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Gone With The Wind.
April 14, 2011
8:55 am
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Anyanka
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Sophie1536 said:

Believe it or not I've NEVER seen this film or read the book. I know it's about the American Civil Warbut that's all, seeing as it's topic I feel I must be missing something good, lol!


Me neither until Monday. I'm now about 2/3 rds of the way through.I'm not sure yet, if I'll watch the movie at sometime.

It's always bunnies.

April 14, 2011
12:18 pm
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MegC
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GWTW is practically a rite of passage in the South!  Even though it ended well over a hundred years ago, feelings tend to still run deep about it in some places.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 14, 2011
3:48 pm
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Anyanka
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I was talking to my mother earlier and she was telling me about when GWTW first shown in British cinemas. With her mother, they queued for over an hour to get tickets and get in. After half an hour or so, the air-raid sirens went and they had to leave. By the time next payday came round  GWTW had gone…..DM never got her birthday treat that year.

It's always bunnies.

April 14, 2011
9:56 pm
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Bella44
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I've never read it either but I really should, it was my mum's favourite book and I've got her copy safely tucked away in the library so I should actually read it, shouldn't I?!

April 15, 2011
9:23 am
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MegC
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Anyanka said:

I was talking to my mother earlier and she was telling me about when GWTW first shown in British cinemas. With her mother, they queued for over an hour to get tickets and get in. After half an hour or so, the air-raid sirens went and they had to leave. By the time next payday came round  GWTW had gone…..DM never got her birthday treat that year.


That is just so sad!!  I'm guessing she did eventually get to see it, but still…what a crappy birthday present!!

In an unrelated note:  My uncles skipped my wedding to go be part of a Civil War re-enactment over in North Carolina instead.  My mom was really pissed!  I had all ready scheduled my wedding around University of Tennessee football, I wasn't going to schedule it around a Civil War re-enactment as well.  Guess that's what I get for getting married in October!  <<Sigh>> For some people the War has never really ended.  But I think one of my uncles is in the movie Gettysburg as an extra during one of the big battle scenes.  I asked him once how you knew you were supposed to be dead, and he said when you ran out of “bullets” (caps), you fell down and you were dead.  I mean, everyone knows how the battle ends anyway.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 15, 2011
2:22 pm
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Sophie1536
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MegC said:

GWTW is practically a rite of passage in the South!  Even though it ended well over a hundred years ago, feelings tend to still run deep about it in some places.


Wow, I had no idea that people still have feelings today about what happened in the Civil War, I realise it was a serious war like our very own English Civil War but to still have feelings now?!!!
Thanx for the insight into it and I will get round to reading GWTW someday.

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April 15, 2011
4:27 pm
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MegC
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South Carolina flies the Rebel (Confederate) flag over their state capitol building.  Fitting since S. Carolina was where the first battle of the Civil War was held, but don't think there haven't been numerous attempts to have it removed.  Tennessee was strongly divided and almost remained in the Union.  From what I understand, the only reason Tennessee chose to throw in its hat with the Confederacy was because of some little town out in West Tennessee that threatened to leave Tennessee and become a part of Alabama if we remained in the Union.  If you look at pictures of downtown Knoxville (the city I'm from in Tennessee) there was a Confederate recruitment office directly across the street from a Union recruitment office.  This lead to more than a few fights in the streets from what I understand.  East Tennessee was more sympathetic to the Union during the War because people who live in the mountains didn't have the money for slaves or live in terrain that supported plantations large enough to justify slaves.  West Virginia, I believe, actually DID split from Virginia because of the Civil War.

Feelings about the War still run strong, I think, because, compared to the English Civil War, it's still a little more recent and more geographically drawn.  Lots of families (even Northern families) can still tell stories about family members who took part in the War.  I had a general on my dad's side (don't get excited…he wasn't anything to write home about.  Missed the Battle of Chickamauga because he had a hangover ::roll the eyes::).  And it was such a dark time in American history that I think it's important that we remember how awful it was…so it doesn't happen again.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 15, 2011
4:58 pm
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Anyanka
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I hate to drag contempery politics into here but during the 2008 presidental election I saw far too many comments on why it was a bad idea abolishing slavery if this was the end result…..

It's always bunnies.

April 15, 2011
5:18 pm
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MegC
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Anyanka said:

I hate to drag contempery politics into here but during the 2008 presidental election I saw far too many comments on why it was a bad idea abolishing slavery if this was the end result…..


