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Gone With The Wind.
May 3, 2011
5:10 am
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MegC
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I have tried to write this post a couple of times, but something keeps happening and I get side-tracked and the post gets cancelled and put on hold.  So, third time's a charm! 

So I finished up Part II and moved on to Part III a couple of days ago.  I don't normally pay that much attention to the beginning of Part III because it details Sherman's advance into Georgia through Chattanooga and General Johnston's retreat.  Honestly, until now I've found it pretty boring, but now that I LIVE in Georgia, two shakes from where all this is set, I'm intentionally paying more attention.

Anyway, it occurred to me as I was reading about Johnston's retreat, the man is marching straight down interstate 75!  I know this because that's the way I go when we visit family in Knoxville.  So I know all these little towns that MM's writing about–Dalton is the carpet capital of Georgia (all these little flooring wholesalers located there), Adairsville, Cartersville, Resaca…I know these towns!  My husband and I chuckled at this line, though:

“From Big Shanty, the weary sleepless lines retreated down the road to Kennesaw Mountain, near the little town of Marietta, and here they spread their lines in a ten-mile curve.” Ok, in the 1860's, Marietta was a little community outside Atlanta, today Marietta is just one of Atlanta's suburbs, and we chuckled to hear it referred to as a “little town”.  It also sits just north of Atlanta's Perimeter (interstate 285) which encircles Atlanta and sits, roughly, ten miles from downtown Atlanta.  Jonesboro, the county seat of Clayton County where Tara is situated, is on the south side of Atlanta and would probably be considered a southern suburb of Atlanta.

I just find it interesting that, in 1863, twenty miles seemed SOOOOOOO far away and required a train ride, and, now, Marietta and Jonesboro and Kennesaw are practically part of Atlanta and no one thinks a thing in the world about driving on down to Atlanta from one of the suburbs.

Then it starts talking about how the Home Guard is being deployed to Kennesaw Mountain, including the very old and the very young (Uncle Henry and Grandpa Merriweather).  Then Scarlett finds out that John Wilkes is going with them, and that just breaks my heart.  MM is essentially detailing the slow, sad decline of, not just a cause, but a way of life.  And no matter what kind of way of life is going, it's always sad to see the demise of that way of life.  But it makes me sad that these old men and boys, who had NO business fighting in any wars, were marching out to defend a dying cause.  And I think that MM's portrayal of this is probably pretty accurate.

And, as always, MM explains beautifully why Gerald is not out there marching off to defend Atlanta with Mr. Wilkes (Ellen told him he could go as long as he could jump the fence, he tried three times and was unsuccessful each time).  So many authors would never have even dealt with the issue–they would have just left Gerald's absence unexplained.  But her explanation seems completely plausible with what we know about these characters.  

Anyway, off to make breakfast for Thing 1.  Hopefully I'll get to read more tonight!

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 3, 2011
6:04 pm
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TinaII2None
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MegC said:

I have tried to write this post a couple of times, but something keeps happening and I get side-tracked and the post gets cancelled and put on hold.  So, third time's a charm! 

So I finished up Part II and moved on to Part III a couple of days ago.  I don't normally pay that much attention to the beginning of Part III because it details Sherman's advance into Georgia through Chattanooga and General Johnston's retreat.  Honestly, until now I've found it pretty boring, but now that I LIVE in Georgia, two shakes from where all this is set, I'm intentionally paying more attention.

Anyway, it occurred to me as I was reading about Johnston's retreat, the man is marching straight down interstate 75!  I know this because that's the way I go when we visit family in Knoxville.  So I know all these little towns that MM's writing about–Dalton is the carpet capital of Georgia (all these little flooring wholesalers located there), Adairsville, Cartersville, Resaca…I know these towns!  My husband and I chuckled at this line, though:

“From Big Shanty, the weary sleepless lines retreated down the road to Kennesaw Mountain, near the little town of Marietta, and here they spread their lines in a ten-mile curve.” Ok, in the 1860's, Marietta was a little community outside Atlanta, today Marietta is just one of Atlanta's suburbs, and we chuckled to hear it referred to as a “little town”.  It also sits just north of Atlanta's Perimeter (interstate 285) which encircles Atlanta and sits, roughly, ten miles from downtown Atlanta.  Jonesboro, the county seat of Clayton County where Tara is situated, is on the south side of Atlanta and would probably be considered a southern suburb of Atlanta.

I just find it interesting that, in 1863, twenty miles seemed SOOOOOOO far away and required a train ride, and, now, Marietta and Jonesboro and Kennesaw are practically part of Atlanta and no one thinks a thing in the world about driving on down to Atlanta from one of the suburbs.

Then it starts talking about how the Home Guard is being deployed to Kennesaw Mountain, including the very old and the very young (Uncle Henry and Grandpa Merriweather).  Then Scarlett finds out that John Wilkes is going with them, and that just breaks my heart.  MM is essentially detailing the slow, sad decline of, not just a cause, but a way of life.  And no matter what kind of way of life is going, it's always sad to see the demise of that way of life.  But it makes me sad that these old men and boys, who had NO business fighting in any wars, were marching out to defend a dying cause.  And I think that MM's portrayal of this is probably pretty accurate.

And, as always, MM explains beautifully why Gerald is not out there marching off to defend Atlanta with Mr. Wilkes (Ellen told him he could go as long as he could jump the fence, he tried three times and was unsuccessful each time).  So many authors would never have even dealt with the issue–they would have just left Gerald's absence unexplained.  But her explanation seems completely plausible with what we know about these characters.  

Anyway, off to make breakfast for Thing 1.  Hopefully I'll get to read more tonight!


Hi Meg and yes, I understand about getting sidetracked. I was off 3 days this past weekend and still don't feel as though I'm caught up. I think we got another inch or two of rain yesterday, and at this rate, the horses will be swimming around the track at Churchill Downs come Saturday (Derby Day)! But I did start part three and I know the part you're talking about. I've been reading it closely as MM builds the situation — the Atlanta natives feeling they are invincible to invasion due to Johnston…and then realizing the Yankees are moving closer. Although I would be a supporter of the Union, it is still a frightening prospect, knowing that the enemy is at your gates, and yet you continue the brave face. The dinner at Aunt Pitty's — when the young man who I believe is missing an arm but is returning to the front makes the situation even more desperate. You know the Army is starting to ask for all their men. (A little off-track, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that as desperation really set in near the end of the War, Lee was even asking for the slaves to volunteer in exchange for their freedom). And here is the South calling up young boys, old men; those already injured are now recalled. And was it Ashley who told Scarlett that seemingly one Confederate would fall and there was no one to take his place, but the Yankees just kept coming and coming by the hundreds.

