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Was Jane Seymour Henry's True Love?
August 29, 2014
3:04 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Physicians today say Edward’s final symptoms can be seen as secondary symptoms of TB. The loss of hair, the loosening of fingernails and toenails, the swelling of his limbs, and the discoloration of his skin. I always assumed it was from the arsenic. I found this in Skidmore’s book, Edward VI. Interesting.
Did Mary believe Edward had been poisoned? Poisoning was a rumor, yes, but the autopsy said he died of lung disease, not poison.

Henry suffered with arsenic Sharon quite often so I believe… Well the stupid fat lump shouldn’t have put his razor on his chair should he, then he wouldn’t have sat on it, would he? ;) Don’t know why really, that given that he would have used the old cut throat razor, the barber who shaved him didn’t just slip one day and cut his throat, would have saved a lot of misery all round for everyone..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 29, 2014
4:02 pm
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Aud
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Boleyn said

Sharon said

Physicians today say Edward’s final symptoms can be seen as secondary symptoms of TB. The loss of hair, the loosening of fingernails and toenails, the swelling of his limbs, and the discoloration of his skin. I always assumed it was from the arsenic. I found this in Skidmore’s book, Edward VI. Interesting.
Did Mary believe Edward had been poisoned? Poisoning was a rumor, yes, but the autopsy said he died of lung disease, not poison.

Henry suffered with arsenic Sharon quite often so I believe… Well the stupid fat lump shouldn’t have put his razor on his chair should he, then he wouldn’t have sat on it, would he? ;) Don’t know why really, that given that he would have used the old cut throat razor, the barber who shaved him didn’t just slip one day and cut his throat, would have saved a lot of misery all round for everyone..

I have never heard of this story about the razor, but I have heard that those garters that he wore around his legs didn’t help with the ulcers on his legs. Highly stupid, I mean I understand they didn’t have an advanced knowledge of medicine back then, but really? Wearing tight garters on legs infected with ulcers? I am shaking my head at this foolishness.

August 29, 2014
4:23 pm
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Henry was all about showing off!

I read some time ago where Henry VII told Henry the dangers of jousting and getting on horses – yet he jousted and rode daily anyway. If he hadn’t he wouldn’t have had that traumatic fall in 1536.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 29, 2014
4:32 pm
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LadyPrincess said

Henry was all about showing off!

I read some time ago where Henry VII told Henry the dangers of jousting and getting on horses – yet he jousted and rode daily anyway. If he hadn’t he wouldn’t have had that traumatic fall in 1536.

Agreed, he could have participated in other sports, and for all his crimes I sure don’t feel sorry for him that he was injured in 1536. He was 44 years old, too old to be playing around like he did at that joust.

August 29, 2014
4:36 pm
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Yes and what about how he showed off a ring Anne had given him to Thomas Wyatt? Only to have Wyatt show off a trinket he took from Anne.

Then Henry sent Wyatt away from court! He was very petty.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 29, 2014
5:24 pm
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Henry also sent Thomas Seymour away when he was vying for Katherine Parr’s hand.
Boleyn, I think maybe you should explain what you meant about the razor! What? Surprised

August 29, 2014
6:41 pm
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Boleyn
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I was joking Aud, Sharon got the joke.. LOL

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 30, 2014
1:01 am
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anneboleynx
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Of course it was not.
Henry’s “one” true love = Anne Boleyn
Jane only consolation. Because Jane passive and quiet. If a woman does not want her husband to share Anne Boleyn.

August 30, 2014
2:23 am
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anneboleynx said

Of course it was not.
Henry’s “one” true love = Anne Boleyn
Jane only consolation. Because Jane passive and quiet. If a woman does not want her husband to share Anne Boleyn.

I am going to have to disagree, what I see in Henry and Anne’s relationship is a lot of lust and passion mixed with his all consuming desire for a male heir, that came before his wives. Doesn’t seem like true love to me. And if a man had just executed his previous wife, would you run your mouth at him and fuss and fight? Jane knew she had to tread carefully with Henry, once, when she approached Henry about a political manner, Henry warned her of her predecessor and that Anne was executed because she meddled in politics.

Lol, Boleyn, sorry I completely misunderstood your words. Laugh

August 30, 2014
10:16 am
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Aud said

anneboleynx said

Of course it was not.
Henry’s “one” true love = Anne Boleyn
Jane only consolation. Because Jane passive and quiet. If a woman does not want her husband to share Anne Boleyn.

