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Hello everybody
June 30, 2015
4:18 pm
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rzubey
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My name is Roselle Zubey. I am a fairly new researcher so I am looking forward to posting here to learn from everyone here. I am working on an alternate history project in which Anne births the male heir instead of Jane Seymour. In my story all Anne’s pregnancies are carried to term Elizabeth is born first then the next three pregnancies are male. I want my speculations to be based on fact. That’s why I’m looking forward to talking to people here.

June 30, 2015
5:40 pm
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Boleyn
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Welcome to our Boleyn Family Home Rzubey. Come on in, sit down, put your feet up and enjoy the wild ride.
We are a mixed bunch of scallywags who enjoy a good debate and sharing the odd laugh or 2 along the way. Jump right in with any questions there is always someone around to answer them.
I look forward to reading your posts.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 30, 2015
10:33 pm
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Anyanka
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Bonjour et bienvenue.

It's always bunnies.

July 1, 2015
12:07 am
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Sharon
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Hi and welcome. Will be looking forward to your thoughts. Enjoy!

July 1, 2015
10:22 am
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Boleyn
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rzubey said

My name is Roselle Zubey. I am a fairly new researcher so I am looking forward to posting here to learn from everyone here. I am working on an alternate history project in which Anne births the male heir instead of Jane Seymour. In my story all Anne’s pregnancies are carried to term Elizabeth is born first then the next three pregnancies are male. I want my speculations to be based on fact. That’s why I’m looking forward to talking to people here.

I hope this helps a little. As we all know Anne miscarried a child which was around 4 months in gestestation, and was determined to have been a boy. Although it is belived by some that Anne had at least 1 more miscarriage/stillbirth/or lived less then a few hours child after Elizabeth,
the child was named as Henry Duke of Cornwall.
As your book is a work of fiction, you can to a certain extent bend the rules slightly, as long as you don’t go to overboard. Can’t suddenly have Gengis Khan and his army (dressed as Fairies) riding over the hill on pink Elephants Laugh
The thing is with writing any fictional book is to not get bogged down in fact, it’s easily done, and then you completely forget what it is you are writing about. Have fun with your writing, take your time, and take a break from it from time to time. You will edit your work hundreds and hundreds of times, or even rewrite entire chapters.
I find it much easier to keep 2 files one for story lines only and the other for your story.
Above all I urge you to read both fiction and factional novels of your chosen book subject. Claire Ridgway our benefactress has written some very good books about Anne and Claire Cherry another of our many family members has written a book about George Boleyn.
We in our family home will help you all we can with our opinions, but in the end the rest is down to you..
I wish you every success with your venture.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 1, 2015
7:05 pm
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Sharon
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Anne was said to have been pregnant in 1534. She became pregnant again 3 or 4 months (December or January) after Elizabeth was born. She miscarried in July.
Boleyn,
Anne did not have a son who lived at all, or one who was titled as Duke of Cornwall. KOA gave birth to a son who lived for 52 days. He was named Henry, Duke of Cornwall.

July 1, 2015
11:21 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Anne was said to have been pregnant in 1534. She became pregnant again 3 or 4 months (December or January) after Elizabeth was born. She miscarried in July.
Boleyn,
Anne did not have a son who lived at all, or one who was titled as Duke of Cornwall. KOA gave birth to a son who lived for 52 days. He was named Henry, Duke of Cornwall.

Like you Sharon I believe that Anne miscarried 2 children, but some schools of thought do mention a stillborn child (son) born circa summer 1534.
However is it entirely possible that the July baby you have mentioned may be the Henry I mentioned? and that he was still born or lived just mere moments. This child would have been 6 or 7 months gestation,enough to know for sure what’s it’s sex was.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 2, 2015
5:10 pm
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Sharon
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I had never heard that story. Yes, they would have been able to tell the sex of the child miscarried in ’34. The thing is we are not aware of what happened really. Our gossip-in chief, Chapuys, was away from court for a while, and later says this miscarriage was kept a secret, never to be mentioned. As hard as it is to believe, he may have missed out on all the gossip this time. Wink

