Edward VI | Historical Debates | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Edward VI
May 5, 2014
3:54 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I was looking something up this morning about Edward VI and came across this in Chris Skidmore’s book. An Italian physician and astrologer, Hieronymous Cardano, met with Edward in October 1552. He describes him, “he was rather of a bad habit of body, than a sufferer from fixed diseases. He had a somewhat projecting shoulder-blade; but such defects do not amount to deformity.” pg 240
Not if you are a Tudor, anyway.
The Imperial Ambassador, Scheyfve, believed that his condition at the time he was ill was due to a physical defect since his right shoulder was lower than his left. “He suffers a good deal when the fever is upon him, especially from a difficulty in drawing his breath, which is due to the compression of the organs on the right side.” “Some make light of the imperfection, saying that the depression in the right shoulder is hereditary in the house of Seymour, and the late Duke of Somerset had his good share of it amongst the rest. No good will he ever do with the lance. I opine that this is a visitation and a sign from God.” pg 244-45
Fancy that. A non-deformity for Edward, but a deformity for Richard.

May 5, 2014
8:36 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If my lousy memory serves, Sharon I believe the same thing was said of Elizabeth, that one of her shoulders appeared to be higher than the other.
I think it was possibly the Spanish Ambassador who said it too. You know how the swings and roundabout of court gossip blacken first one name and then another.. Bear in mind that although England was considered a Protestant country for the most part Fat Arse still followed the Catholic doctorine and beliefs. it changed of course when E6 came to the throne, into something radically different from what his father believed, so of course the haters of change from what faith or beliefs Fat arse followed would bound to try and make out that E6 was deformed or mentality unstable or some other hogwash and of course Mary too would have rumours about her having a deformity etc bandied about. The same hogwash came out yet again in Mary reign when she wanted to drag England back to Rome and the England of her youth, so of course it was Elizabeth who bore the brunt of the rumours of deformity. I’m not too sure but I think Philip or one of his buddies said that he could bear to be around Mary because she smelled of rotten flesh and had sypthlitic crusts around her nose and mouth.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 8, 2014
1:21 am
Avatar
Barnettbuff
Murray, Kentucky USA
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 88
Member Since:
October 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

“….Mary because she smelled of rotten flesh and had sypthlitic crusts around her nose and mouth.” Lorna, HOW ROMANTIC! Smile

May 8, 2014
6:43 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

;)
I think another horrible thing said about Elizabeth was by the Duke on Anjou or Orleans? He said that Elizabeth “was sour faced old woman with a bad leg.” the bag leg bit was in reference to an ulcer she alledgely had on one of her legs.
Larry, Lard arse was a very Romantic man you know when he was in the right mood and as long as the lady was downwind from so she couldn’t smell his stink. He was as romantic as an exocet missile and about as deadly as one too….LOL;)

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 11, 2014
2:56 pm
Avatar
Olga
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 766
Member Since:
October 28, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well Richard’s scoliosis wasn’t really commented on in his lifetime. I think there was an earlier chronicler, Tudor era, that referred to him as a “crookback” before More, but it was More who made it popular – or More’s nephew. Considering More turned on Henry VII the minute he died and wrote that sappy coronation poem for Henry VIII where he went on about what a tyrant Henry VII was you wonder what he might have come up with for Edward had he lived in Edward’s reign, considering Edward probably had scoliosis. I’m not picking on More by the way – well just a little. Laugh
I was interested in Leanda de Lisle’s comment that the scoliosis may have been hereditary, as Mary Grey suffered from kyphosis, which was definitely commented on.

May 11, 2014
5:38 pm
Avatar
Barnettbuff
Murray, Kentucky USA
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 88
Member Since:
October 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

;)
I think another horrible thing said about Elizabeth was by the Duke on Anjou or Orleans? He said that Elizabeth “was sour faced old woman with a bad leg.” the bag leg bit was in reference to an ulcer she alledgely had on one of her legs.
Larry, Lard arse was a very Romantic man you know when he was in the right mood and as long as the lady was downwind from so she couldn’t smell his stink. He was as romantic as an exocet missile and about as deadly as one too….LOL;)

Lorna, do you think that the pampering and cajoling H7 gave to H8 in his early years helped to spoil the lad to the extent that he (H8) carried those feeling of superiority and ‘God-given’ appointment on into his adult life to such an extent, that he could never get over those feelings? It seems that in his early years he was too protected and seemed mostly to ‘get his own way’ in most everything. His rotten personality was not for lack of an education, and he seemed to be able to understand most of his ‘royal’ governmental duties quite well, but in his personal life, (love life in particular) he seems to have had all sorts of problems. ……just my thoughts……

May 12, 2014
12:47 pm
Avatar
Olga
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 766
Member Since:
October 28, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Actually it is pretty much the opposite. Arthur was the golden child and there are hints Henry VII and junior did not get along. Rather than being spoiled, he was largely overshadowed by his siblings (a crown for everyone but the youngest!) and after Arthur died he was over-protected in a way that alienated him from other boys his own age. Not being allowed to joust etc. I think this had an impact in the regard that Henry VIII did not want to be told what to do anymore rather than a man used to getting his own way.

