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Edward VI
July 30, 2014
9:35 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you Anyanka… I’m not too sure but I think that love between a man and a woman after they had married was viewed as a bit disgusting and not considered normal. Marriage was as you say for purely diplomatic and financial inprovement, that’s not to say there weren’t so called love matches, but I don’t think it was love in the conventual sence of the word. More like a mutually beneficial type of love.
It was Henry’s love for Anne that changed the whole meaning of it.
His marriage with K.O.A had been a marriage purely in my opinion to show the world that he was big enough and old enough to show the world he was man enough to take on the world, (in his case France) I never understood why H7 set up a regency for him. At 17 he was certainly old enough to take the reins of power into his hands. R2 took power over the realm at 13, with the Wat Tyler revolt, so at 16. H8 at 17 was more than capable. H8 had a set agenda when he became King, and that was to do and excel what his (IMO) hero H5 tried to do, storm into France and take the French throne for himself. He couldn’t do that solely on his own he needed help. Ferdinand of Aragon, and Maximillion, had vast armies, the only way to gain their support to help him was to marry K.O.A. He would get his army and the French throne, just because he married K.O.A.

I do agree that I can’t see Edward marrying Jane even if he had wanted to, there was no profit or advantages to be gained by it.
Although I agree that either Mary QOS or Elizabeth of France would be suitable matches for Edward (if he had lived that is) I don’t think he would have considered either of them. He was predominately Protestant this would bound to cause major issues if he considered marriage with a Catholic Queen/Princess. So whilst I agree that a marriage with Elizabeth of France would be a good deal for England all round by and large I think Edward would not even consider such a match purely on the basis of her religion. I think the same could be said of Mary QOS, and good idea but not practical on the pure basis of relgion. Mary QOS was given the free use of her religious beliefs when she returned to Scotland I.e given the use of a Private Chapel and her own Priest. She refused to work with the Lords of the Congregation as they were called and their leader John Knox and because of it ended up being turfed out of Scotland and gave Elizabeth a migraine instead. Mary’s plotting in England against Elizabeth, (there were 3 plots in all The Ridolphi plot the Throckmorton Plot and the final plot which led to her demise the Babington Plot.) shows to me at least she was out to commit mayhem and murder all in the name of the Catholic religion. Mary was without a doubt was a weak minded fool, in the sence of she had a one track mind, she allowed her heart to rule her head and acted impulsively. Neither of these attributes Edward would have found attractive, and would perhaps reason out that such attributes wouldn’t be of any use to his people either.
Remember the whole reason to why Lady Jane Grey was railroaded onto the block was because no one wanted a Catholic ruler on the throne of England. (I also feel that the events of Charles 1st and his demise (murder) at Cromwell hands were down in part to having a Catholic Queen.)

For some reason I kind of have Edwards ideal woman/wife would be someone of sister’s Elizabeth mind, resolute and determined to do what was best for her country and her people. Only submissive and docile as his own mother had been.
Isabella de Medici the daughter of Cosimo Duke of Tuscany, who was born in 1542 or Archduchess Barbara of Austria who was born in 1539. Or Joanna of Austria born in 1547. all of these woman (there were many princesses and duchesses who would have been of marriagable age) if Edward had lived long enough to get that far. I don’t think that Edward would have just plumped for the first choice thrown at hm for a Queen he would have thought long and hard about the whole situation and which potential mate would be of better benefit to England. I also think he wouldn’t marry a child bride, who had a few years to go before children could start to come along. He would be keen to get the succesion secured as soon as possible and have a couple of spares in the nursery as well.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 31, 2014
4:47 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

I do agree that I can’t see Edward marrying Jane even if he had wanted to, there was no profit or advantages to be gained by it.
Although I agree that either Mary QOS or Elizabeth of France would be suitable matches for Edward (if he had lived that is) I don’t think he would have considered either of them. He was predominately Protestant this would bound to cause major issues if he considered marriage with a Catholic Queen/Princess. So whilst I agree that a marriage with Elizabeth of France would be a good deal for England all round by and large I think Edward would not even consider such a match purely on the basis of her religion. I think the same could be said of Mary QOS, and good idea but not practical on the pure basis of relgion.

Edward’s choice of royal brides was rather limited, if he wished to head down the fledging Anglican rather than Lutheran Protestantism. Nearly all of the European royals and noble who had abandoned Roman Catholism had taken up Lutherism which Edward and his councilors also deplored.

There were several Swedish princess of a similar age, some royal ladies of several Germanic states and possibly some of the Habsburghs’ Netherlands regents. But non-Catholic brides with the family influence and money to return England to the position she held at the start of Henry VII’s reign were few and far between.

If Edward wanted to throw off the state of affairs that was left to him by the dealuving of his currecy under both his uncle, the Duke of Somerset and latterly John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland, he needed an alliance with a powerful European family. Which left France,/Scotland or the Habsburghs . England at that time needed the support of one or another of those powers to rade in continental Eurpe and revie her fortunes.

It's always bunnies.

