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Edward VI
May 19, 2014
1:57 am
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Olga
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Boleyn said
His treatment of COA certainly shows he was capable of being a cold hearted man, and I actually wonder what made he turn against her when he had fought so hard for her to marry Arthur in the first place. Is it possible that from what I can gather H7 wasn’t really too happy about her marrying Henry in the first place, after Isabella’s death, she became a little less of a good bet for marriage to Henry. Weknow Henry Junior repudiated his marriage contract at one point. But I’m wondering if H7 treatment of her was 1 down to grief because less then a year after Arthur had died EOY died and he perhaps blamed her KOA in some way.. 2 If he made her feel worthless and unwanted she would just give up any hope of marriage with Junior and go home. To meat least the black spot in H7 reign was his treatment of COA, it was unexcusable in my opinion. so minus a few hundred brownie points for H7 there.

Much of his treatment of Katherine had to do with the fact that Ferdinand refused to pay her dowry, and she did lose much of her political worth after Isabella died and Castille passed to Juana. In fact he treated her very well in the beginning and gave her a large allowance. If not for Ferdinand’s consistent refusal to pay her dowry Katherine’s life would have been much easier, she became a pawn in their political struggle. I am also of the opinion that Henry disliked Ferdinand.

When we look at the way Henry VII treated his own daughters, mother and wife as opposed to Ferdinand’s treatment of his daughters, Henry comes off far better. Henry arranged good marriages for his daughters and considered his mother’s and wife’s opinions that Margaret could not go to Scotland until they were comfortable with it. Ferdinand abandoned Katherine in a foreign country, refused to pay her dowry so she could live comfortably and without fear of persecution, and locked up Juana to steal her inheritance. And let’s be realistic, there is no way Henry would have allowed Katherine to starve or be going about in actual rags.

May 19, 2014
3:58 am
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Anyanka
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Not to mention thet Ferdinand re-married with the express desire to dis-inherit Juana from the Aragon throne and prevent it falling into the hands of the Habsburgs.

It's always bunnies.

June 18, 2014
2:56 pm
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Boleyn
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I wonder if H7 had a plan in his mind of marrying his youngest daughter Mary to Ferdinand? That way he could kind of control (loosely worded) Spain as well. With K.O.A married to Henry Junior, and Mary married or at least betrothed to Ferdinand, he would have a foothold into Spain.
After all if you think about it both K.O.A and Henry Tulip shared a common ancestor i.e John of Gaunt.
John of Gaunt’s second wife was Constance of Castille, and John did try to make a play for the Castillian throne, during his marriage to her, when that failed, he settled for second best of marrying his daughter Catherine, (by Constance) into Castille instead.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 5, 2014
1:09 pm
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Olga
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No Bo Ferdinand was not worth as much as Isabella, that’s why Katherine lost much of her worth after Isabella died, because the title was supposed to pass to Juana. As you might recall Henry VII considered marrying Juana himself.

July 5, 2014
1:38 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Olga. If I have remembered it rightly, H7 had tried to arrange a double wedding I.e Juana would marry H7 and Juana’s daughter would marry Henry junior.
I totally agree about Ferdinand when Isabella died he lost one hell of a lot of prestige in the world of monarchs. I don’t think Aragon as a country was of much value as the territories of Castille were, I suppose I could say that Aragon was like a pimple on the backside of Castille’s bull.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 5, 2014
4:19 pm
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Olga
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If I recall correctly Juana was one of the first women he considered marrying after Elizabeth died. He did have Henry Jr revoke his vows to Katherine at one point but I imagine it was an ‘in case something better comes along’ scenario. Matusiak noted that all of Henry VII’s children had a crown secured for their future except for Henry Jr, which is interesting. So his daughters were already in place for an alliance with Scotland and France. I often wonder what marriage Henry would have made if Arthur had not died.
I am guessing but I assume that the Spanish alliance was important enough for Henry VII to not be fully intent on breaking it. It came at a great cost for him after all, Isabella and Ferdinand had demanded the execution of Warbeck and Warwick, and the execution of Warwick not only compromised Henry personally but it broke the trust he had in his subjects. There was a lot of anger over it. It was a terrible situation actually.
I have not read much about the ‘Catholic Monarchs’ but I am not fond of them from what I do know. We know Katherine had a bit of a warrior streak but she did have a gentle heart. Although Bacon is not exactly reliable he says Katherine says her marriage was made in blood.
Ah I am going off topic again