May 12, 2014
4:31 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Very true Olga. Before Arthur’s death Junior was seen as pretty much insignificant, yeah he was the spare heir, but very few spares ever became King. I rather think that Junior respected his father and his brother, but there was no love lost between them.
Certainly H7 limited Junior’s friends and curtailed many of the things Junior like to do. Jousting was out that was big no no. but H7 understood Junior’s need for the thrill of the chase so to speak and allowed Junior to participate in Quintaine (riding at the ring) instead, and altogether very tame version of jousting.
Junior must have felt like a caged animal, and he probably resented H7 and saw his death as a great relief, for now he could go free and do exactly what he wanted, when he wanted and with whom ever he chose to do it with and there was no one to stop him.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 12, 2014
7:14 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

According to Thomas Penn, Henry was taught all the arts of being a military leader. He did learn to joust and his father encouraged it. There was a strong sense of Arthurian and Chivalric beliefs in both men. Of course, Henry had to prove to all that he could shoot farther and joust better than any one on the field.
It was Henry VII who did not joust. Apparently he had poor eyesight, but he did not deny his son the opportunity to learn. Someone said of him not participating in jousting, “if you can’t see, you can’t joust.”
We know Henry VIII jousted. He was in many tournaments as king, and he was very good. With his physique at the time, he was a considerable force on the field and much admired for his skills. He couldn’t have just picked up the skill after his father died.
However, I do think Henry felt ‘caged’. He was with his father quite a bit, and we know he wasn’t all that thrilled with his father’s beliefs. He probably felt like they were old fashioned and by the time he was 17/18, he had his own ideas of how the realm should be run. By the time his dad died, he felt he was completely ready to be his own man, and it was time for him to be in control.
Did I just stick up for Henry? I must be getting old.
Olga,
Scoliosis runs in my family, and one of them had kyphosis, so, personally, I think Leanda de Lisle has something there. Although the doctors differ in their opinions.

May 12, 2014
10:37 pm
Avatar
Barnettbuff
Murray, Kentucky USA
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 88
Member Since:
October 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sharon, I just finished “Winter King” by Thomas Penn, so I guess I put too much stock into some of what he wrote about H7 and H8’s relationship. Perhaps Penn had too little info to back up what he believed about some of that relationship.

May 13, 2014
5:02 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Larry, I enjoyed The Winter King. I thought it was excellent.
There was dissension between the two Henrys. The old and the new. When it came to the jousts, Henry VII permitted them. He did not like jousting himself, and he especially did not like the new crowd’s attitude. His idea of a good joust didn’t include causing serious damage. Henry’s group, the group he trained with, played hardball. Henry VII’s crowd were actually afraid to joust against the younger men. So, yes that would have caused tension between the two of them.

When Henry was allowed to participate in his first joust it was in the running of the rings. It was said that people were amazed at his accuracy. Henry executed it brilliantly. (Boleyn, that’s for you.) This would make Henry VIII want to participate in an actual joust to show off those skills, and Dad would not allow it.

During a practice joust Henry broke one of his friends arms. Henry was learning to be very aggressive. Many of the councilors saw an obsessive side to Henry. That obsessiveness is what carried over into his adulthood. When he saw something, or someone that he wanted, he was obsessed with getting it. I think that did come from being under Dad’s thumb and not being able to do what he wanted to do.

May 13, 2014
7:37 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Face ache, became obsessed in his later life with hawking, a sport (for want of a better word) which held no attraction for him in his youth. I believe he tried to encourage Edward in it too.
It could possibly be that face ache had a lot of pent up agression to do with his father’s restraints on him. To not be able to do the things he wanted to must have seen like the old red rag to a bull. The more his father told him no the more he wanted to do it.. Typical kid really I suppose.
Then of course when his father died he was finally free to do all the things he wanted to do and to hell with the consequences. In some ways I can understand why H Senior put restrictions on Junior sporting activities, but at the same time it was a bad thing to do too, because if Junior had gone out and got a few bloody noses etc, he perhaps wouldn’t have run riot so much when H Senior died. I really do feel that his marriage to K.O.A was partly to do with the fact his father had told him that he shouldn’t marry her, and he married her anyway to 1 stick 2 fingers up at his father, and possibly his grandmother as well and 2 to show off to his freinds that he was old enough to choose his own wife and 3 he wanted to be seen as the Golden Sod I God, on a snow white horse rescuing the damsel in distress.