That dinner alone told a great deal. Rhett again is being a cynic — even when the one-armed soldier knows that what Rhett says is accurate; Dr. Meade is still full of bravado; the women are nervous and skittish. Scarlett sings a verse of My Old Kentucky Home that we never sing at the Derby: Just a few more days for to tote the weary load….It is very sad watching these lives collapse bit by bit (and as Aunt Pitty declares in the movie — “It's the end of the world.” Yes I guess it would be).

Meg — I so enjoyed reading about what you know in 2011 Georgia as it compares to the Georgia of 1864. And you were so right about 20 miles seeming to be such a great distance back then. You're right! Seems I remember my grandmother — who grew up in “the country” in Kentucky — talking about catching a train to Louisville or over to Southern Indiana after she married her first husband. We're talking 50 miles give or take, but for her, it would be like one of us traveling to London or Paris!  

I know in the movie, Big Sam tells Scarlett that the Army wouldn't let Gerald go due to his bum knee (or leg), but there was nothing about Ellen and the fence jumping. (Sam says that Ellen sent I'm guessing the bulk of the male slaves to go dig the ditches for the soldiers).

Anyway, it's wonderful reading how MM is setting all of this up. I'm afraid I've only gotten through one part of War and Peace (I'd like to finish it later this year), so it's only the early years of the war between France and Russia and the invasion is about 7 or 8 years later. But like MM, I love how Tolstoy sets up this various characters and their lives and things seem to go on normally. There's war talk of course (when I stopped reading, the cynical Prince Andrei was about to engage in some major battle), but life goes on. Natasha celebrates her name-day in one scene. Her cousin Sonya is hopeless in love. Pierre becomes his father's heir and then marries the amoral Helene…and will be sorry for it. Natasha's family is constantly hovering on the edge of bankruptcy but tries to keep up the appearance of wealthy aristocracy. Now and then, the way the GWTW characters rage about Lincoln or State's Rights, there's talk of “the antichrist” (Napoleon) and what he's up to and how he is destroying everything. And like those in GWTW, those years — and the 1812 invasion — change everything.

I know they're two different writers (I understand that Tolstoy, in one of the epilogues, tends to become very philosophical, while MM just “sticks to the facts” LOL), but it's pretty amazing that two people, roughly 50 to 75 years apart, so vividly captured the monumental events which shook their nations to a core. And created a pretty vivid bunch of characters too — although I think MM may have beaten Tolstoy just a teeny bit LOL Oh and then burned down two of their major cities on top of it! LOL

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 4, 2011
12:21 pm
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MegC
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And now it's time for Name that Quote!  Five quotes below from minor characters in the book taken from my copy of The Official Gone with the Wind  Companion.  Person who gets the most correct gets named quotemaster–at least until the next round of Name that Quote.

I have tried to put them in chronological order in case someone is brave enough to attempt to actually go flipping through the book to find the answer.

1.  “You been mighty good to me, Miss Scarlett, and me a stranger and nothin' to you at all.  I've caused you a heap of trouble and worry and if it's all the same to you, I'm goin' to stay here and help you all with the work 'till I've paid you back some for your trouble.”

2.  “She can get mad quicker and stay mad longer than any woman I ever saw!”

3.  “I never liked you much till now, Scarlett.  You were always hard as a hickory nut, even as a child, and I don't like hard females, barring myself.”

4.  “They put me in jail for killin' and they let me out with a gun in my hand and a free pardon to do more killin'.”

5.  “Yo' wais' jes' done got bigger, Miss Scarlett, an' dar ain' nuthin' ter do 'bout it.”

 

ETA:  While flipping through my copy of The Official Gone with the Wind  Companion, I made an interesting discovery.  Anyone know who played Stuart Tarleton in the movie?  No?  I'll tell you.  George Reeves.  Now, if you, like me, are thinking, “That name rings a bell” then I will tell you that it should because George Reeves, George Reeves of Stuart Tarleton obscurity, was THE George Reeves.  As in, the original Superman.  Who knew!?

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 6, 2011
8:32 am
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So, Melanie has had her baby, Atlanta has been burned, Scarlett and the crew are back at Tara, the slaves are gone, most of the houses in the county are burned (apparently even the Slatterys which just goes to show that the Yankees didn't care–rich or poor they all burned), most of the slaves are gone, Ellen is dead, Gerald has lost his mind, and the Yankees have returned again.

That's everything I've read the past couple of days.

But the part that I wanted to mention that sticks in my mind the most at the moment is the scene that occurred between Scarlett and Rhett the night Scarlett received the letter from Gerald saying that she was, under no circumstances, to attempt a trip to Tara because of Carreen and Suellen's illness. 

I was struck by the parallels between this scene and one which we find in the life of our own dear heroine, Anne Boleyn.  A man, a wealthy man, a somewhat powerful wealthy man (we aren't really told how powerful Rhett is, but we know he has enough connections to discover the whereabouts of Ashley Wilkes after he goes missing) appears in her life and asks her to be his mistress.  And their responses are the same–a most definitive No!.

I just thought it was an interesting similarity.  Clearly both women had different reasons for their responses, but I guess my question is why did Rhett proposition Scarlett like that?  Why not just ask her to marry him?  Unlike Henry, Rhett wasn't married and hadn't had a string of extramarital affairs.  

Thoughts?  I have a few, but I'm curious to see what others think before I start spouting off my own!

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 6, 2011
9:26 am
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MegC said:

And now it's time for Name that Quote!  Five quotes below from minor characters in the book taken from my copy of The Official Gone with the Wind  Companion.  Person who gets the most correct gets named quotemaster–at least until the next round of Name that Quote.

I have tried to put them in chronological order in case someone is brave enough to attempt to actually go flipping through the book to find the answer.

1.  “You been mighty good to me, Miss Scarlett, and me a stranger and nothin' to you at all.  I've caused you a heap of trouble and worry and if it's all the same to you, I'm goin' to stay here and help you all with the work 'till I've paid you back some for your trouble.”

2.  “She can get mad quicker and stay mad longer than any woman I ever saw!”

3.  “I never liked you much till now, Scarlett.  You were always hard as a hickory nut, even as a child, and I don't like hard females, barring myself.”

4.  “They put me in jail for killin' and they let me out with a gun in my hand and a free pardon to do more killin'.”

5.  “Yo' wais' jes' done got bigger, Miss Scarlett, an' dar ain' nuthin' ter do 'bout it.”

 

ETA:  While flipping through my copy of The Official Gone with the Wind  Companion, I made an interesting discovery.  Anyone know who played Stuart Tarleton in the movie?  No?  I'll tell you.  George Reeves.  Now, if you, like me, are thinking, “That name rings a bell” then I will tell you that it should because George Reeves, George Reeves of Stuart Tarleton obscurity, was THE George Reeves.  As in, the original Superman.  Who knew!?