I don't know that everyone in the U.S. will ever truly resolve their racial issues.  I mean, seriously, if the reason you didn't vote for Barack Obama was because of his heritage, then I question your right to vote.  If you're not going to vote for someone, then do it because you don't believe agree with their politics.  Unfortunately, the school I used to teach in was seriously (as in probaby 97%) white and racial ignorance ran deep.  I got so sick of telling my students to drop the stupid racial comments (towards each other!) because I was tired of hearing them.  

And, yes, in parts of the South the Klan is alive and well–don't ask me where though cause I don't know!

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 15, 2011
5:39 pm
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Anyanka said:

  However, the people it enriched were generaly the people who had the power to change the laws….people who were content with the law tend to not want to change them.

 

Then when you look at titles, quite often the woman who inherited a title wasn't allowed to excerise the power and her husband was de jour uxoris holding it in his wife's name and taking all the honour and goods.


Guys — sorry I haven't been around the last couple of days. I think I mentioned that I was pulling a double Tuesday night through Wednesday afternoon — and then ended up working an hour over that. So I don't really remember much of Wednesday night while i was off. LOL Thursday I wasn't online at all, as I had to review my Power Point program for a class I teach at our police academy (I do a 4 hour block on crime scene processing and scene management for the recruits). Then I taught THAT Friday morning — starting at 7 AM. Frown So I've been sleep much of the day and I'm leaving for work in a little bit. So another nap is due before I leave Smile — and I'm pulling another double BUT I'm taking off Saturday night!! (And will with luck get to play catch-up).

Anyway, when you read about such things as primogeniture it makes you realize how fortunate most of us are to live in the here and now. Every single time I see some movie about “old” England and some poor young heiress is married off to someone who doesn't love her, and then he takes control of everything that is her rightful inheritance, it just makes me gag.

At least Olivia deHavilland's Catherine in The Heiress got to turn her back in the end on the slimy fortune hunter and left him helplessly banging on the front door. (Love that moment). Every heiress — English and American — should have gotten that opportunity of choice. Smile  

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 15, 2011
5:56 pm
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La Belle Creole said:


While I agree “Pansy” isn't a good “fit” for Scarlett, the name “Pansy” or other flower names were pretty common in the Antebellum South.  I think Katie Scarlett worked really well for the character specifically because it's an unusual, not traditionally Southern girl's name.  A major theme in GWTW is that Scarlette is NOT a traditional belle and does not mesh well with her social circle. She's more her father's daughter and it frustrates her she doesn't “measure up” to Ellen's genteel, ladylike behavior. 


All I can add is that I LOVE your analysis. And you're right, Scarlett isn't the typical Southern belle. She has a rebellious spirit to her, even when things are still “normal”. She wants to know why she has to act so silly to get a husband; she has intended to have a wonderful time at the barbecue by not spoiling it by eating; she wants to know why napping during the day is so important. And then it all really hit home when she overhears the other girls discussing how she “threw herself” at all the men and didn't behave as a proper young woman. (I think Scarlett wishes she was Samson-like and could just push at the columns of Twelve Oaks and bring the entire house down on them). She IS her father's daughter, but I understood why she wishes she was more “calm” like Ellen. (Which then goes back to her not knowing her mother as well as she thought she did).

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 15, 2011
6:02 pm
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TinaII2None
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Anyanka said:

Sophie1536 said:

Believe it or not I've NEVER seen this film or read the book. I know it's about the American Civil Warbut that's all, seeing as it's topic I feel I must be missing something good, lol!


Me neither until Monday. I'm now about 2/3 rds of the way through.I'm not sure yet, if I'll watch the movie at sometime.


Oh Sophie1536 you really need to check it out one day. It's more than the American Civil War, and while there are some things that are definitely not PC it is still a very insightful book and movie which has obviously stood the test of time. (Hard to believe the movie was released SEVENTY-TWO years ago, during what I feel is the golden year for movies).

