say Henry began to look at Jane as a prospective wife.

Anne miscarried in January. Up until that time Jane was accepting gifts (the famous necklace/locket with his picture for one) from Henry. After the miscarriage, the incident with the bag of money from Henry to Jane takes place. She declines this gift. In March Cromwell is booted out of his rooms which are next to Henry’s; and Anne and Edward Seymour are to chaperone Jane in these rooms. Henry would no longer meet her in private without proper chaperones being in attendance. Same thing he had done for Anne. It was Anne’s mother who chaperoned for her. It is my opinion that Henry made up his mind, or at least started thinking about marrying Jane when he moved her into Cromwell’s rooms. Now he has to find a way out of his marriage to Anne. I don’t put anything down to Henry’s having Chapuys acknowledge Anne in April other than his desire for everyone to do what he wanted them to do. It did not matter whether his marriage was close to being ended. In Henry’s book, Chapuys should acknowledge Anne as queen. Unfortunately, it gave Anne a false sense of security, which is what Henry was probably aiming for to begin with.

Good summary of how things progressed Sharon. From what you just wrote, then I would say things began to change momentously (though people weren’t necessarily aware of how momentous this change was) for Henry, Jane, and Anne. And I can see how Henry would have wanted Chapuys to acknowledge Anne even though he himself wanted to get rid of her. I think in his mind, what he was saying was that it wasn’t up to anyone to criticize his actions, I mean when Henry killed Anne Boleyn, he didn’t turn around and say to all those dead or persecuted because of the situation with her, that you were right, I shouldn’t have done this and this. No those people who were against Anne, were against Henry and that could not be forgiven. So with Chapuys, I can see Henry thinking well I am going to rid myself of this woman, but you will acknowledge her because I want you to do so, and no one is to tell me what is what.

September 4, 2014
4:12 am
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Anyanka
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Aud said

Sharon said

Aud said

As for Henry and Jane and whether he had intended to marry her all along, I would say no, because she was there during Anne’s pregnancy, and during that time, Henry wasn’t looking to set Anne aside. After the miscarriage of 1536, I wouldn’t know when, but I would say Henry began to look at Jane as a prospective wife.

Anne miscarried in January. Up until that time Jane was accepting gifts (the famous necklace/locket with his picture for one) from Henry. After the miscarriage, the incident with the bag of money from Henry to Jane takes place. She declines this gift. In March Cromwell is booted out of his rooms which are next to Henry’s; and Anne and Edward Seymour are to chaperone Jane in these rooms. Henry would no longer meet her in private without proper chaperones being in attendance. Same thing he had done for Anne. It was Anne’s mother who chaperoned for her. It is my opinion that Henry made up his mind, or at least started thinking about marrying Jane when he moved her into Cromwell’s rooms. Now he has to find a way out of his marriage to Anne. I don’t put anything down to Henry’s having Chapuys acknowledge Anne in April other than his desire for everyone to do what he wanted them to do. It did not matter whether his marriage was close to being ended. In Henry’s book, Chapuys should acknowledge Anne as queen. Unfortunately, it gave Anne a false sense of security, which is what Henry was probably aiming for to begin with.

Sharon said

Aud said

As for Henry and Jane and whether he had intended to marry her all along, I would say no, because she was there during Anne’s pregnancy, and during that time, Henry wasn’t looking to set Anne aside. After the miscarriage of 1536, I wouldn’t know when, but I would say Henry began to look at Jane as a prospective wife.

Anne miscarried in January. Up until that time Jane was accepting gifts (the famous necklace/locket with his picture for one) from Henry. After the miscarriage, the incident with the bag of money from Henry to Jane takes place. She declines this gift. In March Cromwell is booted out of his rooms which are next to Henry’s; and Anne and Edward Seymour are to chaperone Jane in these rooms. Henry would no longer meet her in private without proper chaperones being in attendance. Same thing he had done for Anne. It was Anne’s mother who chaperoned for her. It is my opinion that Henry made up his mind, or at least started thinking about marrying Jane when he moved her into Cromwell’s rooms. Now he has to find a way out of his marriage to Anne. I don’t put anything down to Henry’s having Chapuys acknowledge Anne in April other than his desire for everyone to do what he wanted them to do. It did not matter whether his marriage was close to being ended. In Henry’s book, Chapuys should acknowledge Anne as queen. Unfortunately, it gave Anne a false sense of security, which is what Henry was probably aiming for to begin with.

Good summary of how things progressed Sharon. From what you just wrote, then I would say things began to change momentously (though people weren’t necessarily aware of how momentous this change was) for Henry, Jane, and Anne. And I can see how Henry would have wanted Chapuys to acknowledge Anne even though he himself wanted to get rid of her. I think in his mind, what he was saying was that it wasn’t up to anyone to criticize his actions, I mean when Henry killed Anne Boleyn, he didn’t turn around and say to all those dead or persecuted because of the situation with her, that you were right, I shouldn’t have done this and this. No those people who were against Anne, were against Henry and that could not be forgiven. So with Chapuys, I can see Henry thinking well I am going to rid myself of this woman, but you will acknowledge her because I want you to do so, and no one is to tell me what is what.

Henry need Chapuys to aknowledge Anne to Prove Henry was Right!!!…How or why or ….didn’t matter by then..Henry had to be RIGHT…

It's always bunnies.

September 13, 2014
3:21 pm
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Hannele
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David Starkey says in Henry, virtuous prince: “At the time [after the wedding night of Arthur and Katherine of Aragon], the fact of intercourse was simply taken for granted”. That belief is shown also the original plan was that the couple would reside at court, but as Arthur was a year older and “quite old to proper married life”, it was decided to send them to Ludlow, “there to life as man and wife”.

