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Was Jane Seymour Henry's True Love?
September 3, 2014
7:35 pm
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Boleyn
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That’s one of the sad parts of the downfall of the Boleyn.. In Henry’s haste to get rid of Anne, he lost perhaps one of the greatest diplomats he could have ever had George.. I believe he would have far excelled his father in that area. Don’t get me wrong Thomas was good and very able, but the world was a changing place, even if Henry hadn’t cast his beady eyes on Anne. Thomas belonged to an age which simply didn’t exist anymore. George was better able to cope with the changes in the world and could also adapt faster to it too.
Jane in my opinion was in love with George, but perhaps he didn’t love her as she did him, but he gave her the dignity and respect she deserved as his wife.
Anne wouldn’t have just trusted anyone with her secrets, and as Sharon says there is no way Anne would have told Jane about her marital problems with Henry if she couldn’t trust her. In fact I think Jane was perhaps the only one she could have really trusted with anything.
Anne’s ladies were of her own choosing, but many of them were involved somewhere along the line with one of Henry’s chosen retainers, and as they say careless talk costs lives.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 4, 2014
3:40 am
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Aud
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Sharon said

I think Jane was with the Boleyn faction. It would have been to Jane’s benefit as wife to George to side with his family. George had a good future as a diplomat going for them. This was also her family. If they failed, so would she. Picking a fight with Henry’s mistress shows she was willing enough to help Anne. Saying she was angry enough over the banishment to turn on her family is too much of a stretch for me to believe. If I recall, she wasn’t gone that long.
Fiction has really damaged how people view Jane. She is always portrayed as being a disillusioned, jealous wife. If that were so, I find it hard to believe that Anne would have kept her by her side, or trusted her to help rid Henry of one of his mistresses. Anne also trusted her enough to tell her about Henry’s inability to have sex. Despite what happened at the trial, Anne would not have taken Jane into her confidence about her sex life if she had not trusted her.

Good point, but something else I think that damages Jane Parker’s reputation and mars her relationship with the Boleyn’s, is her later conduct with Katherine Howard, which doesn’t look good at all.

September 4, 2014
8:42 pm
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Sharon
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True, her reputation has certainly suffered.
Jane was doing what she was asked to do. Serving at court was all Jane had ever known. After what she had gone through with her sister-in-law, I find it hard to believe she thought these meetings a good idea. The blame for these meetings lies at Katherine’s and Culpeper’s door.
Jane made me do it? Seriously?
I agree that gossip later ruined her reputation, but while she was alive there was no gossip about her. This woman was much respected at court. People liked her. She served 5 queens. If she was such a horrible person, Henry certainly wouldn’t have let her back at court after George’s death; and he would never have allowed her to serve his queens, especially Jane.

September 4, 2014
10:05 pm
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Boleyn
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If anything I believe Jane tried to stop Culpepper and K.H meeting. No hope. I think K.H perhaps saw Jane as some sort of a Killjoy. In fact all Jane was trying to prevent scandal breaking out but K.H being a typical teen saw herself as invincible and as the Queen she became a little too sure of herself. Henry loved her that was sure but he loved himself more. K.H was more of a bolster to sure up his ego.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 5, 2014
12:13 am
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Aud
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Sharon said

True, her reputation has certainly suffered.
Jane was doing what she was asked to do. Serving at court was all Jane had ever known. After what she had gone through with her sister-in-law, I find it hard to believe she thought these meetings a good idea. The blame for these meetings lies at Katherine’s and Culpeper’s door.
Jane made me do it? Seriously?
I agree that gossip later ruined her reputation, but while she was alive there was no gossip about her. This woman was much respected at court. People liked her. She served 5 queens. If she was such a horrible person, Henry certainly wouldn’t have let her back at court after George’s death; and he would never have allowed her to serve his queens, especially Jane.

I think Jane Parker should have told Henry what was going on, and yes such a thought would have been terrifying, but look what happened when she didn’t say anything. She was accused of being and accomplice to high treason.

And I agree, Jane didn’t make either one of Katherine or Culpepper do anything! They chose to meet, send gifts and write letters (the one Katherine wrote to Culpepper). Some people like to say that Jane Parker loved the intrigue of court which is why she was involved in the Katherine Howard affair, but that seems very strange to me, she loves intrigue so much that she is willing to risk her life for it?

