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Gone With The Wind.
April 12, 2011
9:37 am
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La Belle Creole
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Anyanka said:

Nit-pick time….Rhett refers to Queen Victoria as “the fat Dutch woman” , she was in fact half German on her mother's side and a descendant of the German house of Hanover on her father's side.


Oh Rhett's an incurable racist.  It's one of his less charming traits.  He also calls Gerald O'Hara “a smart Mick on the make.”

April 12, 2011
9:40 am
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MegC said:

After I finish catching up on my stories on my DVR (read: the British and American versions of Being Human), I'm going to pick up GWTW and get started tonight I think.

And, btw, they totally did NOT just kill off the character of Mitchell on the BBC version!!!  WTH?!


I've seen that series on Netflix, but I've got a queue that's already enormous! LOL

I'm glad though that Netflix also has the streaming video. That's how I've been catching up with the latest English miniseries to come my way (Downton Abbey). It's just so sad to see that even in the early 20th century, many of the laws were still so archaic that an estate could be tied up into such a legal knot to prevent the eldest daughter — since there IS no male heir — from inheriting. One of the female protagonist's grandfather even managed to link the girl's mother's American fortune with their family's estate so that even that can't be legally separated. But of course if she'll marry the male cousin who would be the next in line and the legal heir….

Not sure if any of you know for certain, and I trust Margaret Mitchell's knowledge on the subject — but was Georgian law in that era such that a female (if there was no direct male heir) could inherit? If I remember right, Gerald told Scarlett that one day Tara would be hers. I know he tells her he wants her to marry — as long as the man was a Southerner and thought like Scarlett LOL but I can't recall — from the book or movie — him telling her something like “Sorry Katie Scarlett but Tara has to go to Cousin so and so back in the Old Country because none of your brothers lived. Wish I could have left it to you but…”

“Oh Pa…all your talk of land. You talk like an Irishman.” WinkWink

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 12, 2011
9:45 am
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La Belle Creole
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Sharon said:

MegC said:

Anyanka said:

Nit-pick time….Rhett refers to Queen Victoria as “the fat Dutch woman” , she was in fact half German on her mother's side and a descendant of the German house of Hanover on her father's side.


If information was not going to directly and immediately benefit Rhett Butler, he didn't care enough to know it.  I think the point that Mitchell is sort of in a round-about way making in that is that the only “royalty” that Rhett and Scarlett and the like cared about were the upper-crust Southern type.  None of the rest mattered.  And, interestingly, there were distinctions drawn even amongst the Southern cities.  Savannah and Charleston were very old cities and more associated with “old” money whereas Atlanta had more “new” money.  I think Mitchell even mentions at one point that Atlanta was sort of looked down upon by the older cities because of its youth.
As a side note (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), but I have heard that the reason why Sherman did not burn Savannah is that when he got there, he was so struck by its beauty that he couldn't bring himself to do it.  Or maybe it was more advantageous for him to leave it intact since Savannah is the only port city in an otherwise landlocked state (which is probably more the case than the former).


That's true about Sherman.  He did not burn Savannah.  They say it was because he thought it was a gorgeous city.  But he had already brought Georgia to its knees.  He had made his point.  What a guy! And I mean this in the worst possible way, Bless his heart.


The Union Army had some real darlings for officers.  That's for sure.  I'm shocked that the U.S. has never expressed regret or offered an apology to New Orleans for the infamous Order No. 28 issued during the occupation:

 

“As the officers and soldiers of the United States have been subjected to repeated insults from the women (calling themselves ladies) of New Orleans, in return for the most scrupulous noninterference and courtesy on our part, it is ordered that hereafter when any female shall, by word, gesture, or movement, insult or show contempt for any officer or soldier of the United States, she shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation.”

 

In no other occupation or war in its history has the U.S. government supported the concept that female citizens could be charged with prostitution for “insulting or expressing contempt” for its soldiers.

April 12, 2011
9:53 am
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Anyanka said:

Nit-pick time….Rhett refers to Queen Victoria as “the fat Dutch woman” , she was in fact half German on her mother's side and a descendant of the German house of Hanover on her father's side.