Poor tragic George Reeves. Both my grandmother and my mother liked him…and I thonestly think they thought more of hi as Stuart Tarleton than they did of him as Superman!

Okay, haven't been to bed yet so the brain's mushy, but I'm going to try my hand at the quote contest. But first…SPOILER SPACE LOL

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1) Shoot! I can't think of his name but is he the one that Suellen ended up marrying?

2) Sounds like poor Frank Kennedy

3) Mrs. Tarleton

4) I'll guess one of the Fontaines — I know at least one survived the war.

5) The wonderful Mammy

Didn't use the book so I may be way off but we'll see LOL 

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 6, 2011
10:21 am
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TinaII2None
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MegC said:

So, Melanie has had her baby, Atlanta has been burned, Scarlett and the crew are back at Tara, the slaves are gone, most of the houses in the county are burned (apparently even the Slatterys which just goes to show that the Yankees didn't care–rich or poor they all burned), most of the slaves are gone, Ellen is dead, Gerald has lost his mind, and the Yankees have returned again.

That's everything I've read the past couple of days.

But the part that I wanted to mention that sticks in my mind the most at the moment is the scene that occurred between Scarlett and Rhett the night Scarlett received the letter from Gerald saying that she was, under no circumstances, to attempt a trip to Tara because of Carreen and Suellen's illness. 

I was struck by the parallels between this scene and one which we find in the life of our own dear heroine, Anne Boleyn.  A man, a wealthy man, a somewhat powerful wealthy man (we aren't really told how powerful Rhett is, but we know he has enough connections to discover the whereabouts of Ashley Wilkes after he goes missing) appears in her life and asks her to be his mistress.  And their responses are the same–a most definitive No!.

I just thought it was an interesting similarity.  Clearly both women had different reasons for their responses, but I guess my question is why did Rhett proposition Scarlett like that?  Why not just ask her to marry him?  Unlike Henry, Rhett wasn't married and hadn't had a string of extramarital affairs.  

Thoughts?  I have a few, but I'm curious to see what others think before I start spouting off my own!


Meg — you're moving as quickly as I. In two days' time Melanie's had her baby, Atlanta's been burned, Scarlett's been abandonned by Rhett, made it home, performed her “AS GOD IS MY WITNESS…” declaration, scrimped and burrowed and picked cotton and everything else…and the Yankees have been at Tara twice (well, 3 times if you count the Yankee deserter). AND I was reminded of characters I'd completely forgotten such as the old Fontaine woman who drew Scarlett aside to get at the truth of what was happening at Tara.

All I can say is despite being a  supporter of the Union, restoring the nation and abolishing slavery, I was absolutely sickened by the treatment of the soldiers towards the citizens. I realize that Sherman was bringing total war to the South; I realize it was an early version of the Scorched Earth policy; I understand that the point was to bring the South to its' knees and destroy the infrastructure and the morale as well as the Army. But it just gnawed at my soul. At least the Yankee commander didn't burn Tara after using it as a headquarters. But the other troop's “visit” — the one where they even struck at the Tarleton property, the Fontaines, the Calverts and all (and they nearly stole little Wade's sword — the family sword and then tried to set Tara on fire and DID set on fire what little cotton had been picked)…that was even more sickening. I even found myself imagining the girl or woman who will become the recipient of Ellen's thimble; would she be shocked to hear of how her sweetheart, brother, whatever obtained it? Would she wonder about the former owner? Oh well — I digress.

 It was heartbreaking and disgusting that women, children, the elderly and poor uneducated slaves would just be left to starve or die of sickness — it is no wonder there remains a hatred among some, even in the modern South. (I remember in a history class that one of the numerous causes of the rise of Hitler and Nazism was due to the treatment of the Germans at the end of World War I, when reparations were demanded, etc. and the German people suffered. It became one of the many things Hitler could harp on as he rose to power. But I digress again…Laugh).

 

Man oh man — I love your question! I didn't know…strike that…I didn't remember Rhett asking Scarlett (I nearly typed Anne LOL) about becoming his mistress, so it was as much a surprise to me as it was to our heroine! LOL I know Rhett claims he's not the marrying type, and perhaps he thinks Scarlett — wild and willful child that she is — is more suited to the role of mistress, especially since there were times when the mistress seemingly had more benefits than the wife! (I'm remembering the movie Dangerous Beauty in which the Venetian mistress was better educated and even knew politics, whereas the wives were, well, wives. You think of Madame de Pompadour. And even in the fictional Gigi, the young heroine is being trained to become a high class courtesan because she will have much greater benefits than a wife at the time).

 

My sleep deprived brain can't recall Rhett's response when she refused…but I've always wondered what went through Henry's mind the second Anne said “No.” You'd think most men would tell the girl to go to Hell for not realizing what an opportunity she just passed up on. But Rhett still plays a tarnished knight to the rescue (to a point LOL) and Henry refuses to take no for an answer…and hearing that Anne will not sleep with him unless she is his lawful wife and Queen just spurs him on.

I also know one other thing that made me think of Anne and also Elizabeth as I've been reading these scenes in GWTW. Scarlett — during that escape from Atlanta — was depending on two men for help: Rhett Butler, who does get her somewhat out of Atlanta and then abandons her, calling her selfish for not thinking of the Cause as he goes off to join the Army, and saying that she's not scared and Heaven help the Yankee that comes upon her. Like Scarlett, I'd like to have seen a cannonball blow him to smithereens for leaving the lot of them that way. (What a time for him to get a conscious! LOL). She even scolds herself later for not bringing provisions from Aunt Pitty's — because she was depending on Rhett to take care of things. Then she makes it back to Tara, and the second man also fails her — her beloved father Gerald, who is teetering between reality and a quiet insanity. So she is abandonned again. I'm not even counting Ashley since he's been out of the picture for a couple of hundred pages LOL The only man left right then is Pork, the “simple-minded” slave because that's how his masters raised him…but even Pork ends up being of great help in locating food — legally or illegally. Wink

Scarlett learns to stand on her own. She learns that she doesn't have to be dependent on a man to survive. Okay so she may still be secretly in love with Dumb-Dumb but she becomes independent, stronger, harder (which isn't necessarily a good thing) and is determined that no one and nothing is going to lick her in the end.

