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Why ?
March 2, 2014
10:45 am
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Gio
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Why do I love Anne Boleyn? She was not a great queen, she caused a lot of troubles and pains to a lot of people refusing to give the king what he wanted, like her sister did. People did not love her, she was ambitious, intriguing, she loved the king much more than the man, she wanted to be queen, no matter if the king’s first daughter was then something like a bastard or a second choice daughter.
My simpathy should go to Catherine of Aragon, great and beloved queen, put aside after one life spent with the king just because of a younger woman.
What did Anne Boleyn do? Anything special to be remembered for, excepting the execution?
But inspite of all, i spend time watching her face in the portrait of NPG, her smile which reminds me the Mona Lisa’s one. I do not watch the portrait quality, like i do for all other portraits, i look the face, the eyes.
Why? Should i think that this woman is still bewitching after 500 years?

March 2, 2014
10:54 am
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Gio
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ops… it seems one line disappeared.. after ”excepting the execution?” add:

Yes, she was the mother of Elizabeth I, but this is not the reason she is loved for, not the reason of so many sites about her.

March 3, 2014
1:44 pm
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Louise
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Anne was a Queen Consort and not a Queen in her own right. Therefore, her power was limited, and purely dependant on Henry. I’m not sure we can say that she wasn’t a great Queen Consort. That depends on your point of view. She promoted the arts, she was generous towards charities and she supported her husband. As wife of the King little else was expected of her. Irrespective of that, she had great influence over Henry in relation to policy and more specifically religious reform.
Likewise I don’t think we can say her refusal to have a sexual relationship with Henry outside of marriage caused a lot of people pain and suffering. Firstly, why should she have been forced into a sexual relationship with Henry which she didn’t want? Secondly, it was Henry who persisted in chasing her, not the other way around. Rather than being ambitious to be Queen she fled to Hever in order to avoid Henry’s advances.
You say ‘she loved the King more than she loved the man’, but we have no way of knowing what was in her heart. She agreed to become his wife, but I believe that was because she fell in love with him. Her later jealousy towards Henry’s mistresses would seem to show she did really love him.
My sympathy is with Catherine and Anne, both of whom suffered at the hands of Henry.
What did Anne do? She gave us Elizabeth, she and her faction influenced Henry towards the break with Rome, and she acted well in her role as Queen Consort. For her pains she was wrongly accused of treason and died with the dignity and courage of a true Queen. That’s why she is admired, why she is so fascinating and why we are still discussing her nearly five-hundred years after her death.

March 4, 2014
4:21 pm
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Gio
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I thought she had been sent to Hever to avoid the scandal of having both women, wife and lover, at court which would not have been considered very fair in the matter of king’s divorce.
She was not such a young girl, it seems she knew quite a lot of the life, difficult to believe she was so innocent after so many years at French court, and anyway to be king’s lover was not considered a shame in that time.
Who knows? Was it love or passion or ambition?
For sure both were jealous but jealousy is never a sign of love. It is egoism, sense of ownership or insecurity but never a proof of love. Never, it is time to give jealousy the right name, it is not a love feeling but a disease.

March 4, 2014
7:33 pm
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Louise
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Anne returned to Hever at a later stage once she had agreed to marry Henry in order to avoid scandal, but initially she retired there to get away from Henry’s unwanted advances.
Though you may believe Anne was a trollop at the French court, there is no evidence to support that (unless you swallow the hypothesise of Weir).
People can be jealous for many reasons, some bad, but whether a ‘disease’ or not, people in love tend to be jealous when their husbands commit adultery!

March 4, 2014
8:41 pm
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Sharon
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It depends on what period of time you are speaking of as to when she was at Hever. When Henry first started pursuing her and she was not interested in becoming his whore, she fled to the sanctuary of Hever. Many women may have thought it was not shameful to be the king’s whore, but Anne did. She returned to court only after she agreed to be Henry’s wife; and it took him a while to convince her that he really meant to marry her. People may say she was holding out, that she was using her arsenal of feminine wiles, but I think that’s a load of garbage.

I see Anne as a woman who was caught up in the king’s net with no easy way out. He was pursuing her relentlessly, and I do think eventually, she began to care a great deal for him. He was a strong powerful man who was telling her constantly how much he loved her. For all her worldliness, she fell for him. Many dispute that she loved him. That’s fine, but I ask, what was she supposed to do? Henry had not let up on his pursuit of her and there was no other answer to give him that he would accept. No one else would pursue her as long as Henry was there. She decided marrying a king who professed his undying love was a good thing. By this time, why would she say no? So, love, passion, and ambition? Yes, of course.