I am going to have to disagree, what I see in Henry and Anne’s relationship is a lot of lust and passion mixed with his all consuming desire for a male heir, that came before his wives. Doesn’t seem like true love to me. And if a man had just executed his previous wife, would you run your mouth at him and fuss and fight? Jane knew she had to tread carefully with Henry, once, when she approached Henry about a political manner, Henry warned her of her predecessor and that Anne was executed because she meddled in politics.

I don’t blame Jane for being passive, in the circumstances it was probably a wise course. But because she died after giving birth to Edward, we cannot know if she could have influenced on Henry even after that, or what kind of regent she would have been under her son’s minority.

As it was, Henry was not ready to do anything for Jane, besides giving her jewels and lands and her relatives titles and wealth. It was her who had to do all what he wanted, not only to give him a son, to submit to him in all other matters. She was not even allowed to speak her opinions even if he made the final decisions. That certainly is not love to me.

As for Anne, even Henry’s letters to hear reveal that he felt much more than lust and passion. There was also respect and friendship. She was the only one whom Henry treated (at least some sense) as equal, though only before their marriage.

In addition, although historians seems to have different opinions whether Anne really influenced on Reformation or whether she only read religious books to please Henry so that she could discuss with him, but the fact that they discussed on that kind of serious subject, shows that it was also an union of minds.

August 30, 2014
10:52 am
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Hannele
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Of course, there is a question if Henry was not capable of love, not only feeling himself in love, but respecting another as as autonomous person who had a right to have opinions, values and needs different from him and who therefore was sometimes bound to “disappointed” him, simply by being not what he wanted her to be – but whom he just thereby could have trusted to be honest and open with him.

It seems that that is just what Henry could not tolerate (perhaps with an exception before his marriage with Anne), nor that he would not always get what he wanted. Therefore his love could turn to hate. That happened with KOA and that happened to Anne and Catherine Howard. And in a way, the same happened to Wolsey and Cromwell.

August 30, 2014
11:02 am
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Hannele said

Aud said

anneboleynx said

Of course it was not.
Henry’s “one” true love = Anne Boleyn
Jane only consolation. Because Jane passive and quiet. If a woman does not want her husband to share Anne Boleyn.

I am going to have to disagree, what I see in Henry and Anne’s relationship is a lot of lust and passion mixed with his all consuming desire for a male heir, that came before his wives. Doesn’t seem like true love to me. And if a man had just executed his previous wife, would you run your mouth at him and fuss and fight? Jane knew she had to tread carefully with Henry, once, when she approached Henry about a political manner, Henry warned her of her predecessor and that Anne was executed because she meddled in politics.

I don’t blame Jane for being passive, in the circumstances it was probably a wise course. But because she died after giving birth to Edward, we cannot know if she could have influenced on Henry even after that, or what kind of regent she would have been under her son’s minority.

As it was, Henry was not ready to do anything for Jane, besides giving her jewels and lands and her relatives titles and wealth. It was her who had to do all what he wanted, not only to give him a son, to submit to him in all other matters. She was not even allowed to speak her opinions even if he made the final decisions. That certainly is not love to me.

As for Anne, even Henry’s letters to hear reveal that he felt much more than lust and passion. There was also respect and friendship. She was the only one whom Henry treated (at least some sense) as equal, though only before their marriage.

In addition, although historians seems to have different opinions whether Anne really influenced on Reformation or whether she only read religious books to please Henry so that she could discuss with him, but the fact that they discussed on that kind of serious subject, shows that it was also an union of minds.

And you know what happened when Henry married Anne? He expected herself to conform to the position as Queen and wife and to hold her tongue, shut her eyes and ignore his affairs, and to keep silent and not to interfere in his political affairs. The very things that attracted him to her at first now repelled him, what he tolerated in a “mistress”, he now wouldn’t tolerate in Anne as his wife. The very things that made up her personality and character he would not tolerate. I’m sorry but that isn’t love to me, (feel free to disagree). Sounds like one big chase for Henry, and then once Anne was “conquered” she was to conform herself to his wishes and desires.

And I am not arguing that Jane was Henry’s true love, just that there is more to Jane than just some meek pale woman. I don’t think Henry truly loved Jane either, and I will say this, his love (and I am still not all the way decided on this issue with his wives) was conditional. And whenever they failed to please him, it was gone. Respect and friendship were present in some of his other relationships as well, at least for a while. Still doesn’t make it true love.

Union of minds? Because they discussed religion?
So what kind of women were Katherine Parr and Katherine of Aragon? Though I would argue these two were each considerably more intelligent than Henry VIII. But you make a good point, was Henry capable of love? It seemed his love was conditional, and it tended to disappear when people failed them and ironically it was for things they couldn’t control. Anne Boleyn and KOA: failure to give birth to a son, Wolsey: couldn’t procure an annulment, Cromwell: a combination of things, unpopular, the Cleves marriage, etc. Henry was a spoiled man with absolute power, and what he wanted he got, and if you were in the way, then you were in serious trouble.

