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Why wasn't Elizabeth 1st forced to have a child...
March 12, 2012
1:34 am
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Bill1978
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The reason why Elizabeth I wasn’t forced to have a child was because she was a randy little thing and had at least 3 sons in secret. And each person who knew about the secret pregnancy then used that knowledge of the pregnancy to help position themselves to get the secret son to be named Elizabeth’s successor thus no need to force Elizabeth to publically have a child. And somehow all these secret sons is enough evidence to prove that William Shakespeare is not the author of all the plays, sonnets and poems attributed to him.

Yeah I just watched Anonymous over the weekend. Good movie, but bloody crazy conspiracy theory.

March 13, 2012
6:47 pm
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Mya Elise
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Bill1978 said

The reason why Elizabeth I wasn’t forced to have a child was because she was a randy little thing and had at least 3 sons in secret. And each person who knew about the secret pregnancy then used that knowledge of the pregnancy to help position themselves to get the secret son to be named Elizabeth’s successor thus no need to force Elizabeth to publically have a child. And somehow all these secret sons is enough evidence to prove that William Shakespeare is not the author of all the plays, sonnets and poems attributed to him.

Yeah I just watched Anonymous over the weekend. Good movie, but bloody crazy conspiracy theory.

Whaaaaaaat?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

March 13, 2012
6:54 pm
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Janet
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I really can’t imagine anyone forcing Elizabeth I to do anything she didn’t want to do. Wink

March 13, 2012
7:14 pm
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Anyanka
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me neither Janet. Though she could be a superb puppet-master when she wanted to be.

It's always bunnies.

March 14, 2012
4:24 am
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Bill1978
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Yeah I just watched Anonymous over the weekend. Good movie, but bloody crazy conspiracy theory.

Whaaaaaaat?

WARNING SPOILERS:

Are you sitting down, so you can absorbe it all in as it gets tricky. This is what I was able to work out and I had finished scratching my head.

Elizabeth fell pregnant after a rumble in the hay with Thomas Seymour. The result was Edward de Vere. Cecil Sr placed him in the care of the de Vere’s who had no idea that their foster child was the bastard child of a bastard princess. When the de Vere’s died, Edward went to live with the Cecils all in the grand scheme of marrying Edward to the Cecil’s daughter so when the time was right, Cecil would somehow manipulate Elizabeth into naming de Vere as her heir and thereby giving the crown to the Cecil family by proxy. Unfortunately things go pear shape when Elizabeth falls for Edward and has an incestous affair that results in Elizabeth falling pregnant. Edward initially has no idea that he has fathered a child to Elizabeth (or that he has slept with his own mother) cause Elizabeth goes on progress to hide her pregnancy. Edward finds out about the child after his wife (Cecil’s daughter) tells him when the wife catches him in bed with some harlot. The child grows up to be the Duke Of Southampton (hence why the fair youth of the sonnet is Southampton). de Vere grooms Southampton for the court and positions him to be a close ally with Duke Of Essex (Robert Deveraux of whatever). Turns out the Duke of Essex is also another bastard child of Elizabeth (but I have no idea how apart from he is apparently a dead ringer for Elizabeth, pretty sure they don’t say who fathered the man – maybe it was Robert Dudley). Not really sure who was going to be the heir to the throne between Essex and Southampton but I think it was going to be Essex for one reason or another and since SOuthampton was a good friend with Essex then he could influence Essex and give de Vere some power. All goes good until Cecil Jr spoils the plan and posions Elizabeth’s mind regarding Essex, plus Ben Johnson dobs on de Vere’s plans to help with Essex’s rebellion.

The whole Shakepeare thing is linked to Cecil Sr not being happy with de Vere’s obession with writing and how it will bring shame ot the Cecil household. So de Vere organises to get his work performed using Ben Johnson as the author. Johnson however balks at the subject matter and it is then than an opportunisitc, alcoholic, murderous, illiterate womaniser called Shakespeare claims authorship of the works that are designed to discredit the Cecil family, because the Cecil families have been out to ruin de Vere ever since de Vere slept with his own mother ruining the chance of de Vere becoming King and giving the Cecil the throne they have longed for all their lives. Everything in ‘Shakespere”s plays are about informing the public about how evil the Cecil’s are. Including making Richard III a hunchback to resemble Cecil Jr.

