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Why wasn't Elizabeth 1st forced to have a child...
March 5, 2012
12:48 pm
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Boleyn
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This was a topic of conversation brought up on the Elizabeth Files, by a lady called Noemi, back last year..
I actually thought that it may be something else for us to bite our teeth into for a change..
I feel that it is only right for me to put in Noemi’s original Question and Claire’s response for all of those who haven’t seen it before, so they can get some sort of idea to what I feel about this question..
Noemi
I love reading the English Monarchs history. I’m not British but I think that I may have been British in my previous life because since I was 5, I”ve been very interested and fascinated for it.

There’s something about Elizabeth and the Tudors that I don’t “understand”. Henry VIII got married six times because he wanted to produce a male heir. He was crazy about this matter.

The thing is that there is no logical coincidence between his behaviour and the behaviour of Elizabeth I in connection with the marriage issues.

Why wasn’t she urged to get married and produce an heir in the same way that his father was ?

What kind of political weave was sorrounded him and her for taking both decisions?

As a matter of facts, I don’t believe that was Ann Boleyn who made Henry divorce of Catherine of Aragon “for an apasionate love for Ann”. I think that women were used by men for their own purposes. In this case to carry on a tremendous reformation which left the pope out of the picture (this crucial determination that changed the course of the world just for the love of a woman???. Please give me a break.. I don’t think so)

In the same way I believe that Elizabeth was put in the throne by the economics interests of the men who were carrying on the reformation of the church, reformation that not only implied changing the way of thinking about religion, but also and more important to obtain the control of the lands and the wealth of the church (that were in hands of the pope)

This was a calculate process and I don’t think that a woman (Elizabeth) could have taken or made the choice of not getting marry by her own means, by herself. I think that the “not married Elizabeth” thing, had an intention in History that I expect you help me to discover.

I don’t think that Elizabeth by herself had been allowed to decide the heirness of Britain. All what it’s said about that she was the one who decided not to marry, couldn’t be true (just because she was a woman in an age dominated by men and in addition to this the separation of the church was not a minor issue for the world.)

Besides , we all know that when Henry died, the entourage got the power and that Edward (even being a future man )was just a puppet in the hands of the entourage that surrounded the court. I mean, it was not the king (Edward) who was ruling the country. It was his uncle Seymour.

So my question is: What kind of economical, powerful interests were behind the “Elizabeth don’t want to marry” thing?

What economical interests took advantage of this decision and its consecuenses: that Elizabeth would never produce an heir??

I am just an amateur and I am not British, may be that is the reason why I don’t understand many things about what a King mean by his people. In my country there are no kings. But I would love that one of you answer my questions.

I love to research about the History of England.

Regards all of you

Noemi

Claire’s reply to Noemi
Hi Noemí,

Welcome to the Elizabeth Files and the forum!

Elizabeth was under immense pressure to marry and produce an heir. All through her reign, until she became too old, her council urged her to marry, Parliament petitioned her to marry but she chose not to do so. Elizabeth did actually enter marriage negotiations on quite a few occasions but never went through with the marriage. I think the closest she came to marrying was François, Duke of Anjou and Alençon, the man she called her “frog” – see http://www.elizabethfiles.com/…..ture/3873/. As I say in that article:-

“Elizabeth had to put her country first and there was widespread
opposition to the French suit, putting her popularity and throne in
jeopardy. One Norfolk man, John Stubbs, even went as far as to publish a
pamphlet entitled “The Discovery of a Gaping Gulf whereby England is
like to be swallowed by another French marriage, if the Lord forbid not
the banns by letting Her Majesty see the sin and punishment thereof.”
The pamphlet was widely circulated and although Elizabeth issued a
proclamation against it, burned all copies of it and had Stubbs and his
publisher punished by getting an executioner to chop off their right
hands, she could quell the opposition to her proposed marriage.Elizabeth knew in her heart that she could never marry the Duke but she kept negotiations going just to keep France on her side.”

Elizabeth was in a catch 22 situation, a no-win situation – she was expected to marry and carry on the Tudor line but she felt that she couldn’t. She had seen the damage that a foreign match had done to her sister’s reign, she was in the tricky position that a Tudor woman should be submissive to her husband yet she was the monarch, and who could she marry? The idea of a potential marriage between her and Dudley had been ruined by the scandal over the death of his wife, Amy Robsart, plus he was from a family of traitors; and there were problems of politics and religion with a foreign match. I think Elizabeth was sensible in choosing not to marry and putting her country first, which also allowed her to play countries off against each other as she entered marriage negotiations. By not marrying, Elizabeth was able to keep control of her country, keep the support of her people and keep everyone happy (her council and other countries).