September 5, 2014
1:07 pm
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Boleyn
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Perhaps she did think about telling Henry about it, but would he have listened? Henry was completely besotted by K.H, his all hallows speech about her makes that point very clear. So I think if she had said anything he wouldn’t have taken any notice.
Perhaps half the reason why Jane was accused of treason was because she knew what was going on but chose to say nothing.
Although I do feel that Henry was also aware that K.H and Culpepper were close to each other, but didn’t realise that everyone else knew as well.
Although Henry and K.H were noted to have had “loud and noisy sex” nothing had come from it (basically because at this point I think Henry was firing blanks) Henry was desperate to produce spare heirs and quickly and as he was perhaps unable to come up with the goods he perhaps may have thought “well if I give all outward show of having a fantastic sex life and she and Culpepper have a quiet jiggle in the back ground and she gets pregnant no one will know any different.” It was said that Culpepper reminded Henry of the Golden haired youth he used to be, if that’s so then it would make sence that Henry would want a child to be as he once was Edward wasn’t exactly healthy he had several illnesses each of one could have carried him off at anytime, and I think Henry was a little disappointed that Edward wasn’t quite the child he was in his youth. He perhaps reminded him of Arthur, who was never really very strong. If K.H had had children boys especially 1 he may have lived a little longer, as we do know that during his marriage to K.H he started to look after himself a little more, not eating so much and exercising a little more. 2 he would have got the son that he dreamed of the golden haired youth who was strong and vibrant just as he himself once was.
Poor Edward was under a lot of pressure to match his father and seriously if there had been other sons, Henry might have named a second and more stronger son as his heir instead. Taking the pressure of Edward and letting the kid live a relatively stress free existance, Edward may have been destined for the church instead of the crown.

Jane like Anne and K.H was just another innocent victim in Henry’s war against the world.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 5, 2014
8:46 pm
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Sharon
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Oh No Boleyn, No! Henry would have never condoned an affair between Katherine and Culpeper, let alone if she came up pregnant by him. Nooooo! Henry wouldn’t stand for it. Why do you think he killed them both? Had he thought they were close like you say, he would have killed them sooner. He would never have hoped they would produce a child that he could call his own. It wasn’t because other people knew about it. Although that did hurt him.

Yes, he had held Culpeper in high regard. These two people broke his heart. And that’s why they died. Henry and Katherine may have enjoyed sex…Henry may have anyway…in the beginning, but his good health didn’t last very long. He became ill at one point and wouldn’t even see her. I’m not sure if they ever got together in that way again.

Edward was surprisingly, healthy. He had been ill with a fever when he was 3, I think, it was, and he was very ill, but he regained his health completely. There was nothing that would have led Henry to think Edward would not live to be king. He was tall and strong. He was going to be just like Henry. Henry would not have had to look for other sons to name in place of Edward. Especially ill gotten children. Absolutely no need.

Now, I am going to go and take an aspirin, and lay down in a darkened room! Wink

September 6, 2014
12:48 am
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Aud
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I agree, there is no way that Henry would have condoned adultery in his wife. That would have been unthinkable to him, and if they had produced a child? That would have been a blow to both him and his dynasty. He would never turn a blind eye or wink at another man’s son being passed of as his and thus a Duke of York and second in line for the throne. He wanted successor to the throne to have Tudor blood in their veins.

I have heard that Edward wasn’t too healthy, but then from I have read, it looks like that his bad health occurred towards the end of his life. I think Henry would have ideally liked a Duke of York, but Edward was living and didn’t seem like he was going to die.

September 6, 2014
10:24 am
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Hannele
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I agree Sharon and Aud. Because Henry liked Culpepper who was his intimate servant, it was even worse to be betrayed by him.

Even today, most men honor such rules that you don’t sleep with your boss’s wife or your friend’s girlfriend. At the time, it was much more important.

September 6, 2014
10:31 am
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Hannele
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Boleyn said Anne’s ladies were of her own choosing

To my knowledge, the Queen’ ladies were not personal choices (with some exception). Many of Anne’s ladies had served already under KOA and continued to serve under Jane Seymour and even later. F.ex. Katherine Parr’s sister Anne, later lady Herbert.

