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Katherine of Aragon- Something I was thinking about.
October 17, 2013
6:42 pm
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Sharon
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AnnaKarenina said

Sharon, I wasn’t suggesting that COA intentionally lied under confession. You are correct that to confess a sin and then continue to commit that sin would create another sin. My suggestion was that perhaps her confessors were not completely honest about what was confessed, or that perhaps she didn’t say it under the seal of confession as the has d she did. Either way, either she lied or they did, or the marriage was never consummated. I have always felt that she must be telling the truth if she confessed it that way, even though I find it unlikely that they wouldn’t have had sex if Arthur was able to. May was basically told that she could denounce the church on paper if she were under duress. People received dispensations from the Pope for all kinds of things, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that her confessor knew the truth and she was “allowed” to say what she needed to say to keep the marriage in tact. Although I think this unlikely as there is no evidence of this happening, and the Catholic Church certainly would have kept some record it.

Hi Ami,
Sorry if I sounded contrary. Sometimes I do that. I do agree with you that we will never know for sure who lied and who didn’t. I choose to believe Katherine. I just feel her faith was very strong, and she wouldn’t have lied. That’s all I was trying to say in my roundabout way.

October 17, 2013
7:23 pm
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Sharon
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Olga said
Sharon I don’t think I’ve read that in such detail before, is it from Tremlett’s biography? Which I still have to read.

Olga, yes that is from Tremlett’s book. He does get into who was saying what and when.
I see the same game being played against Katherine as was played against Anne. In this case it was Henry and Wolsey. A few years later, it was Henry and Cromwell. And IMO, Henry also had to destroy five men along with Anne so there would be no one to contradict him. All those lies and the one thing that stuck for 500 years, is the one that hurt Katherine the most. We are to this day questioning Katherine’s virtue. Henry threw everything out to see what would stick. Who would contradict what would have been known only to him and Katherine? Make it a he said/she said. He would always win.
BTW, Tremlett’s book is a good one. Many people didn’t think it was much different from Mattingly’s book, but I enjoyed it.

October 17, 2013
10:26 pm
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Boleyn
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I admire Katherine, for sticking to her guns to be honest, she took face ache’s crap and actually turned it back around onto him, in a roundabout sort of way. If Face ache had brought the Leviticus clause in 1512/13, and tried to divorce her then, it wouldn’t have been such a major issue, as they had only been married for 3 or 4 years, but to stay married to her until 1527, before dragging it up, makes face ache look like a complete tit. Perhaps he had hoped that by setting up a legatine court in England, she would surrender to face ache will. He sort of convinced himself that she would be embarrased to have her marriage with Arthur laid bare in front of the whole world so to speak, but far from embarrased or humiliated she, made face ache look like the Villian, and not the poor bleeding martyr sad sack who loved his wife blah blah blah.
Yes I agree K.O.A’s virginity is something, that has been pondered on for many centuries, but along with Anne, they were the only 2 woman who stood up to a dictorial, vicious, vindictive, piece of shit and won.
Both of these woman were heroines of the age.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 18, 2013
1:15 am
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Anyanka
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Sharon said

Henry threw everything out to see what would stick. Who would contradict what would have been known only to him and Katherine? Make it a he said/she said. He would always win.

Sadly, they still use that tactic today….

It's always bunnies.

October 22, 2013
10:53 am
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Gill
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Boleyn said

Yes I agree K.O.A’s virginity is something, that has been pondered on for many centuries, but along with Anne, they were the only 2 woman who stood up to a dictorial, vicious, vindictive, piece of shit and won.
Both of these woman were heroines of the age.

I don’t think you can say either of them won. Katherine ended her days exiled to a lonely castle and denied the right to see her daughter and most of her friends, heartbroken and virtually alone. Anne was disgraced and murdered. Henry got his own way in the end over both of them.

October 22, 2013
2:20 pm
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Boleyn
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Gill said

Boleyn said

Yes I agree K.O.A’s virginity is something, that has been pondered on for many centuries, but along with Anne, they were the only 2 woman who stood up to a dictorial, vicious, vindictive, piece of shit and won.
Both of these woman were heroines of the age.

