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Why not just divorce??
July 20, 2011
6:50 am
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Clarebear
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hey guys, i have been doing some reading this afternoon and I found a few interesting snippets I though you guys might be interest in.  I recently found a website call http://www.british-history.ac.uk Date accessed: 20 July 2011.

 

2.  A paper destined for Spain to announce Anne Boleyns Imprisonment states ….

“English News of Anne Boleyn's Imprisonment.”
It is further added that even if the said concubine's adulterous connections had not been discovered, the King was determined to cast her away from him, owing to his being sure, from the evidence of witnesses perfectly agreeing together, that nine years before she had been married to and consummated matrimony with the Earl of Nottemberlan (Northumberland).

http://www.british-history.ac……ery=boleyn

 

This leads me to the question then …. why didnt Henry just divorce or send Anne away on these grounds?  What are your thoughts?

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July 20, 2011
7:56 am
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Anyanka
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IF she was going to procure a child, you'd have thought she would have made sure to get a son not a daughter. How they got the child into the birthing chamber, considering any-one who was any-one could be present….guess it was the old warming-pan technique. AFAIK, Henry never denied the paternity of Elizabeth

Anne's marriage was annulled a day or 2 before her execution.

It's always bunnies.

July 20, 2011
8:37 am
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MegC
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Ok, well, obviously the second one has been sort of brought to light and popularized with TOBG.  Whether or not it's true is another matter.  I mean, these are reports being sent to the Spanish court which we all know was none-too-happy with Anne and likely to believe some of the most heinous stuff.  I mean, look at Chapuys.

However, the first one that you referenced–wow!!  I had never heard that one!  It would be interesting to know how they suggested that Anne faked a pregnancy and labor and childbirth without Henry ever knowing about it.

I think people think I'm crazy, but I still say that Henry had Anne murdered because he couldn't stand the thought of going through another 7-year divorce.  He had decided (probably somewhat correctly) that Anne would fight him.  Not only that, but he was also probably trying to save face before his subjects.  He had spent 7 years ridding himself of a very popular wife, telling his people over and over again that she wasn't his true wife–that this woman, Anne Boleyn, was destined to be his true wife.  And his subjects had accepted it, even if some of them didn't like it.  And Anne, for all her admirable qualities, never managed to attain the level of love and acceptance that Katherine had won.  And part of the reason why Anne never achieved that was precisely because of those qualities that we find admirable in a woman, but men and women of Tudor England did not.  Henry and Anne both knew that she wasn't popular, so making treason charges–no matter how outrageous–stick was easier for him than going through another divorce.  Before Anne would agree to a divorce, she had to be broken, and I don't think Anne was truly broken until she was taken to the Tower and realized there was no hope for her.  I mean, what was Henry going to say, “Oops, my bad.  Remember how I thought Anne was my true wife?  Yeah, I was wrong.  Again.  Silly me.  You'd think I'd have figured it all out by now, but clearly not.  So, yeah, I know I plunged everyone into this huge political mess with the Pope and everything, and I wound up treating Katherine like crap and turned my eldest daughter into a bastard for this woman.  But…I'm just going to divorce her and try again!”  Does that sound like Henry?  Of course not!  And that's the message that simply divorcing Anne would have given.  This man can't even pick a wife–how can he competently run our country?

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

July 20, 2011
10:39 am
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I think there was some fear that H8 and Anne would kiss and make up as they always did after their tiffs… Isn't this why she was killed? Otherwise H8 would just have divorced her and banished her to a nunnery in probably another country! Anne didn't have the kind of friends KOA had and had made a few enemies at court, so Im not sure H8 would have had any trouble in divorcing her. If he was worried about a lengthy divorce he would just have bribed her with her actual outcome anyway, till she gave up. And she accepted the annulment…

He must have been really brain damaged to go from lovers quarrells to wife killing…

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

July 20, 2011
11:33 am
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Impish_Impulse
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I think he killed her because of all the people who didn't accept the concept of divorce – quite a large percentage of England had been raised under Catholicism, which taught that divorce was wrong. Those people had had to accept the King's wishes to rid himself of KOA, but didn't like it. Now that Katharine was dead, they considered him widowed. If he had simply put Anne away, there would have been an uproar again, because he had declared Anne his wife and had had a child with her and that constituted a common-law marriage that would affect the legality of him marrying Jane. But if Anne is dead (and conveniently blamed for the divorce from Katharine), then Henry's slate is wiped clean and no one can question his marriage to Jane.