See also http://www.elizabethfiles.com/…..arry/4451/ and http://history.hanover.edu/hhr…..r94_2.html, an article on the issue by Katherine E Culbertson
I do agree with you that women were not powerful in Tudor England but Elizabeth was Queen, she was God’s appointed monarch and although she was expected to listen to the advice of her council and Parliament, she made the final decision on marriage. Obviously it was tough decision because no marriage meant no heir, but if she had no issue then she could choose her heir and that is what her council put pressure on her to do when it was clear that she was not going to marry.
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Boleyn Said:
I think a lot of Elizabeth’s whole attitude towards marriage comes a great deal from her childhood, being that she wasn’t quite 3 when her mother was executed I don’t think played a key role in her aversion toward marriage, although she must have been aware that something was very different either before or after her mother’s execution, as Lady Bryan went to wake her in the morning as usual and addressed her as Lady Elizabeth, and not Princess Elizabeth. Elizabeth was a very intelligent and forward thinking child even at that age and asked Lady Bryan why she was Lady Elizabeth today when she was Princess Elizabeth yesterday. Who actually told Elizabeth that her mother was dead? and did that person also tell Elizabeth just how her mother had died? If so Elizabeth must have adapted extremely quickly in knowing how not to provoke her father’s wrath. I think the real turning point towards the whole idea of marriage was Katherine Howard’s death. I don’t think she was actually at Hampton Court, when poor Kate was dragged away by her guards when she made a last ditch attempt at pleading with Henry for her life, but I’m sure she must have heard an account of the Chinese Whispers from court from Kat Ashley who had possibly tacked a little bit on just for good measure, even so I think even if she didn’t know about how K.H had been disgraced and died, I think she would have had the same attitude toward marriage. She was said to have remarked at the age of 9 that ” All marriage means death and I will never marry.”