In any case, as Anne was admired by many men, she probably was not liked by women.

September 6, 2014
11:15 am
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Boleyn
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True Aud/Sharon, but who knows what was running through Henry’s mind at that time. He was a desperate man and desperate people do desperate things. Why did Henry refuse to see Katherine for a few months in 1541? Yeah we know he was ill, but all his other wives had seen him ill, and K.P even nursed him through his final years of illness, “Sitting for hours at his feet with his foot in her lap” Is that down to Ego again? In short he didn’t want K.H seeing him unmanned so to speak.
The thing is everyone knew that he was getting past it, that he walked with the aid of a stick, and at times was so bad had to be carried on his chair by his guards, lifted onto his horse by winch, I also believe he had a rundimentary form of a wheelchair made too. Henry may have seen himself as a Golden Sod, stud muffin, who sexual prowess and atheletic ability was extraordinary and almost Sod like. But he was the only one who saw it, and what’s more believed it.
K.H knew she was marrying a fat, stinking, lying, hypocrital, wife murdering, sad sack of crap, lecher, (There you go Aud just a few of the milder names I have for our “enry”) So she knew exactly what she was getting, she also knew that she had a hard task in front of her to keep him happy. The “loud and noisy sex” bit I believe was K.H’s way of keeping his illusions alive in short she faked it. I don’t blame her for this in fact I think she was right to do it, it kept him happy if he was happy then no one could get hurt if that makes sence.
Although I do feel that he may have got a little frustrated that all of his efforts were in vain. If she had got pregnant (I do believe she did at one time think she was) Henry would have been on cloud nine, but I think in all honestly there was never any hope of her ever getting pregnant with Henry, and I actually feel there is a chance that the fault may have lay with both of them. Henry was firing blanks, and the possibility that K.H was incapable of having a child. The reason I say this is because the torrid affair which according to Joan Bulmer, Mary Lasselles and others who were in the Duchesses household at that time, again the words loud and noisy sex were mentioned, that no child ever came from this union. Henry being much older and not in the best of health you can understand having trouble with coming up with the goods, but both K.H and Dereham were young and therefore more likely to conceive, and yet no hint of a pregnancy ever came out. That’s not to say there wasn’t which was carefully hidden away, but I think if there was Mary Lasselles would have spilled the beans there too as she was quick enough to come forward with the Dereham/K.H sex scandal. What makes me laugh is why did Mary Lasselles wait over a year before comming forward?

Edward had the usual childhood illnesses but I think a lot of his illness was down to stress (again) Henry expected too much from him. Henry had the perfect Prince ideal all mapped out from the time he became King. He wanted someone who was like him, an excellent musician, athelete, diplomat, strong, handsome, a Prince of great intellect and intelligence, a ladies man, etc In short a best buddy and drinking and merry making partner. So although Edward was the son he so desired he wasn’t exactly all the things he wanted in a son. I rather think Henry saw in Edward a shadow of what his brother Arthur had been and didn’t like it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 6, 2014
12:44 pm
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Aud
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http://www.kateemersonhistoric…../lists.htm

For anyone interested in knowing the ladies in waiting of the Queens, check this list out. It names the ladies of Queens from Elizabeth of York all the way to Elizabeth I and it even includes Mary, Queen of Scots. I see in some cases, women serving more than one Queen

September 6, 2014
1:54 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn said

Edward had the usual childhood illnesses but I think a lot of his illness was down to stress (again) Henry expected too much from him. Henry had the perfect Prince ideal all mapped out from the time he became King. He wanted someone who was like him, an excellent musician, athelete, diplomat, strong, handsome, a Prince of great intellect and intelligence, a ladies man, etc In short a best buddy and drinking and merry making partner. So although Edward was the son he so desired he wasn’t exactly all the things he wanted in a son. I rather think Henry saw in Edward a shadow of what his brother Arthur had been and didn’t like it.

Edward’s only childhood illness that is recorded is the one I mentioned. After that the next recorded illness is in 1550, long after Henry was dead. He would have seen his son as healthy and strong. Edward was being taught all the things Henry was taught as a child. He was not sickly. Edward was only 9 when Henry died. I doubt Henry would have been thinking that Edward would not be athletic, musical or anything else.
Edward was a strong, intelligent boy. I think he was exactly what Henry wanted.
I love the portrait of Edward. It shows a handsome, intelligent looking young man, standing with hands on hips, just like his father’s portrait. I love the look of it.
I do think Henry would have liked another son, but I think he was well pleased with Edward.