July 5, 2014
4:37 pm
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Boleyn
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Katherine’s role model was her mother, understandable when you see exactly what Isabella actually acheived. Ferdinand had been given his crown more or less on a plate, Isabella had had to fight for hers. I wouldn’t say she single handedly defeated the moorish invaders and drove them from Spain, but she refused to give in to them, and believed whole heartedly that God was firmly on her side. During the Autumn of the siege of Alhambra, Ferdinand had wanted to give up and go home and then try again in the Spring to conquer Alhambra, Isabella however resolutely stood her ground and continued to lay siege to Alhambra during the Winter months, which eventually did topple to the combined might and power of the Spanish Monarchs army.
In a way Bacon is right K.O.A and Henry Junior’s marriage was one made in blood their common ancestor being John of Gaunt, who at one time called himself the titular King of Castille, through his wife, Constance.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 25, 2014
7:53 pm
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Boleyn said
His treatment of COA certainly shows he was capable of being a cold hearted man, and I actually wonder what made he turn against her when he had fought so hard for her to marry Arthur in the first place.

Hi everyone! Not sure if you all remember me – but I used to chat on here but stopped due to school work!

But to add on to your post, Boleyn, I think Henry VII did like COA (he had no reason not to) but I think he felt as though it was her parents responsibility now that she wasn’t married to Arthur to provide for her.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

July 26, 2014
12:02 pm
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Boleyn
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When H7 agreed to the betrothal of K.O.A and Henry junior, K.O.A had in affect become his daughter (loosely worded) therefore as such he was legally obligated to provide for her. I agree that at one point H7 bullied Henry Junior to use the get of of marriage free card to marry him elsewhere, but I don’t think that was very successful. It was all down to money in the end to be honest, H7 said Ferdinand owed him money, and Ferdinand believed he had given H7 enough. H7 wasnt going to pay to look after Ferdinand’s daughter and Ferdinand didn’t think he would have too considering that Junior and K.O.A were betrothed. K.O.A as the accepted Princess of Wales, fell under England’s and H7 obligation to look after. Besides which Ferdinand had enough problems of his own to deal with. After the death of Isabella, he was desperate to keep his hands of the Castillian throne, so was having a fair few battles with his (mad??) daughter Juana to stop her from taking the Castillian throne.
I sometimes think that H7 made things difficult purely for the sheer hell of it. That he somehow got a perverted (loosely worded) sence of satifaction out of causing trouble and hardship, for not just Ferdinand but for the Spanards in general.
Was the Pope actually consulted about Junior’s objection to being betrothed to K.O.A? I know that there were 2 dispenasations given, basically saying the marriage could go ahead whether or not K.O.A was a virgin. So again basically speaking the marriage between them was a done deal no matter what was said or done.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 26, 2014
4:50 pm
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Perhaps Henry VII didn’t appreciate having to cow tow to Ferdinand? I know he was anxious to legitimize the Tudor claim to the throne and that included making peace with other kingdoms.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

July 26, 2014
10:12 pm
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Boleyn
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It could well be that Lady Princess. I think that Ferdinand and H7 were 2 of a kind to be honest, both stubborn and bull headed, never giving each other an inch or a mile and never allowing one of them to get the upper hand on the other. The only way H7 thought he could perhaps spite (loosely worded) Ferdinand was to get at his daughter I.e Katherine. and thinking perhaps that Ferdinand being the good father he was etc, would come to the rescue of his poor bullied daughter. Truth is that when Isabella died he washed his hands of all his children. Juana was a major headache to be got rid of, because by rights she was Queen of Castille, but Ferdinand didn’t want to lose Castille, so he invented a story that she was a looney tune and not fit to rule etc… Juana I believe had a form of mental illness possibly clinical depression, (I believe it was either Sharon or Anyanka who voiced the same opinion) but she wasn’t barking mad and didn’t deserve to be locked up. He had no son which meant that he had no heir for his throne either. If he had brought Katherine home to Aragon, she would be just one more headache and grey hair for him to worry about, Maria her Elder sister came before her in line to the throne granted, Maria died in 1517, just a year after Ferdinand, so again yet another wrinkle, grey hair and headache for Ferdinand. Concievedly Katherine could have inherited Castille from Maria in 1517. Juana was considered insane so therefore not fit to rule.
There is another possibility here as well. “la Beltraneja”. Before Isabella became Queen of Castille, she had a niece called Juana, she was the supposed daughter of Isabella’s brother. However it appears that “la Beltraneja was in fact the bastard daughter of Joan of Portugal Isabella’s brother’s (Henry) wife and a member of of the palace guard called Beltrán de la Cueva y Alfonso de Mercado, 1st Duke of Alburquerque. If it was true or not we will never know. But Henry believed it was his child and named her his heir. She was actually queen for about 3 or 4 years before Isabella took the throne from her and gave her an ultimatum. Marry my son, or go into a convent. Juana chose the convent, but she was still alive when Ferdinand died, in fact he actually proposed marriage to her just so he could keep the castillian throne, as there were still many who believed that la Beltraneja was in fact the legal heir anyway. She died in 1530 and right up to the end she signed her letters as “La Reina.”

