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Anne Boleyn's Guilt Or Innocence...
December 25, 2012
11:12 am
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LadyMarie
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Re: the ignorant assertions that Anne Boleyn was totally innocent: This is wrong and totally illogical. If all Henry wanted to do was to get rid of Anne due to the lack of a male heir, then he would have simply divorced her. The fact that he was driven to murder proves something very intense was occurring. Maybe Anne was not cheating on him, but then – maybe she was. In a sense, that’s not important – what is important is that Henry possibly thought she was having extramarital affairs, which might have catapulted him into a homicidal rage. Stop being so smug in your assertions – since those of us people who are alive today in the years 2012 and 2013 were never literally physically present when Anne was alive, no one alive today (2012 and 2013) will ever know the real circumstances, which would have included the possibility she might have had affairs with other guys; maybe she was screwing around – what makes you think that all people in the 1500s were celibates? How ignorant. Now is the time for people to grow up and be more realistic. How ignorant that Anne Boleyn apologists believe they have have a time machine that literally takes them to the 1530s. Come on. Or are these ignorant nitwits conducting séances? Gee, how scientific.

December 25, 2012
11:47 am
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James33
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Merry Christmas LadyMarie, and welcome to the forum- it’s great to have you here :)

May i ask which biographies on Anne you have read? I think the Eric Ives one is the best personally, but i also like The Lady in the Tower by Alison Weir is very good, as our the six wives books by David Starkey, Antonia Fraser, David Loades and the book on 1536 by Suzannah Lipscomb, i have the George Bernard book and am looking forward to starting that in the new year :)

Are the Tudors your main interest in history? Our are you more into other periods?

December 25, 2012
12:14 pm
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LadyMarie
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Thank you for your reply. Yes, the Tudor family are my main interest; I have been studying them since I saw the BBC series “The Six Wives Of Henry VIII”, which was broadcast on U.S. television in approximately 1970, when I was a young girl. For me, this interest grew more and more as the years went on; shortly after the broadcast of “The Six Wives Of Henry VIII”, there was a display at the Los Angeles County Museum Of Art on Wilshire Blvd. regarding the costumes worn by the lead actresses in this series, which further peaked my interest. A few years later, my father bought me a book about Anne Boleyn and her cousin Catherine (or Katherine) Howard, called “Murder Most Royal”, by Jean Plaidy. I have been devoted to this era ever since. The writer Norah Lofts wrote a very definitive and accurate biography about Anne Boleyn (including Anne’s possible interest in witchcraft), simply entitled “Anne Boleyn”, which is still in print. “The Rose Without A Thorn” is a very accurate biography about the very sensual Catherine (or Katherine, or Katheryn) Howard. I’m very interested in George Barnard’s book about Anne Boleyn, since it has some new information about her.

December 25, 2012
1:37 pm
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Boleyn
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Yes Anne was innocent. Her only crime was falling in love with the odious bastard called Henry Tudor.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 25, 2012
8:13 pm
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Anyanka
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Poor Anne…Henry and Cromwell really preformed a hatchet job on her legacy and memory by those fake charges.

Henry couldn’t simply annul his marriage to Anne since that would call his annulment of his first marriage into question and he didn’t want that being dragged back up.

The total removal of Anne and her faction was necessary since she had no real backers in E|urope who could protect her like Katherine. Fake charges that made Henry a total innocent victim of the scheming of his wife …this woman who tried to evade him for several years was suddenly a sex-driven, bed-hopping, magic-dabbling,multi-murdering poisoner traitor for whom no evil was no trivial to enact.

It was a total fabrication designed to send shudders of horror and revulsion through the English court against Anne and her faction with the added advantage of ensuring that the court knew that no matter how high you were, Henry still could get rid of you forever.

It's always bunnies.