Despite being intelligent and strong – from what we can tell – Anne puts herself under the wing of the most powerful protector a woman like her could have had…the King of England. She may have done it at first because she had no choice, although I think she grew to love Henry (and as someone, I think Claire, said in today's TABF main page, felt she was destined for these things as Esther in the Bible once had been). Then he abandonned her without further thought and she died under a suspicion of adultery, treason and incest, her demise orchestrated by powerful men (one likely being the man she had trusted and loved). I guess better Rhett's way LOL

Elizabeth is another who is determined that she's not going to be licked and she, too, is going to survive whatever is thrown at her. She has an on again-off again relationship with her father. The man who was likely her first love nearly got her brought up on treason charges and may have abused her. Men like Wyatt put her in the middle of rebellions. Men like the Spanish ambassador want her dead. Philip tries to use her as a pawn and then later wants to marry her. And all the men who council her want her married so a man can ease her burden — because we all know women can't actually rule a kingdom. Laugh Well, all but one who councils her — and we're not always sure of his motives either. But like Scarlett she learns to survive by her wits, by her strength, by a spirit she may not have always known she had, and without having a man telling her this and that. Scarlett declares herself an O'Hara and knows she will take care of herself, her folks, the land without turning to the charity of her distant relations. Elizabeth is not just a Tudor, but a Plantagenet, a Boleyn, a Howard — one hell of a bloodline. And she is her father's daughter SmileSmile She's her mother's daughter too.

And boy I need to be in bed. LOL I have to work tonight, it's Derby weekend but my brain is just thinking as fast as a thoroughbred leaving the starting gate!!

So what do YOU all think?

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 6, 2011
10:33 am
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One last thing before I turn in LOL

Is it just me, or is little Wade one of the most pathetic children you've ever seen in a book? I'm guessing he's about two-ish (those terrible twos) but I just don't know how to take him. Scarlett hasn't been an ideal mother, that's for sure. Half the time she doesn't remember he exists. Then she looks down and he's clinging to her skirts. At Tara, he's almost as afraid of Scarlett as he is of the Yankees (an event which obviously has marred him for life, and if it was 2011, Wade Hamilton would be on a psychiatrist's couch — or Dr. Phil) — she screams at him more, slaps him. He was so used to being spoiled and pampered (Hmm…kind of like his mother LOL) and, well, I guess being a child — and all that is gone. But there are other times when I can see why he annoys Scarlett. But unlike Scarlett, I like kids. Never had any, but I do like them. I'm just wondering though if Wade's not a little — well, not quite right, if that makes sense. Is he being a normal two/three-year-old or is there something seriously wrong with him?

I still am glad the screenwriters killed off Scarlett's first two kids though. As my mother used to say, they were way too much like their fathers — and that wasn't a good thing LOL

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 6, 2011
12:32 pm
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MegC
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One last thing before I turn in LOL

Is it just me, or is little Wade one of the most pathetic children you've ever seen in a book? I'm guessing he's about two-ish (those terrible twos) but I just don't know how to take him. Scarlett hasn't been an ideal mother, that's for sure. Half the time she doesn't remember he exists. Then she looks down and he's clinging to her skirts. At Tara, he's almost as afraid of Scarlett as he is of the Yankees (an event which obviously has marred him for life, and if it was 2011, Wade Hamilton would be on a psychiatrist's couch — or Dr. Phil) — she screams at him more, slaps him. He was so used to being spoiled and pampered (Hmm…kind of like his mother LOL) and, well, I guess being a child — and all that is gone. But there are other times when I can see why he annoys Scarlett. But unlike Scarlett, I like kids. Never had any, but I do like them. I'm just wondering though if Wade's not a little — well, not quite right, if that makes sense. Is he being a normal two/three-year-old or is there something seriously wrong with him?

I still am glad the screenwriters killed off Scarlett's first two kids though. As my mother used to say, they were way too much like their fathers — and that wasn't a good thing LOL

You know, I had wondered that, too, briefly.  Then I mentally started calculating and I realized that we have a pretty good timeline of Wade's life.  Scarlett got married at the end of April which means that she had to get pregnant in May because Charlie was gone within a month of their marriage.  That was April 1861, which means she got pregnant in May 1861 and makes Wade a February 1862 baby.  At this point in the story, it is winter 1864 so Wade is a little over 2 1/2 years old and this makes him slighly younger than my son who is 3 (who is also a February baby).  Given what he's been through and his age, I think he's probably pretty normal.  In fact, once I realized his age, it just kind of broke my heart because it would be like Andrew being terrified constantly–of not just the Yankees, but also of me.  Unlike me, though, Scarlett finds this fact more annoying than heartbreaking.  What's amazing, though, is despite Wade's fear of Scarlett, he still loves and clings to her because she's his mother.  We don't know much about Wade in general so the only thing I find annoying about him is his insistence on referring to himself in the third-person which my son didn't really do.  Otherwise, yes, I think pathetic is the best adjective for him.  

ETA:  Whoever made up the phrase “terrible twos” had clearly never had a three year old–because three is MUCH harder than 2 ever was!


"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 6, 2011
2:02 pm
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@ Tina:  I hadn't remembered that scene in the book, either, until I read it.  I suppose I understand why it was stricken from the movie.

If nothing else, it further complicates the character of Rhett Butler.  It is one of the primary differences between Scarlett and Rhett:  everything about Scarlett is very cut-and-dry.  She says what she thinks, she means what she says…she wears her feelings out on her sleeve. Rhett, however…one never really knows where one stands with Rhett and I think he likes it that way.

First he tells Scarlett he doesn't love her then he tells her plainly on the road to Jonesboro that he does love her.  We all know he loves her, it's just a matter of his reasons for concealing and revealing it when he does.  I think he tells her then because he is acutely aware of the fact that he may be killed and he can't leave her without telling her the truth–though how one can leave a woman alone and in such danger whom one has just professed to love I don't know.  Or perhaps it just means that Rhett has more confidence in Scarlett than she does herself.

As for his reason behind the proposition:  Rhett, I truly believe, loves Scarlett more than anyone else realizes.  Loves her so much that it hurts.  He even says at one point, “God help the man who ever really  loves you.”  I think, especially as Scarlett gets older, she views love as a weakness and she uses it as a weapon to manipulate.  Look at poor Frank Kennedy.  Look at Rhett later in their marriage.  To keep her as his mistress was a way for Rhett to possess Scarlett without putting himself in a position of really getting hurt.  It was the 19th century version of friends with benefits.  There didn't seem to be an expectation of love or devotion between Rhett and a mistress–and he didn't seem to expect it from Scarlett.  We know Rhett is capable of love–he certainly loves Bonnie.  The only person who really knows how much Rhett loves Scarlett is Melanie.

If I'm not mistaken, Scarlett's response to being asked is to say, “What would I get out of that except a passle of brats?” and Rhett's response was to laugh at her.