I don’t think you can say either of them won. Katherine ended her days exiled to a lonely castle and denied the right to see her daughter and most of her friends, heartbroken and virtually alone. Anne was disgraced and murdered. Henry got his own way in the end over both of them.

This is true, I guess I didn’t explain myself very well (Terrible fault of mine) What I meant was that both K.O.A and Anne didn’t simply roll over and let Henry ride roughshot over them. K.O.A stuck to her guns and because of that Henry took her to court, and showed himself up in the court. That one has to be thought about, but lets face it dragging your love life through the court made him look a fat prat. K.O.A was magnificent, in her day in court her speech to Henry. She gave nothing away and simply left him to it. As a result he had to give evidence solely based on himself and his ego, and made himself look very foolish. I.E. I haven’t brought this up before because of the great love I bear the queen, Yeah right everyone knew that Henry’s brains were in his balls. I can have male children he says, so that says he admits to committing adultery (Bessie Blount). K.O.A was beyond reproach on that score. Plus K.O.A did have a male children, not her fault they died. I believe if Cardinal Campagio authority to try the case hadn’t been revoked, he would have ruled that K.O.A and Henry’s marriage was legal, and that Henry was simply blowing hot air out of his rectum. In short there was no case to answer, especially due to the length of time they had been married. She may have died a lonely forgotten death, but she has been remembered as a Queen of incredible strength and courage. He disinherited Mary and called her a bastard, which did nothing for him and again made himself look a fat prat.
Anne knew that Henry was once again blowing hot air from his rectum, and refused point blank to allow him to cast her off just because he was fed up with her. She was railroaded into her death over lies that both he and Cromwell cooked up, he paid for the verdict and killed her. At the time people perhaps believed the lies he made up about her, lets face it he had wooed her for 7 years before marrying her, why should she suddenly turn around and roger anything that moved including her own brother as Cromwell’s and Face ache’s evidence stated. Anne was hated by the populus, that I can understand after all K.O.A had been Queen a long time, and many people had grown up knowing her as Queen to suddenly replace her with a younger model would have been devestating for them. But I think over time given the how the next 5 or 6 years of his reign, panned out especially after K.H’s murder people started to realise that Anne wasn’t as black as he tried to paint her, and that Lard boy, was just a petulant little boy throwing a paddy when he couldn’t have his own way and a wife murdering piece of S***. K.H was guilty of playing hide the sausage when she was younger with Dereham, before her marriage with the King, but she wasn’t guilty of adultery with Thomas Culpepper. Henry killed K.H purely because of his ego, nothing more. She wasn’t the virgin bride he hoped she was.
He again disinherited Elizabeth and called her bastard, all because she was a girl.
In 1544 he then turned around and said ok Mary and Elizabeth can rule after Eddy providing he has no kids, to me at least that tells me that both K.O.A and Anne were winners. As their fights with him were all about securing the succession for their daughters to the throne of England. Face ache may have won the war but he didn’t win the battle. If they had meekly given in and given up their daughter rights to the throne, there would have still been a girl on it anyway. Mary Queen of Scots, or Lady Jane Grey. Henry had chopped up most of the if not all of the male line. Reginald Pole was alive granted, but would he have given up his religious calling and taken the throne of England, and would the people of England except Reginald. King Reggy 1st LOL. Fact is Mary and Elizabeth did rule England which was something face ache seriously didn’t want.
Mary’s reign granted was a disaster, but Elizabeth was more successful, not only that she actually out did her father, thus shooting his arguement down in flames, that a woman (Princess) was only fit to look pretty and have babies, and that she simply didn’t have the balls to rule a country. In short girls were useless as monarchs. I hope that makes sence.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 22, 2013
2:24 pm
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Boleyn
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Boleyn said

Gill said

Boleyn said

Yes I agree K.O.A’s virginity is something, that has been pondered on for many centuries, but along with Anne, they were the only 2 woman who stood up to a dictorial, vicious, vindictive, piece of shit and won.
Both of these woman were heroines of the age.

I don’t think you can say either of them won. Katherine ended her days exiled to a lonely castle and denied the right to see her daughter and most of her friends, heartbroken and virtually alone. Anne was disgraced and murdered. Henry got his own way in the end over both of them.