August 30, 2014
12:13 pm
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Aud I agree with you here. Anne was radically different to K.O.A and her firey tempestous nature was a big attraction to Henry. After so many years of married life to K.O.A his sex life with her must have become pretty much as if he was an endless factory production line, he needed something to spice up his sexlife for want of a better word.

In my opinion there would have perhaps been no spontinaity in the sexual relationship between K.O.A and Henry. He would have informed her of his intentions to sleep with her that night either by telling her that himself or via a messager, (providing that she wasn’t having her menstrual cycle at that time, and again that would probably be asked when he made his intentions known about wanting to visit her that night) that fact alone knowing that the whole palace and perhaps even the whole of London would know by the morning, that the King was going to sleep with his wife, would perhaps be very offputting to him at times.
There was probably the issue of how K.O.A looked and acted when he went into the bedroom, there would be set of actions that she would know inside out and back to front she would have followed. I.e
Step 1 Have wash.
Step 2 Put frilly nightie on, put a bit of Evening in London perfume behind your ears.
Step 3 Pour a drink for Henry and possibly have a little bit of bread and meat on standby.
Step 4 Climb into bed and try to look sexy.
Step 5 Listen out for Henry when heard dismiss her ladies.
Step 6 Tell Henry “Come In dear”
Step 7 Lie back and look at the cracks in the ceiling.
Step 8 Breathe a sign of relief it all over
Step 9 Wave bye bye to Henry
Step 10 Blow candle out (if there is anything left to blow out) and go to sleep.

There is also a matter of sexual prowess here (especially when it came to Henry’s ego which as we know was a large and perhaps larger than he was towards the end of his life) We all know that back then the whole reasoning for sex was solely for the procreation of children, however although not to sure about this, in order to acheive that it, it was vital or so I believe, that the woman must orgasm to help that process along, so Henry’s sexual abilities would have been judged in the sence of was he viral and skilled enough to be able to produce the very orgasm needed to bring children forth?
I believe he may have also been judged on how long he was actually in her room for. I’m not saying he would be timed or anything, but certainly if he was only in there for half an hour, there would be gossip. For instance we all know of Henry’s unbridled rivalry towards Francois, so the spies in both courts and there were many would be asked to keep and and eye out for how long it took for both Francois and Henry to have sex.
If Francois took longer than Henry in the bedroom or vice versa/Shurla Burla, it would be gossiped about, and that gossip would eventually get back to both of them, with no doubt a few comments thrown in by either king such as in Francois case to Henry “Ha ha I can go for hours and my wife/mistresses are so well satified, afterwards they can’t walk, Your missus just rolls over and goes to sleep. Just goes to prove only French men know how to make love” I not saying this did happen but given the almost insane jealous rivalry between Henry and Francois, you can possibly believe that this was the case.
Henry’s love for Anne was more of a desperate sort of love, he needed to prove that he outdo his rival Francois. If Anne had bore him a son then maybe he might have developed a much deeper and more compassionate love towards Anne one that goes beyond that of just sex and children if that makes sence.. I suppose they only way to describe it is that although I’m married to a dinky dinosaur who at times I could cheerfully strangle (especially given the insane things he does at times.. The magic roundabout comes to mind here, lets just say dinosaur isn’t normal and I’m not even going there with Thunderbirds.) He’s more than just my husband, he’s my best freind, too. I don’t think Henry ever felt that for Anne or any other of his wives, with the possible exception of perhaps K.P, although she wasn’t his best freind mearly an extremely close freind.
K.O.A was in my opinion his wife and his best freind, she was his true love and as I said in a previous posting her death hit him hard, harder than perhaps he ever realised it would.
Yes he loved Jane but again not in the same way as either K.O.A or Anne. He didn’t love her for her, who she was etc, he loved her purely from the standpoint of that she had given him Edward. If Anne B had brought forth a son he would love her for much the same reason for her son, that’s all. A.O.C well they did become freinds after he had divorced her but again that freindship was based on the fact that she had quietly rolled over and given in to his demands. Did he respect her, yeah he did but again only for the same reasons that she’d rolled over and given in to his demands, secretly he probably abhorred that fact that he had had to shell out all this money, land and property to get shot of her.
K.H was the trophy bride, a oneupmanship stab at Francois to prove that Henry still had what it took to pull the birds, and the sexual prowess to put Francois’s to shame etc… His marriage to K.H had nothing to do with love it was purely of a sexual nature and as I said oneupmanship head games on Francois. The comment made about loud and noisy sex was purely for Francois benefit a kind of rub it in Francois’s face tactic, saying “I’m having a great deal of enjoyable sex Francois, with a beautiful young woman, who I totally adore, and loves me too and we are going to have have many many children. You may have the kids Francois, but your willy is rotting away” I’m not too sure but i believe that it was alledged that by 1540/41 Francois was suffering from some sort of venerial disease and as a result his sexual prowess wasn’t as it once was..
After K.H’s downfall Henry realised he was just an old fool. They do say “there is no fool like an old fool” He knew that he simply couldn’t keep with the head games that he and Francois had always played, and perhaps he also realised just how pathetic and stupid it really all was to keep playing these games, neither of them was going to win, no matter what they said or did to each other. It was just a case now of waiting to see who died first so the other could celebrate the being the winner of if nothing else of living longer than their rival. Unfortunately Francois won that game as Henry died in Jan of 1547 with Francois popping his clogs just 2 months later.. Even after K.H’s tangled web of passionate teenage love and lust became unraveled, Francois had the last laugh there too, as I’ve already mentioned in a previous post he could resist sending a letter to Henry saying that “I’m sorry to hear of the wanton and naughty behaviour of the Queen” rubbing the pain of K.H betrayal firmly into Henry’s face and adding a lot more salt into the already salt filled sore wounds that Henry was experiencing.
K.H’s betrayal was nowt to do with love, he didn’t love her, and I think K.H perhaps realised that, which is perhaps why she turned to Culpepper, not for sexual comfort (In my opinion there was no form of sexual contact, and they certainly didn’t have intercourse. I also believe that this was also the case when it came to Anne and George. George had been at court for a few years before Anne returned to England and took her place at court, she looked to George just as K.H did to Culpepper for emotional support, and perhaps advice on how to deal with Fat arse Henry when he was in a strop) it was completely to do with shattered ego and sexual prowess. Lets face it Henry was just a fat useless sad sack of crap, whose only great love in his life was himself…
Shurla Burla I believe is a Turkish word loosely meaning “This way and that”