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 15, 2011
6:28 pm
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TinaII2None
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MegC said:

South Carolina flies the Rebel (Confederate) flag over their state capitol building.  Fitting since S. Carolina was where the first battle of the Civil War was held, but don't think there haven't been numerous attempts to have it removed.  Tennessee was strongly divided and almost remained in the Union.  From what I understand, the only reason Tennessee chose to throw in its hat with the Confederacy was because of some little town out in West Tennessee that threatened to leave Tennessee and become a part of Alabama if we remained in the Union.  If you look at pictures of downtown Knoxville (the city I'm from in Tennessee) there was a Confederate recruitment office directly across the street from a Union recruitment office.  This lead to more than a few fights in the streets from what I understand.  East Tennessee was more sympathetic to the Union during the War because people who live in the mountains didn't have the money for slaves or live in terrain that supported plantations large enough to justify slaves.  West Virginia, I believe, actually DID split from Virginia because of the Civil War.

Feelings about the War still run strong, I think, because, compared to the English Civil War, it's still a little more recent and more geographically drawn.  Lots of families (even Northern families) can still tell stories about family members who took part in the War.  I had a general on my dad's side (don't get excited…he wasn't anything to write home about.  Missed the Battle of Chickamauga because he had a hangover ::roll the eyes::).  And it was such a dark time in American history that I think it's important that we remember how awful it was…so it doesn't happen again.


Near the campus of our University of Louisville there is a Confederate memorial and since the college has been there since about 1792, well, I'm not sure of the significance of putting the memorial where it is. I've been surprised it's lasted this long. There is also a statue of Colonel John Castleman riding upon his beloved Carolina — he also fought for the Confederacy — and the monument is very popular in Louisville. At Halloween, someone always drapes the figure in white to give it a ghostly appearance, and at Christmas, Carolina is decorated with festive lights and a wreath. Our beautiful Cave Hill Cemetery has graves for both the Union and Confederate dead which are decorated every Memorial Day. But Kentucky WAS a border state  during the War — I think in ways we still are as we advertise ourselves as “the gateway to the South.” We're not completely Southern, but we're not totally Yankee either, although we tend to love to play up the Southern side during the Kentucky Derby when we ply everyone with mint juleps and then we all cry into them while singing My Old Kentucky Home during the post parade. (Which will be 3 weeks from tomorrow on the first Saturday in May).

I think you're right about West Virginia though. And Kentucky was definitely torn too. We're not only the birthplace of Abraham Lincoln, but of Jefferson Davis as well; oh and Mary Todd Lincoln too. Some Kentuckians owned slaves…and remember that Eliza escapes across the Ohio River — from Kentucky — in Uncle Tom's Cabin. Lincoln was friends with the Speed family of Louisville, who owned a plantation called Farmington which was designed by Thomas Jefferson, and the Speeds helped to build our city's history. And when Pennsylvanian Stephen Foster came to Bardstown KY to visit his cousins, the Rowans, it was their plantation, Federal Hill, which inspired him to write our state song My Old Kentucky Home and that's undergone some lyric changes in recent years (Thank God “the darkies” no longer roll on the little cabin floor).

I'll just end this (and go for my nap LOL) by saying that yes, I knew there were still a lot of hard feelings left, as if the War never ended. I definitely found this out when I read James Swanson's Manhunt about the hunt for John Wilkes Booth. In some areas of the South — and I believe Swanson had attended at least one of these events for research purposes — there are dinner parties held every 14th of April to celebrate the assasination of Abraham Lincoln. (Since I'm writing this on the 14th, I guess some of them are being held right now). Swanson was as incredulous as I probably was when I read it, but it just goes to show how many still feel 150 years after the first guns were fired on Fort Sumter.

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 15, 2011
9:27 pm
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MegC
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@ Tina:  They celebrate Lincoln's death?!  Do they handle snakes, too?  I mean, I'd throw those two groups of people in the same category–wouldn't you?  Along with Klan members and those who attend and advocate cock fighting.  I don't know…do you have snake handlers up there in Kentucky?  

The only real plantation we had in Knoxville was probably Crescent Bend (also called the Armstrong-Lockett House) which sits in a bend in the Tennessee River, hence the name.  I think General Longstreet commandeered the house for a command post or something.  And there's the Mabry-Hazen House which wasn't a real plantation per se, but I think they probably owned slaves.  I'm sure there are some bigger plantations still standing out in West Tennessee, but not so much in East Tennessee.

ETA:  Thank god the Tennessee state song is The Tennessee Waltz (no!  NOT Rocky Top as the Pride of the Southland Band would have all of the United States believe).  Unfortunately, I don't know the words to The Tennessee Waltz, but I DO know all the words to Rocky Top

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 16, 2011
10:42 am
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Anyanka said:

I hate to drag contempery politics into here but during the 2008 presidental election I saw far too many comments on why it was a bad idea abolishing slavery if this was the end result…..