Even without all this I actually feel the whole point about not wanting marriage/children was firmly hammered home in Elizabeth’s mind, was when she lived in K.P’s household after the death of her father.. I believe she was possibly attracted to Thomas Seymour, but more from the standpoint of a teenage crush, and also from the point that she could see just how powerful an attraction she held over men, in short she was a born flurt, something perhaps that she had seen K.H had. Unfortuatly Thomas Seymour was a rogue and only saw Elizabeth as a way of getting power, I actually believe that Thomas had tried to rape Elizabeth at one point and was only just stopped in time by Kat Ashley, who perhaps saw these so called innocent romps as Thomas called them for what they actually were.
Elizabeth also believed that she was sterile or as she called herself a barren stock, I can sort of understand why she would think that, given that medicine was a reletively unknown area and woman infetility and periods etc, was a grey area, where doctor’s were concerned, Elizabeth’s periods were we are told, were irregular or should I say not the excepted norm of the way these things happened back then, in short a woman was either pregnant or not pregnant, however Elizabeth wasn’t on her own here as Mary’s periods were also know to be erractic and irregular too, given the amount of stress they must have both been under at one time or another you can understand it.
However a new theory (well maybe new to some of you but not to me i’ve know the rumour for donkey’s years) Elizabeth actually did conceive and bear a child at a very young age, another reason put about by some to try and Elizabeth barreness.. It certainly would explain a few things, I’v e read somewhere that the council under her brother had actually made enquiries about a midwife who had attended a young girl in labour but the young girl had kept her face covered during the whole labour, but the midwife said that the girl had a shock of bright red hair. I think the council saw the whole thing for what it was a complete fabrication. However it may have been true. If Elizabeth did have a child it would have certainly been Seymour’s child, and due to her age that may have been the reason to why she became barren. Margaret Beaufort (mother of Henry 7th) was only about 12 or 13 when she had him, and due to the difficult birth of him she was unable to have any further children, maybe the same could be said of Elizabeth too. Either way this supposed child either died at birth or in childhood as so many children did in those days. Rumour also has it that Francis Bacon was her son.
Anyway I don’t think she did have a child, and until proved otherwise I’m shutting up.
Elizabeth also knew the whole disaster her sister Mary made of her marriage, Philip clearly didn’t love Mary although she was besotted with him, for him England was just another money bank, and if it meant having to marry it’s Queen to get his hands on the loot then so be it.
After Mary died and Elizabeth came to the throne I rather think that Philip fancied his chances with Elizabeth too but again from a money standpoint. Elizabeth being protestent held no attraction for him and even if she had been Catholic she wouldn’t have done either.
Elizabeth’s only really loved one man, and that was Robert Dudley, would she had married him if he had been free? No I don’t think so. Elizabeth was free spirit, and enjoyed the thrill of the chase like her father before her, but unlike him she didn’t want to have conquests or notches on her bedpost she just wanted to have love affairs without all the ties. I know she made many a married woman jealous when she made love (loosely worded) to their husbands. The only thing I really can’t get is why Elizabeth blew her top when she found out that Robert Dudley had married Lettice Knollys, I actually would have thought she would have been pleased as she was always flirting with those courtiers who were married, and therefore making them and herself unobtainable, in short safe. With Robert Dudley single there was always the chance he would try to take advantage of her, as in the case of Bothwell and Mary QOS, he was allegely supposed to have raped her, she was then throw into a situation where she had to marry him or be called a whore, or as the Scots called her a Mermaid, she was called a whore anyway so it wouldn’t have made any difference if she hadn’t have married Bothwell.
As for forcing Elizabeth to marry and have a child, no one could actually force her to do that. Her council certainly tried to intimidate and bully her into marriage, but she wanted none of it, and at one point was so sick to death of them harping on about it, turned round and put rather coarsely, “If I had been born crested and not cloven you wouldn’t dare talk to me like this”, they shut up about marriage for a little while.
I think when she got older and all of her freinds from her youth had either died or left court she was starting to feel a little lonely, and perhaps may have married if only for the company of a man, but she also knew that whoever she chose there would be concequences to be dealt with, from whatever faction was against her choice of a husband at the time. I also think that the death of her favourite Robert Dudley also played a major part in her death, although she had the triumph over the Spanish Armada that paled into insignifiance when Robert died. Yes his stepson helped soften the blow a little but she never ever got over it. Devereux’s hurt her but she had been slowly dying since 1588, and when she did die in March of 1603 I’m sure that her last thoughts were of Robert Dudley.
Elizabeth left England safe and properus.
Well there you are folks best you all go and lie down and take some Aspirin, and then try to submit your viewpoints. I look forward to reading them..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 7, 2012
1:51 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn, Okay, I’ve taken my aspirin and had a good night’s sleep. Hope this makes sense.
Elizabeth, from a very young age, saw what devastating turns marriage could take. I don’t know when she learned about her mother’s death. Obviously someone told her about her mother, and Elizabeth held her close to heart her whole life. I think Kat Ashley and Blanche Perry may have told her. Later, I think Catherine Carey may have told her what she knew of Anne.
She saw her father go through one disastrous marriage after another. She knew her father’s wives (KOA and Anne) had many miscarriages. She knew it was important to her father to have a son. Erego, Mary and her were worth little to him. I don’t think that can be brushed off. Elizabeth must have felt she was as good as any man, so why would her father dismiss her because she was female. It must have affected her and her opinion of marrying to produce males.
Jane died in childbirth, but was praised to the heavens for having a son. Well great, but why take the chance of getting married and giving birth if you are not going to be around to see your son grow? By the time Katherine Howard came and went, Elizabeth had already made up her mind not to marry, and who can blame her? Katherine Parr’s death must have cemented that belief. As if that wasn’t enough, Elizabeth watched as her sister went through hell thinking she was pregnant twice. Mary wanted to please Phillip so much by giving him a son and it never happened.
I don’t think Elizabeth saw much sense in having babies just to please men.
Elizabeth did not want to be ruled by a man. Period. She felt that she could rule her country and she did not need a man to rule or overule her. She was done with being told what to do and how to act. She would marry England.
Thomas Seymour…lesson learned and learned well. Don’t play with a playboy who wants you only for what you will bring him. A possible crown. This was a big lesson for Elizabeth. She learned how to flirt without getting caught in a trap. I think Katherine sent her away for her own good, not for any anger she may have felt. She reserved that for Thomas. Elizabeth never saw that dear lady again. That must have hurt her terribly. I’m sure Elizabeth would have liked to have been by Katherine’s side when she had her child. She woud have been if not for Thomas’ antics.
Then there is Robin. I think she loved him, but she would not marry him. She was well past marrying anyone. She trusted him above others. When he married Lettice, she was angry for a bit, but she needed him. He was never far from her side. There were times when Cecil was beside himself because he couldn’t talk her into doing something and Robin would talk to her and calm her fears. When he died, she was heartbroken. Although she lived for 15 more years, I think they were empty years for her. She made so many excuses for Essex. She did that because he was Robin’s stepson, and he may have kept her feeling young. I never got that relationship. She should have kept in mind he was Lettice’s son.
She also had warm feelings for Alencon, but when it came right down to it, she wouldn’t marry him either. This woman was going to stay Queen in her own right. She had learned her life lessons and she lived by them. She had made up her mind when she was very young that she would never marry anyone. Personally I don’t think there was a man alive at that time who was her equal.