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 30, 2014
12:14 pm
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Aud I agree with you here. Anne was radically different to K.O.A and her firey tempestous nature was a big attraction to Henry. After so many years of married life to K.O.A his sex life with her must have become pretty much as if he was an endless factory production line, he needed something to spice up his sexlife for want of a better word.

In my opinion there would have perhaps been no spontinaity in the sexual relationship between K.O.A and Henry. He would have informed her of his intentions to sleep with her that night either by telling her that himself or via a messager, (providing that she wasn’t having her menstrual cycle at that time, and again that would probably be asked when he made his intentions known about wanting to visit her that night) that fact alone knowing that the whole palace and perhaps even the whole of London would know by the morning, that the King was going to sleep with his wife, would perhaps be very offputting to him at times.
There was probably the issue of how K.O.A looked and acted when he went into the bedroom, there would be set of actions that she would know inside out and back to front she would have followed. I.e
Step 1 Have wash/ clean teeth etc.
Step 2 Put frilly nightie on, put a bit of Evening in London perfume behind your ears.
Step 3 Pour a drink for Henry and possibly have a little bit of bread and meat on standby.
Step 4 Climb into bed and try to look sexy.
Step 5 Listen out for Henry when heard dismiss her ladies.
Step 6 Tell Henry “Come In dear”
Step 7 Lie back and look at the cracks in the ceiling.
Step 8 Breathe a sign of relief it all over
Step 9 Wave bye bye to Henry
Step 10 Blow candle out (if there is anything left to blow out) and go to sleep.

