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You Anne
January 1, 2012
2:21 pm
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Mya Elise
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If you could go back and be Anne Boleyn, what things would you of done differently with her life? 

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

January 1, 2012
7:21 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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Mya-Elise. said:

If you could go back and be Anne Boleyn, what things would you [have] done differently with her life? 

I'm not sure I'd want to do this. I'm assuming you mean that knowing what would happen, would you try to do things “safer” the second time around? Laying low, stifling your true feelings, hiding your true beliefs – with no guarantee it would change anything – would be hell. I'd feel like a coward. Maybe I'd have married Percy or Butler, maybe I'd have died even sooner this time around giving birth, and making zero impact on history. Even being kinder to Katharine and Mary* wouldn't have changed her fate if she didn't give Henry the son he wanted. Jane Seymour would still be waiting in the wings.

*It's easy for us to sit and judge Anne with the benefit of knowing what would happen. Think of it from Anne's POV: if she believes Katharine's marriage to Henry to be unlawful and not valid, why would she treat kindly a woman standing in the way of her chance at love and marriage to the King of England? Why would she bend over backwards to be nice to Henry's disrespectful, illegitimate daughter (who wants nothing more than to deny Anne's own child's place in the succession)?

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

January 2, 2012
10:56 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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This is simply my opinion…

If the projectory of Anne's life was going to be the same, then any changes in behaviours would not change her fate. Unless my Anne could birth a son who survivied, then Henry would still rid himself of me. By 1536, it became clear Anne was not going to have a son, their marriage had broken down, and Henry's affection for her ceased. Even if Anne has been the perfect, submissive, obedient, Tudor wife, she was replacable. There was no son, so every other thing in her life was moot.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

January 2, 2012
4:27 pm
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Mya Elise
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I'm not trying to say i don't support any of her actions because i do, i'm just saying are there things Anne said or did that you don't entirely agree with or would change for the better outcome.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

January 4, 2012
6:07 am
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Anne fan
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From the autumn of 1535 to spring of 1536 I'd have made sure Cromwell stayed on my side. That way I wouldn't have had to get my almoner to preach a sermon comparing myself to Esther whose husband is surrounded by evil counsellors. My mistake was to underestimate the power Cromwell had accumulated for himself and his ability to exercise it. In April 1536 Henry was still determined to get the emperor to recognise me as queen – so he hadn't tired of me enough to get rid of me and I was still young enough to produce a son and, with KoA dead, no one could dispute his right to the succession.

 

Alternatively, I'd have put in place a plot to get rid of Cromwell. No one else had the brains to work out how Henry could get rid of me.

 

(Sorry about the first person writing – the sentiments came easier!)

January 4, 2012
7:11 am
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Sophie1536
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Nothing, because I think even though Anne died the way she did I feel sure knowing from what I know of her she would gladly have lived the life she did knowing that in the end she gave England one of the greatest monarch's that ever lived.

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January 5, 2012
1:26 pm
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Sharon
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Mya-Elise,

My first reaction to your question was…I would have stayed in France!  Not a good answer I know.

 Katherine was the perfect queen.  She did what Henry expected a wife to do.  She was left in charge of the country when Henry was in France and won a decisive battle against the Scottish king.  She carried seven (?) children.  She gave him a beautiful daughter.  She ignored Henry’s affairs with the women of the court. For a while she even ignored the affair with Anne.  She was married to him for 24 years.  She loved her husband.  None of it mattered.  She did not give Henry a son, and for that she suffered.

I thought of all the things that might be considered mistakes by Anne.  For instance her treatment of KOA and Mary.  Her strong opinions.  Her belief that Henry would love her forever.  Her promise to deliver a son, etc., etc., etc. The more I thought about it, the more I figured I really wouldn’t change a thing. There was a uniqueness about Anne, and to change her seems so wrong.  It was not what she did or didn’t do.  No matter what she did or said, she did not give Henry a son, and that was the bottom line with him.

January 5, 2012
8:39 pm
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Mya Elise
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Katherine was the perfect wife, she really really was. And poor Katherine thought Anne would be another knot on the rope (or however you say it!) and it turned around and she got a huge slap in the face. That was the biggest problem too, Anne wasn't that type of girl who would be used then thrown to the side, that was not her, and Katherine was so used to seeing Henry having short flings and then moving on to the next girl and not even thinkin twice about it. But when Anne wasn't just a fling and Katherine's expectations were slammed down then it got real….bad…for everyone.

I think Anne should'nt of guarenteed a son, I don't think it was safe nor right to make that promise. I know Anne couldn't of known because she was still young + fertile and had no reason to think she couldn't have a healthy son.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

January 5, 2012
10:13 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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Mya-Elise. said:

I think Anne should’nt [have] guaranteed a son, I don’t think it was safe nor right to make that promise. I know Anne couldn’t [have] known because she was still young + fertile and had no reason to think she couldn’t have a healthy son.