March 8, 2012
8:21 am
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Boleyn
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LOL Sharon you’re a nutcase..
Some very valid points raised here. I think I need an aspirin too..
I think Robert Dudley was a sort of crutch for Elizabeth, perhaps in the sence that he was the last part of her childhood. He understood her better than anyone else. Understood why she chose not to marry etc, whereas although she was close to Kat Ashley, Kat perhaps couldn’t understand why Elizabeth would not want to marry and have children as was the expected norm of woman and more so Queens.
As you say she didn’t want to share her throne or thunder with anyone else, she was very independant, and I agree. It was Elizabeth’s Kingdom ruled solely by Elizabeth and she didn’t want or need any man to tell her what to do or try and lord it over her.
I read somewhere many years ago that Elizabeth was born an hermathodite? I don’t believe that, but there again it may well have been true, certainly she was very tomboyish, and did things that woman weren’t usually expected to do. I never heard of Mary spending time in the Archery butts or going hunting practically all day etc. Elizabeth wasn’t a Queen to sit by the fire all day sewing, painting, reading books on saint’s lives or praying.
She also went to every council meeting and was very vocal in these meetings when something was proposed that she didn’t like. In the Elizabeth Series of the 70’s when she learned she’s become Queen she said to Cecil that he was to be her workday dress and she meant to work him hard. Elizabeth did just that, they must have been shipping in willow bark by the crate load for Cecil to chew apon when Elizabeth had put him through the wringer on his proposed policies.
I think you are right there was no Prince/King who was her equal, she surpassed them all. I believe at one point even Ivan the Terrible was thinking of asking her to marry him. Now there would be a story. Elizabeth certainly had something that no other Queen has had since. Victoria perhaps came close, but not quite enough to get a cigar. Elizabeth I think, like her mother was a modern woman in a medievel world, and would have fitted in brilliantly in today’s world.
Would Anne and Elizabeth actually got on if Anne had lived? Now there another question to tax everyone’s brains.. Aspirins on stand by.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 8, 2012
12:35 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn,
I’ve heard that rumor of Elizabeth, but I don’t buy it. It seems to me that her enemies said that about her because she wouldn’t conform and be the woman they thought she should be. Back then there had to be something wrong with a woman who enjoyed men’s sports and could beat them at their game. There was something wrong with a woman who spoke her own mind. There was something very wrong with a woman who didn’t want to marry and have tons of babies. And there was something wrong with a woman who did not want to be ruled by men. She couldn’t have been a normal woman. So they made up a rumor that she was a hermaphrodite. Men!
No kidding…Ivan The Terrible? Now that I cannot imagine. Didn’t a pope say something to the effect that the two of them would have been remarkable together under different circumstances? That sends a chill down my spine. Is this the same pope who said she was fair game and that anyone could assasinate her and they would get dispensation for the act, or was that another pope?

March 8, 2012
12:42 pm
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Louise
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I love hermaphrodites. Whatever anyone may think about them they can always go it alone.

March 8, 2012
1:18 pm
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Sharon
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Louise said

I love hermaphrodites. Whatever anyone may think about them they can always go it alone.

You went and had that drink, didn’t you?

March 8, 2012
1:22 pm
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Louise
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I made it a double. xx

March 8, 2012
3:05 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Boleyn,
I’ve heard that rumor of Elizabeth, but I don’t buy it. It seems to me that her enemies said that about her because she wouldn’t conform and be the woman they thought she should be. Back then there had to be something wrong with a woman who enjoyed men’s sports and could beat them at their game. There was something wrong with a woman who spoke her own mind. There was something very wrong with a woman who didn’t want to marry and have tons of babies. And there was something wrong with a woman who did not want to be ruled by men. She couldn’t have been a normal woman. So they made up a rumor that she was a hermaphrodite. Men!
No kidding…Ivan The Terrible? Now that I cannot imagine. Didn’t a pope say something to the effect that the two of them would have been remarkable together under different circumstances? That sends a chill down my spine. Is this the same pope who said she was fair game and that anyone could assasinate her and they would get dispensation for the act, or was that another pope?