This is true, I guess I didn’t explain myself very well (Terrible fault of mine) What I meant was that both K.O.A and Anne didn’t simply roll over and let Henry ride roughshot over them. K.O.A stuck to her guns and because of that Henry took her to court, and showed himself up in the court. That one has to be thought about, but lets face it dragging your love life through the court made him look a fat prat. K.O.A was magnificent, in her day in court her speech to Henry. She gave nothing away and simply left him to it. As a result he had to give evidence solely based on himself and his ego, and made himself look very foolish. I.E. I haven’t brought this up before because of the great love I bear the queen, Yeah right everyone knew that Henry’s brains were in his balls. I can have male children he says, so that says he admits to committing adultery (Bessie Blount). K.O.A was beyond reproach on that score. Plus K.O.A did have a male children, not her fault they died. I believe if Cardinal Campagio authority to try the case hadn’t been revoked, he would have ruled that K.O.A and Henry’s marriage was legal, and that Henry was simply blowing hot air out of his rectum. In short there was no case to answer, especially due to the length of time they had been married. She may have died a lonely forgotten death, but she has been remembered as a Queen of incredible strength and courage. He disinherited Mary and called her a bastard, which did nothing for him and again made himself look a fat prat.
Anne knew that Henry was once again blowing hot air from his rectum, and refused point blank to allow him to cast her off just because he was fed up with her. She was railroaded into her death over lies that both he and Cromwell cooked up, he paid for the verdict and killed her. At the time people perhaps believed the lies he made up about her, lets face it he had wooed her for 7 years before marrying her, why should she suddenly turn around and roger anything that moved including her own brother as Cromwell’s and Face ache’s evidence stated. Anne was hated by the populus, that I can understand after all K.O.A had been Queen a long time, and many people had grown up knowing her as Queen to suddenly replace her with a younger model would have been devestating for them. But I think over time given the how the next 5 or 6 years of his reign, panned out especially after K.H’s murder people started to realise that Anne wasn’t as black as he tried to paint her, and that Lard boy, was just a petulant little boy throwing a paddy when he couldn’t have his own way and a wife murdering piece of S***. K.H was guilty of playing hide the sausage when she was younger with Dereham, before her marriage with the King, but she wasn’t guilty of adultery with Thomas Culpepper. Henry killed K.H purely because of his ego, nothing more. She wasn’t the virgin bride he hoped she was.
He again disinherited Elizabeth and called her bastard, all because she was a girl.
In 1544 he then turned around and said ok Mary and Elizabeth can rule after Eddy providing he has no kids, to me at least that tells me that both K.O.A and Anne were winners. As their fights with him were all about securing the succession for their daughters to the throne of England. Face ache may have won the battle but he didn’t win the war. If they had meekly given in and given up their daughter rights to the throne, there would have still been a girl on it anyway. Mary Queen of Scots, or Lady Jane Grey. Henry had chopped up most of the if not all of the male line. Reginald Pole was alive granted, but would he have given up his religious calling and taken the throne of England, and would the people of England except Reginald. King Reggy 1st LOL. Fact is Mary and Elizabeth did rule England which was something face ache seriously didn’t want.
Mary’s reign granted was a disaster, but Elizabeth was more successful, not only that she actually out did her father, thus shooting his arguement down in flames, that a woman (Princess) was only fit to look pretty and have babies, and that she simply didn’t have the balls to rule a country. In short girls were useless as monarchs. I hope that makes sence.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 22, 2013
6:43 pm
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Bob the Builder
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Boleyn said … Mary Queen of Scots, or Lady Jane Grey…

not at all, neither KOA nor AB ‘triumphed’ over HVIII with regards to the succesion rights of their daughters, he put them in the line of succession – long after their mothers and what influence they had were dead – because they were what he had.

MQoS was – as were the other Stewarts – barred from the succession because they were foreign born, the Greys, while broadly acceptable being of Tudor decent, English and Protestant, were less acceptable than the the fruit of HVIII’s own loins however much he not have blessed their mothers memories or dispared of Mary’s Catholicism.

the Yorkist claimants – the Countess of Salisbury, and her Children, the Poles – were firstly barred from the succession by the Act of Attainder passed against her Father (George, Duke of Clarence) by Edward IV in 1478 – were simply not in the line of succession at any time since the claiming of the throne through right of conquest by Henry Tudor (Henry VII) in 1485. Henry VIII may have started out as a very ‘Yorkist’ Tudor, but that didn’t extend to letting any of them near the line of succession.