I don't think it would have mattered. Katharine didn't promise him a son, and she was still held responsible for not giving him a son who survived infancy.

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               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

January 6, 2012
10:54 am
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Mya Elise
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Yeah, I know and Anne had no reason to think she couldn't of given Henry a son and the same with Katherine too. I just don't think it was a good thing to say 'Yeah, once we're married i'll give you a son' because that made Henry want her even more thus wanting the marriage with Katherine gone faster. Henry loved Anne but that promise made him a complete mad man. What i'm trying to say is maybe it wasn't the most wisest decision to make that big of a promise to a man so obsessed with getting a son. Like I said, a little dangerous.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

January 7, 2012
8:57 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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In hindsight, perhaps. Anne had no such knowledge. IMO, it seems a little unfair to criticize well after the fact, knowing what happened and saying, she shouldn't have done this, she shouldn’t have said that… *shrug*

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               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

January 7, 2012
10:37 pm
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Mya Elise
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I'm not trying to criticize anything, honestly i'm not. This is why i was a little concerned about posting this topic because i thought people would get the wrong idea – i'm not trying to say anything Anne did was a mistake or wrong, i'm just seeing what other people would do in they went back and were in Anne's shoes like ideas or mere thoughts. Whoah, this is kinda hard to explain….Embarassed

I'm just saying that things would of been a little different if Anne hadn't of made that promise and maybe it wasn't the greatest decision she had made, but thats my opinion and i'm not judging her in any way shape or form. My overall love and support for Anne isn't gonna change because I say I would do things differently in certain situations of her life.

I'm sorry if any one got the wrong idea and if I offended anyone, I don't mean to. I love Anne and her life because it was so epic and tragic and endlessly interesting which is why i'm here. If i was given the chance to go back and change her life, I probably wouldn't because it was her life and her choices (even though i'd desperately want to save her!), this post is just….ideas and conversation. 

P.S. Sorry if i'm rambling! I just don't want to make anyone upset.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

January 8, 2012
5:10 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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Mya,

There is no need to apologize. I cannot speak for others, but you did not offend me. Your topic was introudced with honesty and consideration. My reply was my opinion, and as Anne, I would not change an thing. My only desire would be to give Henry a son, who survived into adulthood. I never thought you were criticising Anne. Rather I took it that you were interested in other's perceptions of Anne's life choices.

I wish Anne could have lived, saw her daughter grow, and be mother to a ruling Queen, but that was not her fate. As much as I like to project an imagine of the realist, sometimes I believe some of our lives are up to fate. At the end of the day, regardless of what she did, Henry wanted her gone. I am sure she had her regrets near the end. There is some documentation that Anne spoke about her regrets over her treatment of Lady Mary. But, when she was in the moment, her behaviours were predicated on the situation. Never have I considered Anne a bad person; she was a woman trying to survive in a culture of power and paranoia.

There are plenty of things I've done which I regreted after the fact. Given hindsight, I might have said or done something differently, but it would not have changed the trajectory my life's taken. I might have felt less guilt, but I would still be where I am today.

Does any of this make sense?

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

January 8, 2012
2:51 pm
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Bill1978
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As Anne the only thing I would change is probably not having so many men hanging out in my quarters and not be so casual around them. I know I am guilty of sitting there while reading a novel or watching some movie/tv series involving Anne and saying 'Ooh you shouldn't have said that' but I would prefer her to keep saying the things she said. BUT if Smeaton, Dereham etc didn't visit her quarters or if she wasn't so nice to them, then it might have been harder to fabricate the charges levelled against Anne.

January 8, 2012
9:34 pm
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Mya Elise
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I wish the same things, also. It would of been amazing for Anne to live and see her daughter grow up and have that son everyone wanted soo badly. Maybe it is fate or just the way her life turned out to be. I'm actually very afraid of the idea of 'faith' because it's like we had no option or choices to begin with, we just go on this endless road which was already made up for us. But yet it seems comforting in a odd way.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

January 9, 2012
11:55 am
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Sharon
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Mya-Elise,

You post some of the most thought provoking questions on this forum. I think you should just keep on questioning.  I did not take your question as criticism of any sort. 

This was a tough one because I feel there is nothing she could have done that would have changed Henry's mind.  Just like nothing Katherine did made him think twice about what he did to her.  Anne could have had an entirely different personality, but if she didn't give Henry a son, the outcome would have been the same. It wouldn't have mattered whether she promised Henry a son or not. 

