Kathrine Howard? | Page 2 | The Six Wives | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Kathrine Howard?
March 17, 2013
4:07 pm
Avatar
Louise
Hampshire, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 612
Member Since:
December 5, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

chkylie said

A question about Katherine Howard… why do you think that the king decided to marry her with such a sense of urgency? I think that it is either 1) She thought that she was pregnant, galvanizing him to move so quickly in getting rid of Anne of Cleves, or 2) She would not have relations with him out of wedlock. Otherwise, since it was not like Anne of Cleves could not make heirs (being 25) I think that he would have just kept Katherine simply as a mistress.

Do you think that Henry believed Katherine was pregnant, or was she playing the same virtue game as Anne Boleyn/Jane Seymour?

I think the urgency was simply because Henry believed there was a chance he could achieve more with Catherine than with Anne of Cleves. And I’m not talking about the erection of bigger and better palaces.

March 18, 2013
2:23 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2345
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Louise said

chkylie said

A question about Katherine Howard… why do you think that the king decided to marry her with such a sense of urgency? I think that it is either 1) She thought that she was pregnant, galvanizing him to move so quickly in getting rid of Anne of Cleves, or 2) She would not have relations with him out of wedlock. Otherwise, since it was not like Anne of Cleves could not make heirs (being 25) I think that he would have just kept Katherine simply as a mistress.

Do you think that Henry believed Katherine was pregnant, or was she playing the same virtue game as Anne Boleyn/Jane Seymour?

I think the urgency was simply because Henry believed there was a chance he could achieve more with Catherine than with Anne of Cleves. And I’m not talking about the erection of bigger and better palaces.

Louise..I’m blushing here…

But yeah! You’re right. Henry had failed to impress AoC when they first met and that festered into a total dislike of the lady in question.,She hadn’t reacted as his other wives would have to his childish schemes.

Henry though KH was far more mouldable into a KoA/JS-style Stepford Wife who would pander to his whims and drop boy-children like a domestic animal every breeding season.

Imagine his shock when she was looking for a better model and hadn’t been the Pure Maidentm he had been expecting to spend his dotage with.

It's always bunnies.

March 18, 2013
5:16 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Plain and simple lust on Henry’s part!

April 3, 2013
2:25 am
Avatar
LadyPrincess
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 63
Member Since:
February 22, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It’s interesting though that KH was the only one that Henry is recorded as shedding a tear for. I think he must have loved her in his own way. I think he thought that she really was the one for him.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

April 3, 2013
2:08 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LadyPrincess said

It’s interesting though that KH was the only one that Henry is recorded as shedding a tear for. I think he must have loved her in his own way. I think he thought that she really was the one for him.

Henry only really mourned Jane and that’s only because she gave him his son. Henry’s supposed greif at K.H’s downfall and death was more to do with self pity, in fact it was every emotion you can think of as long as self was in front of it.
Henry still saw himself as the Golden Godlike youth of yesteryear, and I think he knew that K.H was his last shot at having more Children. When he found out about her behaviour both before and after his marriage this illusion of Godlike staus was shattered into a thousand pieces and he truly saw himself for what he was, A fat, hopeless stinky old man. Plus his pride and manhood had been kicked into the ground to.
Francis sent H* a letter after it became known just what K.H had been up to. “Sorry to hear about the wanton and naughty behaviour of the Queen old boy but what did you expect when you marry someone young enough to be your daughter.” that was the general gist of it from Francis anyway and Henry then realised that everyone had been laughing at him behind his back as well especially Francis who was his main rival from the time francis came to the French throne.
No Henry’s greif was just the old poor bloody martyr act he came out with to get sympathy, but i rather think that with K.H sympathy for his self inflited problems was getting rather thin on the ground.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 3, 2013
3:07 pm
Avatar
DuchessofBrittany
Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 847
Member Since:
June 7, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LadyPrincess said

It’s interesting though that KH was the only one that Henry is recorded as shedding a tear for. I think he must have loved her in his own way. I think he thought that she really was the one for him.