October 23, 2013
1:06 am
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Anyanka
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Bob the Builder said

Boleyn said … Mary Queen of Scots, or Lady Jane Grey…

not at all, neither KOA nor AB ‘triumphed’ over HVIII with regards to the succesion rights of their daughters, he put them in the line of succession – long after their mothers and what influence they had were dead – because they were what he had.

MQoS was – as were the other Stewarts – barred from the succession because they were foreign born, the Greys, while broadly acceptable being of Tudor decent, English and Protestant, were less acceptable than the the fruit of HVIII’s own loins however much he not have blessed their mothers memories or dispared of Mary’s Catholicism.

Since Henry still followed the Catholic Rites though in an Anglised form, it was less of Mary’s religion and more that Henry wanted Edward to marry Mary and rule over a joint monarchy of both England/Wales and Scotland with the kingship of Ireland and France thrown in as an after thought.

It's always bunnies.

October 23, 2013
8:01 am
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Sarah
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I have a theory about the whole “Arthur & Katherine: Did they or didn’t they???” : They… “sort of” consummated it. The morning after the marriage Arthur was heard to be boasting to his men through innuendos that he and Katherine had had sex, saying that he had “Been in the midst of Spain” and that It was a good pastime to have a wife. So everyone assumed the marriage was now in fact “true” Even if this was just Arthur boasting to avoid embarrassment and criticism there is no reason that they shouldn’t have consummated the marriage, either the first night or the remaining four months they were married. But there’s a problem with the “Yes” argument: Katherine did not become pregnant. She was certainly not infertile; Just 7 months after her marriage to Henry she bore him a stillborn daughter.Was Arthur impotent? Unlikely, I believe. There’s no evidence or suggestion of it. He may have been young but there is no reason to believe that he was not a healthy, lusty young man.
But what about Katherine? she swore on her faith that it had not been and given her religious conviction I doubt she would endanger her immortal soul. But she must have had some idea of what was expected of her, and I doubt her mother would have sent her all the way across Europe without some knowledge. And if Katherine was ignorant, Arthur was certainly not (as his ‘in spain’ comment suggests!) Henry VII would have made sure of this, after all, his new dynasty depended on their marriage producing offspring (remember Henry VIII was destined for a religious life)

So what the hell happened?

Most likely on their marriage night, exhausted by the days festivities but dedicated to their duty and marriage vows they had a quick teenage fumble but maybe because of embarrassment or some “mechanical” difficulty, maybe Katherine wasn’t lubricated enough for full penetration, maybe it hurt too much so they stopped, who knows. So they stopped for the night and went to sleep, confident “next time” things would go better. The next morning Arthur made his famous comments and Katherine probably confided in Donna Elvira, who would have reassured Catherine but let her know things needed to progress. But things never really took off, (they were teenagers and strangers after all) and before poor Katherine knew it, Arthur was dead.

Just my two cents.

"For her behaviour, manners, attire and tongue she excelled them all."— Lancelot de Carles



 

 

October 23, 2013
11:45 am
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Boleyn
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Sarah it is a difficult one to call. They would have known that it was their duty to consummate their union and produce a child as quick as possible. There was a rumour that K.O.A’s maids saw blood on the bed sheets the morning after the wedding night. They may have had, but has anyone thought that she may have been menstuating? or that her period started in the middle of the night, hence the blood. In which case that would explain the blood.
I rather think that Arthur may have made those comments in boasting, after all the whole reason for for the big show of putting the bride and groom to bed was so they could have sex. If he had said the following morning, “I couldn’t get it up I was so drunk last night.” he would have got laughed at. I believe it’s possible that they perhaps indulged in some heavy foreplay, but nerves probably got the better of both of them and they just couldn’t preform.
K.O.A may have even developed Virginismus. There are many triggers for this condition and stress and anxiety are just 2. K.O.A and Arthur were complete strangers to each other, so it in my opinion could be perfectly possible that this is what happened. As daft as this will sound it’s possible for Arthur to have developed the same conditions,(whatever the male equivilant is if there is one) in the sence that he was so stressed out knowing that he was expected to perform and anxious to do his duty, that he simply couldn’t get an erection. Given time and once they got to know each other a little better sex would have been as natural to them as breathing, unfortunatly they never got the chance to do that.
With Henry things were different she got to know him, so that when it came to the big moment she was able to perform her duty without any trouble at all.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 23, 2013
12:16 pm
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Anyanka said