There is also a matter of sexual prowess here (especially when it came to Henry’s ego which as we know was a large and perhaps larger than he was towards the end of his life) We all know that back then the whole reasoning for sex was solely for the procreation of children, however although not to sure about this, in order to acheive that it, it was vital or so I believe, that the woman must orgasm to help that process along, so Henry’s sexual abilities would have been judged in the sence of was he viral and skilled enough to be able to produce the very orgasm needed to bring children forth?
I believe he may have also been judged on how long he was actually in her room for. I’m not saying he would be timed or anything, but certainly if he was only in there for half an hour, there would be gossip. For instance we all know of Henry’s unbridled rivalry towards Francois, so the spies in both courts and there were many would be asked to keep and and eye out for how long it took for both Francois and Henry to have sex.
If Francois took longer than Henry in the bedroom or vice versa/Shurla Burla, it would be gossiped about, and that gossip would eventually get back to both of them, with no doubt a few comments thrown in by either king such as in Francois case to Henry “Ha ha I can go for hours and my wife/mistresses are so well satified, afterwards they can’t walk, Your missus just rolls over and goes to sleep. Just goes to prove only French men know how to make love” I not saying this did happen but given the almost insane jealous rivalry between Henry and Francois, you can possibly believe that this was the case.
Henry’s love for Anne was more of a desperate sort of love, he needed to prove that he outdo his rival Francois. If Anne had bore him a son then maybe he might have developed a much deeper and more compassionate love towards Anne one that goes beyond that of just sex and children if that makes sence.. I suppose they only way to describe it is that although I’m married to a dinky dinosaur who at times I could cheerfully strangle (especially given the insane things he does at times.. The magic roundabout comes to mind here, lets just say dinosaur isn’t normal and I’m not even going there with Thunderbirds.) He’s more than just my husband, he’s my best freind, too. I don’t think Henry ever felt that for Anne or any other of his wives, with the possible exception of perhaps K.P, although she wasn’t his best freind mearly an extremely close freind.
K.O.A was in my opinion his wife and his best freind, she was his true love and as I said in a previous posting her death hit him hard, harder than perhaps he ever realised it would.
Yes he loved Jane but again not in the same way as either K.O.A or Anne. He didn’t love her for her, who she was etc, he loved her purely from the standpoint of that she had given him Edward. If Anne B had brought forth a son he would love her for much the same reason for her son, that’s all. A.O.C well they did become freinds after he had divorced her but again that freindship was based on the fact that she had quietly rolled over and given in to his demands. Did he respect her, yeah he did but again only for the same reasons that she’d rolled over and given in to his demands, secretly he probably abhorred that fact that he had had to shell out all this money, land and property to get shot of her.
K.H was the trophy bride, a oneupmanship stab at Francois to prove that Henry still had what it took to pull the birds, and the sexual prowess to put Francois’s to shame etc… His marriage to K.H had nothing to do with love it was purely of a sexual nature and as I said oneupmanship head games on Francois. The comment made about loud and noisy sex was purely for Francois benefit a kind of rub it in Francois’s face tactic, saying “I’m having a great deal of enjoyable sex Francois, with a beautiful young woman, who I totally adore, and loves me too and we are going to have have many many children. You may have the kids Francois, but your willy is rotting away” I’m not too sure but i believe that it was alledged that by 1540/41 Francois was suffering from some sort of venerial disease and as a result his sexual prowess wasn’t as it once was..
After K.H’s downfall Henry realised he was just an old fool. They do say “there is no fool like an old fool” He knew that he simply couldn’t keep with the head games that he and Francois had always played, and perhaps he also realised just how pathetic and stupid it really all was to keep playing these games, neither of them was going to win, no matter what they said or did to each other. It was just a case now of waiting to see who died first so the other could celebrate the being the winner of if nothing else of living longer than their rival. Unfortunately Francois won that game as Henry died in Jan of 1547 with Francois popping his clogs just 2 months later.. Even after K.H’s tangled web of passionate teenage love and lust became unraveled, Francois had the last laugh there too, as I’ve already mentioned in a previous post he could resist sending a letter to Henry saying that “I’m sorry to hear of the wanton and naughty behaviour of the Queen” rubbing the pain of K.H betrayal firmly into Henry’s face and adding a lot more salt into the already salt filled sore wounds that Henry was experiencing.
K.H’s betrayal was nowt to do with love, he didn’t love her, and I think K.H perhaps realised that, which is perhaps why she turned to Culpepper, not for sexual comfort (In my opinion there was no form of sexual contact, and they certainly didn’t have intercourse. I also believe that this was also the case when it came to Anne and George. George had been at court for a few years before Anne returned to England and took her place at court, she looked to George just as K.H did to Culpepper for emotional support, and perhaps advice on how to deal with Fat arse Henry when he was in a strop) it was completely to do with shattered ego and sexual prowess. Lets face it Henry was just a fat useless sad sack of crap, whose only great love in his life was himself…
Shurla Burla I believe is a Turkish word loosely meaning “This way and that”

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 31, 2014
8:25 am
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Hannele
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Aud said

Hannele said

As for Anne, even Henry’s letters to hear reveal that he felt much more than lust and passion. There was also respect and friendship. She was the only one whom Henry treated (at least some sense) as equal, though only before their marriage.

In addition, although historians seems to have different opinions whether Anne really influenced on Reformation or whether she only read religious books to please Henry so that she could discuss with him, but the fact that they discussed on that kind of serious subject, shows that it was also an union of minds.