Anne's response to being propositioned was to say no, but, unlike Scarlett, I think it was because she truly felt it was beneath her.  One has to wonder, if birth control had been available, would Scarlett have reconsidered her response.  She would have clearly seen that a mistress of Rhett Butler would be well cared-for, and, for Scarlett, that would have been all that mattered.  However, she's concerned that her first response to his question is not to be offended as a true lady should.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 6, 2011
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MegC said:

You know, I had wondered that, too, briefly.  Then I mentally started calculating and I realized that we have a pretty good timeline of Wade's life.  Scarlett got married at the end of April which means that she had to get pregnant in May because Charlie was gone within a month of their marriage.  That was April 1861, which means she got pregnant in May 1861 and makes Wade a February 1862 baby.  At this point in the story, it is winter 1864 so Wade is a little over 2 1/2 years old and this makes him slighly younger than my son who is 3 (who is also a February baby).  Given what he's been through and his age, I think he's probably pretty normal.  In fact, once I realized his age, it just kind of broke my heart because it would be like Andrew being terrified constantly–of not just the Yankees, but also of me.  Unlike me, though, Scarlett finds this fact more annoying than heartbreaking.  What's amazing, though, is despite Wade's fear of Scarlett, he still loves and clings to her because she's his mother.  We don't know much about Wade in general so the only thing I find annoying about him is his insistence on referring to himself in the third-person which my son didn't really do.  Otherwise, yes, I think pathetic is the best adjective for him.  

ETA:  Whoever made up the phrase “terrible twos” had clearly never had a three year old–because three is MUCH harder than 2 ever was!


Well, for 2-1/2 years old I can understand his behavior, and it's even worse with the traumatic experiences he's had at such a young age. Like I said, he'll be lucky he grows up to be normal (and honestly, I remember NOTHING about him when he's older, say during Scarlett's marriage to Rhett). But you're right – he does love her. He was clinging to her even while she was holding Beau when the Yankees returned to Tara, and he showed some gumption when he screamed that the Yankees had his sword. But his third person speak — that may be what was bothering me…and annoying me! My mother raised four of us and I was around my niece and nephew for most of their lives, and trust me, NONE OF US talked about ourselves in third person. That's just very odd, to me anyway.

I'm with you — I' have NO idea where the “terrible twos” phrase came from!

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 6, 2011
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MegC said:

@ Tina:  I hadn't remembered that scene in the book, either, until I read it.  I suppose I understand why it was stricken from the movie.

If nothing else, it further complicates the character of Rhett Butler.  It is one of the primary differences between Scarlett and Rhett:  everything about Scarlett is very cut-and-dry.  She says what she thinks, she means what she says…she wears her feelings out on her sleeve. Rhett, however…one never really knows where one stands with Rhett and I think he likes it that way.

First he tells Scarlett he doesn't love her then he tells her plainly on the road to Jonesboro that he does love her.  We all know he loves her, it's just a matter of his reasons for concealing and revealing it when he does.  I think he tells her then because he is acutely aware of the fact that he may be killed and he can't leave her without telling her the truth–though how one can leave a woman alone and in such danger whom one has just professed to love I don't know.  Or perhaps it just means that Rhett has more confidence in Scarlett than she does herself.

As for his reason behind the proposition:  Rhett, I truly believe, loves Scarlett more than anyone else realizes.  Loves her so much that it hurts.  He even says at one point, “God help the man who ever really  loves you.”  I think, especially as Scarlett gets older, she views love as a weakness and she uses it as a weapon to manipulate.  Look at poor Frank Kennedy.  Look at Rhett later in their marriage.  To keep her as his mistress was a way for Rhett to possess Scarlett without putting himself in a position of really getting hurt.  It was the 19th century version of friends with benefits.  There didn't seem to be an expectation of love or devotion between Rhett and a mistress–and he didn't seem to expect it from Scarlett.  We know Rhett is capable of love–he certainly loves Bonnie.  The only person who really knows how much Rhett loves Scarlett is Melanie.

If I'm not mistaken, Scarlett's response to being asked is to say, “What would I get out of that except a passle of brats?” and Rhett's response was to laugh at her.

Anne's response to being propositioned was to say no, but, unlike Scarlett, I think it was because she truly felt it was beneath her.  One has to wonder, if birth control had been available, would Scarlett have reconsidered her response.  She would have clearly seen that a mistress of Rhett Butler would be well cared-for, and, for Scarlett, that would have been all that mattered.  However, she's concerned that her first response to his question is not to be offended as a true lady should.


I loved your reasoning, Meg. What's so funny was that I thought exactly what you mentioned when Rhett made the proposal — I'll bet if there had been birth control and she had been willing to put aside the gossip and all, she may have gone along with it. At least she could do for her family what was needed during the War. Interesting to speculate.
Yes, I'm sure Rhett had complete confidence that Scarlett could survive anything the Yankees and life threw at her, but I guess I'm still old-fashioned and believe that there are things men should and shouldn't do. And leaving a healthy woman, a woman who just delivered a baby, a newborn, a 2-1/2-year-old and a screeching slave in the middle of a retreat…well, I know this sounds very Ashley-like, but it's just not very chivalrous. But had that incident not happened, well, Scarlett would not have become what she did. (It's no wonder Rhett said that he wanted to pamper her and spoil her as she had been before the War hardened her).

You are right. Rhett is capable of love. He does love Scarlett — yes, he does Heaven help him LOL; he adored and loved Bonnie. The incredible guilt he feels later in the book when his actions lead to Scarlett's miscarriage — he wants her to call for him, to say she wants him, forgives him. Not sure how the scene goes in the book, but in the movie, Melanie knows how much Rhett loves Scarlett, and he says something to the effect that Scarlett doesn't love him and Melanie would be shocked if she knew who Scarlett DID love, but Melanie will hear nothing of it. (Which always made me wonder and it was something I discussed with my grandmoher, my mother, my sisters — did Melly ever suspect or was it that she would not believe that those she loved could be hurtful). And in his own way, he loves Melanie but it is in the way of respecting her as he does. (I understand that in the sequel Scarlett, Rhett marries a Melanie wannabe).

But back to the whole mistress idea. I had never considered it that way, but since the issue is never really examined in the movie (hey, it WAS post-Hayes code), it was an episode I'd forgotten as far as the book, but I love your friends with benefits. Rhett doesn't get hurt. Scarlett doesn't either. They can both pretend at not really being in love with one another. Not sure where the story would have gone from there…. Oh and remember, Scarlett did tell him — when she came to the jail, hoping to get money — she came fairly close (out of desperation) to agreeing to becoming his mistress. But of course he couldn't get to his money at the time and there was a good chance he might have been hung. (What did he joke? Maybe I'll leave you in my will? To which Scarlett replied that she was just sorry the money wouldn't come in enough time to pay the taxes on Tara LOL).