Aud,
Kate Emerson’s site has a wealth of information on women of the Tudor court. I visit there often.

September 6, 2014
8:04 pm
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Aud
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Sharon said

Boleyn said

Edward had the usual childhood illnesses but I think a lot of his illness was down to stress (again) Henry expected too much from him. Henry had the perfect Prince ideal all mapped out from the time he became King. He wanted someone who was like him, an excellent musician, athelete, diplomat, strong, handsome, a Prince of great intellect and intelligence, a ladies man, etc In short a best buddy and drinking and merry making partner. So although Edward was the son he so desired he wasn’t exactly all the things he wanted in a son. I rather think Henry saw in Edward a shadow of what his brother Arthur had been and didn’t like it.

Edward’s only childhood illness that is recorded is the one I mentioned. After that the next recorded illness is in 1550, long after Henry was dead. He would have seen his son as healthy and strong. Edward was being taught all the things Henry was taught as a child. He was not sickly. Edward was only 9 when Henry died. I doubt Henry would have been thinking that Edward would not be athletic, musical or anything else.
Edward was a strong, intelligent boy. I think he was exactly what Henry wanted.
I love the portrait of Edward. It shows a handsome, intelligent looking young man, standing with hands on hips, just like his father’s portrait. I love the look of it.
I do think Henry would have liked another son, but I think he was well pleased with Edward.

Aud,
Kate Emerson’s site has a wealth of information on women of the Tudor court. I visit there often.

I know, isn’t it a great website? It has very useful information about women who played a either a minor or major role during the Tudor period. Very informative.

September 7, 2014
10:29 am
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Boleyn
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I agree Aud it is all good. It’s great we have a place where we Tudorians, can throw in ideas from the simple to the more bizarre (That’s usually from me) and know that we aren’t going to get laughed at or ridiculed in anyway. In short as I say when I welcome new members we are mixed bag of scallywags who enjoy a good debate and a few laughs along the way.
What I find so funny is that within a few days our new posters seem like they’ve always been here. Aud is a prime example hasn’t been here a month and yet it seems like he’s been here years..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 7, 2014
11:20 am
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Hannele
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Boleyn said and the possibility that K.H was incapable of having a child. The reason I say this is because the torrid affair which according to Joan Bulmer, Mary Lasselles and others who were in the Duchesses household at that time, again the words loud and noisy sex were mentioned, that no child ever came from this union. Henry being much older and not in the best of health you can understand having trouble with coming up with the goods, but both K.H and Dereham were young and therefore more likely to conceive, and yet no hint of a pregnancy ever came out.

K.H. and her lovers may have used coitus interraptus which was known at that time though of course it, now any other method was certain. And of course, sex is more than intercourse.

September 7, 2014
2:25 pm
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Aud
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Boleyn said

I agree Aud it is all good. It’s great we have a place where we Tudorians, can throw in ideas from the simple to the more bizarre (That’s usually from me) and know that we aren’t going to get laughed at or ridiculed in anyway. In short as I say when I welcome new members we are mixed bag of scallywags who enjoy a good debate and a few laughs along the way.
What I find so funny is that within a few days our new posters seem like they’ve always been here. Aud is a prime example hasn’t been here a month and yet it seems like he’s been here years..

Tiny correction: I am a she, but thanks, I always enjoy debating Tudor history, and medieval and Early Modern Period in general. Smile

September 7, 2014
3:32 pm
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Boleyn
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Very sorry Aud, I meant no disrespect. History is a facinating subject I always find that there is a sence of Deja vu that seems to happen in whatever period of history you study.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 7, 2014
5:37 pm
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Aud
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It’s okay, I wasn’t insulted or disrespected. But yeah, I myself really became fascinated with history in 2011 and since then my knowledge and interest has expanded.

December 10, 2014
3:55 pm
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If Jane Seymour was Henry’s true love it was because she gave himm the son that Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn couldn’t.
However to me Anne Boleyn really was Henry’s true love since he denified the Catholic Church and even his own people to marry her which he never did for the others.

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