I’ve always felt that Henry’s reaction to KH’s deception, was for his own self-serving purposes. He sat KH on a pedestal, and when she fell, so too did his delusions of grandeur (if only momentarily). She was his rose without a thorn, a jewel of womanhood, the epitome of perfection in Henry’s mind. The tear was for the reality that KH was nothing like he wanted to imagine. She was human, like all the other wives, and she would suffer a terrible fate. The only person Henry ever loved was himself. Everything and everyone else was disposable.

I also agree with Boleyn’s post about Henry mourning Jane because she gave him a son. He was never very nice to Jane when she was alive, but he made sure she was remembered in death. Had the poor girl died without leaving a son behind, she would have been quickly forgotten, like KOA and AB. But, she was mother to the future King, and she would forever be, to Henry, the love of his life.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

April 3, 2013
4:06 pm
Avatar
LadyPrincess
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 63
Member Since:
February 22, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Can’t believe I forgot about Jane Seymour! And I agree with you both: Henry only “mourned” them for his own selfish means. But to be fair, none of the women he married after KOA loved him either.

I wonder though, if it turned out that KH became/was pregnant would he have had her arrested? After all, she could have been carrying his child- a boy! He was a vain man and desperate for a boy! Or do you all think that he would have assumed it was Culpepper’s or Dereham’s?

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

April 4, 2013
12:55 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2345
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LadyPrincess said

Can’t believe I forgot about Jane Seymour! And I agree with you both: Henry only “mourned” them for his own selfish means. But to be fair, none of the women he married after KOA loved him either.

I think anne was in love with Henry..after all he was still in his prime and still a charming man. I’m sure love grew slowly but there was love.

I wonder though, if it turned out that KH became/was pregnant would he have had her arrested? After all, she could have been carrying his child- a boy! He was a vain man and desperate for a boy! Or do you all think that he would have assumed it was Culpepper’s or Dereham’s?

HAd KH been pregnant, I doubt it would have saved her. THe chances of a cuckoo in the nest would have preyed on Henry’s mind since he could remember having to take sanctuary in the Tower while he was a child due to the raise of a pretender to the throne. Ther’s no way Henry would risk his lawful heir’s succession by having yet another possible bastard, especially one he may not have fathered, clouding the issue.

It's always bunnies.

April 4, 2013
2:59 am
Avatar
LadyPrincess
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 63
Member Since:
February 22, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

That’s interesting. I never thought that AB was in love with Henry (who could blame her). Or certainly not more than she loved what he could give to her i.e. a crown, lands, titles, money, prestige, and power. Henry was good looking back then so I’m sure he wasn’t repugnant to her. But it’s hard to imagine that she could love him on looks and pretty words alone. I think she loved Percy and when she couldn’t have him she went after Henry.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

April 4, 2013
8:09 am
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LadyPrincess said

That’s interesting. I never thought that AB was in love with Henry (who could blame her). Or certainly not more than she loved what he could give to her i.e. a crown, lands, titles, money, prestige, and power. Henry was good looking back then so I’m sure he wasn’t repugnant to her. But it’s hard to imagine that she could love him on looks and pretty words alone. I think she loved Percy and when she couldn’t have him she went after Henry.

Henry did all the running where Anne was concerned. She meant exactly what she said “I cannot be your wife and your mistress I will never be”
Those few words inflamed his ardour, and from that time until he killed Anne was completely his to do with. She did love Henry passionately, but she perhaps forgot that you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Henry’s love for Anne and for his other wives was fickle, the only person he truly love with a passion was himself, he was a vain egotistical bigot.
I don’t think Anne took him seriously in his pursuit of her because she was aware of how fickle he was. Once he had got what he wanted he got bored and moved on to his next conquest. I think that when he made her a marquess she started to believe that he really did want her as his wife and Queen, and ultimately from that point she was doomed. In the film Anne of a thousand days. Thomas Boleyn in conversation with Mary says. “What the King is denied he goes half crazy for, what he given freely he despises. and that about sums Henry up in a nut shell.
Anne kept him at arms length and once she surrended (not sexually as yet) and believed in him etc, he started to hate her.
If Elizabeth had been a boy or if she had a boy, he would have been grateful, but to him Anne would have mearly been the woman who had carried his son, nothing more. He would have continued to play the field and would have expected Anne to put up with it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 4, 2013
8:11 am
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LadyPrincess said

Can’t believe I forgot about Jane Seymour! And I agree with you both: Henry only “mourned” them for his own selfish means. But to be fair, none of the women he married after KOA loved him either.