I'm so glad we're reading this — and I'm so glad it's bringing back so many strong memories. I haven't read a book this quickly in ages but it's as though I can't wait to find out what's on the next page when I turn it! Even if I do know waht's coming!!    

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 8, 2011
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So….here's where we are:

Frank Kennedy and commisary troup have been through and Frank asked Suellen for her hand in marriage.

Scarlett has started having her nightmare.

The War ended.

Cathleen Calvert rode over to Tara to tell them she was marrying Hilton.  I don't know that I ever really grasped before WHY Cathleen was marrying Hilton, so I was a little surprised when I put two and two together.  The second Mrs. Calvert was leaving with her children to go north and Cade was dying and Cathleen wanted Cade to die in peace.  I think it just shows that things have gotten to the point where you have to do what has to be done.  

There's a description of Tara after the Yankees leave for a second time that talks about how desolate it was as Scarlett tried to figure out how she was going to feed everybody through the winter, and the description of the buzzards circling over Tara.  Let me just tell you, I have never lived in a place with more vultures!  I mean, we had both black-headed and turkey vultures in Tennesse, but I swear never in the numbers that I see around here!  I have driven down the road and literally seen ten vultures all huddled together on the side of the road picking at something.  And they circle over my subdivision all day so I can completely imagine hoards of vultures circling over Tara.

Let's see…

The soldiers returning from the war have started stopping at Tara.  Uncle Peter has come to bring Ashley's letter, Will Benteen has come to stay for awhile, and Ashley has returned.  And the Yankees are about to raise the taxes on Tara.

Here is a thought I had while reading tonight, I ran across this sentence:  “Scarlett knew that Ellen would have fainted at the thought of a daughter of hers marrying such a man, but now Scarlett by necessity forced too far away from Ellen's teachings to let that worry her.”  And I thought, I will agree that things have changed.  That the stringent class restrictions that had existed prior to the war had been loosened, that the dividing line between master and slave had blurred significantly, but I feel like there are many things that Scarlett uses the war as an excuse for her discarding–emotions and ideas she previously found little use for except to maintain a certain image she has now entirely discarded:  sympathy and empathy, sentimentality.  Those ideals that keep us human–that even Grandma Fontaine seemed to understand.  Frankly, Melanie and Carreen and Cathleen many others (including the slaves) have managed, I think, to hold on to their classiness, but Scarlett has just abandonned all scruples and is sort of descending into amorality.  I don't really begrudge anything that she has done up to this point, but she's so bitter about everything–not wanting to feed the returning soldiers or refusing to feel sympathy for the Tarletons after she discovers that they purchased two headstones to memorialize their boys.  Or being pissed at Carreen because she still mourns the death of Brent Tarleton and won't just move on.  There's not much about Scarlett that is endearing, but this is one aspect of her character that has always gotten under my craw.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 9, 2011
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TinaII2None said:

MegC said:

And now it's time for Name that Quote!  Five quotes below from minor characters in the book taken from my copy of The Official Gone with the Wind  Companion.  Person who gets the most correct gets named quotemaster–at least until the next round of Name that Quote.

I have tried to put them in chronological order in case someone is brave enough to attempt to actually go flipping through the book to find the answer.

1.  “You been mighty good to me, Miss Scarlett, and me a stranger and nothin' to you at all.  I've caused you a heap of trouble and worry and if it's all the same to you, I'm goin' to stay here and help you all with the work 'till I've paid you back some for your trouble.”

2.  “She can get mad quicker and stay mad longer than any woman I ever saw!”

3.  “I never liked you much till now, Scarlett.  You were always hard as a hickory nut, even as a child, and I don't like hard females, barring myself.”

4.  “They put me in jail for killin' and they let me out with a gun in my hand and a free pardon to do more killin'.”

5.  “Yo' wais' jes' done got bigger, Miss Scarlett, an' dar ain' nuthin' ter do 'bout it.”

 

ETA:  While flipping through my copy of The Official Gone with the Wind  Companion, I made an interesting discovery.  Anyone know who played Stuart Tarleton in the movie?  No?  I'll tell you.  George Reeves.  Now, if you, like me, are thinking, “That name rings a bell” then I will tell you that it should because George Reeves, George Reeves of Stuart Tarleton obscurity, was THE George Reeves.  As in, the original Superman.  Who knew!?


Poor tragic George Reeves. Both my grandmother and my mother liked him…and I thonestly think they thought more of hi as Stuart Tarleton than they did of him as Superman!
 

Okay, haven't been to bed yet so the brain's mushy, but I'm going to try my hand at the quote contest. But first…SPOILER SPACE LOL

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

1) Shoot! I can't think of his name but is he the one that Suellen ended up marrying?

2) Sounds like poor Frank Kennedy

3) Mrs. Tarleton

4) I'll guess one of the Fontaines — I know at least one survived the war.

5) The wonderful Mammy

Didn't use the book so I may be way off but we'll see LOL 


You were so close on so many of them!!

1.  Will Benteen–yep, the guy who winds up marrying Suellen.

2.  Poor Frank Kennedy

3.  Grandma Fontaine–I think at Gerald's funeral.  As I recall, Scarlett is VERY pregnant and isn't thinking of much except how miserable she is!

4.  Archie–the man Scarlett hires to drive her around.  Except her refuses to drive her to one of the mills because Johnny Gallagher uses convict labor to run the mill and Archie is, clearly, an ex-con.

5.  True, in the movie, Mammy said this quote.  However, in the book this is said by Lou.  I guess Mammy has her hands full taking care of three kids at this point (Wade, Ella, and Bonnie) and doesn't have time to help Scarlett get dressed.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 9, 2011
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Another thought I had last night while reading:

I wonder how many slaves chose to remain with their masters after the War ended simply because it was all they had ever known?  Sort of like men who have been in prison for so long that they don't know what to do with themselves once they're released.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 9, 2011
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MegC said:

So….here's where we are:

Frank Kennedy and commisary troup have been through and Frank asked Suellen for her hand in marriage.

Scarlett has started having her nightmare.

The War ended.

Cathleen Calvert rode over to Tara to tell them she was marrying Hilton.  I don't know that I ever really grasped before WHY Cathleen was marrying Hilton, so I was a little surprised when I put two and two together.  The second Mrs. Calvert was leaving with her children to go north and Cade was dying and Cathleen wanted Cade to die in peace.  I think it just shows that things have gotten to the point where you have to do what has to be done.  