The love poem Venus and Adonis was actually written by de Vere to remind Elizabeth of their love affair and convince Elizabeth to meet and talk to de Vere. They do eventually meet after the Essex Rebellion, where de Vere pleas with Elizabeth to spare their child’s life. Up to this point Elizabeth had no idea SOuthampton was her son. de Vere wisely chooses to leave out the fact that he is also her son. Elizabeth agrees to spare their son’s life on one condition: that de Vere will never be known as the author of his plays and poems.

And I think I have that plot all correct, I may have got confused with some of them

As I said the movie is quite an enjoyable film, but my god it has to have one of the most complicated theories all designed to prove Shakespeare didn’t right his plays. Sometimes the simpliest solution is the right solution. LOL

March 14, 2012
6:16 am
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Boleyn
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Bill1978 said

Yeah I just watched Anonymous over the weekend. Good movie, but bloody crazy conspiracy theory.

Whaaaaaaat?

WARNING SPOILERS:

Are you sitting down, so you can absorbe it all in as it gets tricky. This is what I was able to work out and I had finished scratching my head.

Elizabeth fell pregnant after a rumble in the hay with Thomas Seymour. The result was Edward de Vere. Cecil Sr placed him in the care of the de Vere’s who had no idea that their foster child was the bastard child of a bastard princess. When the de Vere’s died, Edward went to live with the Cecils all in the grand scheme of marrying Edward to the Cecil’s daughter so when the time was right, Cecil would somehow manipulate Elizabeth into naming de Vere as her heir and thereby giving the crown to the Cecil family by proxy. Unfortunately things go pear shape when Elizabeth falls for Edward and has an incestous affair that results in Elizabeth falling pregnant. Edward initially has no idea that he has fathered a child to Elizabeth (or that he has slept with his own mother) cause Elizabeth goes on progress to hide her pregnancy. Edward finds out about the child after his wife (Cecil’s daughter) tells him when the wife catches him in bed with some harlot. The child grows up to be the Duke Of Southampton (hence why the fair youth of the sonnet is Southampton). de Vere grooms Southampton for the court and positions him to be a close ally with Duke Of Essex (Robert Deveraux of whatever). Turns out the Duke of Essex is also another bastard child of Elizabeth (but I have no idea how apart from he is apparently a dead ringer for Elizabeth, pretty sure they don’t say who fathered the man – maybe it was Robert Dudley). Not really sure who was going to be the heir to the throne between Essex and Southampton but I think it was going to be Essex for one reason or another and since SOuthampton was a good friend with Essex then he could influence Essex and give de Vere some power. All goes good until Cecil Jr spoils the plan and posions Elizabeth’s mind regarding Essex, plus Ben Johnson dobs on de Vere’s plans to help with Essex’s rebellion.

The whole Shakepeare thing is linked to Cecil Sr not being happy with de Vere’s obession with writing and how it will bring shame ot the Cecil household. So de Vere organises to get his work performed using Ben Johnson as the author. Johnson however balks at the subject matter and it is then than an opportunisitc, alcoholic, murderous, illiterate womaniser called Shakespeare claims authorship of the works that are designed to discredit the Cecil family, because the Cecil families have been out to ruin de Vere ever since de Vere slept with his own mother ruining the chance of de Vere becoming King and giving the Cecil the throne they have longed for all their lives. Everything in ‘Shakespere”s plays are about informing the public about how evil the Cecil’s are. Including making Richard III a hunchback to resemble Cecil Jr.