I wonder though, if it turned out that KH became/was pregnant would he have had her arrested? After all, she could have been carrying his child- a boy! He was a vain man and desperate for a boy! Or do you all think that he would have assumed it was Culpepper’s or Dereham’s?

There is a “What if Katherine Howard had been pregnant” dicussion on the forum pages.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 4, 2013
2:38 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2345
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

If Elizabeth had been a boy or if she had a boy, he would have been grateful, but to him Anne would have mearly been the woman who had carried his son, nothing more. He would have continued to play the field and would have expected Anne to put up with it.

Had Anne had a son, I’m sure all of Henry’s playmates would be far more tolerable to Anne. After all, she would then have been in an unassailable position .

Part of Anne’s unsecurities towards Henry’s other women was the fact that Henry had shown he was capable of putting one wife aside for another and she was frightened, with good reason as it turned out, of being supplanted in her turn.

It's always bunnies.

April 4, 2013
4:21 pm
Avatar
LadyPrincess
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 63
Member Since:
February 22, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said
She did love Henry passionately, but she perhaps forgot that you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

Hi Boleyn. Before reading the comments on the forums here, I’ve never heard that AB was in love with Henry. Is there some specific reason why you all say she was in love with him? Not saying anyone’s wrong…I am just curious. Because to me she always seemed as if she didn’t love him but was only manipulating him and playing him for a “fool”.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

April 4, 2013
5:27 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LadyPrincess said

Boleyn said
She did love Henry passionately, but she perhaps forgot that you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

Hi Boleyn. Before reading the comments on the forums here, I’ve never heard that AB was in love with Henry. Is there some specific reason why you all say she was in love with him? Not saying anyone’s wrong…I am just curious. Because to me she always seemed as if she didn’t love him but was only manipulating him and playing him for a “fool”.

Anne was very different to other woman of the age. Woman in those days were expected to marry for position, power and wealth. If love or at least mutrual affection happened with in the relationship, then fair enough but for the most part the marriages were just all about as I’ve stated.
Woman were not as highly educated as men, and many of them couldn’t read or write or if they did it was a basic form of reading and writing. Of course there were exceptions to this to name but a few. Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Margaret of Navarre, Katherine Parr, and Margaret More. These woman were highly educated and could match wits with any man. Anne was a remarkable woman, whose mind was far more advanced in years than those in that time. I would perhaps go as far to say that she was the Emily Pankhurst of her era. She belived that woman were equal to men and proved it too. I suppose in some ways her influence with Henry over the divorce and the church situation could in some way could be construed as manipulation, but to be honest Henry had doubts about the validity of his marriage to Katherine of Aragon as early as 1512, but at the time England and Spain needed each other so he kept his gob shut. I guess that Anne thought like so many other woman did and still do they can change their men into the good husband and father and in Henry’s case king. As Anyanka rightly says if Anne had had a son he perhaps would have turned into such a git in later life. She loved Henry with a pasion but unfortunatly for her it’s that passion that killed her.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 4, 2013
8:05 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LadyPrincess said

Boleyn said
She did love Henry passionately, but she perhaps forgot that you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

Hi Boleyn. Before reading the comments on the forums here, I’ve never heard that AB was in love with Henry. Is there some specific reason why you all say she was in love with him? Not saying anyone’s wrong…I am just curious. Because to me she always seemed as if she didn’t love him but was only manipulating him and playing him for a “fool”.