Yeah with you on this one. I don’t believe Elizabeth was a hermathodite either. I think it’s quite possible that Mary QOS started that rumour, or at least someone in her circle of freinds. Elizabeth had the body of a woman and mind and actions of a man, Which I believe came from her father as she tried to copy him the best she could hope that makes sence.
Quoting from the Elizabeth series of the 70’s.. I may not be a lion, but I am a lion’s cub. and that I feel sums up Elizabeth perfectly. She meant to rule as a man and no one could touch her.
Yep Ivan the terrible had plans to marry her, and I think sent an envoy over to check out the situation, guess he didn’t like what he found. Elizabeth was too flighty and perhaps stubborn to be of use to Ivan, who as we know killed wives willy nilly, if they displeased him.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 8, 2012
3:06 pm
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Anyanka
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Sharon said

No kidding…Ivan The Terrible? Now that I cannot imagine. Didn’t a pope say something to the effect that the two of them would have been remarkable together under different circumstances? That sends a chill down my spine. Is this the same pope who said she was fair game and that anyone could assasinate her and they would get dispensation for the act, or was that another pope?

I doubt anything would have come of it.2 totally different versions of Christainity.

It's always bunnies.

March 8, 2012
3:39 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka. I agree, and then of course the question of how they would actually meet one another, both of them ruled a country and neither of them could afford to leave their country’s even for a short break, so their marriage would have been completely by proxy. Even if the wanted to marry one another.
I think you could say the whole thing was a storm in a teacup affair.
Nope Elizabeth meant to rule England and England was hers to command, and obey. She would have never married Ivan even if she had the heart to marry. The only person in my opinion that she would have even consider to marry was Robert Dudley. He was her one true love.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 8, 2012
7:55 pm
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Anyanka
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IMHO,

Elizabeth spent her early years in semi-seclusion with just the company of her household. There would have been gossip about her mother’s behaviour…let’s face it it was a very juicy story. It would have fueled the gossip mills for a long time.

Like it or not Elizabeth would have heard the worst of her mother from her servants. Then she saw how her first stepmother died after giving a son to Henry. Then her second stepmother was humilated and dumped.

Then her 3rd stepmother was found guilty of the same crimes as her cousin. And all the gossip would be re-racked and embellished.

Then came the 4th stepmother who brougt forth a measure of stability of Henry’s family. Elizabeth bloomed in the hot-house of KP’s studious household.

Following the deasth of her father and KP’s rapid remarriage when Elizabeth was entering puberty….That’s when the whole marriage= death came into play. First off, the new father figure started to flirt and engage Elizabeth’s want of male/paternal approval. Then as the point no return.

Somehow Thomas Seymour broached the confidence placed in him, leaving Elizabeth adrift again. KP dies after child-birth. Elizabeth sees how unbridled ambition leads to the scaffold for both of the Seymour brothers .

Then another cousin is swept up in her family’s ambition and loses her head along with her husband for challenging the law of succession.

She sees her sister Mary fall in unrequited love with her husband who’s using her to gain access to England’s army and money. She sees again how being pregnant does spare you from a husband’s wondering eye.

It’s no wonder by the time Elizabeth is queen , she chooses a man who she can’t marry as her beau. Firstly he’s married and then the death of Amy Robsert places Dudley in a place where he can’t marry Elizabeth without compromising her throne.

She can then spend her days playing with her suitors without any emotional context. She’s well aware of her value as a royal bride. Her throne makes her a desirable woman to any man with ambition one either a global or local level. With her emotions contained , she is safe from presenting England with a foreign king who wants to use it as a moneymachine or from an Englishman how may npt understand the concept of kingship and run the country into the ground while Elizabeth is secluted in the birthchamber….

It's always bunnies.

March 9, 2012
10:29 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

IMHO,

Elizabeth spent her early years in semi-seclusion with just the company of her household. There would have been gossip about her mother’s behaviour…let’s face it it was a very juicy story. It would have fueled the gossip mills for a long time.