December 27, 2012
3:42 pm
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Olga
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It would be more illogical to assume a woman who had so little privacy that the entire court knew when she was menstruating would be able to have an affair without the hundreds of people that surrounded her daily wouldn’t have noticed. Unless you follow mantel’s train of thought that she somehow escaped her child-bed to shag someone. Which of course, would have again gone unnoticed with all of her ladies milling about.
I do believe most of the ignorant nitwits like Starkey and Ives used contemporary evidence in their research, not a time machine. But I’m afraid the Bernard book might not be very scientific, he did base his evidence against Anne on a poem. Which is about as scientific as Warnicke basing her theory on the homosexual ring of men surrounding Anne on George Boleyn giving Mark Smeaton a book.
Only the good Doctor could tell us, of course.

December 27, 2012
4:33 pm
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Sharon
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Olga,

Laugh

December 27, 2012
5:57 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Poor Anne…Henry and Cromwell really preformed a hatchet job on her legacy and memory by those fake charges.

Henry couldn’t simply annul his marriage to Anne since that would call his annulment of his first marriage into question and he didn’t want that being dragged back up.

The total removal of Anne and her faction was necessary since she had no real backers in E|urope who could protect her like Katherine. Fake charges that made Henry a total innocent victim of the scheming of his wife …this woman who tried to evade him for several years was suddenly a sex-driven, bed-hopping, magic-dabbling,multi-murdering poisoner traitor for whom no evil was no trivial to enact.

It was a total fabrication designed to send shudders of horror and revulsion through the English court against Anne and her faction with the added advantage of ensuring that the court knew that no matter how high you were, Henry still could get rid of you forever.

By trying to blacken Anne as a nyphomaniac, a incestious whore and basically someone who should have been buried in a .Y. shaped coffin all Henry did, was make Anne Infamous. Lets face it of all the Queens of England there have been, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth (her daughter) are perhaps the most talked about, and have been since they first appeared in history.
There aren’t many books of the Conqueror’s wife Matilda of Flanders, who was the first universally recognised Queen of England.

Yeah we all remember Henry as being the only King to have 6 wifes and chopped and changed them as the weather, but aside from that his other wives really aren’t as talked about as much as Anne Boleyn are they? and neither are any other Queens

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 28, 2012
1:00 am
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Olga
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Sharon Laugh

December 28, 2012
3:00 am
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Anyanka
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Olga said

It would be more illogical to assume a woman who had so little privacy that the entire court knew when she was menstruating would be able to have an affair without the hundreds of people that surrounded her daily wouldn’t have noticed. Unless you follow mantel’s train of thought that she somehow escaped her child-bed to shag someone. Which of course, would have again gone unnoticed with all of her ladies milling about.
I do believe most of the ignorant nitwits like Starkey and Ives used contemporary evidence in their research, not a time machine. But I’m afraid the Bernard book might not be very scientific, he did base his evidence against Anne on a poem. Which is about as scientific as Warnicke basing her theory on the homosexual ring of men surrounding Anne on George Boleyn giving Mark Smeaton a book.
Only the good Doctor could tell us, of course.

I don’t recall Chapyus ever mentioning Anne running nilly-willy illectly round men and he had several of her ladies and maids on his pay-roll to gather the smallest details of her life.

Had any-one had such allegatons about Anne during her queenship, the whole of the European courts would have been buzzing with innuendo and rumour. The fact that none of Anne’s many enemies had that information before the start of May 1536 is highly telling.

The good Doctor managed to get Amy married to Henry by accident on her and Rory’s wedding anniversery makes me doubt he could actually manage such a subtle task….

It's always bunnies.

December 28, 2012
3:17 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Anyanka said

Poor Anne…Henry and Cromwell really preformed a hatchet job on her legacy and memory by those fake charges.

Henry couldn’t simply annul his marriage to Anne since that would call his annulment of his first marriage into question and he didn’t want that being dragged back up.

The total removal of Anne and her faction was necessary since she had no real backers in E|urope who could protect her like Katherine. Fake charges that made Henry a total innocent victim of the scheming of his wife …this woman who tried to evade him for several years was suddenly a sex-driven, bed-hopping, magic-dabbling,multi-murdering poisoner traitor for whom no evil was no trivial to enact.

It was a total fabrication designed to send shudders of horror and revulsion through the English court against Anne and her faction with the added advantage of ensuring that the court knew that no matter how high you were, Henry still could get rid of you forever.