Far too many comments like this are still being said.

South Carolina removed the confederate flag from the top of the Capitol building in 2000.  A smaller version now flies on the Capitol lawn.

April 16, 2011
2:44 pm
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TinaII2None
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Anyanka said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04……html?_r=1

 

“I love that time, with the struggles and the way they got through it
all,” Mrs. Sorrow said, trying to explain how a slight interest grew
into full-blown worship. “It just seems like it would have been a
precious time to enjoy being a lady.”

 

 Nearly all periods of history suffers from that. Enjoying being rich and powerful seems to be a common theme in re-enacting some  historical eras. Guess it's just anther version of cosplay prevalent in the amine community.

 

She sews gowns from movie scenes and sells them for $500, taking joy in
seeing the expression on a woman’s face when she puts one on.

 

Wonder how she'd react if some-one wanted a copy of Prissy's dress or Melanie's stained raggy chemise?


ROTFLMAO! Or how about that gown Scarlett starts wearing during the seige of Atlanta and up through the start of the Reconstruction when she finally sews the famous green curtain gown? That flowered thing had seen better days and I only hope Scarlett burned it the minute she knew Frank Kennedy was hers!

No but seriously, if I was going to wear a gown from a particular time frame, I'd choose one of those the AB Forum has for the Tudor era. Or a gown from the Regency period. I've never fancied myself as a Southern belle.

Oh and you mentioned the reenactors usually playing someone rich and powerful from whatever era, although some people also seem to play the working class at a few Renaissance fairs I've been to (buxomy tavern girls seem to be a trend LOL). But I guess it's what I've often heard joked about reincarnation. Everyone used to be Julius Caesar or Cleopatra or Genghis Khan or some other famous person in their past life, but no one is ever a foot soldier, a maid or a clergyman.

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 16, 2011
2:58 pm
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Anyanka said:

I was talking to my mother earlier and she was telling me about when GWTW first shown in British cinemas. With her mother, they queued for over an hour to get tickets and get in. After half an hour or so, the air-raid sirens went and they had to leave. By the time next payday came round  GWTW had gone…..DM never got her birthday treat that year.


Oh how awful! I can't imagine waiting forever to see something I've been wanting to see so much and then have that moment ruined.

Did your mother ever get to see it at a later time?

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 16, 2011
3:16 pm
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Anyanka
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Not until it came on the tv in the 70's.She and my sis watched it with wine and chocolate and a big box of tissues..she now has a copy of it

It's always bunnies.

April 16, 2011
3:45 pm
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MegC said:

@ Tina:  They celebrate Lincoln's death?!  Do they handle snakes, too?  I mean, I'd throw those two groups of people in the same category–wouldn't you?  Along with Klan members and those who attend and advocate cock fighting.  I don't know…do you have snake handlers up there in Kentucky?  

The only real plantation we had in Knoxville was probably Crescent Bend (also called the Armstrong-Lockett House) which sits in a bend in the Tennessee River, hence the name.  I think General Longstreet commandeered the house for a command post or something.  And there's the Mabry-Hazen House which wasn't a real plantation per se, but I think they probably owned slaves.  I'm sure there are some bigger plantations still standing out in West Tennessee, but not so much in East Tennessee.

ETA:  Thank god the Tennessee state song is The Tennessee Waltz (no!  NOT Rocky Top as the Pride of the Southland Band would have all of the United States believe).  Unfortunately, I don't know the words to The Tennessee Waltz, but I DO know all the words to Rocky Top


According to Swanson there are small private pockets that do. I wish I had my copy of Manhunt in front of me right now but I don't, but my jaw dropped. Yes I know the Klan exists, but the thought that there are groups that celebrate Lincoln's death on the anniversary of his murder still amazes me. As for snake handlers — I think I've heard that there are some in Kentucky, and that is such an odd practice to me as a Christian (I'll end it there because I don't want to get into any religious discussions Laugh). 