Like it or not Elizabeth would have heard the worst of her mother from her servants. Then she saw how her first stepmother died after giving a son to Henry. Then her second stepmother was humilated and dumped.

Then her 3rd stepmother was found guilty of the same crimes as her cousin. And all the gossip would be re-racked and embellished.

Then came the 4th stepmother who brougt forth a measure of stability of Henry’s family. Elizabeth bloomed in the hot-house of KP’s studious household.

Following the deasth of her father and KP’s rapid remarriage when Elizabeth was entering puberty….That’s when the whole marriage= death came into play. First off, the new father figure started to flirt and engage Elizabeth’s want of male/paternal approval. Then as the point no return.

Somehow Thomas Seymour broached the confidence placed in him, leaving Elizabeth adrift again. KP dies after child-birth. Elizabeth sees how unbridled ambition leads to the scaffold for both of the Seymour brothers .

Then another cousin is swept up in her family’s ambition and loses her head along with her husband for challenging the law of succession.

She sees her sister Mary fall in unrequited love with her husband who’s using her to gain access to England’s army and money. She sees again how being pregnant does spare you from a husband’s wondering eye.

It’s no wonder by the time Elizabeth is queen , she chooses a man who she can’t marry as her beau. Firstly he’s married and then the death of Amy Robsert places Dudley in a place where he can’t marry Elizabeth without compromising her throne.

She can then spend her days playing with her suitors without any emotional context. She’s well aware of her value as a royal bride. Her throne makes her a desirable woman to any man with ambition one either a global or local level. With her emotions contained , she is safe from presenting England with a foreign king who wants to use it as a moneymachine or from an Englishman how may npt understand the concept of kingship and run the country into the ground while Elizabeth is secluted in the birthchamber….

Yeah once again some good points raised. I certainly believe that the versions Elizabeth would have got about her mother’s disgrace and downfall etc, would certainly have been added to etc. And yet Elizabeth still must have loved her mother or why would she carry a picture of her?
Even when she made her procession through London, when she became Queen there were pictures of Henry and Anne everywhere, a little like the teatowels and flags that were hung outside on peoples house when old jug ears (Charles) and Di got married.
As for the whole marriage deal I think she knew what a disaster it would be if she married anyone, England to any forgien prince would just be a bank, and the Queen although she was Queen of the isle, would be someone to abuse and control to their own desire, and to hell with the people. I hope that makes sence and you can get what i’m tryingto say.
The whole point about not wanting to marry was hammered home when Mary QOS married Henry Darnley. Who I believe was put forward at one point by his mother as a possible suitor for Elizabeth’s hand, when that tactic failed his mum sent him off up to Scotland, where we know what happened. Elizabeth was no fool she could read men like a book and knew exactly what Darnley was. Shallow, uncouth, a braggart, a drunk, and simply not fit to be anything more than Lord Darnley. Mary QOS didn’t have Elizabeth’s sence or reason, and that was one of the reason to why she made such a complete Dog’s breakfast of ruling Scotland, Henry Darnley being one of her many mistakes. Elizabeth actually learned a lot from the mistakes of others. Her father’s disasterous love life, Her brother’s domination of him by his councillors, and Mary’s laughable sham of a marriage, and her persecution of people who didn’t follow her faith. It was said of Mary, that when ever someone entered the Tower acussed of being a herotic even if the recanted or were proved innocent they rarely left the Tower alive. We know that Bloody Mary burned many people, but I wonder just how many people actually died within the tower after being tortured by her minions. Bishop Bonner was far more bloody towards herotics after Gardiner died. Bishop Bonner was known as the Devils Dancing Bear. He was actually quite active in trying to get Elizabeth executed shortly before Mary died. When Mary died he offered his services to Elizabeth, you can guess her answer, and I think they both started and ended in F. Bishop Bonner was inprisoned by Elizabeth and died insane in the Marchselsea I can only presume it means the prison in 1569.
Elizabeth must have had an extremely high IQ as she sussed people out just by looking at them. Boy was she one hell of a woman. I think that both Anne and Henry would have been blow away by her intelligence.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 9, 2012
1:24 pm
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Maggyann
Nottingham
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Elizabeth was a bright child, an astute young lady and a wise woman in her maturity. She was the last of the Tudors and knew it. She could look back over the reign of the house of Tudor and see it with all its flaws as well as highs.
Her grandfather had won the crown in battle then spent the rest of his life trying to secure things for a perceived Tudor dynasty. History would show him to be the usurper.
Her father had ruined lives in his pursuit of the same thing and that included in many ways his own life too. Almost every action he took was centred around his need for an heir, the notion of a Tudor dynasty. History would remember him as a wife devouring, bad tempered, murdering monster.
Her brother had been led by the nose by his ‘guardians’ then died leaving hardly a mark on his page in Tudor history. History would remember him as the boy king whose dog was killed by Thomas Seymour.
He was followed by her ‘sort of cousin’ Jane who ended up dead for her pains. She had Tudor blood but only slightly – historically the nine day queen.
Then Elizabeth’s half-sister took the throne, married a Spaniard, burnt and executed numerous people in the name of religion, was hated by the people of the country and historically added the title Bloody to the Tudor history story. Bloody Mary
Elizabeth stepped up to the mark a Tudor but in many ways I don’t think it was necessarily something she had great pride in. She was glad and proud to be sovereign I am sure but she was not dynastically bent. Forward thinking and with her share of Tudor self-assurance in bucket loads she knew her family name was probably not going to be ‘golden’ in the pages of history to come. She was a Tudor and if she became the last of the Tudors she had the opportunity to change the possible ending of the story for the short lived dynasty. I think that is what she set out to do. She intended from the start to be the greatest of the Tudors. She would outdo her predecessors and at the same time ensure there would be no followers, no-one to take away from her pages in the history books. I think Elizabeth deliberately ended the Tudor dynasty, quite coldly and with great calculation.
She succeeded admirably and history has shown she was not only the greatest of the Tudors but one of the greatest monarchs this country has had.

Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60

March 9, 2012
5:34 pm
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Mya Elise
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I think Elizabeth was pressured by alot of people to get married and have children, people probably reminded her about it everyday. But Elizabeth wasn’t someone that did stuff just because people told her to or wanted her to, she did what she wanted and did what she thought was best. I think after seeing all the problems that come with marriage and the difficult hassle it is to have children Elizabeth just didn’t want those responsibilites and everything. Also she probably saw how Henry treated his wives and thought ‘I don’t want to be treated like that and end up like that’.
She was a very smart woman and is such an admirable monarch that I can’t imagine her being different than what she was, I think she was perfectly happy without marriage and children.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

March 10, 2012
7:54 am
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Boleyn
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Maggyann
Jane the 9 days Queen was Edward’s Second cousin. Her mother being the daughter of Henry’s sister Mary Rose. As the succesion stood when Henry finally got his finger out in 1543 the act of succesion went like this. Edward, and his desendents if none Mary and her desendents, if none Elizabeth and her decendents, if none the throne would go to the children of his sister Mary Rose and their desendents, so it could be argued, that in fact the son of Catherine Grey who married Edward Seymour should have been King, but due to the impetuous nature of the Duke of Northumberland they Grey line was completely annailated, and I think it was Mary Tudor that completely dissolved them of any right to the throne, after the Nine Days Queen’s fiasco, although Catherine fell into disgrace during Elizabeth’s reign so she may have also completly anilliated their right to the throne too. Whoever was responsible they were finished by either Queen from succeeding.
Cold Comfort.
Elizabeth made a very difficult decision in choosing not to marry or have children, and I often wonder if perhaps she regretted it?
But again she wanted the people to see her as more than just a wife and baby making machine she wanted the attention and the adoration, of the people and boy did she get it.
I would like to know what she was thinking about when she was standing for 19 hours and for all time she was sat on the floor. Was she thinking about her father and all the mistakes he made? and perhaps comparing them with what she had done? was she thinking of Robert Dudley?
or her sister and brother? I rather think she wondering how England would cope without her, after all most of the people had only known her as Queen and it would be a big blow to them to not have her there anymore. Was she thinking of James and if James would bear a grugde against her for chopping off his mother’s head? A grudge that he would take out on her people? Was James suitable to take over her throne? Or perhaps she was thinking of her mother, and how much she wished her mother was still with her or even Kat Ashley? I think it was perhaps a bit of Robert Dudley and Anne, I think of all the light loves that Elizabeth had in her life she truly loved her Mother and Robert Dudley. I would say she loved her father but really from the point of love from afar, and I think Henry himself probably felt the same. Elizabeth reminded him too much of Anne and perhaps also of the person he once was.
It’s strange to think though that Mary and Elizabeth despite their differences are actually buried together, you would have thought that even in death Elizabeth wouldn’t have wanted to share a grave with anyone and least of all her sister. if she had wanted to be close to anyone when she died it would have been either her mother or Robert Dudley. Perhaps she made a request for that to be so, perhaps her heart with Robert and her body near her Mother. But I rather think Cecil wanted to get James safely on the throne and Crowned before the usual parasites came crawling out of the woodwork claiming the throne of England. By the way I heard a rumour sometime back that Philip who was married to Mary T, tried or said that his daughter Isabella had a right to the throne of England. How? I would understand it if he had been crowned but even then it would have been very unlikely that she would have got the throne. The only possible claiments if James hadn’t have been King would have been Edward Seymour son of Catherine Grey, or perhaps one of the Howard line. Purely speculation but intriquing to think about none the less.
Just who would have ruled if James hadn”t and how different would things be now? Would we have our Queen Elizabeth now? A good one don’t you think?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 10, 2012
10:56 am
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Anyanka
La Belle Province
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[genelogy nerd] first cousins once removed since thier common ancestors were Edward and his sister’s paternal grandparents. Mary of Scotland was likewise their first cousin once removed.