She was 21 when she returned home from France, but that does not mean that she was willing to go to bed with someone before marriage. Worldly does not mean she fell into bed with Henry just because he was king and it was done by others. She had seen what falling into bed with kings did for her sister. Nothing good. Anne’s parents were not happy that either of their daughters had caught the eye of kings. The relationship between Mary and her parents was not a very good one after the affairs she had with kings. Anne was a very religious person, and morality meant a great deal to her. When people speak of Anne, quite often her morality is completely left out of the conversation. Anne knew what she wanted out of life. What she didn’t want was to be someone’s lover, king or not.

Yes, Anne did return to Hever when Compaggio was going to arrive from Rome. Henry always wanted it believed that the reason for the divorce was because his conscience was troubled over being married to his brother’s wife.

March 5, 2014
3:00 pm
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Gio
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I want to make sure it is clear that I admire Anne Boleyn, exactly like I love Elizabeth (Sissi) Empress of Austria who was neither a good wife and mother nor a good Empress but she is one of the most admired women of the history.
I never thought that Anne Boleyn was a whore, that she divided or not her bed with the King before marrying him or that she had or not any kind of liason at any level when she was in France.
Morality was very open in XVI century compared with XVII° and XIX°, in some way 1500 was more modern in every field.
For sure she was not a saint, no deeply religious woman of any time would accept to relation with a married man, exchange love letters, make love in any soft or deep way, and especially be the cause of one divorce, furthermore pretextuous. No saint woman would try to part a father from his daughter or accept that the ex wife, now sister in law, was treated like Catherine
No Anne the whore and no Holy Anne, therefore.
I think at the beginning she did play her cards very well, she was an ambitious woman, probably a modern woman.
I still think she loved more the King than the man or probably she loved the man because he was king, may be without any cold calculation behind but knowing very well that her future would change a lot, but then she overestimated her power.
What she did not know is that such a strong passion, like the one of Henry, if not supported by a true love, often turns in hate with the time and so she was the most happy for a too short time.
Poor Anne, probably victim of herself.

Please, forgive all the mistakes, it is very hard to express the feelings in another language.

March 5, 2014
7:33 pm
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Sharon
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Smile Your English is fine.
As to the morality of 16th century England, it seems it was a bit more moral than it was during the 17th. Charles II had a very lax court, but he is so much fun. Henry believed in marrying for love. He thought he had with four of his wives.
No, Anne was not a saint. She had human failings just like everyone else. Henry had been looking for a way out of his marriage to Katherine for a number of years. I could be wrong, but I think he was inquiring about a divorce as early as 1514. When he found out that Katherine could no longer give him children, he started looking for another woman to take her place. It happened to be Anne he set his sight on. I don’t believe Anne was the reason for the divorce from Katherine.
Anne found herself in a position in which she could not extricate herself from. It is sad to say, but her attitude towards Katherine and Mary was over the top at times. Anne, nor Henry for that matter, thought for a moment that divorcing Katherine would turn into the fiasco that it did. It was not only Anne who caused grief for Katherine and Mary. Henry, the king, allowed them to be treated poorly. Anne did try to make peace with Mary a few times, and Mary would have none of it. Anne asked one of the ladies in the Tower with her at the end to tell Mary she was sorry for what she did. Henry was not so forgiving of Mary. He sent people to threaten her to sign his oath, and that was after Anne was gone.
It would be impossible to separate the man from the king. I think she decided on the whole package. She overestimated her power with Henry, and she definitely underestimated Henry.

March 5, 2014
9:11 pm
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Anyanka
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Anne wasn’t the sole reason for the annulment of the Aragon marriage but her refusal to be Henry’s mistress was a catalyst. Henry had fallen out with Ferdinand of Aragon once Ferdinand had made an alliance with Francis of France.

Henry saw his once fertile queen no longer as a sign of England’s importance in Europe but as a burden following the death of Ferdinand. She lno longer was the child of a united Spain but the sister of an imprisoned and deposed queen whose son wasn’t overly intereasted in the English backwater . So Henry was looking for a younger fertile wife with a powerful family to aid his visions of military glory .

Once Henry was rejected by Anne then he had to possess her by air means and the orginial plan of marrying a French princess was abandoned for what Henry supposed was going to be a quick and quiet annulment followed by Anne producing the longed for son and heir that Henry had always needed.