There's a description of Tara after the Yankees leave for a second time that talks about how desolate it was as Scarlett tried to figure out how she was going to feed everybody through the winter, and the description of the buzzards circling over Tara.  Let me just tell you, I have never lived in a place with more vultures!  I mean, we had both black-headed and turkey vultures in Tennesse, but I swear never in the numbers that I see around here!  I have driven down the road and literally seen ten vultures all huddled together on the side of the road picking at something.  And they circle over my subdivision all day so I can completely imagine hoards of vultures circling over Tara.

Let's see…

The soldiers returning from the war have started stopping at Tara.  Uncle Peter has come to bring Ashley's letter, Will Benteen has come to stay for awhile, and Ashley has returned.  And the Yankees are about to raise the taxes on Tara.

Here is a thought I had while reading tonight, I ran across this sentence:  “Scarlett knew that Ellen would have fainted at the thought of a daughter of hers marrying such a man, but now Scarlett by necessity forced too far away from Ellen's teachings to let that worry her.”  And I thought, I will agree that things have changed.  That the stringent class restrictions that had existed prior to the war had been loosened, that the dividing line between master and slave had blurred significantly, but I feel like there are many things that Scarlett uses the war as an excuse for her discarding–emotions and ideas she previously found little use for except to maintain a certain image she has now entirely discarded:  sympathy and empathy, sentimentality.  Those ideals that keep us human–that even Grandma Fontaine seemed to understand.  Frankly, Melanie and Carreen and Cathleen many others (including the slaves) have managed, I think, to hold on to their classiness, but Scarlett has just abandonned all scruples and is sort of descending into amorality.  I don't really begrudge anything that she has done up to this point, but she's so bitter about everything–not wanting to feed the returning soldiers or refusing to feel sympathy for the Tarletons after she discovers that they purchased two headstones to memorialize their boys.  Or being pissed at Carreen because she still mourns the death of Brent Tarleton and won't just move on.  There's not much about Scarlett that is endearing, but this is one aspect of her character that has always gotten under my craw.


I was off Sunday and Monday nights and I can't believe it's nearly time for me to return to work. Where does the time go? And you're a bit ahead of me in the book, but I immediately picked up on what you were talking about as far as Scarlett so let me touch on that a bit.

You know, there's a moment in her conversation with Grandma Fontaine where she feels the older woman doesn't understand what she's trying to tell her, but in actuality, the old woman does and it is what you said — to keep those things that continue to make us human even as we struggle against the odds. I understand Scarlett not wanting to look back because it hurts, but she throws it all away as you mentioned, well, everything except the ridiculous love she's had for Ashley since she was…fourteen I think? There's a line in the movie where Melanie says that their friends and family have starved and struggled to, but have maintained their dignity and all. I think Scarlett says that they're fools for being that way. So while Scarlett does obtain an independence and even a professional life that was likely unknown then (and for a Southern woman I doubt you saw it happen that often), she loses something too. Bitter! Boy you hit that nail on the head. I remember the scene in the movie about feeding the returning soldiers and how much she hated it…and then Melanie told her that she had just learned that Ashley had been in prison (a bit of a switch from the novel), and she imagined him heading South from the North and perhaps some kind Yankee woman sharing some food with him and all. It was only the thought of Ashley that gave Scarlett pause. (Typical LOL).

I haven't gotten to the scene yet in the book but I still remember it. After Gerald's killed, Scarlett gives Pork his watch,  even when Pork protests that she should keep it for the taxes. In the movie, Scarlett presses it into Pork's hand and tells him Pa would have wanted him to have it…and then she drifts into another room while talking to Mammy about getting the tax money. In the book, Scarlett also gives a reluctant Pork the watch — but then has the thought that she couldn't have gotten enough money for it anyway. (Which — in Vivian's hands — gave Scarlett a tiny bit of heart). Then when the family and servants are all excitedly gathered around for the creation of the infamous green gown, Scarlett (in the book) watches them and thinks how foolish they are in using the moment to returni to the past. She even begrudges them that — so I can see why she wouldn't have any sympathy for the Tarletons giving their 4 sons a memorial.

But I liked your insight on Scarlett. I still think it's funny that she looks down on those who think upon the past and she manages this total disconnect with it…but at the same time maintains her delusion of a life with Ashley, Ashley, Ashley. *gag* Guess she figured she'd drag the Long-Suffering Mr. Wilkes on into the late 1860's and then the 1870's with her, no matter how much he protested.

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 10, 2011
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You are exactly right, Tina, there is this strange disconnect.  It's not ok to dwell on the past, but she doesn't seem to realize that her obsessive love of Ashley is exactly that.

I watched the second part of the movie last night, and I realize there are parts of the book that are different, but it occurred to me that there are signs that Ashley isn't as into Scarlett as she is in him, but because of Ashley's typical indirectness (and contradictory actions versus words) and Scarlett's habit of basically tuning out whatever she doesn't want to hear, it's no wonder she doesn't realize it.  Ashley says to her, “Do you think I'd leave the baby and Melanie–the best wife a man could ever ask for?”.  Of course, then he turns around and kisses Scarlett!  Dumbass! I just think that at this point in the story, Scarlett is nothing more than a memory of better days for Ashley.  

I'm not too far ahead of you, Tina.  I've stalled out a bit this past weekend and I've just barely started the infamous kissing scene between Scarlett and Ashley in the fields.  Busy weekend coming up and I have to get the house in order–which is a process.  I'm using my SIL and BIL's visit as an excuse to get some stuff done.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

May 10, 2011
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MegC said:


You were so close on so many of them!!
1.  Will Benteen–yep, the guy who winds up marrying Suellen.

2.  Poor Frank Kennedy

3.  Grandma Fontaine–I think at Gerald's funeral.  As I recall, Scarlett is VERY pregnant and isn't thinking of much except how miserable she is!

4.  Archie–the man Scarlett hires to drive her around.  Except her refuses to drive her to one of the mills because Johnny Gallagher uses convict labor to run the mill and Archie is, clearly, an ex-con.

5.  True, in the movie, Mammy said this quote.  However, in the book this is said by Lou.  I guess Mammy has her hands full taking care of three kids at this point (Wade, Ella, and Bonnie) and doesn't have time to help Scarlett get dressed.


I was laughing at your third comment about Scarlett being pregnant and thinking only of how miserable she is. Figures! LOL

I'll say this — one of my problems is that the movie is so strong in my mind, I can't often recall who said what and in which format, book or movie. I'm glad I was able to come as close as I did.

I'm going to throw one out to all of you. I ran across this while doing some reading and was automatically struck by…Well, I'll let you all read it and see. Can't think of any prize 🙂 but will just be totally amazed that you got it. (No Internet research peeking now LOL). But read it and then answer:

1) Who said this?