And you know what happened when Henry married Anne? He expected herself to conform to the position as Queen and wife and to hold her tongue, shut her eyes and ignore his affairs, and to keep silent and not to interfere in his political affairs. The very things that attracted him to her at first now repelled him, what he tolerated in a “mistress”, he now wouldn’t tolerate in Anne as his wife. The very things that made up her personality and character he would not tolerate. I’m sorry but that isn’t love to me, (feel free to disagree). Sounds like one big chase for Henry, and then once Anne was “conquered” she was to conform herself to his wishes and desires.
– – –
Union of minds? Because they discussed religion?
So what kind of women were Katherine Parr and Katherine of Aragon? Though I would argue these two were each considerably more intelligent than Henry VIII. But you make a good point, was Henry capable of love? It seemed his love was conditional, and it tended to disappear when people failed them and ironically it was for things they couldn’t control. Anne Boleyn and KOA: failure to give birth to a son, Wolsey: couldn’t procure an annulment, Cromwell: a combination of things, unpopular, the Cleves marriage, etc. Henry was a spoiled man with absolute power, and what he wanted he got, and if you were in the way, then you were in serious trouble.

I took Henry and Anne’s discussions about religion as an example that Henry did not feel only lust and passion. Henry’s letters show that also. He really wanted to get to know her. He puzzled him, she was a challenge.

As for their marriage, we really cannot know what went wrong and when. People who told tales to Chapuys was enemies of Anne and he. as as suppporter of KOA, wanted to believe their stories but even he have to admit that it was a question of “lovers’ quarrels” and that the king and concubine were “merry”.

August 31, 2014
8:31 am
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Boleyn said

Aud I agree with you here. Anne was radically different to K.O.A and her firey tempestous nature was a big attraction to Henry. After so many years of married life to K.O.A his sex life with her must have become pretty much as if he was an endless factory production line, he needed something to spice up his sexlife for want of a better word.

In my opinion there would have perhaps been no spontinaity in the sexual relationship between K.O.A and Henry. He would have informed her of his intentions to sleep with her that night either by telling her that himself or via a messager, (providing that she wasn’t having her menstrual cycle at that time, and again that would probably be asked when he made his intentions known about wanting to visit her that night) that fact alone knowing that the whole palace and perhaps even the whole of London would know by the morning, that the King was going to sleep with his wife, would perhaps be very offputting to him at times.
There was probably the issue of how K.O.A looked and acted when he went into the bedroom, there would be set of actions that she would know inside out and back to front she would have followed. I.e
Step 1 Have wash/ clean teeth etc.
Step 2 Put frilly nightie on, put a bit of Evening in London perfume behind your ears.
Step 3 Pour a drink for Henry and possibly have a little bit of bread and meat on standby.
Step 4 Climb into bed and try to look sexy.
Step 5 Listen out for Henry when heard dismiss her ladies.
Step 6 Tell Henry “Come In dear”
Step 7 Lie back and look at the cracks in the ceiling.
Step 8 Breathe a sign of relief it all over
Step 9 Wave bye bye to Henry
Step 10 Blow candle out (if there is anything left to blow out) and go to sleep.