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July 20, 2011
11:15 pm
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Catalina
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I was thinking about this last night and it's actually quite overwhelming to think he basically had her executed because he couldn't be bothered with her anymore (to put it in simplistic terms).  What a terrifying prospect it must have been to become involved with this man.  I love the alleged quote of Christina of Denmark in response to Henry's interest in her as a bride “If I had two heads, one should be at the King of England's disposal.”

'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable'  Thomas More

July 21, 2011
5:11 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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Henry never questioned Elizabeth's parentage. Amazingly he didn't. Just saying…

I agree with Starkey's argument that blood had been shed to make Anne's marriage, so blood would be shed to have it undone. It seems the whole thing had come full circle, and Anne found herself in a den of wolves, out for blood, and wanted rid of her. It was not simply Henry who wanted her gone. Anne had many enemies, few friends, and none as powerful as KOA had years before.

I agree with Impish. To Catholics, Henry was a widower. His “real” wife dead, and he was free to marry. Anne was his mistress, not wife or Queen. To kill her was no great loss. She was not a princess. Who would speak for her? No one. So, be rid of the cancer and move on. For many, it is better to be the right hand of the devil than in his path.

Putting Anne away was too risky a venture. There was always a risk by keeping her alive. Remember the problems surrounding KOA and Mary. The constant risk of rebellion, violence, or Elizabeth supporting her mother and joining forces.

By 1536, divorcing Anne was not an option. Henry had to save face, and killing her was the best option. He moved heaven and earth to marry her, ripped apart English society, and was simply going to divorce her. No way. Anne's removal had to be permanent. Out of sight, out of mind. Nopt just take her down, but those of her closest friends.

Henry was not only getting rid of a wife he no longer loved, but was making a clear statment to others: I am King. Do not cross me. Any who deny me will meet the same fate as Anne Boleyn.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

July 21, 2011
7:07 am
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Anne fan
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I agree with everyone who's said it was speed that was the issue – Henry wasn't getting any younger and clearly had intermittent impotency issues: he couldn't afford another six/seven-year battle.

A slight technicality – while the Catholic church does not agree with divorce it has never had a problem with annulment which basically says the marriage was never legal and therefore didn't happen. Henry annulled four out of six marriages but he never divorced anyone.

Chapuys' report was probably fairly accurate – the faction opposing Anne and backing Jane couldn't think of anything other than pre-contract to Henry Percy – something he'd denied (on oath I think) when his wife tried to annul their marriage. It took the warped genius of Cromwell to come up with something different and completely unexpected.

I'd never heard the rumour about the child but quite a few of the letters purportedly sent at the time have been proved to be forgeries – I wonder if this was forged in Elizabeth I's reign to try and discredit her?

July 21, 2011
7:56 am
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Catalina said:

I was thinking about this last night and it's actually quite overwhelming to think he basically had her executed because he couldn't be bothered with her anymore (to put it in simplistic terms).  What a terrifying prospect it must have been to become involved with this man.  I love the alleged quote of Christina of Denmark in response to Henry's interest in her as a bride “If I had two heads, one should be at the King of England's disposal.”


I too love Christina of Denmark's remark, Catalina- what a clever woman! And so cheeky!

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

July 21, 2011
8:08 am
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Catalina
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I would love to have seen Henry's reaction to that remark….

'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable'  Thomas More

July 21, 2011
8:43 am
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MegC
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If Christina of Denmark truly made that statement (and I hope to dear God that she did), then I would imagine that Henry's interest in her waned significantly once he heard that 😀

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

July 21, 2011
8:56 am
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Anne fan
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He kept her portrait though…

July 21, 2011
2:08 pm
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Wendy
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Henry declared that he was putting Katherine aside because his conscience was troubled, not because he wanted a Son that she could not give him. 

When Anne could not give him a Son either, it would have looked highly suspicious if he said the same about her and moved on to Jane.  There had to be a swift, permanent solution that could not be challenged, and treason/adultery/incest was it.  If people believed the charges against Anne, then Henry would get sympathy rather than becoming the laughing stock of Europe.

July 21, 2011
2:29 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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Anne fan said:

 

A slight technicality – while the Catholic church does not agree with divorce it has never had a problem with annulment which basically says the marriage was never legal and therefore didn't happen. Henry annulled four out of six marriages but he never divorced anyone.


