Louise said

chkylie said

A question about Katherine Howard… why do you think that the king decided to marry her with such a sense of urgency? I think that it is either 1) She thought that she was pregnant, galvanizing him to move so quickly in getting rid of Anne of Cleves, or 2) She would not have relations with him out of wedlock. Otherwise, since it was not like Anne of Cleves could not make heirs (being 25) I think that he would have just kept Katherine simply as a mistress.

Do you think that Henry believed Katherine was pregnant, or was she playing the same virtue game as Anne Boleyn/Jane Seymour?

I think the urgency was simply because Henry believed there was a chance he could achieve more with Catherine than with Anne of Cleves. And I’m not talking about the erection of bigger and better palaces.

Louise..I’m blushing here…

But yeah! You’re right. Henry had failed to impress AoC when they first met and that festered into a total dislike of the lady in question.,She hadn’t reacted as his other wives would have to his childish schemes.

Henry though KH was far more mouldable into a KoA/JS-style Stepford Wife who would pander to his whims and drop boy-children like a domestic animal every breeding season.

Imagine his shock when she was looking for a better model and hadn’t been the Pure Maidentm he had been expecting to spend his dotage with.

It’s interesting though that KH was the only one that Henry is recorded as shedding a tear for. I think he must have loved her in his own way. I think he thought that she really was the one for him.

LadyPrincess said

It’s interesting though that KH was the only one that Henry is recorded as shedding a tear for. I think he must have loved her in his own way. I think he thought that she really was the one for him.

I’ve always felt that Henry’s reaction to KH’s deception, was for his own self-serving purposes. He sat KH on a pedestal, and when she fell, so too did his delusions of grandeur (if only momentarily). She was his rose without a thorn, a jewel of womanhood, the epitome of perfection in Henry’s mind. The tear was for the reality that KH was nothing like he wanted to imagine. She was human, like all the other wives, and she would suffer a terrible fate. The only person Henry ever loved was himself. Everything and everyone else was disposable.

I also agree with Boleyn’s post about Henry mourning Jane because she gave him a son. He was never very nice to Jane when she was alive, but he made sure she was remembered in death. Had the poor girl died without leaving a son behind, she would have been quickly forgotten, like KOA and AB. But, she was mother to the future King, and she would forever be, to Henry, the love of his life.

LadyPrincess said

Can’t believe I forgot about Jane Seymour! And I agree with you both: Henry only “mourned” them for his own selfish means. But to be fair, none of the women he married after KOA loved him either.

I think anne was in love with Henry..after all he was still in his prime and still a charming man. I’m sure love grew slowly but there was love.

I wonder though, if it turned out that KH became/was pregnant would he have had her arrested? After all, she could have been carrying his child- a boy! He was a vain man and desperate for a boy! Or do you all think that he would have assumed it was Culpepper’s or Dereham’s?

HAd KH been pregnant, I doubt it would have saved her. THe chances of a cuckoo in the nest would have preyed on Henry’s mind since he could remember having to take sanctuary in the Tower while he was a child due to the raise of a pretender to the throne. Ther’s no way Henry would risk his lawful heir’s succession by having yet another possible bastard, especially one he may not have fathered, clouding the issue.

LadyPrincess said

That’s interesting. I never thought that AB was in love with Henry (who could blame her). Or certainly not more than she loved what he could give to her i.e. a crown, lands, titles, money, prestige, and power. Henry was good looking back then so I’m sure he wasn’t repugnant to her. But it’s hard to imagine that she could love him on looks and pretty words alone. I think she loved Percy and when she couldn’t have him she went after Henry.

Henry did all the running where Anne was concerned. She meant exactly what she said “I cannot be your wife and your mistress I will never be”
Those few words inflamed his ardour, and from that time until he killed Anne was completely his to do with. She did love Henry passionately, but she perhaps forgot that you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Henry’s love for Anne and for his other wives was fickle, the only person he truly love with a passion was himself, he was a vain egotistical bigot.
I don’t think Anne took him seriously in his pursuit of her because she was aware of how fickle he was. Once he had got what he wanted he got bored and moved on to his next conquest. I think that when he made her a marquess she started to believe that he really did want her as his wife and Queen, and ultimately from that point she was doomed. In the film Anne of a thousand days. Thomas Boleyn in conversation with Mary says. “What the King is denied he goes half crazy for, what he given freely he despises. and that about sums Henry up in a nut shell.
Anne kept him at arms length and once she surrended (not sexually as yet) and believed in him etc, he started to hate her.
If Elizabeth had been a boy or if she had a boy, he would have been grateful, but to him Anne would have mearly been the woman who had carried his son, nothing more. He would have continued to play the field and would have expected Anne to put up with it.

