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Katherine of Aragon- Something I was thinking about.
February 2, 2013
9:22 am
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Gill
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Alison said

I’d always thought he was like Edward 6th and small and delicate from what I have read or seen on documentaries, Henry was the robust one, Arthur more bookish like Edward, I think in their short marriage they didn’t get alot of time to spend together. I still go with Katherine’s insistance that she was a virgin, she was a very devout Christian so I doubt she’d lie as that’s breaking one of the ten commandments and not in keeping with such a devout lady.

It’s a myth that has been perpetuated for quite a long time, I’ve seen documentaries etc too that make the claim, but they don’t back it up with anything. The fact is there isn’t a shred of evidence from his own time to suggest he was delicate. Yes, it appears that Henry was bigger and stronger, but that doesn’t mean Arthur was weak. The illness that killed him nearly killed Katherine too, although she survived. And they spent six months together at Ludlow. The question to ask is – why WOULDN’T they consummate their marriage? They were young, healthy, and expected to ‘do the business’ and beget an heir…why put it off? Everyone expected them to, and there was no suggestion at the time that the deed had not been done, and family on both sides would have been taking a keen interest in things like that.

I don’t buy the ‘religious people don’t lie’ idea. Plenty of very religious people have told lies (not to mention ‘thou shalt not kill…’ the church itself has frequently condoned killing,) – especially if they think it will further what they believe are god’s wishes.

February 2, 2013
9:59 am
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Jasmine
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Absolutely, Gill – I think you have hit the nail on the head!

Catherine had a vested interest in being married to Henry. Later, she had her daughter’s rights to protect.

History has shown us many examples of religious people telling lies, especially when personal or political power is at stake.

February 2, 2013
11:53 am
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KellyMarie
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Even if he was healthy though, it still doesn’t take away from the fact he was just a child. I can’t imagine my little cousin who is 9 ruling a country!

Also I never understood why Elizabeth was barred from the succession in Edwards will. She was a protestant…well middle ground but that never came out until she actually ruled. Why not just miss out Mary? Or was it the fact that they were both declared bastards and so to bar Mary from succession he had to bar Elizabeth also?

Woohoo I'm normal...gotta go tell the cat!

February 2, 2013
7:03 pm
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Gill
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I presume you are talking about Edward, not Arthur…? Arthur was 15…

February 2, 2013
8:20 pm
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josrex
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We have to remember that Catherine was only sixteen years old at the time, (still a child) of her marriage to Arthur. One can only imagine how terrified she must have been when Married and Widowed in a matter of weeks, in a foreign land. She arrived in England a solution, and after Arthur’s death, deemed a problem by duplicitous and scheming men (her father and father-in-law) who held her fate in their grubby hands, (a woman’s lot in those times). But thanks to the advice of the women around her, who were placed there to protect her, Catherine overcame the odds. Methinks it was a clear case of the women outwitting the men.

February 3, 2013
12:05 am
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Boleyn
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josrex said

We have to remember that Catherine was only sixteen years old at the time, (still a child) of her marriage to Arthur. One can only imagine how terrified she must have been when Married and Widowed in a matter of weeks, in a foreign land. She arrived in England a solution, and after Arthur’s death, deemed a problem by duplicitous and scheming men (her father and father-in-law) who held her fate in their grubby hands, (a woman’s lot in those times). But thanks to the advice of the women around her, who were placed there to protect her, Catherine overcame the odds. Methinks it was a clear case of the women outwitting the men.

She probably wasn’t as terrified as you think, homesick possibly, but bear in mind she had been brought up knowing that one day she would go off to a land far from home to become it’s Queen and marry a boy, who she only knew through diplomatic letters. They did write to one another I believe in Latin. You have got to bear in mind that so many forgien princess would have been in the same position.
At the age of 15 when COA came to England she would have had enough about her to adapt very easily to her new surroundings. The Queen I most pity is poor little Isabella of France, she was around 6 when she came to England to be Queen.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 3, 2013
1:09 am
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Anyanka
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Exactly Boleyn..these people weren’t what we consider teens or pre-teens..they were adults or pre-adults and expected to act as adults. Women were routinely moved across Europe to marry whoever their father thought would make the best ally or give them the most money.

Katherine and her siblings were lucky enough to marry some-one who was of a similar age to them. Mary Tudor had to marry a much older man who died fairly soon afterwards.

When you have been brought up to be queen of England from a young age…you’re not going to be afraid of the marriage ..possibly of the travelling to get there. She was more likely to be excited to fulfill her destiny.

KOA must have been devistated to lose her husband after 5 months especially as she was suffering from the same illness herself. Who can tell what she felt she suffered though her years of widow-hood before Henry finally married her.

It's always bunnies.

