Kathrine Howard? | The Six Wives | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Kathrine Howard?
October 17, 2011
12:31 pm
Avatar
Elliemarianna
Corsham, Wiltshire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 316
Member Since:
June 7, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This is a portrait of  unknown lady – I think its Katherine Howard. What do you guys think?

Image Enlarger

She has a similar headdress in the other paintings of her.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

October 17, 2011
7:47 pm
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 599
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've always thought it more likely to be her, just based on my own notion that the other 2 portraits usually said to be her* look older than my mental image of Kathryn. There are a couple of preliminary sketches also speculated to be KH, that resemble your portrait, in my mind, anyway. What do you think?

*These two:

The first comes in 2 versions. I like the second better because it seems softer.

poss KH 1Image Enlarger         poss. KH 2Image Enlarger

 

and this one, sometimes called the Toledo portrait (also speculated to be Elizabeth Seymour, Jane's sister):

 

Toledo portraitImage Enlarger

 

The other 2 sketches that I think bear a resemblence to your pic are shown here with your pic in the middle:

 

sketches and portraitImage Enlarger

 

Now obviously the sketches aren't an exact match and I may be way off base here (not the first time!), but I see a resemblence.

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

October 17, 2011
7:52 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 782
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The portrait really looks like the most known of Katheryn. The one that is thought to be Jane's sister though i thought was already ruled out as Katheryn? I thought it was decided it was Jane's sister?…

Anyways it'd be really cool if that “new” picture was of Katheryn.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

October 17, 2011
8:23 pm
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 599
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mya-Elise. said:

The one that is thought to be Jane’s sister though i thought was already ruled out as Katheryn? I thought it was decided it was Jane’s sister?…

It's listed as “unknown, formerly known as KH”, but pops up constantly if you google-image KH. So in my mind, it's been disproved, but probably a lot of people don't know that.

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

October 18, 2011
12:16 am
Avatar
Elliemarianna
Corsham, Wiltshire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 316
Member Since:
June 7, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I found a better version here;

http://www.metmuseum.org/Colle…..fullscreen

The numerals on the side say 1522? (I think lol). It does look like Katherine in my opinion. Especially when the sketches are put together Laugh but if I'm correct on the numerals – perhaps it isnt? Confused

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

October 18, 2011
5:17 am
Avatar
E
Member
Banned
Forum Posts: 257
Member Since:
May 19, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
If the above lady is Katheryn, what a shame such a pretty head was cut off.. I found the below pic and wondered who she was.. She appears to be wearing the Queen's jewels and the style of clothing, headdress and jewellery is not dissimilar to Katherine Parr. The hand gestures and rings are similar to Princess Elizabeth (the lovely painting of her in a red dress when she was 14. This was labeled “Formerly known as Lady Jane Grey” The posture also looks like Elizabeth, but, who knows, could be Kitty Howard, Katherine Parr.. Why couldn't Tudor Ladies LABLE their portraits?
 
 
Image Enlarger
 

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

October 18, 2011
5:37 am
Avatar
Elliemarianna
Corsham, Wiltshire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 316
Member Since:
June 7, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

E said:

If the above lady is Katheryn, what a shame such a pretty head was cut off.. I found the below pic and wondered who she was.. She appears to be wearing the Queen's jewels and the style of clothing, headdress and jewellery is not dissimilar to Katherine Parr. The hand gestures and rings are similar to Princess Elizabeth (the lovely painting of her in a red dress when she was 14. This was labeled “Formerly known as Lady Jane Grey” The posture also looks like Elizabeth, but, who knows, could be Kitty Howard, Katherine Parr.. Why couldn't Tudor Ladies LABLE their portraits?
 
 
Image Enlarger
 

I think the lady is Katherine Parr – I wonder if it was painted around the same time as Elizabeth's portrait was done… I believe certain poses for portraits were subject to fashion. Maybe we should go back in time and give the Tudors label making machines Wink

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

October 18, 2011
6:57 pm
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 599
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It probably never occurred to them that a day would come when people didn't just know who they were! A bunch more have had dates or names attached to them later.

Elliemarianna, I see what looks like “ANNO” on the left side as you look at it. On the right, it says “ETATIS SVA* XVII”? Which I think means the sitter was 17 yrs old. So it definitely could be Kathryn Howard.

* SUA? SVÆ? SUÆ? The writing is kind of dark.

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

October 19, 2011
3:56 am
Avatar
Elliemarianna
Corsham, Wiltshire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 316
Member Since:
June 7, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Impish_Impulse said:

It probably never occurred to them that a day would come when people didn't just know who they were! A bunch more have had dates or names attached to them later.