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 27, 2014
4:22 pm
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Great post Boleyn. I always wondered how Catherine and the rest of her siblings were pretty normal (as far as one can get in the 15th and 16th century that is) yet Juana was the mad one. I never cared for Ferdinand, so while I knew that he wanted Castile all for himself, it didn’t dawn on me that he would lie about his own daughter’s sanity.

As for the main topic, I think that Edward would have gone on to be a rather frigid king. Whose main purpose would have been spreading Protestantism. He would have had a pretty boring reign, I think.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

July 28, 2014
12:52 pm
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Boleyn
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I don’t think Edward would be frigid as such, but I think he would have strict rules of courtly decorum, and everything would be conducted in a very matter of fact business type way. As for love as young as he was he was probably aware of the hassles that falling in love actually caused. I don’t know if he knew what happened to K.H but he must have seen how his father towards her before and after her downfall. I rather think people make the mistake of excusing Edward as being too young to understand such things etc. But I feel that we are using 21st century logic to this view when in fact children in the 15/16 century were expected to be mini adults, almost from the time they could walk. Their role model being their father or mother, and therefore to earn their approval they must talk, act and think as their parents did. Edward being the only heir granted perhaps had more of a burden to carry than his father did at his age, but even so even H8 upbringing was not all the carefree behaviour of those outside royalty. Again there was the strict code of courtly conduct H8 would have had had to adhere too. Such as he couldn’t run screaming down the galleries of Richmond Palace or Windsor chasing Charles Brandon with a toy sword, whilst there were visiting royalty from abroad to see H7 on some diplomatic mission. It wouldn’t have looked good for the court or for England as the King was supposed to have been the role model everyone high or low to follow. That not to say Edward didn’t have fun, but it wouldn’t be what we would call fun.
I think Edward’s reign would actually be very interesting, in the sence of how he would deal with a problem that cropped up. Would he be like his father and just go and lop some heads off, or would he try the diplomatic approach and solve the problem without the need for bloodshed.
He had the mistakes of his father’s reign to guide him towards a solution of the best course of action to take. I rather think he would be a firm but fair ruler to be honest. As for marriage I think whomever he married again it would be on a strict no nonsence business like arrangement. He would marry her on the strict understanding that she gave him sons. He may grow to love her, but not in the true sence of the word.

I don’t think Ferdinand lied exactly about Juana’s “madness” as I said I certainly feel she had mental health issues, but not in the extreme as Ferdinand described them as. Juana’s behaviour after Charles’s death was certainly bizarre, but then what can you expect she was in grief, she adored Charles and his death was a great shock to her, so naturally her behaviour would be odd. Grief does funny things to people.
My mother for instance, had a cerebral stroke after the death of my stepfather, she was fine up until the day of the funeral, and then collapsed at the graveside. She’s still with us, but everyday that goes by I lose a little more of what my mum was.
It very likely that Juana had some sort of a mental breakdown, but that doesn’t mean she beyond all reason, and Ferdinand’s treatment of her was bang out of order. But then he was desperate man and desperate men do desperate things. Aragon wasn’t really much to write home about monetary wise, and I don’t think it was rich in assets either, so for Ferdinand to still be considered one of the big hitters in the Europeon courts he needed Castille to give him street cred. It probably would have helped as well in getting him a rich princess from another provence. Thing is locking Juana up didn’t help him, did it, because his 2nd wife wasn’t a princess or any woman of much value? No matter what Ferdinand said about Juana people still viewed Juana as their queen, or regent in favour of her son.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 28, 2014
8:12 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

It probably would have helped as well in getting him a rich princess from another provence. Thing is locking Juana up didn’t help him, did it, because his 2nd wife wasn’t a princess or any woman of much value? .

Depends how you want to value some-one. Germaine de Foix was the neice of King Louis,her mother was the king’s sister making her a member of the French royal family. The daughter of the Viscount of Narbonne with a claim on the throne of Navarre and Ferdinnd’s own great-nice as her mother was Eleanor of Aragon, Ferninand’s older half-sister.

Louis also ceeded his claim to the thrones of Naple sand Jerusalem to her as part of her dowery, conditional on a male heir being born. So as brides go, she had a good regal pedigree and a few minor titles as well.

It's always bunnies.