Bob the Builder said

Boleyn said … Mary Queen of Scots, or Lady Jane Grey…

not at all, neither KOA nor AB ‘triumphed’ over HVIII with regards to the succesion rights of their daughters, he put them in the line of succession – long after their mothers and what influence they had were dead – because they were what he had.

MQoS was – as were the other Stewarts – barred from the succession because they were foreign born, the Greys, while broadly acceptable being of Tudor decent, English and Protestant, were less acceptable than the the fruit of HVIII’s own loins however much he not have blessed their mothers memories or dispared of Mary’s Catholicism.

Since Henry still followed the Catholic Rites though in an Anglised form, it was less of Mary’s religion and more that Henry wanted Edward to marry Mary and rule over a joint monarchy of both England/Wales and Scotland with the kingship of Ireland and France thrown in as an after thought.

I’m not too sure but I think Cramner wanted a much more radical form of worship to what Henry wanted, and because of it Cramner basically had to sit back and go with the flow I.e Henry’s idea of what the church should be now that he was it’s head. So although Cramner had big ideas he could do nothing about them until Lard arse died. (Speed the day so cranmer was thinking) Once Eddy came to the throne he was able to give vent to his thoughts and opinions on how he thought the worship of the country should run. English worship under Eddy’s rule was very different to the English worship under Lard arse. The mess concerning religion was really only sorted out when Elizabeth came to the throne.
Little bit of Trivia here I’ve read recently. It appears that Reggy Pole was under investigation in the Vatican for being a suspected Lutherin. He was recalled to Rome to answer these charges and his replacement was in the wings waiting to come to England, but Mary wouldn’t let him go. When he died later that same day of Mary’s death, the suspision of herecy still hung over his head.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 23, 2013
1:07 pm
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Bob the Builder
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how difficult do modern teengers find it to have sex with someone they met the day before – indeed is there any indication of it being an issue with their contemporaries?

i could easily accept that the wedding night might not have been a glorious success – everyones been up since god knows when, theres drink taken, neither party has ever seen ‘one of those’ until that point, and being a bloke, i recognise defensive male bravado when i see it – but we somehow have to believe that this situation continued for 6 months…

the only thing, imv, which would make this realistic is if Arthur was sexually unfunctioning, and given that we have no evidence that he was, and that it was very much in COA’s interests to say that he was after his death, i don’t see how we could credibly say that they had not consumated the marriage based on ‘she wouldn’t lie..’. everyone ever born has lied, regardless of their professed piety, and someone with a Kingdom to lose has more reason to lie than most.

October 23, 2013
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Something else just popped to mind. I believe there was a language barrier as the only language they were mutually fluent in was Latin BUT ( I remember reading somewhere that) unfortunately both has been taught different pronunciations, so they weren’t able to understand each other very well, if at all. It would have been hard enough to communicate during a normal conversation, but imagine being in bed with someone that, not only you had just met but could barely understand! Especially if you were unsure about the mechanics.. poor dears.

"For her behaviour, manners, attire and tongue she excelled them all."— Lancelot de Carles



 

 

October 23, 2013
4:49 pm
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In what sence do you mean mechanics Sarah? Do you mean about who puts what where? That wouldn’t have been a problem, Isabella and even her sisters would have given her the birds and the bees talk (I never understood why they call it the birds and the bees, for a start off the size difference is an issue, and what happens if the bird got stung halfway through? LOL)
Again I’m not to sure but I believe it was common for younger siblings and daughters to actually be about at the moment a sister or their nmother gave birth, so they would have known, where babies come from.
Latin was their shared language yes but it seems strange to me that considering that K.O.A was betrothed to Arthur as a tot that her parents didn’t think about getting an English tutor to teach her the lingo?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 23, 2013
5:11 pm
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Bob the Builder said

the only thing, imv, which would make this realistic is if Arthur was sexually unfunctioning, and given that we have no evidence that he was, and that it was very much in COA’s interests to say that he was after his death, i don’t see how we could credibly say that they had not consumated the marriage based on ‘she wouldn’t lie..’. everyone ever born has lied, regardless of their professed piety, and someone with a Kingdom to lose has more reason to lie than most.