Oh man — I missed that line in the book. Or I read it and I've forgotten!

I don't blame you for nit-picking though! I would have been going “Is he talking about Victoria?” because even know better than that. LOL

Can't remember if this was in the book — I know it's in the movie, but remember Rhett telling Bonnie that they would see the Tower where the Little Princes had been? So someone in the family had told her about Edward V and the Duke of York — as a history lesson? A “grim” fairy tale? An introduction to Shakespeare? Of course I'd heard about the brothers when I was a little girl, because I'd been taught Shakespeare from a young age, and I can imagine Melanie being familiar with Shakespeare (and likely history too) since she was a “bluestocking.” I just always wondered how Bonnie found out about them — it's not the usual bedtime story you'd tell a 19th cetury potential Southern belle. Laugh

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 12, 2011
9:53 am
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La Belle Creole said:

TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:

MegC said:

@ La Belle Creole:  I agree.  I don't think a publisher would look at GWTW twice today.  Not only because of it's racism, but also because of it's length.

I think MM wrote GWTW by hand while she was recovering from a broken ankle.


Well, an editor might give it a chance if MM included some kind of apologist social commentary in the narrative.  As you say, it would also have more of a chance if it was shorter.  Scarlett's child-marriage (she was sixteen years old when she married Charles) would have to be adjusted (age change) as well. 


@MegC — it's astonishing to me how many wrote these massive novels by hand (we have it SO easy these days LOL). And you're right about length as well — as though I did once joke with a friend that I wondered if JK Rowling was being paid by the word (or letter) as one of her Harry Potter books ran nearly 600 pages and most of it felt like filler material that added nothing to the story.
@Le Belle Creole — About Scarlett's child-marriage. Compared to Lady Margaret Beaufort, Scarlett was almost over the hill. Poor Margaret was TWELVE when she was married to the 24-year-old Edmund Tudor! I know it was the 15th century but….


LOL … Isn't there a part of you that just cringes?   I have an adult niece who's engaged and I'm STILL a bit ambivalent about her approaching wedding.  She's almost 19 and I think that's just too young.  I know I was nowhere near prepared for marriage at age 19. 


My niece was 21 and I thought she was nuts.   My Mom told me to go out and have all my fun before I married.  She said that way you won't have any regrets.   I followed her advice.  I was 26 when I married.  After mumble, mumble years later I can tell you she was so right.

April 12, 2011
9:57 am
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TinaII2None said:

MegC said:

After I finish catching up on my stories on my DVR (read: the British and American versions of Being Human), I'm going to pick up GWTW and get started tonight I think.

And, btw, they totally did NOT just kill off the character of Mitchell on the BBC version!!!  WTH?!


I've seen that series on Netflix, but I've got a queue that's already enormous! LOL
I'm glad though that Netflix also has the streaming video. That's how I've been catching up with the latest English miniseries to come my way (Downton Abbey). It's just so sad to see that even in the early 20th century, many of the laws were still so archaic that an estate could be tied up into such a legal knot to prevent the eldest daughter — since there IS no male heir — from inheriting. One of the female protagonist's grandfather even managed to link the girl's mother's American fortune with their family's estate so that even that can't be legally separated. But of course if she'll marry the male cousin who would be the next in line and the legal heir….

Not sure if any of you know for certain, and I trust Margaret Mitchell's knowledge on the subject — but was Georgian law in that era such that a female (if there was no direct male heir) could inherit? If I remember right, Gerald told Scarlett that one day Tara would be hers. I know he tells her he wants her to marry — as long as the man was a Southerner and thought like Scarlett LOL but I can't recall — from the book or movie — him telling her something like “Sorry Katie Scarlett but Tara has to go to Cousin so and so back in the Old Country because none of your brothers lived. Wish I could have left it to you but…”

“Oh Pa…all your talk of land. You talk like an Irishman.” WinkWink


Primogeniture never caught on all that well in the U.S.  Early in its history, Savannah attempted to force primogeniture upon its citizens and had to repeal the law. 

 

Primogeniture was actually very impractical because it essentially enriched one lucky heir while depriving all other heirs.  It made for lots of poor widows and/or orphans. 