Elliemarianna, I see what looks like “ANNO” on the left side as you look at it. On the right, it says “ETATIS SVA* XVII”? Which I think means the sitter was 17 yrs old. So it definitely could be Kathryn Howard.

* SUA? SVÆ? SUÆ? The writing is kind of dark.

Ooooh awesome, it says SVA Wink

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

October 20, 2011
6:00 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 782
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The portrait E put up definately looks like Catherine Parr but the stance looks identical to Elizabeth's portrait.

And about the possible Jane sister or KH portrait…if you compare that to Jane Seymour's portrait it looks really similar especially in the chin and nose.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

October 21, 2011
12:02 am
Avatar
Elliemarianna
Corsham, Wiltshire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 316
Member Since:
June 7, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mya-Elise. said:

The portrait E put up definately looks like Catherine Parr but the stance looks identical to Elizabeth's portrait.

And about the possible Jane sister or KH portrait…if you compare that to Jane Seymour's portrait it looks really similar especially in the chin and nose.

Did Jane's sister serve Jane? In the portrait thought to be her, she's wearing what was described as Jane's dress code – high collared black dress… I wonder if Jane did that so Henry's eye's wouldn't wander lol. It does look more like Jane, than how I imagine Katherine.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

October 21, 2011
3:39 am
Avatar
E
Member
Banned
Forum Posts: 257
Member Since:
May 19, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I thought the portrait I put up was Katherine Parr too- but she seemed too young!

They used to id portraits by the emblems worn by the sitter.. My notebook is too small to make it out- but what is the emblem on the brooch on her neckline?

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

October 21, 2011
3:49 am
Avatar
E
Member
Banned
Forum Posts: 257
Member Since:
May 19, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think it's Brandon's little 14 year old- Could it be possible it is Katherine Willoughby?

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

October 30, 2011
2:52 pm
Avatar
Claire-Louise
UK
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 256
Member Since:
March 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This really does look like it could be Kitty Howard….I really like this portrait, thanks for sharing it Elliemarianna Smile

January 4, 2013
9:36 am
Avatar
MizLiot
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
January 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Elliemarianna said

E said:

If the above lady is Katheryn, what a shame such a pretty head was cut off.. I found the below pic and wondered who she was.. She appears to be wearing the Queen’s jewels and the style of clothing, headdress and jewellery is not dissimilar to Katherine Parr. The hand gestures and rings are similar to Princess Elizabeth (the lovely painting of her in a red dress when she was 14. This was labeled “Formerly known as Lady Jane Grey” The posture also looks like Elizabeth, but, who knows, could be Kitty Howard, Katherine Parr.. Why couldn’t Tudor Ladies LABLE their portraits?
 
 
Image Enlarger
 

I think the lady is Katherine Parr – I wonder if it was painted around the same time as Elizabeth’s portrait was done… I believe certain poses for portraits were subject to fashion. Maybe we should go back in time and give the Tudors label making machines Wink

Image Enlarger

I think it is pretty obvious that the first portrait here is Katherine Parr. If you look closely, the sitters in these two portraits have similarities, as well as the fact that they are both wearing the same jewellery at the chest.

Time is a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey...stuff.

January 4, 2013
10:22 am
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Difficult to tell really, although I do agree Ellie’s portait does resemble a much older woman, from what we are led to believe about K.H. But then your’ve also got to look at the artist as well, they often used poetic brush licence and it could well be that in the artists eye, which is a lot different to what we actually percieve, is a lot different. He may have seen an older looking K.H and painted her according to what he saw.
Anne of Cleves is a prime example there. What Holbien saw obvisiously didn’t fit about what he was told about her by Cromwell and therefore painted a picture which he knew Henry would like. It seems as if the real picture of Anne was very different, recent tests, (they X rayed the picture or something) show that underneath the paint Anne of Cleves had a bigger and broader nose and a a very square jawline.
Mizlot The portrait you have posted has been indentified as Lady Jane Grey or a young Mary (Bloody) As we haven’t got an accurate description of K.H other than the fact she had auburn hair and was a flighty young girl it’s not easy to fit a portrait to that descrition. I’ve got a feeling that K.Has petite but with amber eyes and with more deep honey coloured hair, more than auburn.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 9, 2013
5:05 pm
Avatar
MizLiot
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
January 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

Mizlot The portrait you have posted has been indentified as Lady Jane Grey or a young Mary (Bloody) As we haven’t got an accurate description of K.H other than the fact she had auburn hair and was a flighty young girl it’s not easy to fit a portrait to that descrition. I’ve got a feeling that K.Has petite but with amber eyes and with more deep honey coloured hair, more than auburn.