Boleyn said

If Elizabeth had been a boy or if she had a boy, he would have been grateful, but to him Anne would have mearly been the woman who had carried his son, nothing more. He would have continued to play the field and would have expected Anne to put up with it.

Had Anne had a son, I’m sure all of Henry’s playmates would be far more tolerable to Anne. After all, she would then have been in an unassailable position .

Part of Anne’s unsecurities towards Henry’s other women was the fact that Henry had shown he was capable of putting one wife aside for another and she was frightened, with good reason as it turned out, of being supplanted in her turn.

LadyPrincess said

Boleyn said
She did love Henry passionately, but she perhaps forgot that you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

Hi Boleyn. Before reading the comments on the forums here, I’ve never heard that AB was in love with Henry. Is there some specific reason why you all say she was in love with him? Not saying anyone’s wrong…I am just curious. Because to me she always seemed as if she didn’t love him but was only manipulating him and playing him for a “fool”.

Anne was very different to other woman of the age. Woman in those days were expected to marry for position, power and wealth. If love or at least mutrual affection happened with in the relationship, then fair enough but for the most part the marriages were just all about as I’ve stated.
Woman were not as highly educated as men, and many of them couldn’t read or write or if they did it was a basic form of reading and writing. Of course there were exceptions to this to name but a few. Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Margaret of Navarre, Katherine Parr, and Margaret More. These woman were highly educated and could match wits with any man. Anne was a remarkable woman, whose mind was far more advanced in years than those in that time. I would perhaps go as far to say that she was the Emily Pankhurst of her era. She belived that woman were equal to men and proved it too. I suppose in some ways her influence with Henry over the divorce and the church situation could in some way could be construed as manipulation, but to be honest Henry had doubts about the validity of his marriage to Katherine of Aragon as early as 1512, but at the time England and Spain needed each other so he kept his gob shut. I guess that Anne thought like so many other woman did and still do they can change their men into the good husband and father and in Henry’s case king. As Anyanka rightly says if Anne had had a son he perhaps would have turned into such a git in later life. She loved Henry with a pasion but unfortunatly for her it’s that passion that killed her.

Quite right Sharon, that is my opinion too. At first Anne was just going with the flow, she knew Henry was as fickle and changable as the seasons where his love (ha Ha Ha) was. She had her own sister before her to serve as an example, to just how shallow Henry actually was. Once Henry had had his way with Mary he got bored and moved on, and Mary was left with nothing more than a ruined reputation. Anne was defnitely not her going to go down that root. She had a tremendous lot of self respect for herself and there was no way that she would give away her that self respect just because Henry made declarations of love for her.
She was under enormous pressure from Henry and I suspect that odious little runt Duke popping jay Norfolk was also putting pressure on Anne to surrender to Henry’s lust, so it’s small wonder she was tempestuous and volatile during Henry’s courtship. Henry of course excepted this as just part of Anne’s scheme of playing hard to get and excepted her behaviour , but once she surrended, and still continued her tempestuous behaviour he couldn’t understand it. As far as he was concerned as long as she came up with the goods ie a son he could do what he wanted. Anne however thought that perhaps as she spent so long holding him off he would understand that she wouldn’t tolerate infidelity from him. Henry betrayed her most cruelly in more ways than one. She must have felt bitterly unhappy towards the end of her life. She trusted Henry and he threw her trust and love back in her face. This will sound daft but in someways perhaps in her own way her death was almost like committing suicide by proxy if that makes sence.

Anne fan said

Going back to Henry mourning Katherine Howard I think Chapuys had it right in his letter when he said that Henry mourned her because he hadn’t got the next one lined up!

Anne fan said

Going back to Henry mourning Katherine Howard I think Chapuys had it right in his letter when he said that Henry mourned her because he hadn’t got the next one lined up!

Yep that’s very true. The same could be said of Jane too. He did mourn her for his own selfish reasons of course, because there was no replacement hovering in the background to distract him.