April 12, 2011
10:10 am
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MegC said:


If information was not going to directly and immediately benefit Rhett Butler, he didn't care enough to know it.  I think the point that Mitchell is sort of in a round-about way making in that is that the only “royalty” that Rhett and Scarlett and the like cared about were the upper-crust Southern type.  None of the rest mattered.  And, interestingly, there were distinctions drawn even amongst the Southern cities.  Savannah and Charleston were very old cities and more associated with “old” money whereas Atlanta had more “new” money.  I think Mitchell even mentions at one point that Atlanta was sort of looked down upon by the older cities because of its youth.
As a side note (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), but I have heard that the reason why Sherman did not burn Savannah is that when he got there, he was so struck by its beauty that he couldn't bring himself to do it.  Or maybe it was more advantageous for him to leave it intact since Savannah is the only port city in an otherwise landlocked state (which is probably more the case than the former).


MegC — I think I remember something in Ken Burns' Civil War series that Sherman thought the city was beautiful, but that may have just been an afterthought on his part.

Interesting you bringing up the point about the distinctions between the old and new cities, old and new money, and the Southern aristocracy, even after the War.

One of the lines that just sends my eyeballs up into the top of my head Laugh is when Rhett tells Scarlett that he intends for Bonnie to have the best and have a place in society. He makes some comment (can't remember it off the top of my head) but to the effect it was that Scarlett had hobnobbed with scalawags and Carpetbaggers and dragged her reputation into the mud. When Scarlett counters with Rhett's own past, he replies with something like “Oh yes, I've had my faults.” (You're waiting for him to add that his sins are nothing like Scarlett's LOL). But he's going to rectify that by the two of them kissing the behinds of every old biddy in the Old Guard.

Which is why to this day I'm very suspicious of the whole “Bonnie sucks her thumb” problem. I wouldn't have put it past Rhett to have told Bonnie to suck her thumb until “Daddy tells you to stop” just so he could ask Mrs. Merriwether and Mrs. Meade for help. (Good grief — if the child WAS sucking her thumb, Mammy would have said something and told how to stop it too LOL).

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 12, 2011
10:19 am
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La Belle Creole said:


Oh Rhett's an incurable racist.  It's one of his less charming traits.  He also calls Gerald O'Hara “a smart Mick on the make.”


Ouch! I do vaguely remember that line. Was that during one of those times when he was telling Scarlett not to put on airs of superiority (I'm supposing because she had some Irish in her background)? Reminds me of Errol Flynn's Essex's snide comment about Elizabeth's “common” Welsh ancestry. These men — I swear….

One of the things I'm going to love about reading GWTW again is that there are things I'll likely pick up on now that I may not have when I was younger. I guess I was once under the mistaken impression that if you were a rich Southerner in before the War, you “ran together” but then I remembered this wasn't always the case. I can't recall their names now, but wasn't there a Scottish landowning family that lived near Tara and the O'Haras looked down on them? (Boy this book is going to bring back some memories).

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 12, 2011
10:32 am
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La Belle Creole said:


Primogeniture never caught on all that well in the U.S.  Early in its history, Savannah attempted to force primogeniture upon its citizens and had to repeal the law. 

 

Primogeniture was actually very impractical because it essentially enriched one lucky heir while depriving all other heirs.  It made for lots of poor widows and/or orphans. 


I'm glad it didn't catch on and I had no idea about Savannah. What an idiotic archaic load of claptrap. I know I'm assigning my modern outlook on it, but it doesn't even make logical sense. (Jane Austen captured that subject all too well, especially in Sense and Sensibility). But then, neither does bypassing and/or sacrificing a perfectly suitable older daughter in favor of a son when it comes down to inheriting a throne.

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 12, 2011
10:36 am
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Anyanka
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Sharon said:

La Belle Creole said:


LOL … Isn't there a part of you that just cringes?   I have an adult niece who's engaged and I'm STILL a bit ambivalent about her approaching wedding.  She's almost 19 and I think that's just too young.  I know I was nowhere near prepared for marriage at age 19.
 