The love poem Venus and Adonis was actually written by de Vere to remind Elizabeth of their love affair and convince Elizabeth to meet and talk to de Vere. They do eventually meet after the Essex Rebellion, where de Vere pleas with Elizabeth to spare their child’s life. Up to this point Elizabeth had no idea SOuthampton was her son. de Vere wisely chooses to leave out the fact that he is also her son. Elizabeth agrees to spare their son’s life on one condition: that de Vere will never be known as the author of his plays and poems.

And I think I have that plot all correct, I may have got confused with some of them

As I said the movie is quite an enjoyable film, but my god it has to have one of the most complicated theories all designed to prove Shakespeare didn’t right his plays. Sometimes the simpliest solution is the right solution. LOL

Wow Bill you certainly know how to create a molatove cocktail don’t you? and there is just a slim chance you may well be right too, as I said in my O.P there was a rumour in Edward’s reign that Elizabeth bore a child, as a midwife was called to see to a young girl in advanced labour, who kept her face covered but the midwife said she had red hair. So who knows? As it goes I’d intended to throw a what if into the mix here as well so lets see if between us we can make Mya’s head and a few others go pop.
What if Elizabeth had married Robert Dudley in secret sometime at the beginning of her reign or late in Mary’s reign, but had made it clear to him that she would never make him King, but because she was his wife, he could of course have bedroom privilages? What if she did have children with him which were farmed out? They did have a very close and loving relationship as we know, it would certainly explain why she went a little ballistic at him when he had married Lettice, however due to the fact that their marriage was only between him, her and the bedpost, Elizabeth thought well only to be expected after all I won’t make him King so if the only way to keep him near me is to except his bigamous marriage then so be it. Like I said this is purely a what if.
Bill Strangely Enough this is something that has been mentioned before about Shakespeare it was also rumoured that Elizabeth was his mother too. It might be of interest to note, that more plays by Shakespeare, were performed in James’s reign than in Elizabeth’s. Going back to the actual writing of Shakespeare’s plays Christopher Marlowe was rumoured to have written a few of Shakespeare’s excepted poems.
If you get a chance read Doctor Faustus, by Marlowe it’s good.. Anyway I’ll end this one on a light note Shakespeare had a freind called Richard, and they both fancied the same actress, anyway Shakespeare managed to get the girl to go for a drink with him, not knowing that girl had arranged to meet Richard later that evening. Well one thing led to another and Shakespeare ended up at the girls house, a short while later Richard turned up at the house and banged on the door, Shakespeare opened the shutters of the window upstairs popped his head out and said to Richard, William the Conqueror came before Richard 1st so go away, and slammed the shutters shut, It’s not recorded what Richard said but I should imagine he wasn’t too happy.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 14, 2012
10:59 am
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Sharon
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Well, wasn’t Elizabeth quite the little tramp.
There has always been rumors about her and the babes she supposedly had. Mostly put forth by Catholics who wanted to destroy her reputation. Obviously it worked because today we have the movie. Cry I’ve heard the rumor of Elizabeth hiding a pregnancy while on progress. I wonder how she pulled that off? Oh, of course, her dresses would have hidden the pregnancy. And of course, she would not have gotten out of her coach during the day. And as for her love of riding a horse on progress which was her preference, certainly, she would have given that up to protect the child. Hunting, her favorite pastime, oh no not during this progress. Her people would have turned around and took their ill queen home. Frown

Now, not only do we know she slept with several men, and had their babies, we now know she slept with her own son. What a woman. Surprised

Boleyn, I’m going to borrow one of your words here…Claptrap! And one of Claire’s…Poppycock!
My words wouldn’t have been as clean.