There is also a matter of sexual prowess here (especially when it came to Henry’s ego which as we know was a large and perhaps larger than he was towards the end of his life) We all know that back then the whole reasoning for sex was solely for the procreation of children, however although not to sure about this, in order to acheive that it, it was vital or so I believe, that the woman must orgasm to help that process along, so Henry’s sexual abilities would have been judged in the sence of was he viral and skilled enough to be able to produce the very orgasm needed to bring children forth?
I believe he may have also been judged on how long he was actually in her room for. I’m not saying he would be timed or anything, but certainly if he was only in there for half an hour, there would be gossip. For instance we all know of Henry’s unbridled rivalry towards Francois, so the spies in both courts and there were many would be asked to keep and and eye out for how long it took for both Francois and Henry to have sex.
If Francois took longer than Henry in the bedroom or vice versa/Shurla Burla, it would be gossiped about, and that gossip would eventually get back to both of them, with no doubt a few comments thrown in by either king such as in Francois case to Henry “Ha ha I can go for hours and my wife/mistresses are so well satified, afterwards they can’t walk, Your missus just rolls over and goes to sleep. Just goes to prove only French men know how to make love” I not saying this did happen but given the almost insane jealous rivalry between Henry and Francois, you can possibly believe that this was the case.
Henry’s love for Anne was more of a desperate sort of love, he needed to prove that he outdo his rival Francois. If Anne had bore him a son then maybe he might have developed a much deeper and more compassionate love towards Anne one that goes beyond that of just sex and children if that makes sence.. I suppose they only way to describe it is that although I’m married to a dinky dinosaur who at times I could cheerfully strangle (especially given the insane things he does at times.. The magic roundabout comes to mind here, lets just say dinosaur isn’t normal and I’m not even going there with Thunderbirds.) He’s more than just my husband, he’s my best freind, too. I don’t think Henry ever felt that for Anne or any other of his wives, with the possible exception of perhaps K.P, although she wasn’t his best freind mearly an extremely close freind.
K.O.A was in my opinion his wife and his best freind, she was his true love and as I said in a previous posting her death hit him hard, harder than perhaps he ever realised it would.
Yes he loved Jane but again not in the same way as either K.O.A or Anne. He didn’t love her for her, who she was etc, he loved her purely from the standpoint of that she had given him Edward. If Anne B had brought forth a son he would love her for much the same reason for her son, that’s all. A.O.C well they did become freinds after he had divorced her but again that freindship was based on the fact that she had quietly rolled over and given in to his demands. Did he respect her, yeah he did but again only for the same reasons that she’d rolled over and given in to his demands, secretly he probably abhorred that fact that he had had to shell out all this money, land and property to get shot of her.
K.H was the trophy bride, a oneupmanship stab at Francois to prove that Henry still had what it took to pull the birds, and the sexual prowess to put Francois’s to shame etc… His marriage to K.H had nothing to do with love it was purely of a sexual nature and as I said oneupmanship head games on Francois. The comment made about loud and noisy sex was purely for Francois benefit a kind of rub it in Francois’s face tactic, saying “I’m having a great deal of enjoyable sex Francois, with a beautiful young woman, who I totally adore, and loves me too and we are going to have have many many children. You may have the kids Francois, but your willy is rotting away” I’m not too sure but i believe that it was alledged that by 1540/41 Francois was suffering from some sort of venerial disease and as a result his sexual prowess wasn’t as it once was..
After K.H’s downfall Henry realised he was just an old fool. They do say “there is no fool like an old fool” He knew that he simply couldn’t keep with the head games that he and Francois had always played, and perhaps he also realised just how pathetic and stupid it really all was to keep playing these games, neither of them was going to win, no matter what they said or did to each other. It was just a case now of waiting to see who died first so the other could celebrate the being the winner of if nothing else of living longer than their rival. Unfortunately Francois won that game as Henry died in Jan of 1547 with Francois popping his clogs just 2 months later.. Even after K.H’s tangled web of passionate teenage love and lust became unraveled, Francois had the last laugh there too, as I’ve already mentioned in a previous post he could resist sending a letter to Henry saying that “I’m sorry to hear of the wanton and naughty behaviour of the Queen” rubbing the pain of K.H betrayal firmly into Henry’s face and adding a lot more salt into the already salt filled sore wounds that Henry was experiencing.
K.H’s betrayal was nowt to do with love, he didn’t love her, and I think K.H perhaps realised that, which is perhaps why she turned to Culpepper, not for sexual comfort (In my opinion there was no form of sexual contact, and they certainly didn’t have intercourse. I also believe that this was also the case when it came to Anne and George. George had been at court for a few years before Anne returned to England and took her place at court, she looked to George just as K.H did to Culpepper for emotional support, and perhaps advice on how to deal with Fat arse Henry when he was in a strop) it was completely to do with shattered ego and sexual prowess. Lets face it Henry was just a fat useless sad sack of crap, whose only great love in his life was himself…
Shurla Burla I believe is a Turkish word loosely meaning “This way and that”

Good points, but you left out that king’s marriage was not usually about love and sex (for that one had mistresses), but about legitimate heirs and alliances.

Henry was an odd man in his times in the way he chose some of his wives.

August 31, 2014
12:00 pm
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Aud
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Hannele said

Aud said

Hannele said

As for Anne, even Henry’s letters to hear reveal that he felt much more than lust and passion. There was also respect and friendship. She was the only one whom Henry treated (at least some sense) as equal, though only before their marriage.

In addition, although historians seems to have different opinions whether Anne really influenced on Reformation or whether she only read religious books to please Henry so that she could discuss with him, but the fact that they discussed on that kind of serious subject, shows that it was also an union of minds.