July 3, 2015
8:04 am
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Boleyn
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It cetainly is a very strange moment in time Sharon. Makes you wonder why it was kept so secret, another mad Boleyn Moment in the offing here as well. Is it entirely possibly that the reason this miscarriage, was kept so secret was because the child was malformed? We know this rumour was bandied about after Anne’s miscarriage in 1536, but has history over time got it’s knickers in a knot, and mentioned the deformed fetus as being Anne’s pregnancy as of 1536, not 1534. I seem to recall somewhere on the forum, that Mary B alledgely had a lackwitted child and that Anne refused to allow the child to come to court. Again it’s one of those historical mysteries.
This allegation seems to have been bandied about often in Tudor times as many years ago I read that K.O.A’s last child (another girl) was so hidiously deformed, that it scarcely lived an hour.
If Anne’s last child and the hasily covered up dead child of 1534 were deformed, then Anne would have copped the blame for it, as anything to do with pregnancy and the care of the growing child would be totally down to the mother.
This belief persisted right up into the Victorian era. John Merrick (The Elephant Man) is a prime example of how men believed that a woman’s fancies during pregnancy could affect the growing child. It is believed that the reason why John was born so deformed was because his mother had taken fright at seeing an Elephant, this fright had somehow transferred itself to the growing child and as a result the baby was born deformed.
In Tudor times a pregnant woman, would be practically held prisoner to her own body, she had to avoid everything that was deemed dangerous for the growing child, this also included food. Most doctors believed that a simple diet of bread or toast and wine was by far the safest option to bring forth a heatlhy child, and that all other food such as meat and fish and sweet dishes should be eaten sparingly. It makes me wonder how these poor woman survived their pregnancy let alone giving birth and surviving.Surprised
These days such Hocus Pocus is laughed at, and woman can eat and do whatever they want during pregnancy. Just as well to for if we still believed in this claptrap, my daughter would have been looking like a bottle of Ribena, because I drank so much of the stuff when I was pregnant with her.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 9, 2015
6:35 pm
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Sharon
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I don’t believe that Anne miscarried a deformed fetus ever. That story did not come about until Nicolas Sander said it 40 years after Anne was long gone. “The time had now come when Anne was to be again a mother, but she brought forth only a shapeless mass of flesh.” He was trying to paint Anne with a black brush in the hopes of damaging Elizabeth’s reputation. He was a Catholic and would have loved nothing better than to damage Elizabeth as he thought of her as being a heretic. He also claimed that Henry was Anne’s father. So I have a real problem trusting what he said.

The only place where that story about Mary having a lackwitted child was in Tracy Borman’s book, Elizabeth’s Women. No where else. She gave no reference for it, and when she is asked where she got that info, she refuses to answer the question. If an historian can’t back up a statement with facts, primary sources, they should leave them out of their book.

Rozelle, I love the premise of your book. No miscarriages. Three male heirs for Henry. Anne does not die. Yes, that would be great. Wink There is a discrepancy on whether there were 2 or 3 miscarriages, but I like the idea of three sons living.

July 9, 2015
9:00 pm
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Boleyn
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I agree Sharon, Anne’s miscarriages were simply down to rotton bad luck, I don’t believe for one moment there was anything wrong with either child. In Elizabeth’s time the Catholics would have thrown any old balderdash about Anne into the cooking pot, as they didn’t think that Elizabeth had any right to the throne. I have actually wondered what Elizabeth’s reaction was to these slurs against her mother? I really can’t believe she simply airbrushed her mother completely out her memory. During her father’s lifetime she would have know that the words Anne Boleyn were a BIG no no so I don’t think she would have risked her father’s wrath by even mentioning anything that sounded like Anne Boleyn. But surely after the old git had kicked the bucket she would have mentioned her mother at some point during her life after that?
I would love to see how Rozelle book plays out too, it sounds intriquing I must confess. The thing is given how selfish Henry was i.e hogging the limelight and the stage, how would he feel to share to share it all with 3 sons? We know how paranoid and over protective he was with Edward, just as his father was with him when he was younger, would he be just the same with his sons too?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 13, 2015
1:46 am
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luanni
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Hi Roselle and welcome to the board. I’m pretty new here, too. 🙂

I find alternative histories fascinating…I find myself turning over the “what ifs?” in my mind, almost to the point of distraction. LOL So far, I have done more reading of the board than posting, but I find this place is a great spot to mill through fact and have fun speculating all at the same time. There are already so many thoughts and opinions in this thread alone. 🙂

As your book is a work of fiction, you can to a certain extent bend the rules slightly, as long as you don’t go to overboard. Can’t suddenly have Gengis Khan and his army (dressed as Fairies) riding over the hill on pink Elephants Laugh

Read more: http://www.theanneboleynfiles……z3fj6KxVrV

Hey now, Boleyn! You stole my idea. 😛 Joking aside, I agree about your writing tips.