March 14, 2012
11:02 am
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Mya Elise
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Yeah, I agree, I cannot see Elizabeth doing anything she didn’t want to do, soemthing she got from her mother: stubborness. But thats not a bad thing, standing up for what you believe is right and in your best interest especially in that time when women were bascially not allowed to have a voice – Women like Anne and Elizabeth weren’t gonna let that stop them though and that’s a very admirable quality in them. Women probably looked up to them even if they didn’t want to admit it because everyone was for Katherine of Aragon and Mary and being Queen, Katherine was pretty hard headed too when it came to what was important like when Henry wanted her gone. Don’t get me wrong, I loove Anne, BUT how Katherine stood up for her self was very inspiring and, you know, good for her. You can only be kicked down so many times before you bite back, right?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

March 14, 2012
12:50 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Well, wasn’t Elizabeth quite the little tramp.
There has always been rumors about her and the babes she supposedly had. Mostly put forth by Catholics who wanted to destroy her reputation. Obviously it worked because today we have the movie. Cry I’ve heard the rumor of Elizabeth hiding a pregnancy while on progress. I wonder how she pulled that off? Oh, of course, her dresses would have hidden the pregnancy. And of course, she would not have gotten out of her coach during the day. And as for her love of riding a horse on progress which was her preference, certainly, she would have given that up to protect the child. Hunting, her favorite pastime, oh no not during this progress. Her people would have turned around and took their ill queen home. Frown

Now, not only do we know she slept with several men, and had their babies, we now know she slept with her own son. What a woman. Surprised

Certainly I think a lot of the rumours about Elizabeth were defintely started by the Mary QOS cheerleading squad. Even Mary QOS put it about that Elizabeth was going to marry her horsemaster, Robert Dudley. I get the impression that Mary QOS was a spiteful little toerag. There other other words for her but I’d be here all night typing them.. Elizabeth was very clever through and actually turned the lies and snide comments back onto Mary, by making herself available to the people, by letting them see that she wasn’t pregnant etc.. In short telling Mary to prove it or belt up. Perhaps if Mary wasn’t so petty and immature (I can’t think of the right word to explain her attitude) she may have defeated Elizabeth..
What makes me laugh is, that Mary had made a right pig’s ear of ruling Scotland and thought that she could rule England instead, well again perhaps she may have succeeded if she hadn’t been so petty about the way she tried to discredit Elizabeth. Would Mary make a better job of ruling England? No I don’t think so. Mary’s main trouble from the start was the fact that she brought up solely to be the consort of a King, so therefore wasn’t educated in Kingly or Queenly state and war craft, her whole taught role was babies, religion, and needlecraft. She would have been shut out from what was considered to be Kingly politics. Maybe if she had, had something between her ears, she wouldn’t have married Darnley (which I think she did to spite Elizabeth, and perhaps try to hammer home the point that Darnley had more right to throne than Elizabeth), but instead married someone who could have given her an army to usurp Elizabeth and take the English throne herself..Perhaps if Darnley hadn’t of been murdered etc, she might have actually been able to do just that but I believe that even Philip of Spain believed that Mary had been involved in Darnley’s murder, and judging by the events afterwards the rest of the known world believed it too. I don’t think any of the Catholic Princes dare take the risk to marry Mary. Mary de Guise only just managed to hold on to Catholic rule in Scotland because of the Large French Army that was given to her when Mary QOS was betrothed to the French Heir to the throne Francis. Again perhaps if Francis had lived long enough to produce a couple of children with Mary one of them would have ruled Scotland with again a French army with him/her at their disposal to keep Catholic rule.. Interesting theory that?….
Elizabeth had a masterly upbringing in all forms of state and war craft, which made her completely unique and indefatiable, and I’m inclined to think that perhaps Elizabeth chose to be educated that, and I believe chose tutors that would do just that.. Roger Asham was one of them. She meant to rule and she knew it too. Food for thought folks hey?

Boleyn, I’m going to borrow one of your words here…Claptrap! And one of Claire’s…Poppycock!
My words wouldn’t have been as clean.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 14, 2012
1:09 pm
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Sharon
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I can’t picture Elizabeth being forced to get married. I can’t see her having affairs and getting pregnant either. The thought of it makes me chuckle. She had made her mind up when she was very young. If Robin couldn’t talk her into marriage, the other men didn’t have a prayer. She was one strong woman. I’m not sure any other woman of that time could have, or would have, fought off the men of that council to get her way. They bugged her to marry right up until they knew she was no longer capable of having children. I don’t know, that seems to be an awful lot of pressure, but she did not waver from her choice.