My bad. 

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          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

August 11, 2011
4:11 am
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Catalina said:

I would love to have seen Henry's reaction to that remark….


Me too! I wonder how his ambassador told him- much looking down and shuffling of the feet I imagine! I think Henry would have been intrigued.. He loved the chase!

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

October 25, 2011
10:57 am
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229bluebell
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i think if henry divorced anne in his mind she would be always in the back ground. And it would be a reminder of how in is mind she bewitched him and every one would have throught him a fool to tricked in to marriage. The people already throught she was a witch and had cursed him so behead and then rewed people have short memories (or so he thought ) but thats just what i think Smile

October 25, 2011
11:41 am
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Bella44
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I was wondering if Henry had Anne beheaded it was partly because he believed she was guilty and had committed adultery, whereas with Katherine of Aragon there was never any suggestion of such behaviour on her part?

January 3, 2012
1:26 pm
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Boleyn
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Actually Claire the website is wrong.. Weston, Brereton, Norris and Smeton, were executed on the 17th of May as was Anne's brother George.. Weston, Brereton, Norris and Lord Rocheford were simply beheaded, because they were landed gentry, Poor Mark Smeton however being a commoner didn't have that favour, he had to go through the full horror of being Hung Drawn and Quartered.

Anne was due to be executed the next day, but adverse weather on the channel delayed the French Executioner. So of course her death was delayed until the 19th instead and although the time for her death was meant to be 8am it didn't in fact take place until 12.

Henry wouldn't or couldn't just divorce Anne to do that would be almost like an admission that the Pope was right all along and that Catherine was his wife, that would also mean that Mary would once again be his heir regardless to any sons he would have.

 

I think the main reason behind her death is because of what Anne was rumoured to have said, that basically he was lousy in bed and couldn't satisfy her anyway. Did she say these words? I don't think so, but he couldn't take the risk that if he had just divorced her that she wouldn't repeat these words.. Bear in mind in those days the King was a God to the people and they were brilliant at everything, to have someone question that would have been treason, which is exactly why Henry took it personally.

Henry subsequent behaviour with Catherine Howard  leads me to suspect that was actually an element of truth in what Anne is alleged to have said. Think about it.. Jane Seymour was dead so she couldn't say if the rumours were true or not. Anne of Cleves never slept with him so it doesn't matter. Catherine Parr outlived him so what would it matter what she said about Henry's bedtime antics. Now Catherine Howard did sleep with him but again the reason she died, was not because of her adultery although it didn't help was because once again Henry had once again been attacked in the very spot that Anne had alledged to have hit. Henry could have divorced Catherine and sent to a convent or even made her marry Dereham and exilled them both, only for them to disappear a short time later. He simply couldn't take that risk so she too had to die.

Anne however was clever and she managed to save her daughter from Henry's spite and malice, although Elizabeth was named bastard, Anne made sure that whatever happened to her that Elizabeth would be Queen.

Anne made the ultimate sacrifice, herself to save Elizabeth.. Anne is my heroine, a wonderful, intelligent and beautiful woman. One wishes I had a Time Machine as I would love to meet her..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 3, 2012
4:48 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said:

Actually Claire the website is wrong.. Weston, Brereton, Norris and Smeton, were executed on the 17th of May as was Anne’s brother George.. Weston, Brereton, Norris and Lord Rocheford were simply beheaded, because they were landed gentry, Poor Mark Smeton however being a commoner didn’t have that favour, he had to go through the full horror of being Hung Drawn and Quartered.

All my cites say that Smeaton was beheaded . The only royal adulterer who has hung drawn and quartered was Francis Dereham the supposed lover of Katherine Howard.

 

Sorry to use wiki but all my books got tidyed away for the new stash

It's always bunnies.

January 3, 2012
4:56 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said:


Henry wouldn't or couldn't just divorce Anne to do that would be almost like an admission that the Pope was right all along and that Catherine was his wife, that would also mean that Mary would once again be his heir regardless to any sons he would have.

Cramner annuled Henry and Anne's marriage on May 14th 1536. This meant the marriage never happened. Just like the ones to Katherine of Aragon and Anne of Cleves. I'm not sure if KAthryn Howard's was annuled or not, I don't think it was, leaving Henry a widower…

It's always bunnies.

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