I understand that it has been identified as Lady Jane Grey, but that doesn’t mean it’s set in stone. There is a portrait that for years was considered to be Katherine Parr, and is now considered to be Katherine of Aragon, just as one of the above portraits was named as Catherine Howard and is now named Elizabeth Seymour. See where I’m coming from? I believe the sitter in the last two portraits I posted here were Katherine Parr. The sitter has similar features and is wearing the same piece of jewellery. One is considered to be Lady Jane Grey, but it bears a striking resemblance to the one identified as Katherine Parr. :)

Time is a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey...stuff.

January 10, 2013
12:09 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

MizLiot said

Boleyn said

Mizlot The portrait you have posted has been indentified as Lady Jane Grey or a young Mary (Bloody) As we haven’t got an accurate description of K.H other than the fact she had auburn hair and was a flighty young girl it’s not easy to fit a portrait to that descrition. I’ve got a feeling that K.Has petite but with amber eyes and with more deep honey coloured hair, more than auburn.

I understand that it has been identified as Lady Jane Grey, but that doesn’t mean it’s set in stone. There is a portrait that for years was considered to be Katherine Parr, and is now considered to be Katherine of Aragon, just as one of the above portraits was named as Catherine Howard and is now named Elizabeth Seymour. See where I’m coming from? I believe the sitter in the last two portraits I posted here were Katherine Parr. The sitter has similar features and is wearing the same piece of jewellery. One is considered to be Lady Jane Grey, but it bears a striking resemblance to the one identified as Katherine Parr. :)

I apoligize if my previous posting sounded like a critism, it wasn’t intended that way. You are quite right of course there have been so many different portraits being bounced about that have been wrongly labelled.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 17, 2013
4:57 am
Avatar
chkylie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
March 16, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

A question about Katherine Howard… why do you think that the king decided to marry her with such a sense of urgency? I think that it is either 1) She thought that she was pregnant, galvanizing him to move so quickly in getting rid of Anne of Cleves, or 2) She would not have relations with him out of wedlock. Otherwise, since it was not like Anne of Cleves could not make heirs (being 25) I think that he would have just kept Katherine simply as a mistress.

Do you think that Henry believed Katherine was pregnant, or was she playing the same virtue game as Anne Boleyn/Jane Seymour?

--Kylie
queenaboleyn.blogspot.com (Tudor Blog)
kylie.floriental.org (Personal Blog)

"Let the grumble -- that's how it's going to be."

March 17, 2013
1:48 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

chkylie said

A question about Katherine Howard… why do you think that the king decided to marry her with such a sense of urgency? I think that it is either 1) She thought that she was pregnant, galvanizing him to move so quickly in getting rid of Anne of Cleves, or 2) She would not have relations with him out of wedlock. Otherwise, since it was not like Anne of Cleves could not make heirs (being 25) I think that he would have just kept Katherine simply as a mistress.

Do you think that Henry believed Katherine was pregnant, or was she playing the same virtue game as Anne Boleyn/Jane Seymour?

The whole situation between Henry and K.H was one of a great big Ego trip for Henry.. He was no doubt attracted by K.H, but as for marrying again it was a massivee ego trip for him. Look at it this why, Henry was a fat stinking old man, whilst his main rival Francis was still quite attractive in his way, but was married to the emperor’s neice not a particulary happy marriage, and one really that was as most marriages were to cement peace between France and Spain. Henry’s marriage to K.H was a way of rubbing it in Francis’s face. something like this “Listen matey I may be old, but look what I have a beautiful young wife who adores me. What have you got? A Spanish cow who you allowed to be forced upon you. Ha Ha Ha Francis you will never have any woman as beautiful as my Rose without a thorn.” As for being pregnant at the time of her marriage to Henry, Nope. What you must understand is that at the time the Howards were having their noses well and truly pushed out of joint by the Seymours, and promoted K.H as an untouched Virgin etc, that appealed to Henry’s ego.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 70

Currently Online:
13 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2345

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 934

DuchessofBrittany: 847

Mya Elise: 782

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 426044

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1679

Posts: 23600

Newest Members:

darryluw16, jeannettefs16, HapunrU, levisthomas02, anntb60, normawe2

Administrators: Claire: 998