July 28, 2014
10:06 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Anyanka I wondered why Ferdinand ended up with Naples under his belt, as I knew that H8 was none too chuffed about it when he found out, hence the reason to why he married his sister to the old spider King Louis. Ferdinand was a wily old git really to be honest. He knew that by marrying Germaine it would have P***ed H8 off, especially since he had promised H8 support to make his (H8) claim for the French throne. I guess it was just another way of Ferdinand of telling his children by Isabella to go get stuffed. He’d put a stop to Juana taking the Castillian throne. Maria I don’t think was that interested in it, so again next n line to it was C.O.A herself, so by buying French support via marriage he was saying Castille is mine hands off. H8 couldn’t hope to raise as many troops as both Louis and Ferdinand could and those 2 armies combined would certainly desimate the English Army. In any case half of H8 drinking buddies from the last time he went on a pub crawl around France had died of the flux or been killed in battle and I doubt the people of England would want to fight for a throne in another country (Castille) one which would mean very little to them if they did beat Ferdinand in a war.
I always thought that Germaine was Ferdinand’s mistress. He had a fair few after all.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 28, 2014
11:51 pm
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I agree that Edward would have been very strict in terms of courtly decorum. I also believe that he would not have relished in the plays, pageants and dances that Henry loved. He was very smart so I think he would have preferred spending time learning and reading. I think he would have married Jane Grey and they would have been quite content but agree that whomever he married it would be a loveless marriage.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

July 29, 2014
11:27 am
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Boleyn
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I think his heart belonged to Jane Grey, but in the marriage stakes he would marry a foreign princess, purely because England needed the money, a foreign match would also help boost trade etc. Again purely on a business type arrangement. I also feel that he wouldn’t have married until he was perhaps in his late 20’s preferring instead to get the country into some sort of order. H8 left it in a bit of a mess, religiously and monetary wise so I don’t think Edward would have even thought about marriage until he had sorted out the mess. The country running on a even keel would be of better advantage to him and the country, for a marriage deal than one in a mess.
Would be interesting to who he would actually consider for a wife though.
Courtly entertainments, I think would revolve around biblical stories, and would have deep moral and spiritual symbolism in them.
Edward perhaps would have delighted in such entertainment but others would perhaps find it very mind numbingly dull and boring, and forever be wondering when the whole thing was ever going to end so they could go home.
Edward I think would be a very saintly and prude sort of king, (not in H6’s terms) but would run the country in a no nonsence, God fearing, business like way, but strangely I think his approach would adhere him to his people, and he would have been deeply mourned by his family and his people if had lived to a ripe old age.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 30, 2014
12:26 am
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LadyPrincess
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I think that Henry Grey would have persuaded Edward to marry Jane. The fact that Henry did not care that Mary was Queen and still rose a rebellion speaks volumes.

What do you all think?

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

July 30, 2014
4:58 am
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Anyanka
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Henry Gey was a very small part of the Regency team and by all accounts wasn’t a very strret wise man.THomas Seymour was the power pushing Jane towards Edward.

However Edward knew his duty with regards to begetting an heir as he was the undoubted legal king of England as his father was a widower when his parents were married and there was no hint of anything untoward about his mother..

Englad needed to marry into an allience with either France or the Habsburgs to provide a balancing force within Europe much as his father and grand-father had tried to do. Marrying his 1st cousin once removed wouldn’t bring Edward any advantages abroad. Nor had she ability to bring large sums of money or further titles into his hands.

Had he been alive and unmarried/widowed in 1561 (and aged 24) then he would have amade an ideal husband for another first cousin once removed, Mary of Scotland. That would hae been a much more lucrative pairing for both of them ..

It's always bunnies.

July 30, 2014
5:14 am
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Anyanka
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LadyPrincess said

I agree that Edward would have been very strict in terms of courtly decorum. I also believe that he would not have relished in the plays, pageants and dances that Henry loved. He was very smart so I think he would have preferred spending time learning and reading. I think he would have married Jane Grey and they would have been quite content but agree that whomever he married it would be a loveless marriage.

The marriage of royalty or even any high status family had nothing to do with modern notions of love. Marriage then love/duty was the order of the day.
Some couples found love, some found companionship, others merely dutiful obidence and some hatred all round with no way out..It’s hahrd to look back at some-one and try to imagine what kind of marriage they would hvae had.

While Edward ws brought up by Edward Seymour to be a rather dour young man, by the time John Dudley was in charge, he had loosened the reins and allowed Edward to indulge in jousting and sword play. It’s possible that under Dudley, he may have become less puritanical and more fun-loving while keeping his high standard of learning and political leanings.

I really can’t see Edward marrying Jane..She wasn’t able to bring any material benefits to him or England. His preferd choice was Eliabeeth of France but had Mary of Scotland not been bethrothed to Francais , then she’s have been the ideal mate for him.

It's always bunnies.

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