Thinking about this Bob has given me an idea. Catherine De Medici and Henry 2nd of France aparently had trouble with there lovelife in the early years. This was due to slight abnormalities in their sexual organs as identified by Jean Fernal. he then advised them what they could do to correct this. Once they did as he had advised Catherine became pregnant almost straight away. Is it entirely possible that this was Arthur and K.O.A’s problem too? Every man and woman are contructed differently and it could well be that there construction didn’t fit together, properly.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 23, 2013
6:29 pm
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I’m beginning to understand how KOA must have felt when all this was going on. Cry Wink

October 24, 2013
2:28 am
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Boleyn said

In what sence do you mean mechanics Sarah? Do you mean about who puts what where? That wouldn’t have been a problem, Isabella and even her sisters would have given her the birds and the bees talk (I never understood why they call it the birds and the bees, for a start off the size difference is an issue, and what happens if the bird got stung halfway through? LOL)
Again I’m not to sure but I believe it was common for younger siblings and daughters to actually be about at the moment a sister or their nmother gave birth, so they would have known, where babies come from.
Latin was their shared language yes but it seems strange to me that considering that K.O.A was betrothed to Arthur as a tot that her parents didn’t think about getting an English tutor to teach her the lingo?

Oh no I’m sure Katherine and Arthur knew what went where! but there’s a lot more to sex then just shoving the hotdog in the bun if you get what I mean. I mean perhaps they weren’t aware that Katherine had to be lubricated and completely relaxed and that Arthur to had to be relaxed and aroused and stay aroused. I had a friend in highschool who was unable to do the deed with her boyfriend because although she assured me they were both excited he just couldn’t maintain his erection. There could have been a million things that could have gone wrong.

"For her behaviour, manners, attire and tongue she excelled them all."— Lancelot de Carles



 

 

October 24, 2013
11:22 am
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Sarah said

Boleyn said

In what sence do you mean mechanics Sarah? Do you mean about who puts what where? That wouldn’t have been a problem, Isabella and even her sisters would have given her the birds and the bees talk (I never understood why they call it the birds and the bees, for a start off the size difference is an issue, and what happens if the bird got stung halfway through? LOL)
Again I’m not to sure but I believe it was common for younger siblings and daughters to actually be about at the moment a sister or their nmother gave birth, so they would have known, where babies come from.
Latin was their shared language yes but it seems strange to me that considering that K.O.A was betrothed to Arthur as a tot that her parents didn’t think about getting an English tutor to teach her the lingo?

Oh no I’m sure Katherine and Arthur knew what went where! but there’s a lot more to sex then just shoving the hotdog in the bun if you get what I mean. I mean perhaps they weren’t aware that Katherine had to be lubricated and completely relaxed and that Arthur to had to be relaxed and aroused and stay aroused. I had a friend in highschool who was unable to do the deed with her boyfriend because although she assured me they were both excited he just couldn’t maintain his erection. There could have been a million things that could have gone wrong.

True but back then I don’t think that was that important, it was a case of just getting on with it. I don’t know for sure but I don’t think things such as foreplay were important, that was just wasting time. It was a case of getting into bed probably giving them a kiss which was about as close to foreplay as they got and then getting on with the old game of row row row your boat. (I.e Row row row your boat gently down the stream, skirts up, trousers down, isn’t life a scream) I’m inclined to think that K.O.A got Virginismus, so although Arthur was perfectly able to do the deed when it came to actually trying to, it was like bashing his doodle against a brick wall. he may have been able to penetrate her enough to hurt her and cause her to bleed (hence the blood on the sheets statement) but not enough to break her hymen. So yes in which case she was technically still a virgin when she married Face ache. This also puts an understanding on Arthur’s statement the morning after. He obvisiously believed that what little bit he was able to do was enough for him to believe he’d done the deed.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 25, 2013
5:26 pm
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Sharon
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Not exactly how I would have put it, but I think you are on to something there, Boleyn! Wink

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