I don't dismiss the fact that Anne could have done things differently.  Let's say I did go back as Anne, which makes me shiver to think it; and let's say I did all the things that would please Henry.  I'd get along with Mary.  I wouldn't wish all Spaniards at the bottom of the sea.  I would make sure I stayed friends with Cromwell.  I would trust that Henry knew what he was doing and I would keep my opinions to myself.  Well, I would try.  I wouldn't flirt. I wouldn't promise him a son.  I don't think any of this would have made a bit of a difference.  If I didn't give him the son he so desperately wanted, I'd lose my head anyway.  That's why my initial reaction was to stay in France.  Frown

January 9, 2012
10:03 pm
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Mya Elise
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Thanks Sharon, I really appreciate it.

I agree that the safest decision would of been to stay in France but even if Anne wanted to do that wasn't it not possible due to the marriage plans with Butler? Thats the reason she came back to England anyways. And if not staying in France, then having the orginial marriage plans be successful would have been safest for Anne. If this happen then it wouldn't be very appropriate to chase a married women for nearly a decade, Anne wouldn't of been Henry's mistress and Henry would then have to be forced to look else where, right? – Unless he really did want her that bad and begged and begged until she did something to shut him up. At least with this Butler guy Anne wouldn't of lost her head and probably would have lived a long life raising children, maybe even sons, and being a wife. I know others on this forum think she wouldn't of liked that kind of life, but I think she would have…for some reason I could see her happy without having to be a Queen. I mean if she didn't expect to be Queen anyways so why would she be so unhappy with the marriage? And she wouldn't be a nobody, she'd be a duchess, right? That's certainly not a nobody.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

January 10, 2012
10:36 am
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Sharon
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Very good point about Anne not expecting to be a queen.  I don’t believe she would change a minute of being queen.  I’m sure she had some regrets, but not enough to want to change her entire life. We may have a hard time with it, but she came to love Henry.  It wasn’t young love like I think it was with Percy.  She loved Henry deeply. I don’t think she’d want it to be any different.

  I was being facetious when I said Anne should have stayed in France.  When it came to marrying either Butler or Percy, the choice was not hers to make.  She came home from France on her fathers orders because of a planned betrothal for her to Butler. The marriage to Butler was not to be because of the manipulations of Wolsey, and Norfolk plus a lack of enthusiasm on Thomas Boleyn’s part.  The affair with Percy failed, not due to anything she did, but to the manipulations of Wolsey, Percy’s father, and possibly Henry himself.  We have to consider the times they lived in.  Women were told what to do, and they did it.  

Anne lived in a male dominated society, but she was able to rise higher than she ever dreamed.  I think she was fated to be queen and to die as she did.  Someone in another post said that Anne and George preferred the life they had and wouldn't have wanted to live life any differently than they did. (Paraphrasing, not quoting, sorry.)  I have to agree with this. I think they relished their lives at court.

If she did marry someone else, who is to say she would have had many babies and lived a long happy life?  Would her ability to carry to term have been the same?  Would she have lived through several rough childbirths?  Would Butler have been good to her?  Would Percy?  Would we have ever heard of her?

January 10, 2012
4:40 pm
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Mya Elise
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I don't think Anne regretted her life as Queen either, and your right it was a huge deal to rise as high as she did in that era because women were ordered around 24/7. She must of been really proud of herself. And your questions at the the bottom of your post are completely true, who's to say her life would of been good with Bulter or even Percy? I was just giving an example of a way she might of been happy, whether staying in France or marrying Bulter or getting to marry Percy like she had wanted. One of those options might of been a road to a life of decent happiness but we'll never know for sure.

And I know Anne loved Henry alot which makes her situation all the more tragic because I don't she was able to bask in that love because once they were married it was all about her pregnancy and then once she had Elizabeth it all went down hill. And I don't think she was able to express all her love to Henry while they were in courtship because she really wanted him to take her seriously and she tried really hard to prove to everyone that she wasn't just a girl to be used up and thrown away. I actually share the same worries, I always am trying to prove myself to everyone and make everyone believe I can be good at whatever. It's very exhausting at times,LOL.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

January 11, 2012
12:36 pm
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Sharon
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Mya-Elise, You must be a romantic at heart?  Smile

I read a book recently where the author wrote her view of Anne as being very angry with Percy when he went home with his father and did not fight harder to be with her.  In this book, Anne thought Percy was a coward. She knew he was not the man for her.  He would never be strong enough to take proper care of her.  I cannot remember which book it was, but it was fiction.  I wonder?  Do you think that fits Anne's personality?  She was such a strong person. A fighter who was never willing to give up what she genuinely loved.  Seeing the man who claims to love her, slink away with his tail between his legs, may have been a heavy blow.  She may very well have been angry at the whole lot of them. 

We know Henry certainly had to fight all kinds of battles to win her.  He pursued her for years.  He proved he loved her by changing his life in order to marry her.  At least that is the way she would have seen it. And she loved him for it.  I think Henry took her very seriously.  Unfortunately, Henry became resentful.  He blamed her for everything going wrong. That's the Henry I wish she had seen in the beginning. 

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