My niece was 21 and I thought she was nuts.   My Mom told me to go out and have all my fun before I married.  She said that way you won't have any regrets.   I followed her advice.  I was 26 when I married.  After mumble, mumble years later I can tell you she was so right.
 


Depends on the couple I guess. I wasn't ready to marry at 16, 29 or 26. But I have school-friends who married at 16 and celebrated their 30th  last year. I have 2 more friends who clebrate 30 next year who married at 18. I've also friends who are on their 3rd or 4th marriage/long term relationship.

 

We moved in together at 24 and finally married 12 years later.

It's always bunnies.

April 12, 2011
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TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:


Oh Rhett's an incurable racist.  It's one of his less charming traits.  He also calls Gerald O'Hara “a smart Mick on the make.”


Ouch! I do vaguely remember that line. Was that during one of those times when he was telling Scarlett not to put on airs of superiority (I'm supposing because she had some Irish in her background)? Reminds me of Errol Flynn's Essex's snide comment about Elizabeth's “common” Welsh ancestry. These men — I swear….
One of the things I'm going to love about reading GWTW again is that there are things I'll likely pick up on now that I may not have when I was younger. I guess I was once under the mistaken impression that if you were a rich Southerner in before the War, you “ran together” but then I remembered this wasn't always the case. I can't recall their names now, but wasn't there a Scottish landowning family that lived near Tara and the O'Haras looked down on them? (Boy this book is going to bring back some memories).


Rhett told Scarlett Gerald was “a smart Mick on the make” when they argued about Scarlett's responsibility for her poor reputation and how her kids were excluded by the Quality families from children's parties and such because of it.  He was impressed by Ellen's Creole heritage, but not Gerald.

April 12, 2011
10:43 am
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Anyanka
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TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:


Primogeniture never caught on all that well in the U.S.  Early in its history, Savannah attempted to force primogeniture upon its citizens and had to repeal the law.
 

 

Primogeniture was actually very impractical because it essentially enriched one lucky heir while depriving all other heirs.  It made for lots of poor widows and/or orphans. 


I'm glad it didn't catch on and I had no idea about Savannah. What an idiotic archaic load of claptrap. I know I'm assigning my modern outlook on it, but it doesn't even make logical sense. (Jane Austen captured that subject all too well, especially in Sense and Sensibility). But then, neither does bypassing and/or sacrificing a perfectly suitable older daughter in favor of a son when it comes down to inheriting a throne.
 


One of the things the British govt keeping talking about is changing the laws of succession. Currently it's Charles, William, Harry, Andrew, his daughters, Edward, his son, his daughter and then Anne.

Changing the law to age would end up Charles, William, Harry, Anne, Peter Philips, his daughter, Zara Philips, Andrew, his daughters, Edward, his daughter, his son.

It's always bunnies.

April 12, 2011
10:56 am
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La Belle Creole said:


Rhett told Scarlett Gerald was “a smart Mick on the make” when they argued about Scarlett's responsibility for her poor reputation and how her kids were excluded by the Quality families from children's parties and such because of it.  He was impressed by Ellen's Creole heritage, but not Gerald.


Oh NOW I remember it. Funny how this stuff is coming back.

Ran across this title while I was getting my Amazon copy of GWTW — any of you familar with it?

http://us.macmillan.com/rhettb…..lerspeople

And I'm going to have to start winding down. This is my last night at work, but because we're shorthanded right now, I'm going to pull a double and work EIGHT HOURS OVERTIME on tomorrow's daywork shift. So at minimum I'll be working 16 straight hours and then will be off for 2 nights. I may be back on later — I'm addicted to this thread LOL but if not, I'll see you all sometime tomorrow! Laugh

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 12, 2011
11:18 am
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Oh and I just watched this and forgot to send the link: Tour of Margaret Mitchell House. It's on the website with the book promotion for Rhett Butler's People. One thing I'd forgotten — thankfully. That Scarlett was originally named Pansy in the book Tomorrow is Another Day. Thank God all that changed.

Pansy and Rhett.

ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused *shudder*

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 12, 2011
11:26 am
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Anyanka
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TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:


Primogeniture never caught on all that well in the U.S.  Early in its history, Savannah attempted to force primogeniture upon its citizens and had to repeal the law.
 

