Alison said

I’d always thought he was like Edward 6th and small and delicate from what I have read or seen on documentaries, Henry was the robust one, Arthur more bookish like Edward, I think in their short marriage they didn’t get alot of time to spend together. I still go with Katherine’s insistance that she was a virgin, she was a very devout Christian so I doubt she’d lie as that’s breaking one of the ten commandments and not in keeping with such a devout lady.

It’s a myth that has been perpetuated for quite a long time, I’ve seen documentaries etc too that make the claim, but they don’t back it up with anything. The fact is there isn’t a shred of evidence from his own time to suggest he was delicate. Yes, it appears that Henry was bigger and stronger, but that doesn’t mean Arthur was weak. The illness that killed him nearly killed Katherine too, although she survived. And they spent six months together at Ludlow. The question to ask is – why WOULDN’T they consummate their marriage? They were young, healthy, and expected to ‘do the business’ and beget an heir…why put it off? Everyone expected them to, and there was no suggestion at the time that the deed had not been done, and family on both sides would have been taking a keen interest in things like that.

I don’t buy the ‘religious people don’t lie’ idea. Plenty of very religious people have told lies (not to mention ‘thou shalt not kill…’ the church itself has frequently condoned killing,) – especially if they think it will further what they believe are god’s wishes.

Even if he was healthy though, it still doesn’t take away from the fact he was just a child. I can’t imagine my little cousin who is 9 ruling a country!

Also I never understood why Elizabeth was barred from the succession in Edwards will. She was a protestant…well middle ground but that never came out until she actually ruled. Why not just miss out Mary? Or was it the fact that they were both declared bastards and so to bar Mary from succession he had to bar Elizabeth also?

We have to remember that Catherine was only sixteen years old at the time, (still a child) of her marriage to Arthur. One can only imagine how terrified she must have been when Married and Widowed in a matter of weeks, in a foreign land. She arrived in England a solution, and after Arthur’s death, deemed a problem by duplicitous and scheming men (her father and father-in-law) who held her fate in their grubby hands, (a woman’s lot in those times). But thanks to the advice of the women around her, who were placed there to protect her, Catherine overcame the odds. Methinks it was a clear case of the women outwitting the men.

Exactly Boleyn..these people weren’t what we consider teens or pre-teens..they were adults or pre-adults and expected to act as adults. Women were routinely moved across Europe to marry whoever their father thought would make the best ally or give them the most money.

Katherine and her siblings were lucky enough to marry some-one who was of a similar age to them. Mary Tudor had to marry a much older man who died fairly soon afterwards.

When you have been brought up to be queen of England from a young age…you’re not going to be afraid of the marriage ..possibly of the travelling to get there. She was more likely to be excited to fulfill her destiny.

KOA must have been devistated to lose her husband after 5 months especially as she was suffering from the same illness herself. Who can tell what she felt she suffered though her years of widow-hood before Henry finally married her.

Gill said

I presume you are talking about Edward, not Arthur…? Arthur was 15…

Hi yes sorry I was talking about Edward. I hadn’t realised the few posts above me where hte conversation had reverted back, oops!

Anyanka said

Boleyn said

Also one has to consider than girls (especially those of the nobility) weren’t exactly given the freedom to enjoy childhood. Their childhood probably lasted all of about 4 or 5 years, after that it was time to put away their dolls and other toys, and behave like their mothers. So KOA from a early age would have behaved with the same decorum as her mother did.

True dat..reading round about how Mary, Elizabeth and to an extent Lady Jane were educated to be both perfect consorts as well as perfect hostsesses, housewives, mentors for younger women as well as those of lesser rank..makes you wonder how they had any time for themselves.