And you know what happened when Henry married Anne? He expected herself to conform to the position as Queen and wife and to hold her tongue, shut her eyes and ignore his affairs, and to keep silent and not to interfere in his political affairs. The very things that attracted him to her at first now repelled him, what he tolerated in a “mistress”, he now wouldn’t tolerate in Anne as his wife. The very things that made up her personality and character he would not tolerate. I’m sorry but that isn’t love to me, (feel free to disagree). Sounds like one big chase for Henry, and then once Anne was “conquered” she was to conform herself to his wishes and desires.
– – –
Union of minds? Because they discussed religion?
So what kind of women were Katherine Parr and Katherine of Aragon? Though I would argue these two were each considerably more intelligent than Henry VIII. But you make a good point, was Henry capable of love? It seemed his love was conditional, and it tended to disappear when people failed them and ironically it was for things they couldn’t control. Anne Boleyn and KOA: failure to give birth to a son, Wolsey: couldn’t procure an annulment, Cromwell: a combination of things, unpopular, the Cleves marriage, etc. Henry was a spoiled man with absolute power, and what he wanted he got, and if you were in the way, then you were in serious trouble.

I took Henry and Anne’s discussions about religion as an example that Henry did not feel only lust and passion. Henry’s letters show that also. He really wanted to get to know her. He puzzled him, she was a challenge.

As for their marriage, we really cannot know what went wrong and when. People who told tales to Chapuys was enemies of Anne and he. as as suppporter of KOA, wanted to believe their stories but even he have to admit that it was a question of “lovers’ quarrels” and that the king and concubine were “merry”.

Exactly, she was a challenge to him, and she wasn’t the only intelligent wife he had nor the only one he discussed religion with. If Chapuys admitted, that the stories he heard where lover’s quarrels then perhaps he wasn’t so blinded by his loyalties? However Anne and Henry quarreled and had issues in their marriage, and at other times was a calm stability. Henry took mistresses (Mary Shelton) during his marriage to Anne and it upset her. As for what went wrong, the miscarriage in January is was what went wrong. Add to the fact of her behavior by lashing out at Henry and getting involved in politics were the icing to the cake.

September 2, 2014
10:59 pm
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Aud said

Exactly, she was a challenge to him, and she wasn’t the only intelligent wife he had nor the only one he discussed religion with. If Chapuys admitted, that the stories he heard where lover’s quarrels then perhaps he wasn’t so blinded by his loyalties? However Anne and Henry quarreled and had issues in their marriage, and at other times was a calm stability. Henry took mistresses (Mary Shelton) during his marriage to Anne and it upset her. As for what went wrong, the miscarriage in January is was what went wrong. Add to the fact of her behavior by lashing out at Henry and getting involved in politics were the icing to the cake.

Mary or Madge Shelton was appaerently chsen by Anne to sweet talk on Anne’s behalf. She supplanted the Imperial Lady over whom Henry and Anne feell out and Jane Boleyn was temporarily removed from court for some reason to o wtthe imperial Lady…possibly trying to incite a fight wth her.

eta..I can speel…

It's always bunnies.

September 2, 2014
11:58 pm
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Anyanka said

Aud said

Exactly, she was a challenge to him, and she wasn’t the only intelligent wife he had nor the only one he discussed religion with. If Chapuys admitted, that the stories he heard where lover’s quarrels then perhaps he wasn’t so blinded by his loyalties? However Anne and Henry quarreled and had issues in their marriage, and at other times was a calm stability. Henry took mistresses (Mary Shelton) during his marriage to Anne and it upset her. As for what went wrong, the miscarriage in January is was what went wrong. Add to the fact of her behavior by lashing out at Henry and getting involved in politics were the icing to the cake.

Mary or Madge Shelton was appaerently chsen by Anne to sweet talk on Anne’s behalf. She supplanted the Imperial Lady over whom Henry and Anne feell out and Jane Boleyn was temporarily removed from court for some reason to o wtthe imperial Lady…possibly trying to incite a fight wth her.

eta..I can speel…

Yeah, I have heard about Jane Boleyn’s dismissal, supposedly she plotted with Anne Boleyn to remove one of Henry’s mistresses from court and was punished with banishment. Jane Parker and her actions and motives during this period are difficult to determine, was she with the Boleyn faction or against it?

September 3, 2014
6:51 pm
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Sharon
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I think Jane was with the Boleyn faction. It would have been to Jane’s benefit as wife to George to side with his family. George had a good future as a diplomat going for them. This was also her family. If they failed, so would she. Picking a fight with Henry’s mistress shows she was willing enough to help Anne. Saying she was angry enough over the banishment to turn on her family is too much of a stretch for me to believe. If I recall, she wasn’t gone that long.
Fiction has really damaged how people view Jane. She is always portrayed as being a disillusioned, jealous wife. If that were so, I find it hard to believe that Anne would have kept her by her side, or trusted her to help rid Henry of one of his mistresses. Anne also trusted her enough to tell her about Henry’s inability to have sex. Despite what happened at the trial, Anne would not have taken Jane into her confidence about her sex life if she had not trusted her.

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