Jane and Mary were second cousins since their common ancestor was thier great grandparents. [/gn]

It's always bunnies.

March 10, 2012
4:35 pm
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Bill1978
Australia
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And even with the leap frogging over the Grey Sisters’ lineage to put James on the throne, with the current Prince William marrying Catherine Middleton, Henry’s Act Of Succession has been finally fullfilled as the Middleton’s are descended from the Grey line or is it the current Queen desecended from the Grey line, it’s Sunday morning so its easy to get confused.. So even if someone wanted to argue that they were the rightful heir to the throne, in theory the government just needs to pull out Henry’s Act Of Succession and say I don’t think so. LOL Of course I know if that were to happen I’m sure there would be other people with a stronger claim to the throne, but it is interesting that after all these years Henry’s request for the throne to go the family of his younger sister has finally come to fruition.

Just who would have ruled if James hadn”t and how different would things be now? Would we have our Queen Elizabeth now? A good one don’t you think?

If for some reason James had rejected the offer to rule England or Elizabeth or the council thought he was no good, I guess they would have had to had followed Henry’s Act Of Succesion and passed in to the Grey Family as that was law, its what allowed Mary I to have a stronger claim than Jane I.

March 11, 2012
11:52 am
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Boleyn
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Bill1978 said

And even with the leap frogging over the Grey Sisters’ lineage to put James on the throne, with the current Prince William marrying Catherine Middleton, Henry’s Act Of Succession has been finally fullfilled as the Middleton’s are descended from the Grey line or is it the current Queen desecended from the Grey line, it’s Sunday morning so its easy to get confused.. So even if someone wanted to argue that they were the rightful heir to the throne, in theory the government just needs to pull out Henry’s Act Of Succession and say I don’t think so. LOL Of course I know if that were to happen I’m sure there would be other people with a stronger claim to the throne, but it is interesting that after all these years Henry’s request for the throne to go the family of his younger sister has finally come to fruition.

Just who would have ruled if James hadn”t and how different would things be now? Would we have our Queen Elizabeth now? A good one don’t you think?

If for some reason James had rejected the offer to rule England or Elizabeth or the council thought he was no good, I guess they would have had to had followed Henry’s Act Of Succesion and passed in to the Grey Family as that was law, its what allowed Mary I to have a stronger claim than Jane I.

Actually Bill I’d completely forgotten about that one. Yes Our Kate is related somewhere with X amount of removes to the Tudor line, as again is our William, with X amount of removes. Our William comes down in descent from Margaret Tudor, and I think our Kate comes down in descent, from Mary Rose Tudor so you could say that Our kate and William are also related with again X amount of removes. Good one Bill..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 11, 2012
12:07 pm
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Boleyn
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I’ve just read up on the relationship between Our William and Kate. it appears they are 15th cousins. Makes the mind boggle.
By the way I call them Our William and Kate because from the time William was born every mother up and down the land has felt like William and Harry too have belonged to us, they are our sons too. As for Kate well she’s endeared herself so much to us that’s she feels like our daughter too.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 11, 2012
4:44 pm
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Anyanka
La Belle Province
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I was reading that Kate could be related to up 50 million Americans at various levels of cousinage. That’s approx one sixth of the USA population.

It's always bunnies.

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