Boleyn, I love your stories. That Shakespeare story made me laugh.

March 14, 2012
2:17 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

What if Elizabeth had married Robert Dudley in secret sometime at the beginning of her reign or late in Mary’s reign, but had made it clear to him that she would never make him King, but because she was his wife, he could of course have bedroom privilages? What if she did have children with him which were farmed out?

If she married Dudley during that time, he would be committing bigamy since he was married to Amy Robsert from June 1550- Sept 1560.

It's always bunnies.

March 14, 2012
2:29 pm
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Anyanka
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Sharon said

I can’t picture Elizabeth being forced to get married. I can’t see her having affairs and getting pregnant either. The thought of it makes me chuckle. She had made her mind up when she was very young. If Robin couldn’t talk her into marriage, the other men didn’t have a prayer. She was one strong woman. I’m not sure any other woman of that time could have, or would have, fought off the men of that council to get her way. They bugged her to marry right up until they knew she was no longer capable of having children. I don’t know, that seems to be an awful lot of pressure, but she did not waver from her choice.

Exactly, she was well aware what happened to an unchaste woman due to her family history. She knew her behaviour had to be beyond reproach. Any slip could mean the end of her reign and possibly her life.

THat she stood upto 15 years of nagging by her councilors shows she was one stubborn b!tch

It's always bunnies.

March 15, 2012
2:35 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Boleyn said

What if Elizabeth had married Robert Dudley in secret sometime at the beginning of her reign or late in Mary’s reign, but had made it clear to him that she would never make him King, but because she was his wife, he could of course have bedroom privilages? What if she did have children with him which were farmed out?

If she married Dudley during that time, he would be committing bigamy since he was married to Amy Robsert from June 1550- Sept 1560.

This is true, so the WHAT IF marriage would have taken place anytime after 1560. Poor Amy she was rather neglected, but Robert did once love her devotedly when they first married. It may be of interest but the place that she died Cumnor Hall is haunted by her ghost, who appears on the staircase every year on the 8th of September. Funny that she died the day after Elizabeth’s birthday.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 15, 2012
10:27 am
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Mya Elise
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Wonder if she was actually murdered? I’m not blaming Elizabeth or anything but isn’t it strange that she died like that and around that time when Dudely really wanted a thing with Elizabeth. Maybe Dudely wanted it….
(*Just a thought, not to be taken seriously*)

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

March 15, 2012
10:50 am
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Sharon
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Mya Elise said

Wonder if she was actually murdered? I’m not blaming Elizabeth or anything but isn’t it strange that she died like that and around that time when Dudely really wanted a thing with Elizabeth. Maybe Dudely wanted it….
(*Just a thought, not to be taken seriously*)

This is a debate that will go on forever. I don’t think she was murdered, but many people do. Once the Elizabeth Files is up and running again, you should go over and visit. We have had some great discussions over there about this subject and many more. Dudley and Elizabeth were very close at this time, much to the chagrin of Cecil and others. There are so many theories as to what happened. One of them is that Cecil had her killed.

March 15, 2012
1:17 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Mya Elise said

Wonder if she was actually murdered? I’m not blaming Elizabeth or anything but isn’t it strange that she died like that and around that time when Dudely really wanted a thing with Elizabeth. Maybe Dudely wanted it….
(*Just a thought, not to be taken seriously*)

This is a debate that will go on forever. I don’t think she was murdered, but many people do. Once the Elizabeth Files is up and running again, you should go over and visit. We have had some great discussions over there about this subject and many more. Dudley and Elizabeth were very close at this time, much to the chagrin of Cecil and others. There are so many theories as to what happened. One of them is that Cecil had her killed.

This ia very interesting theory Sharon, and yes I think that once the Elizabeth Files are back up it will prove to be a very interesting topic for debate.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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