Since we’re on the subject of the miscarriages, and I haven’t yet seen it posted on the board (yet), what does everyone think about the Kell protein theory? No one could say for sure, but it’s an interesting prospect that could explain some of Henry’s behavior, and why KOA and Anne had such a hard time with the pregnancies.

http://www.slate.com/articles/…..iages.html

Apologies again if that link is a beaten horse of discussion around here. LOL

July 16, 2015
12:53 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

I agree Sharon, Anne’s miscarriages were simply down to rotton bad luck, I don’t believe for one moment there was anything wrong with either child.

ITA with both of you. even in 21st C irst world countries the miscrriage rate is 1 in 5 confirmed pregnancies. I had 2 m/cs out of 5 pregancies and know other women who have had more than that number.Most of us losing the fetus in the first trimester but the odd one losing in the second. and 1 sufering a stillbirth at 32 weeks.
All women were healthy, well nurished and with full medical cre.

In Elizabeth’s time the Catholics would have thrown any old balderdash about Anne into the cooking pot, as they didn’t think that Elizabeth had any right to the throne. I have actually wondered what Elizabeth’s reaction was to these slurs against her mother? I really can’t believe she simply airbrushed her mother completely out her memory.

Elizabeth wasn’t even 3 when Anne was killed. Most people have very llittle in the way of memories before the age of 3 or 4. Big events are more likely to be remembered but Anne as a queen and quens tended to have very little one on one contact with thier children in that era,leavinhg them to be brought up by wet nurses and lady governesses. Annes memory was almost certainly one of a beautifuly dressed woman who appeared from time to tme but may well have been over-writen by the memory of other well-dressed women who Elizabeth as old were her step-mother.

I don’t think Elizabeth airbrushed her memory as much as had few positive memories of her mother. Since Elizabeth didn’t spend muxch of her life at court until she became ueen, the chances of her meeting people who knew and where sympathetic to her mother were slim.While it’s possible that Katherine Parr may have spoken to Elizabeth about Anne since KP was the only one of the steps to have a long lasting maternal realionship with Elizabeth, I doubt KP would have or could have told Elizabeth much about Anne’s personality as I don’t believe KP was at court much during Anne’s brief tenure as queen.

During her father’s lifetime she would have know that the words Anne Boleyn were a BIG no no so I don’t think she would have risked her father’s wrath by even mentioning anything that sounded like Anne Boleyn. But surely after the old git had kicked the bucket she would have mentioned her mother at some point during her life after that?

There was at least one reference to Anne during Elizabeth’s coronation precession but given that during both Edward’s and Mary’s reigns, Elizabeth was still considered to be the base-born sister who wasn’t expected to inherit the throne and I doubt that the Seymors or Dudly would have allowed elizabeth any leeway to talk or be told about her moher in any positive way. And Mary certainly wouldn’t have allowed ‘That Woman” to be glorified in anyway.

I would love to see how Rozelle book plays out too, it sounds intriquing I must confess. The thing is given how selfish Henry was i.e hogging the limelight and the stage, how would he feel to share to share it all with 3 sons? We know how paranoid and over protective he was with Edward, just as his father was with him when he was younger, would he be just the same with his sons too?

I think if Henry had had several healthly sons , he wouldn’t have been as protective over the younger ones as he was over Edward. After all..Henry knew the value of a healthy spare who had been allowed more freedom than his older brother.

It's always bunnies.

July 29, 2015
6:55 pm
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Sharon
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Luanni,
The way I understand Kyra’s theory is that the first child would have the K protein and the mother would, therefore, continue to carry it and that would cause any other pregnancy to fail. But that theory falls apart with Katherine’s pregnancy of Mary. She was…what?…the third or fourth pregnancy. There was a son born previous to Mary who lived 52 days.
Miscarriages happened all the time back then. The eating habits (or non-eating habits in KOA’s case) of royalty was awful, which may have contributed to miscarriages.
I don’t know the answer, I just think it is sad that these women suffered trying to give Henry a male heir. I tend to believe the stress from the pressure of needing to produce a male heir might have had something to do with it. Stress can do terrible things to a body.
Can anyone name another king who had so much trouble having children? Charles II had them with just about every woman he looked at. Unfortunately, none of them were legitimate. However, to his credit, he did not toss his wife away. Many other queens, and noble women, had miscarriages, but they also had plenty of children. Okay, so maybe it was Henry’s fault after all. Wink

August 4, 2015
5:21 am
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Anyanka
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Sharon said

Can anyone name another king who had so much trouble having children? Charles II had them with just about every woman he looked at. Unfortunately, none of them were legitimate. However, to his credit, he did not toss his wife away. Many other queens, and noble women, had miscarriages, but they also had plenty of children. Okay, so maybe it was Henry’s fault after all. Wink

Queen Anne had ..er 17 pregnancies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Queen_of_Great_Britain)

It's always bunnies.

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