LadyPrincess,
I think Henry was trying to manipulate Anne into becoming a mistress, not Anne trying to manipulate him. Anne respected herself and would not be any man’s whore. It was the king who changed his mind and decided she would be his wife. Anne could never have seen that coming, not in the beginning of their relationship. He had not tried for a divorce before that. She had no reason to believe he would consider a divorce from Katherine. This is just a personal opinion, but I think she was hoping he would bother someone else after she told him she would not be his mistress, but he didn’t.
Henry kept on pursuing her. Now, here was this good looking, charming, and powerful man who was telling Anne he loved her and couldn’t live without her. There were no other men who braved the king’s wrath enough to court her. (For she is Caesar’s) What’s a girl to do? If he wasn’t with her, he was sending her letters telling her he loved her, or showering her with gifts. I think she clung to the hope that he was serious. It happened slowly, but I think she started to trust him and later, to love him. He offered her a crown yes, but he also promised her his love and his protection. Henry treated Anne as an equal partner. I don’t think Anne could have loved him otherwise. She was far too smart to be left in the background and Henry seemed to accept her as she was. Until after he married her. Then she was supposed to take a backseat and have boy babies and shutup. Bet she didn’t see that coming either.

April 5, 2013
8:41 am
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Quite right Sharon, that is my opinion too. At first Anne was just going with the flow, she knew Henry was as fickle and changable as the seasons where his love (ha Ha Ha) was. She had her own sister before her to serve as an example, to just how shallow Henry actually was. Once Henry had had his way with Mary he got bored and moved on, and Mary was left with nothing more than a ruined reputation. Anne was defnitely not her going to go down that root. She had a tremendous lot of self respect for herself and there was no way that she would give away her that self respect just because Henry made declarations of love for her.
She was under enormous pressure from Henry and I suspect that odious little runt Duke popping jay Norfolk was also putting pressure on Anne to surrender to Henry’s lust, so it’s small wonder she was tempestuous and volatile during Henry’s courtship. Henry of course excepted this as just part of Anne’s scheme of playing hard to get and excepted her behaviour , but once she surrended, and still continued her tempestuous behaviour he couldn’t understand it. As far as he was concerned as long as she came up with the goods ie a son he could do what he wanted. Anne however thought that perhaps as she spent so long holding him off he would understand that she wouldn’t tolerate infidelity from him. Henry betrayed her most cruelly in more ways than one. She must have felt bitterly unhappy towards the end of her life. She trusted Henry and he threw her trust and love back in her face. This will sound daft but in someways perhaps in her own way her death was almost like committing suicide by proxy if that makes sence.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 10, 2013
6:27 pm
Avatar
Anne fan
Leicestershire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 123
Member Since:
February 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Going back to Henry mourning Katherine Howard I think Chapuys had it right in his letter when he said that Henry mourned her because he hadn’t got the next one lined up!

April 10, 2013
9:34 pm
Avatar
DuchessofBrittany
Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 847
Member Since:
June 7, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anne fan said

Going back to Henry mourning Katherine Howard I think Chapuys had it right in his letter when he said that Henry mourned her because he hadn’t got the next one lined up!

Laugh

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

April 11, 2013
12:00 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anyanka said

Boleyn said

If Elizabeth had been a boy or if she had a boy, he would have been grateful, but to him Anne would have mearly been the woman who had carried his son, nothing more. He would have continued to play the field and would have expected Anne to put up with it.

Had Anne had a son, I’m sure all of Henry’s playmates would be far more tolerable to Anne. After all, she would then have been in an unassailable position .

Part of Anne’s unsecurities towards Henry’s other women was the fact that Henry had shown he was capable of putting one wife aside for another and she was frightened, with good reason as it turned out, of being supplanted in her turn.

That’s a good point Anyanka and if you think about it Henry’s MO to do with his love life was an endless round of supplanting one woman for another.
His mistresses we can exclude although they did play a part. Anne supplanted K.O.A. Jane supplanted Anne. and K.H. supplanted A.O.C. although Henry was a real ladies man he would never be satified with the woman he had.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 11, 2013
12:03 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anne fan said

Going back to Henry mourning Katherine Howard I think Chapuys had it right in his letter when he said that Henry mourned her because he hadn’t got the next one lined up!

Yep that’s very true. The same could be said of Jane too. He did mourn her for his own selfish reasons of course, because there was no replacement hovering in the background to distract him.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 70

Currently Online:
15 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2345

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 934

DuchessofBrittany: 847

Mya Elise: 782

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 426044

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1679

Posts: 23600

Newest Members:

darryluw16, jeannettefs16, HapunrU, levisthomas02, anntb60, normawe2

Administrators: Claire: 998