I think it was partly his devil may care tempestous nature that caused him so many problems he acted rashly and when things went tits up it was always someone elses fault.
His first jousting acciden came about because he was trying to prove that he was the best of the best etc. He was simply a very bad loser in games of chance, be that jousting or tennis or whatever sport he was competing in. It would have been good if he had lost a few times and perhaps got some good hiding on his backside when he was kid, instead of being pampered to and excuses found to why he behaved like he did etc.
His freinds would have done him more good if he had lost once in a while instead of letting him win all the time.

Mind I suppose we should excuse face ache’s behaviour really, It wasn’t really his fault. You see he had a terrible childhood, well he was a test tube baby.. Yeah honestly he was.. so of course all the other kids used to extract the urine out of him.. Can’t have been very easy for him to know that all his freinds knew that his father was a onanist.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 14, 2014
2:02 am
Avatar
Barnettbuff
Murray, Kentucky USA
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 88
Member Since:
October 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Damn Lorna, I must be getting dementia, I had to “Google” COITUS INTERRUPTUS to find your “onanist”! Nice job pulling THAT one otta the hat! Surprised

May 14, 2014
2:55 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks for edumacting another colonist Boleyn…Wink

It's always bunnies.

May 14, 2014
3:55 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
May 14, 2014
6:20 pm
Avatar
Barnettbuff
Murray, Kentucky USA
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 88
Member Since:
October 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anyanka said

Thanks for edumacting another colonist Boleyn…Wink

“Edumacate; An uneducated way people, including Redneck’s, Hill-Billy’s and Feral people use in place of the word Education to sound smarter than they may be.” From the Urban Dictionary.

Well, I’ve been called both “Redneck and Hillbilly”; so I guess if the shoe fits……….. Wink
Being born and reared in Kentucky, guess those terms pretty well describe me!!!

May 14, 2014
6:25 pm
Avatar
Barnettbuff
Murray, Kentucky USA
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 88
Member Since:
October 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Lorna ——–H E L P !!! —–get me outta this mess! Please.

May 17, 2014
1:58 pm
Avatar
Olga
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 766
Member Since:
October 28, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Is Kentucky where the Dukes of Hazard lived? Laugh

Actually Sharon I have yet to read Winter King. He made some dumb remark about Shakespeare not writing a play on Henry VII because he was too onerous or something and I thought it was going to be another biased boring “miserly Henry” bio. I’ll get around to it.

May 18, 2014
7:01 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Olga,
Well, I’m glad I read the book before hearing that remark. It’s not at all biased against Henry. In fact, I thought it was quite the opposite. I came away liking Henry. I don’t think he was as miserly as people think.
Larry, are you out there. What did you think of the book?

May 18, 2014
8:36 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don’t think H7 was a miserly King certainly history has seemed to recorded him as such. The wars of the Roses had all but destroyed England moneywise, the treasury was all but dry, the bankers (for want of a better word) were scraping the bottom of a well scraped money barrel.
So from that point of view H7 was keen to get money flowing into England etc.. If the country was skint, how could he possibly expect Spain, France and all the other known european countries, to actually take the Tudor reign seriously.
The quick fix solution at first was to tax his nobels and get those who were fighting against him at Bosworth to cough up the cash to save their necks.. This money H7 would invest and keep his fingers, toes and eyes crossed to hope that his investment would bear fruit. I think he was a firm but fair ruler, which has of course been interpreted as being misery and tight fisted. Most people home and abroad probably felt that the tudor dynasty was just a simple flash in the pan.
I should imagine that William (the Bastard) the Conqueror faced the same sort of opinion, when he defeated Harold at Hastings in 1066. “Oh it will never last the Normans are just a flash in the pan, the people of Britain won’t tolerate him and his kind for long, we don’t like foriegn invaders” sort of thing.
H7 had some preety big shoes to fill and had a lot to prove too. It wasn’t enough that he won Bosworth he had to prove that he was good enough for the job which he had stepped into. A tall order for an unknown Welsh Milksop as Richard called Henry.
Marrying EOY was a good move. I think he did genuinely love her and although he appeared to be quite cold to some people I believe. His treatment of COA certainly shows he was capable of being a cold hearted man, and I actually wonder what made he turn against her when he had fought so hard for her to marry Arthur in the first place. Is it possible that from what I can gather H7 wasn’t really too happy about her marrying Henry in the first place, after Isabella’s death, she became a little less of a good bet for marriage to Henry. Weknow Henry Junior repudiated his marriage contract at one point. But I’m wondering if H7 treatment of her was 1 down to grief because less then a year after Arthur had died EOY died and he perhaps blamed her KOA in some way.. 2 If he made her feel worthless and unwanted she would just give up any hope of marriage with Junior and go home. To meat least the black spot in H7 reign was his treatment of COA, it was unexcusable in my opinion. so minus a few hundred brownie points for H7 there.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 214

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2337

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 933

DuchessofBrittany: 846

Mya Elise: 781

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 427592

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1712

Posts: 23076

Newest Members:

DennisDorie, vitushatault, oghmaniusVom, Urocchxae, Puimignog, Emma3456

Administrators: Claire: 959