Given how readily Anne concieved at her advanced age of 31 or so when she was pregnant with Elizabeth, there can be no reason to suspose that an earlier marriage wouldn’t have filled Henry’s nurseries with enough children of both genders to have cemented Henry and Anne as the founders of a successful royal dynasty.

It's always bunnies.

March 5, 2014
11:43 pm
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Boleyn
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The trouble I think with Anne and Henry relationship, was as Starkey put it, “mistress’s were know to be firey and tempremental and it was accepted.” Once Henry had married Anne he had expected Anne to settle down and become a breeding machine as K.O.A had been and basically, “shut her eyes as her betters had done before her” to his infidelities etc.

But some how to my mind Anne refused to be the sit by the fire wife as K.O.A had been, and got fed up with her tempestious nature. Equally so she could no longer use Hever to use as a bolt hole when Henry behaviour became too much for her to stomach. To be honest Lard Arse and Anne were a very volatile mix, almost like a molatove cocktail, never knowing which one of them would explode first. Although they loved each other they were also very bad for each other too. Jealously was really the pin that made the molatove cocktail explode. Anne I think found it very difficult to accept that after 7 years of celibacy until they had married that he now suddenly wanted to tinker around with other woman.

On the other hand after 7 years of devoted celibacy to Henry, she was suddenly flirting with other men, well in Henry’s eyes she was. but wasn’t she doing that anyway when they were courting? did she not have a motto Noli me tangere. Basically in 16th century speak “Do not touch me for Caesar’s I am”. In 21st century speak “Bugger off before I kick you hard in the Gentleman department.”

For those who remember one Star Trek episode when Spock has to go back to his home world to meet his bride, and it ends up that his bride doesn’t want Spock and she chooses Kirk to fight with Spock to the death, to free her from her marriage with Spock. At the end Spock says “You might find that having something is not quite the same as wanting something.” and I think this is what happened with Anne and Lard Arse, once they got each other the spark they had slowly faded into nothing.

In much the same way but much quicker when Lard Arse was wanting to marry A.O.C. he fell in love with a portrait was all fire and passion in wanting her and when he processed her the fire went out.

Anne did what was expected as Queen, but she did have a very hard task in front of her, she would have known what was expected of her as Queen being that she had lived in the court of the netherlands and France as well as being a maid in waiting to K.O.A so what to do wasn’t the problem it was the hostility of the people she had to overcome. Many people had grown up knowing only K.O.A as Queen so to them Anne was just a common stumpet with ideas above her station. She knew that the people hated her, but did her best to make them see reason, the stress of the people’s hatred for her mustn’t of helped her relationship with Henry, especially as he was off trying to roger anything that moved, she needed his support more than then she ever did before he married her, and all he cared about was his own needs and wants. Small wonder they had some humdingers of rows.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 6, 2014
12:08 am
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Anyanka
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O/T…It was called Amok Time and Spock went to Pon Farr and had to mate with his Arranged Bride…errr…why is every-one looking at me….

What’s realy sad is that I can quote most of the Orginal Series shows by heart..

It's always bunnies.

March 6, 2014
12:15 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Th Anne I think found it very difficult to accept that after 7 years of celibacy until they had married that he now suddenly wanted to tinker around with other woman.

On the other hand after 7 years of devoted celibacy to Henry, she was suddenly flirting with other men, well in Henry’s eyes she was. but wasn’t she doing that anyway when they were courting?

I always wonder if good ole Hal wasn’t playing away while laying seige to Anne..I know he and KoA shared a bed for form’s sake but did he have a lady or 2 or 3 that was well hidden and suitable paid off so as to not make too much of a fuss..

It's always bunnies.

March 6, 2014
2:36 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said
did she not have a motto Noli me tangere. Basically in 16th century speak “Do not touch me for Caesar’s I am”.

No..that was from a poem written by Thomas Wyatt called Whoso list to hunt? Which compares a woman to a fleeing deer trying to evade q hunter but the hind has alreadt been claimed by one with a higher power. Noli me tangere appears in the Gospel according to John where Jesus asks not to be touched as He has not yet ascended to Heaven. following the cruxifition.

Anne never used it herself though it is a quoted frequently used about her early relationship with Henry and her other suitors of that period.

It's always bunnies.