It’s the mear thought of the girls having to wear the same stiff garments as their mother’s that really gets me. They must have felt very uncomfortable and perhaps even heavy, at times, for them to have to lug about everywhere.
I don’t think they had anytime for themselves to be honest. Every minute of their day and night was almost run on a regimented disipline, and I think even a kid’s playtime (if it could be called that) was basically something along the lines of 10 minutes of reciting prayers, or poetry and 30 miutes of playing the virginals. COA whole life was just an endless round of disiplined play routines, there was no spontianty, after about the age of about 5 anyway. LOL could you imagine Elizabeth or Mary playing with a barbie doll or one of those girl’s world model heads and experimenting with make up, and heaven knows what little Eddy would have made of a playstation or an Xbox. The internet would have been seen as a frivilous and devil made instrument. Now there’s a thought Eddy watching the documentary’s on You tube of his father’s cock up’s..
I suppose we should be very thankful for the fact that in today’s socaty kids can be kids

KellyMarie said

That’s probably another reason why the children were able to worship their father, they only heard what their father wanted them to her about him….ther was no documentaryies or news coverage they could get their hands on and think “oh great, he’s done it again!”

Its funny though, kids can be kids these days and yet all they want to do is pretend they’re adults….strange!

In that respect, the reality of what her father truly was to what she believed he was must have hit Mary pretty hard. Fot the first 10 years or so of her life, her father was a Goldeen God who couldn do anything, but in reality he was as far from the Golden god she believed. A Golden Sod would be a more apt description. She must have gone through hell the poor mite, small wonder she messed up so badly when it was her time to sit on the throne, and flush England away. Elizabeth from the start was under no illusions and a great deal of that was due to the way she was brought up. Mary was seen as the much wanted and loved daughter and was in some ways wrapped up in so many layers of cotton wool she was blind deaf and dumb to the real Henry, and that was mostly down to Catherine who saw and often still viewed Henry as a large unruly child.
Anne on the other hand exposed the true Henry and showed Elizabeth the real man behind all the glitter and gold, put simply a man never to be trusted, a scoundrel, a liar and a murderer. I think part of her decision to never marry apart from K.H murder was down to what she saw in her father and was determined never to be allowed to be ruled by any man.
Eddy was simply afraid of him, Mary was afraid of him but Elizabeth was just indifferent to him. She was a wily girl/woman and learnt how to handle him as my chipmunks know how to open peanuts in short with skill.

I agree about the kids these days playing at adults, but really it all boils down to the fact that they really are only still kids. In COA days they we seen as minature adults and were expected to act, talk and be adults. Kids running around the palaces yelling and screaming was simply not done.
LOL Could you imagine COA comming in from a night out on the town, as drunk as a skunk with a fag in a gob, high heels short skirt and her boobs hanging out of a top. I think Isabella would have had a fit. LOL

Okay Boleyn, I will not be able to get the picture of Isabelle seeing Katherine falling out of her gown and tripping in drunk out of my head! HAH!

Mary worshipped her father and blamed Anne for the way she was being treated. She found out quick enough after Anne was murdered, that Dad was the one to blame when he sent the Duke to threaten her. He would not accept her until she signed the oath. She must have been so scared. But love him, she did. Elizabeth also loved her father. At least she said she did. She seemed to be proud of him as king. But I think this girl saw through him. He is one of the main reasons she never married. She was not going to let a man have the kind of power over her that Henry had over his wives. I don’t know that much about Edward, but of all of them I would think he was the one who wouldn’t have had the issues that his sisters had with Henry. He was only 9 when Henry died.
I wish I knew exactly how they felt about Henry. We read that they loved and honored him, but I wish I knew if they ever thought of him as a Golden Sod?

I hated how Philippa Gregory portrayed Catherine of Aragon in The Constant Princess. She almost ruined my perception of COA as faithful, stubborn, determined and a good queen. In the book COA lied about her virginity, was so ambitious to the point of it being annoying, and was just plain bitchy. It made it seem like Henry was right to divorce Catherine on the grounds of her being his brother’s widow, and that she was a sneaky, conniving woman who was too ambitious for her own good. It infuriated me to see Catherine portrayed in such a manner.

I noticed!! But still, even thought Elizabeth Woodville was (i think) a schemer, she was portrayed as a nice person. Though PG has said that she liked the historical figure of Elizabeth Woodville…
Anyway, I think COA was a virgin when she married Henry, and did not lie about her virginity. Arthur was sickly, seemingly, so maybe they did not consummate their love.