I'm not quite sure how large any of the plantations in Kentucky were as regrettably, I found myself more fascinated with English history than what little Kentucky history they taught us in school. I only know of three although there were likely more: the Rowan family's Federal Hill (My Old Kentucky Home); Farmington in Louisville (the Speed family) and Locust Grove (owned by the family of the sister of George Rogers Clark, the founder of Louisville and the brother of the Clark of Lewis and Clark fame). There's also Ashland, the estate of Kentucky Senator Henry Clay — The Great Compromiser — but I'm not sure if he was ever a slaveholder. But he had a cousin who was a famous abolitionist (Cassius Marcellus Clay for whom fighter Muhammad Ali was originally named) and Henry Clay was the great-grandfather of a famous Kentucky suffragette (according to Wiki, her father fought for the Union).  

When I attended the National Forensic Academy in Knoxville, which of course is the home base of the University of Tennessee, I think I heard Rocky Top enough to last me the rest of my life. But I think I did learn most of the lyrics to The Tennessee Waltz — thanks to the movie The Right Stuff! (Chuck Yeager and his wife dance to it while it's playing on the jukebox). I think it's a very sad song though considering the poor woman just watched her sweetheart stroll off with another woman, who I believe is also her best friend! *sigh* But our state song's a tearjerker too. Hard times knocking at the door; don't weep anymore ladies, and we bid our Old Kentucky Home good-night. (I swear, it gets me every single time I sing it during the Derby).

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 16, 2011
4:26 pm
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MegC
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TinaII2None said:

MegC said:

@ Tina:  They celebrate Lincoln's death?!  Do they handle snakes, too?  I mean, I'd throw those two groups of people in the same category–wouldn't you?  Along with Klan members and those who attend and advocate cock fighting.  I don't know…do you have snake handlers up there in Kentucky?  

The only real plantation we had in Knoxville was probably Crescent Bend (also called the Armstrong-Lockett House) which sits in a bend in the Tennessee River, hence the name.  I think General Longstreet commandeered the house for a command post or something.  And there's the Mabry-Hazen House which wasn't a real plantation per se, but I think they probably owned slaves.  I'm sure there are some bigger plantations still standing out in West Tennessee, but not so much in East Tennessee.

ETA:  Thank god the Tennessee state song is The Tennessee Waltz (no!  NOT Rocky Top as the Pride of the Southland Band would have all of the United States believe).  Unfortunately, I don't know the words to The Tennessee Waltz, but I DO know all the words to Rocky Top


According to Swanson there are small private pockets that do. I wish I had my copy of Manhunt in front of me right now but I don't, but my jaw dropped. Yes I know the Klan exists, but the thought that there are groups that celebrate Lincoln's death on the anniversary of his murder still amazes me. As for snake handlers — I think I've heard that there are some in Kentucky, and that is such an odd practice to me as a Christian (I'll end it there because I don't want to get into any religious discussions Laugh).
 

I'm not quite sure how large any of the plantations in Kentucky were as regrettably, I found myself more fascinated with English history than what little Kentucky history they taught us in school. I only know of three although there were likely more: the Rowan family's Federal Hill (My Old Kentucky Home); Farmington in Louisville (the Speed family) and Locust Grove (owned by the family of the sister of George Rogers Clark, the founder of Louisville and the brother of the Clark of Lewis and Clark fame). There's also Ashland, the estate of Kentucky Senator Henry Clay — The Great Compromiser — but I'm not sure if he was ever a slaveholder. But he had a cousin who was a famous abolitionist (Cassius Marcellus Clay for whom fighter Muhammad Ali was originally named) and Henry Clay was the great-grandfather of a famous Kentucky suffragette (according to Wiki, her father fought for the Union).  

When I attended the National Forensic Academy in Knoxville, which of course is the home base of the University of Tennessee, I think I heard Rocky Top enough to last me the rest of my life. But I think I did learn most of the lyrics to The Tennessee Waltz — thanks to the movie The Right Stuff! (Chuck Yeager and his wife dance to it while it's playing on the jukebox). I think it's a very sad song though considering the poor woman just watched her sweetheart stroll off with another woman, who I believe is also her best friend! *sigh* But our state song's a tearjerker too. Hard times knocking at the door; don't weep anymore ladies, and we bid our Old Kentucky Home good-night. (I swear, it gets me every single time I sing it during the Derby).


Hmmmm…watching someone walk off your with man or singing about making moonshine.  Not sure which is better…

I went to go look up facts about Georgia (you know, stuff I should probably know since I live here now.  All the Tennessee stuff I learned in elementary school and now I'm having to relearn).  Like an idiot, I thought to myself, “Gee, wonder what the state song is?”  Duh.  “Georgia on My Mind”!

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

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