2) Does it remind you of anyone or anything?

You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 10, 2011
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MegC said:

Another thought I had last night while reading:

I wonder how many slaves chose to remain with their masters after the War ended simply because it was all they had ever known?  Sort of like men who have been in prison for so long that they don't know what to do with themselves once they're released.


You know I've wondered that too. I don't know if there's a stat for it or not.

Errol Flynn, Ronald Reagan, Olivia DeHavilland and Raymond Massey did a movie called Santa Fe Trail although I always thought the movie had less to do with the Santa Fe Trail than it did Bloody Kansas and the years prior to the Civil War. The movie played hard and loose with the facts including having men that weren't in the same West Point class show up in the same West Point class! Flynn played Jeb Stuart; Reagan played Custer; lovely Olivia was their love interest and Raymond Massey was abolitionist John Brown. But history aside, there's one scene that made me wonder about what you mentioned, as well as driving me up the wall. The stereotypical slaves are told by Brown that they are now free. A few of them say something to the effect of “Well lawsa Massa. What's we gonna do now that's we free?” Brown tells them about free will and such and that they are no longer enslaved…but the whole thing falls apart because there's a big fight with the Army. Brown escapes and Flynn's Stuart is shot in the arm. A Mammy type works on the arm and Stuart tells her not to make the bandage so tight, to which she replies that she's bandaged up more white arms than he knows. Then the few blacks remaining say they are going to return to their masters because John Brown wasn't offering them much of anything.

So Meg, I don't know. Like I said, the scene drives me up the wall, but I still wonder how much historic truth was in it. I've read and heard of escaped slaves that wanted to return South during the War — only to rescue the relations they left behind, and I'm very sure many — like Mammy and Pork — were willing to remain behind because it WAS all they knew; or they had a loyalty to the family they had served.  

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 10, 2011
11:52 am
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TinaII2None
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MegC said:

You are exactly right, Tina, there is this strange disconnect.  It's not ok to dwell on the past, but she doesn't seem to realize that her obsessive love of Ashley is exactly that.

I watched the second part of the movie last night, and I realize there are parts of the book that are different, but it occurred to me that there are signs that Ashley isn't as into Scarlett as she is in him, but because of Ashley's typical indirectness (and contradictory actions versus words) and Scarlett's habit of basically tuning out whatever she doesn't want to hear, it's no wonder she doesn't realize it.  Ashley says to her, “Do you think I'd leave the baby and Melanie–the best wife a man could ever ask for?”.  Of course, then he turns around and kisses Scarlett!  Dumbass! I just think that at this point in the story, Scarlett is nothing more than a memory of better days for Ashley.  

I'm not too far ahead of you, Tina.  I've stalled out a bit this past weekend and I've just barely started the infamous kissing scene between Scarlett and Ashley in the fields.  Busy weekend coming up and I have to get the house in order–which is a process.  I'm using my SIL and BIL's visit as an excuse to get some stuff done.


I'm so glad that Leslie Howard had a chance to play a few stronger roles. I'd hate to go to my grave known only as the man who played The Long-Suffering Ashley Wilkes LOL (Okay, even if he IS).

You are so right about him telling Scarlett that and then praising Scarlett for all the wonderful things she is, in addition to kissing her like there's no tomorrow — while she's muttering “you love me, you do love me” — and then finally declaring that he can't do that to Melanie and the baby. *groan* I just wanted to drop kick him then and there.

I'm looking forward to reading the scene (at least I'm guessing it's in the book) that was cut from the movie, the scene it's said Vivian Leigh fought so hard to maintain: at the mill or the mill's offices, Ashley hints that sure Scarlett should wait in the wings cause Melanie might get pregnant and die…or just die. (Vivian wanted the scene left because it would show yet again that Ashley was giving Scarlett these clues that there might be a chance for them, instead of it just seeming as if Scarlett was only a cold, heartless, homewrecking ***ch). Boy you pegged it though — Scarlett IS nothing more than happy day memories for him. (In the movie he reminisces about that barbecue at Twelve Oaks with her surrounded by beaux).

To any of you that have read the book Scarlett or saw the miniseries (I only saw part one of the TV show and then gave it up): was Ashley the same or had some sense been knocked into him, especially since Scarlett has moved on to Operation: Get Rhett Back When I've Thought About It Tomorrow. (Seems like I remember Stephen Collins playing him in the series).

I put the book aside during my off days. Spent those resting, going to appointments and watching The King's Speech. (A movie I highly recommend — and so nice to see something about a king who was a lot more mild-mannered than Henry VIII).

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

May 11, 2011
8:44 am
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MegC
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TinaII2None said:

MegC said:


You were so close on so many of them!!

1.  Will Benteen–yep, the guy who winds up marrying Suellen.
 

2.  Poor Frank Kennedy

3.  Grandma Fontaine–I think at Gerald's funeral.  As I recall, Scarlett is VERY pregnant and isn't thinking of much except how miserable she is!

4.  Archie–the man Scarlett hires to drive her around.  Except her refuses to drive her to one of the mills because Johnny Gallagher uses convict labor to run the mill and Archie is, clearly, an ex-con.

5.  True, in the movie, Mammy said this quote.  However, in the book this is said by Lou.  I guess Mammy has her hands full taking care of three kids at this point (Wade, Ella, and Bonnie) and doesn't have time to help Scarlett get dressed.


I was laughing at your third comment about Scarlett being pregnant and thinking only of how miserable she is. Figures! LOL
 

I'll say this — one of my problems is that the movie is so strong in my mind, I can't often recall who said what and in which format, book or movie. I'm glad I was able to come as close as I did.

I'm going to throw one out to all of you. I ran across this while doing some reading and was automatically struck by…Well, I'll let you all read it and see. Can't think of any prize 🙂 but will just be totally amazed that you got it. (No Internet research peeking now LOL). But read it and then answer:

1) Who said this?

2) Does it remind you of anyone or anything?

You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.


The sentiments expressed could have been said by John Wilkes or Ashley or Rhett…all of whom said almost exactly that.  However, John Wilkes or Ashley would have said it more poetically and Rhett would never have used the word “folly” or the phrase “…can you make”.  Obviously it is spoken by someone from the North either pre-war or very early in the war.  So, my guesses are…

1. Abraham Lincoln (I don't think so, I think Lincoln tried very hard before the war started and immediately after the war started to keep from further distancing the southern states, and using the phrase, “You people of the South don't know what you are doing…” would only piss them off and make them more determined.)

2.  General Sherman (I don't know why, but I think it's a possibility).

3.  General Grant (if it was Grant, I will poop my pants because I have never heard good things about Grant)

4.  Queen Victoria (a shot in the dark but maybe?)

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

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