That “the dog did not bark at the time but Katherine mad her claim only later is of course a strong argument for consummation as lack of it would have made the marriage invalid and certainly worried the young couple and their royal parents.

Antonia Fraser tells in her book Marie Antoinette how the problem of the future Louis XVI was openly discussed in her letters to her mother and her brother even gave candid advice to his brother-in-law. And when it finally happened, she sent information to her mother.

September 13, 2014
3:29 pm
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Hannele
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Starekey also tells in Henry, virtuous prince how Henry, after becoming king, broke the rule of his father and council not to joust, at first participating in cognito.

I think that jousting showed Henry was quite thoughtless as he had no heir. But apparently he, almost a teenager still, did not believe that he could die.

September 13, 2014
4:40 pm
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Aud
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I’m not sure what you mean by later, but Katherine was saying that she was a virgin before she even married Henry VIII. Dona Elvira, (a woman who later conspired against Katherine and her father Ferdinand), said that Katherine was a virgin and she did not retract her words. Non-consummation only meant that the marriage could be annulled on those grounds, not that it was automatically invalid.

Besides the marriage was at the most six months, not years, so it isn’t implausible that the marriage remained unconsummated, while yes it was seen as their duty to consummate the marriage and have children, they were also strangers. And again, if the marriage was consummated why would KOA need to lie? The dispensation was covered her marriage to Henry regardless of whether or not her marriage to Arthur was consummated. Wasn’t the word and the authority of the Pope enough for Katherine? It certainly was, when she received the ruling from Rome that declared her marriage to Henry valid despite what Henry had done. And she also said that Arthur never touched her in a confessional, and I surely don’t take KOA as a woman who would lie in a confession.

And it was Fraser herself who makes a good argument for Katherine being a virgin and the customs of the time:

“In an age when marriages were frequently contracted for reasons of state between children or those hovering between childhood and adolescence more care rather than less was taken over the timing of consummation. Once the marriage was officially completed, some years might pass before the appropriate moment was judged to have arrived.”

The original plan as Fraser says:

“The plan therefore was for Catherine to remain in London, under the tutelage of her mother-in-law, while Arthur was to be allowed to continue his growing up, undisturbed by the distractions of a wife, in the Marches of Wales at Ludlow Castle.”

There are other examples of delayed consummation in marriage such as Louise of Savoy and her husband Charles of Orleans, Henry Fitzroy and Mary Howard, and possibly James IV of Scotland and Margaret Tudor (who didn’t have her first child until 1507). Henry was apparently worried about his son having too much relations with his wife. The Catholic Monarchs son, John of Asturias, who died when he was nineteen, had rumors and concerns that he died from having exerting himself from having relations with his wife. Henry Howard, the Earl of Surrey married Frances de Vere when they were both fifteen/sixteen in 1532 and didn’t live together and consummate the marriage until three years later in 1535. And when the bride was under fifteen, there were even more cases of delayed consummation amongst royalty. So Katherine and Arthur’s case is not strange nor uncommon.

As for Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI, this was an issue that went on for several years, so doubt it was a concern, unlike Katherine and Arthur who were only married for a few months.

September 13, 2014
7:23 pm
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Hannele
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Aud said if the marriage was consummated why would KOA need to lie? The dispensation was covered her marriage to Henry regardless of whether or not her marriage to Arthur was consummated. Wasn’t the word and the authority of the Pope enough for Katherine?

At that time it was the crux of the matter was that Katherine wanted to marry Henry and become the Queen of England and evidently she believed that she had better chances to succeed if her previous marriage was not consummated.

Evidently her parents were not sure that she told the truth, because they got the second dispensation.

September 13, 2014
7:54 pm
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Aud
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Hannele said

Aud said if the marriage was consummated why would KOA need to lie? The dispensation was covered her marriage to Henry regardless of whether or not her marriage to Arthur was consummated. Wasn’t the word and the authority of the Pope enough for Katherine?

At that time it was the crux of the matter was that Katherine wanted to marry Henry and become the Queen of England and evidently she believed that she had better chances to succeed if her previous marriage was not consummated.

Evidently her parents were not sure that she told the truth, because they got the second dispensation.

I meant why would Katherine lie when the dispensation covered both ways during the annulment proceedings.

She believed she had better chances if she claimed to be a virgin? Despite the fact that her father and Henry VII fought over the dowry for several years and the alteration of her position after her mother’s death which lessened her value on the marriage market? It was these two things that caused Henry VII to look elsewhere for a match for his son (the Hapsburgs), there was no constant fighting over the issue of her virginity. In fact, during her widowhood, Katherine wrote to her father repeatedly about her situation which centered around lack of money for her personal expenses, poverty, and the dowry which needed to be paid.

I heard it was the English who wanted to cover all bases with the dispensation covering both ways, but even if the Catholic Monarchs weren’t sure, it doesn’t mean that Katherine was lying and the marriage was consummated. In fact, according to Fraser, Ferdinand didn’t doubt Katherine’s virginity but allowed the dispensation to cover both situations because of the English.

September 15, 2014
2:33 pm
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Bob the Builder
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perhaps the most obvious answer is little to do with the Pope, or Henry VII, or Ferdinand.

is it not more likely that Henry VIII would marry Katherine if he didn’t, for want of a less unpleasant turn of phrase, think he was getting his dead Brothers sloppy seconds?

the dispensation may have covered both options, but it would undeniably be easier for all concerned if her marriage to Arthur had not been consumated – easier for her in starting a new life, easier for Henry in not having a ghost at the feast?

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