 

Primogeniture was actually very impractical because it essentially enriched one lucky heir while depriving all other heirs.  It made for lots of poor widows and/or orphans. 


I'm glad it didn't catch on and I had no idea about Savannah. What an idiotic archaic load of claptrap. I know I'm assigning my modern outlook on it, but it doesn't even make logical sense. (Jane Austen captured that subject all too well, especially in Sense and Sensibility). But then, neither does bypassing and/or sacrificing a perfectly suitable older daughter in favor of a son when it comes down to inheriting a throne.
 


However, the people it enriched were generaly the people who had the power to change the laws….people who were content with the law tend to not want to change them.

 

Then when you look at titles, quite often the woman who inherited a title wasn't allowed to excerise the power and her husband was de jour uxoris holding it in his wife's name and taking all the honour and goods.

It's always bunnies.

April 12, 2011
11:30 am
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Anyanka
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TinaII2None said:

 

Pansy and Rhett.

ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused *shudder*


It lacks a certain….something   doesn't it!

It's always bunnies.

April 12, 2011
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TinaII2None said:

Oh and I just watched this and forgot to send the link: Tour of Margaret Mitchell House. It's on the website with the book promotion for Rhett Butler's People. One thing I'd forgotten — thankfully. That Scarlett was originally named Pansy in the book Tomorrow is Another Day. Thank God all that changed.

Pansy and Rhett.

ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused *shudder*


While I agree “Pansy” isn't a good “fit” for Scarlett, the name “Pansy” or other flower names were pretty common in the Antebellum South.  I think Katie Scarlett worked really well for the character specifically because it's an unusual, not traditionally Southern girl's name.  A major theme in GWTW is that Scarlette is NOT a traditional belle and does not mesh well with her social circle. She's more her father's daughter and it frustrates her she doesn't “measure up” to Ellen's genteel, ladylike behavior. 

April 14, 2011
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Anyanka
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04……html?_r=1

 

“I love that time, with the struggles and the way they got through it
all,” Mrs. Sorrow said, trying to explain how a slight interest grew
into full-blown worship. “It just seems like it would have been a
precious time to enjoy being a lady.”

 

 Nearly all periods of history suffers from that. Enjoying being rich and powerful seems to be a common theme in re-enacting some  historical eras. Guess it's just anther version of cosplay prevalent in the amine community.

 

She sews gowns from movie scenes and sells them for $500, taking joy in
seeing the expression on a woman’s face when she puts one on.

 

Wonder how she'd react if some-one wanted a copy of Prissy's dress or Melanie's stained raggy chemise?

It's always bunnies.

April 14, 2011
7:29 am
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Anyanka said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04……html?_r=1

 

“I love that time, with the struggles and the way they got through it

all,” Mrs. Sorrow said, trying to explain how a slight interest grew

into full-blown worship. “It just seems like it would have been a

precious time to enjoy being a lady.”

 

 Nearly all periods of history suffers from that. Enjoying being rich and powerful seems to be a common theme in re-enacting some  historical eras. Guess it's just anther version of cosplay prevalent in the amine community.

 

She sews gowns from movie scenes and sells them for $500, taking joy in

seeing the expression on a woman’s face when she puts one on.

 

Wonder how she'd react if some-one wanted a copy of Prissy's dress or Melanie's stained raggy chemise?


I am almost ashamed to admit that this woman doesn't live too far from me.  Maybe when I get a chance I'll pop over to the Marietta GWTW museum.  

“It just seems like it would have been a precious time to enjoy being a lady”????  WTH?!  Nobody in my family was enjoying being a lady in the 1860's, and my family settled in the south LOOOOOONG before Tennessee became a state.  The number of true large plantations in the South before the Civil War was tiny compared to the overall population of the region.  Who does she think she's kidding??

I think I'll call her up and order the dress Scarlett wore when she fled Atlanta…or maybe the one she wears at Tara while picking cotton.  I wonder if she'd charge me $500 for that?

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 14, 2011
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Believe it or not I've NEVER seen this film or read the book. I know it's about the American Civil Warbut that's all, seeing as it's topic I feel I must be missing something good, lol!

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