February 3, 2013
6:57 pm
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Boleyn
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Also one has to consider than girls (especially those of the nobility) weren’t exactly given the freedom to enjoy childhood. Their childhood probably lasted all of about 4 or 5 years, after that it was time to put away their dolls and other toys, and behave like their mothers. So KOA from a early age would have behaved with the same decorum as her mother did.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 5, 2013
3:56 pm
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KellyMarie
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Gill said

I presume you are talking about Edward, not Arthur…? Arthur was 15…

Hi yes sorry I was talking about Edward. I hadn’t realised the few posts above me where hte conversation had reverted back, oops!

Woohoo I'm normal...gotta go tell the cat!

February 6, 2013
2:53 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Also one has to consider than girls (especially those of the nobility) weren’t exactly given the freedom to enjoy childhood. Their childhood probably lasted all of about 4 or 5 years, after that it was time to put away their dolls and other toys, and behave like their mothers. So KOA from a early age would have behaved with the same decorum as her mother did.

True dat..reading round about how Mary, Elizabeth and to an extent Lady Jane were educated to be both perfect consorts as well as perfect hostsesses, housewives, mentors for younger women as well as those of lesser rank..makes you wonder how they had any time for themselves.

It's always bunnies.

February 6, 2013
11:13 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Boleyn said

Also one has to consider than girls (especially those of the nobility) weren’t exactly given the freedom to enjoy childhood. Their childhood probably lasted all of about 4 or 5 years, after that it was time to put away their dolls and other toys, and behave like their mothers. So KOA from a early age would have behaved with the same decorum as her mother did.

True dat..reading round about how Mary, Elizabeth and to an extent Lady Jane were educated to be both perfect consorts as well as perfect hostsesses, housewives, mentors for younger women as well as those of lesser rank..makes you wonder how they had any time for themselves.

It’s the mear thought of the girls having to wear the same stiff garments as their mother’s that really gets me. They must have felt very uncomfortable and perhaps even heavy, at times, for them to have to lug about everywhere.
I don’t think they had anytime for themselves to be honest. Every minute of their day and night was almost run on a regimented disipline, and I think even a kid’s playtime (if it could be called that) was basically something along the lines of 10 minutes of reciting prayers, or poetry and 30 miutes of playing the virginals. COA whole life was just an endless round of disiplined play routines, there was no spontianty, after about the age of about 5 anyway. LOL could you imagine Elizabeth or Mary playing with a barbie doll or one of those girl’s world model heads and experimenting with make up, and heaven knows what little Eddy would have made of a playstation or an Xbox. The internet would have been seen as a frivilous and devil made instrument. Now there’s a thought Eddy watching the documentary’s on You tube of his father’s cock up’s..
I suppose we should be very thankful for the fact that in today’s socaty kids can be kids

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 7, 2013
5:02 pm
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KellyMarie
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That’s probably another reason why the children were able to worship their father, they only heard what their father wanted them to her about him….ther was no documentaryies or news coverage they could get their hands on and think “oh great, he’s done it again!”

Its funny though, kids can be kids these days and yet all they want to do is pretend they’re adults….strange!

Woohoo I'm normal...gotta go tell the cat!

February 7, 2013
6:23 pm
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Boleyn
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KellyMarie said

That’s probably another reason why the children were able to worship their father, they only heard what their father wanted them to her about him….ther was no documentaryies or news coverage they could get their hands on and think “oh great, he’s done it again!”

Its funny though, kids can be kids these days and yet all they want to do is pretend they’re adults….strange!

In that respect, the reality of what her father truly was to what she believed he was must have hit Mary pretty hard. Fot the first 10 years or so of her life, her father was a Goldeen God who couldn do anything, but in reality he was as far from the Golden god she believed. A Golden Sod would be a more apt description. She must have gone through hell the poor mite, small wonder she messed up so badly when it was her time to sit on the throne, and flush England away. Elizabeth from the start was under no illusions and a great deal of that was due to the way she was brought up. Mary was seen as the much wanted and loved daughter and was in some ways wrapped up in so many layers of cotton wool she was blind deaf and dumb to the real Henry, and that was mostly down to Catherine who saw and often still viewed Henry as a large unruly child.
Anne on the other hand exposed the true Henry and showed Elizabeth the real man behind all the glitter and gold, put simply a man never to be trusted, a scoundrel, a liar and a murderer. I think part of her decision to never marry apart from K.H murder was down to what she saw in her father and was determined never to be allowed to be ruled by any man.
Eddy was simply afraid of him, Mary was afraid of him but Elizabeth was just indifferent to him. She was a wily girl/woman and learnt how to handle him as my chipmunks know how to open peanuts in short with skill.