July 31, 2014
11:37 am
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Boleyn
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Totally agree Anyanka. Protestism was growing but for the most part the Europeon courts were still largely Catholic. I was thinking of a possible Nordic queen but as you right say they were mainly Lutheran courts, but then a Lutheran queen would have certainly been better than a Catholic Queen. Fact is that Edward knew that apart from keeping together a very trouble country Religion wise, his main job would be to marry and get the succession secured. Certainly I think he would have chosen a bride with extreme care, one that wouldn’t push herself forward or try to promote her own religious views onto others. Edward may have abbored the idea of having a Lutheran Queen but I think for the sake of the country and the Tudor line of succesion to carry on he would put aside his personal feelings and get on with it. A Luteran Queen would be better than no Queen at all.
Although I rather think the marriage would be a very cold and almost clinical sort of a marriage. There would be respect but that is all. In the drama “Gunpowder, Treason and Plot.” the second part which deals predomately with James 6th/1st reign etc. There is a scene in which he meets Anne of Denmark. He states to her “You will never love me, I will never love you, but you will have my respect, but if you should whisper words of love I will know they are false and you will lose my respect.” I rather think that would be Edward’s whole view towards the woman he has chosen for a bride. She would be his queen for sure and the mother of his children but that would be all. Basically apart from the occational court visit when she needed for diplomatic purposes etc. or his visits to her bedchamber when another baby was needed, he would do a Greta Garbo “I want to be alone” (Although what she actually said was “I want to be left alone”) For the most part getting the religion of the country into order would be an apsolute must…

I wonder, how he would have dealt with Mary in the end? We all know that Henry bullied Mary and threatened her life if she didn’t conform to his way of thinking, which as we know worked. Mary backed down meekly (if somewhat reluctantly) and submitted to her father’s will. Edward I know railed against her because of her religious views and the fact that she openly celebrated Mass and often encouraged other Catholics to join her. Thus openly defing Edward. I think she viewed as a little lost boy, and too young to understand her beliefs.. Actually Edward was very intelligent and perhaps understood more than she realised. How would he have dealt with her continued defiance? Would he have her imprisoned in the tower, forced her to marry one of his protestant nobles? or worse case scenerio charge her with treason and have her executed.

All the while Henry was alive Mary sort of had the protection of the Spanish monarchs in the sence that if Henry turned a hair on her head they would come down on him like a tonne of bricks.. This was perhaps more likely to happen if K.O.A had still been alive, but for the most part Charles really wasn’t that bothered with her. If Edward had her executed what would happen? would the Catholics of the country risen up and sought revenge? To be honest there would be no point, Mary was dead. The next in line after that was Elizabeth and she was a protestant as Edward. After Elizabeth as stated in Henry’s 1544 will/act of succession the next in line after Elizabeth was the Grey girls again protestant. So Edward therorecially could execute Mary and get away with it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 1, 2014
1:29 pm
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LadyPrincess
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I’d like to think that Edward would have at least left Mary alone at Kennighall. There she would not marry and produce no rival to the throne.

But Edward was so consumed with spreading Protestantism that it’s hard to say for sure. I recall reading that once a foreign wedding with a Catholic princess was considered and he is quoted as saying something like he could persuade her to change religions? I think he thought he could change Mary’s too.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 1, 2014
5:34 pm
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Boleyn
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There was no way on earth Mary would have even considered changing her religion, even if Edward forced the issue with her.. David Starkey points out that Cathosium, the mass and all the glitz and glamour (loosely worded) underpinned her whole life. Bear in mind that Henry had bullied her into submission which utterly betrayed everything her mother believed and what she fought for from the time Henry asked her(K.O.A) for a divorce. The only thing that had any meaning in her life now was her religion, without it I think she would actually pine away and die.
Edward was determined that the country and everyone in it would except and conform to his form of worship. If he had allowed Mary the privilage of practising her Catholic faith in private then there would be other Catholics wanting to do the same thing.. Mary would be the focal point and there defence when caught.. I.e “well the Lady Mary is allowed the free use of her conscious without fear of repression or persecution so why can’t I be allowed the same privilages?”
In short there would be anarchy within the realm and could well end up in a civil war over religion.
I think he was determined to make her submit to his will but he neither had the power (being as the regency council ruled more or less in his name anyway) or the health to do it. I also feel that the regency council had some affection for Mary as many of them had been at court when she was the beloved child of a Golden Sod and Good Queen Katherine, so perhaps they didn’t come down on her as hard as they could. If Edward had lived just that little bit longer, and took control of the whole governance of the realm himself, I think Mary would have suffered a great deal more than she had done in Edward’s minority rule. If push came to shove I rather think she would be given a straight choice by Edward submit or die.
Would she have chosen to be a martyr for her faith? To be honest I don’t think she would. She believed that God was preserving her for great things, and that all her trials and tribulations were God’s way of tempering her to carry out her cause. I.e to return England to the Catholic faith.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 1, 2014
5:56 pm
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LadyPrincess
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I agree with you. I hope my post didn’t imply that I thought that Edward could persuade Mary to become a protestant! If so, please know that I would never think that Mary would change religions.

What I meant was that I think Edward thought he had the ability to persuade Mary.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 1, 2014
7:50 pm
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Boleyn
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Yeah I understood the meaning Lady, and to be honest he probably did have those thoughts. He knew that he was expected to fill some very big shoes and knew that the people were expecting great things of him. A role that he may have actually manged to complete if he had been just that little bit older, and lived longer when he came to the throne.. I actually feel quite sorry for Edward, because he never really got the freedom and carefree childhood he should have had. As soon as he was old enough to walk and talk he was in the schoolroom. What fun he did have was probably very carefully planned right down to the last detail..
(The suggestion of a simple game of tiddly winks, would probably have to go through parliament first and be ratified by the king for it to even taken place, 3 months in advance. and even then the tiddly winks would have to be closely inspected to see they were safe to use, and possibly disinfected and wrapped in cotton wool just to be on the safe side. When the afternoon came for the game to take place the guards would have to present, and maybe even tiddle for Edward.)

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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