March 6, 2014
4:44 pm
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Gio
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In Italy Jesus attributed words ‘Noli me tangere’ have lost their original meaning and are commonly used for women who are pickly, prideful, haughty and arrogant and not shy and modest as the words ‘Don’t touch me’ should mean.
A ‘Noli me tangere’ woman is the one who looks like a ‘i-do-not-give-her-away-to-anybody’ if you understand what I mean.
Which is the meaning when attributed to Anne ?

March 7, 2014
2:23 am
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Anyanka
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IMO, the Wyatt peom refers to Anne as being not only the victim of several huters but that only one (Ceasar aka Henry) has the right to gain the prized possession of the hind (Anne) by virtue not of his prowess only but by his position as king.

IIRC, there are several later peoms by Wyatt which rather crudely refer to advancing your family by pimping out your women-folkto be the mistress of the powerful elite.

It's always bunnies.

March 7, 2014
10:59 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

O/T…It was called Amok Time and Spock went to Pon Farr and had to mate with his Arranged Bride…errr…why is every-one looking at me….

What’s realy sad is that I can quote most of the Orginal Series shows by heart..

Nowt wrong with being a Trekky Anyanka they all good.Laugh

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 7, 2014
12:49 pm
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Boleyn
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I think Lard Arse viewed Wyatt as a serious rival for Anne’s affections. Am I right in thinking that Wyatt alledgely stole a jewelled tablet that Anne used to have hanging from her waist on a chain and even when she asked him to return it he wouldn’t?
If I am right Lard arse was none too pleased that Wyatt had something that belonged to Anne when he had nothing from her, despite him giving her many little trinkets.
I have read some of Wyatt’s poems and to be honest I actually don’t like them much. If as some believe they are directed towards Anne it seems as if he is being very spiteful and bitter towards her, and yet he professes he loves her etc. It could just be me that seeing them in that light.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 7, 2014
4:22 pm
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Sharon
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I agree with Anyanka. I think ‘Noli me tangere’, means, ‘Don’t touch me,’ in this case. The next line is, “For Caesar’s I am.”

http://www.poetryfoundation.or…..oem/174862

Thomas had snatched a jewel hanging by a lace out of Anne’s pocket. He wore it about his neck. Henry had a ring of hers that he wore on his little finger. During the game, Henry pointed with his little finger saying, “Wyatt, I tell thee it is mine.” Wyatt brought out the jewel and used it to measure the distance and have a little fun at Henry’s expense. He asked the king if he could measure the distance with the ribbon, he was sure it was his. Henry was not amused. He stalked off to confront Anne. Whether this really happened or not, it does give a little insight into Henry’s attitude toward Anne and to any man who thought to woo her. Shortly after this incident, Thomas volunteered to go Italy shortly after this. I think it was a smart move.

March 7, 2014
8:54 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

I agree with Anyanka. I think ‘Noli me tangere’, means, ‘Don’t touch me,’ in this case. The next line is, “For Caesar’s I am.”

http://www.poetryfoundation.or…..oem/174862

Thomas had snatched a jewel hanging by a lace out of Anne’s pocket. He wore it about his neck. Henry had a ring of hers that he wore on his little finger. During the game, Henry pointed with his little finger saying, “Wyatt, I tell thee it is mine.” Wyatt brought out the jewel and used it to measure the distance and have a little fun at Henry’s expense. He asked the king if he could measure the distance with the ribbon, he was sure it was his. Henry was not amused. He stalked off to confront Anne. Whether this really happened or not, it does give a little insight into Henry’s attitude toward Anne and to any man who thought to woo her. Shortly after this incident, Thomas volunteered to go Italy shortly after this. I think it was a smart move.

It does seems as if Lard Arse was very jealous of Anne, or should I say jealous of the attention Anne was getting from other men right from the start. Very silly really considering that he was in no position to claim her as his anyway if that makes sence. Equally so neither was Wyatt. The Tablet/ring incident I actually find quite funny in a way (if indeed it happened) The tablet on the long ribbon is kind of saying that where the tablet reached down Anne’s body is something that Wyatt had desired. Ie he wanted her body. Where as Lard Arse only got a little finger of his desire.
It’s quite possible that Wyatt realised the dangerous game he was playing when he saw how Lard Arse reacted.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 8, 2014
7:58 am
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Gio
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Wish to remember today all women who fought for women rights, all innocent women killed by their husbands, like Anne, and all women who are still suffering just for being women.
Last year in Italy 128 women, one every 2 days, have been murdered by their husbands or partners, in the name of ‘’love’’.

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