I agree about the kids these days playing at adults, but really it all boils down to the fact that they really are only still kids. In COA days they we seen as minature adults and were expected to act, talk and be adults. Kids running around the palaces yelling and screaming was simply not done.
LOL Could you imagine COA comming in from a night out on the town, as drunk as a skunk with a fag in a gob, high heels short skirt and her boobs hanging out of a top. I think Isabella would have had a fit. LOL

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 7, 2013
7:03 pm
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KellyMarie
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Boleyn said

I agree about the kids these days playing at adults, but really it all boils down to the fact that they really are only still kids. In COA days they we seen as minature adults and were expected to act, talk and be adults. Kids running around the palaces yelling and screaming was simply not done.
LOL Could you imagine COA comming in from a night out on the town, as drunk as a skunk with a fag in a gob, high heels short skirt and her boobs hanging out of a top. I think Isabella would have had a fit. LOL

Oh dear what an imagine haha. I think Isabella would have had her daugher burned at the stake as a heretic if anything remotely similar had occured lol.

Woohoo I'm normal...gotta go tell the cat!

February 7, 2013
7:06 pm
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Sharon
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Okay Boleyn, I will not be able to get the picture of Isabelle seeing Katherine falling out of her gown and tripping in drunk out of my head! HAH!

Mary worshipped her father and blamed Anne for the way she was being treated. She found out quick enough after Anne was murdered, that Dad was the one to blame when he sent the Duke to threaten her. He would not accept her until she signed the oath. She must have been so scared. But love him, she did. Elizabeth also loved her father. At least she said she did. She seemed to be proud of him as king. But I think this girl saw through him. He is one of the main reasons she never married. She was not going to let a man have the kind of power over her that Henry had over his wives. I don’t know that much about Edward, but of all of them I would think he was the one who wouldn’t have had the issues that his sisters had with Henry. He was only 9 when Henry died.
I wish I knew exactly how they felt about Henry. We read that they loved and honored him, but I wish I knew if they ever thought of him as a Golden Sod? Wink

February 7, 2013
7:09 pm
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KellyMarie
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Oh no hte image the images!! Far too hilarious. A drunken Catherine telling her mother to ease up and to “take a chill pill”

Woohoo I'm normal...gotta go tell the cat!

September 30, 2013
10:34 am
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annacarina1
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I hated how Philippa Gregory portrayed Catherine of Aragon in The Constant Princess. She almost ruined my perception of COA as faithful, stubborn, determined and a good queen. In the book COA lied about her virginity, was so ambitious to the point of it being annoying, and was just plain bitchy. It made it seem like Henry was right to divorce Catherine on the grounds of her being his brother’s widow, and that she was a sneaky, conniving woman who was too ambitious for her own good. It infuriated me to see Catherine portrayed in such a manner.

October 3, 2013
9:18 am
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Mimico
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Phillipa Gregory has a way of doing that, making strong female characters into manipulative scheming cows (Anne Boleyn, Catherine of Aragon, Margaret Beaufort, etc).

October 9, 2013
12:09 am
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annacarina1
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I noticed!! But still, even thought Elizabeth Woodville was (i think) a schemer, she was portrayed as a nice person. Though PG has said that she liked the historical figure of Elizabeth Woodville…
Anyway, I think COA was a virgin when she married Henry, and did not lie about her virginity. Arthur was sickly, seemingly, so maybe they did not consummate their love.

October 9, 2013
2:57 am
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Boleyn
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annacarina1 said

I noticed!! But still, even thought Elizabeth Woodville was (i think) a schemer, she was portrayed as a nice person. Though PG has said that she liked the historical figure of Elizabeth Woodville…
Anyway, I think COA was a virgin when she married Henry, and did not lie about her virginity. Arthur was sickly, seemingly, so maybe they did not consummate their love.

S.W.M.N.B.N said the same about Anne Boleyn, but her maybe/almost certainly radio interview didn’t reflect that.
Starkey puts the words of the dispensation that K.O.A and Henry needed to marry as a kind of belt and braces affair. Left open to debate I think is the best way to describe that. I believe that Arthur and K.O.A did some heavy petting but I don’t believe they had intercourse. I read somewhere many years ago that her maids did see blood on her sheets the morning after they had bedded together, but K.O.A explained this by saying she had pricked her heel and wiped the blood on the sheets to spare Arthur’s ineptitude at being able to perform. We will never know if Arthur and K.O.A had sex, but Henry made himself believe they had. He was having doubts about his marriage with K.O.A as early as 1513 I believe, but chose to ignore them. I believe that K.O.A was a virgin.
Personally I think Henry was a hypocrite of the highest order. In fact if there was an olympic sport in hypocracy Henry would win all 3 medal just by opening his gob.
Elizabeth Woodville I don’t think was a schemer as such, she mearly took an oppotunity that happen to come her way.. The saying “Never look a gift horse in the mouth” comes to mind here.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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