By trying to blacken Anne as a nyphomaniac, a incestious whore and basically someone who should have been buried in a .Y. shaped coffin all Henry did, was make Anne Infamous. Lets face it of all the Queens of England there have been, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth (her daughter) are perhaps the most talked about, and have been since they first appeared in history.
There aren’t many books of the Conqueror’s wife Matilda of Flanders, who was the first universally recognised Queen of England.

Yeah we all remember Henry as being the only King to have 6 wifes and chopped and changed them as the weather, but aside from that his other wives really aren’t as talked about as much as Anne Boleyn are they? and neither are any other Queens

Let’s face it, Henry’s lovelife is facinating..his father’s wasn’t…Edward IV was infamous as a womaniser as was Edward VII..Both thier fathers were more restrainted.

There have always been some men and women who blaze through the public conciousness..

Cleopatra IX, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Katherine Swynford all known for being sexual women whose behaviour was out of thier time.

Historically women have been marginalised since their main function was the hearth and home. Tradionally, in most civilisations, men held all the power, socially, politically and economically.

It was a rare woman who could move outside her sphere and excerise her own power. Mary’s advisors were worried her husband would take power in England and jostled to place a suitable man in her sights.

Several years later, Elizabeth went though the same events. Her advisors just wanted her to marry and have suitable man to do the work while she sprogged a few heirs and spares.

We have changed a lot socially since the end of Queen Victoria’s reign. and that was just over 110 years ago. Henry would be pooping his drawers at seeing the difference in the 500 yrs since his first son was born.

It's always bunnies.

December 28, 2012
6:18 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Boleyn said

Anyanka said

Poor Anne…Henry and Cromwell really preformed a hatchet job on her legacy and memory by those fake charges.

Henry couldn’t simply annul his marriage to Anne since that would call his annulment of his first marriage into question and he didn’t want that being dragged back up.

The total removal of Anne and her faction was necessary since she had no real backers in E|urope who could protect her like Katherine. Fake charges that made Henry a total innocent victim of the scheming of his wife …this woman who tried to evade him for several years was suddenly a sex-driven, bed-hopping, magic-dabbling,multi-murdering poisoner traitor for whom no evil was no trivial to enact.

It was a total fabrication designed to send shudders of horror and revulsion through the English court against Anne and her faction with the added advantage of ensuring that the court knew that no matter how high you were, Henry still could get rid of you forever.

By trying to blacken Anne as a nyphomaniac, a incestious whore and basically someone who should have been buried in a .Y. shaped coffin all Henry did, was make Anne Infamous. Lets face it of all the Queens of England there have been, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth (her daughter) are perhaps the most talked about, and have been since they first appeared in history.
There aren’t many books of the Conqueror’s wife Matilda of Flanders, who was the first universally recognised Queen of England.

Yeah we all remember Henry as being the only King to have 6 wifes and chopped and changed them as the weather, but aside from that his other wives really aren’t as talked about as much as Anne Boleyn are they? and neither are any other Queens

Let’s face it, Henry’s lovelife is facinating..his father’s wasn’t…Edward IV was infamous as a womaniser as was Edward VII..Both thier fathers were more restrainted.

There have always been some men and women who blaze through the public conciousness..

Cleopatra IX, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Katherine Swynford all known for being sexual women whose behaviour was out of thier time.

Historically women have been marginalised since their main function was the hearth and home. Tradionally, in most civilisations, men held all the power, socially, politically and economically.

It was a rare woman who could move outside her sphere and excerise her own power. Mary’s advisors were worried her husband would take power in England and jostled to place a suitable man in her sights.

Several years later, Elizabeth went though the same events. Her advisors just wanted her to marry and have suitable man to do the work while she sprogged a few heirs and spares.

We have changed a lot socially since the end of Queen Victoria’s reign. and that was just over 110 years ago. Henry would be pooping his drawers at seeing the difference in the 500 yrs since his first son was born.

Yes Anyanka, you are totally right. Woman’s equality has come a long way since Queen Victoria. However the War years played a great part in getting men to see that woman were just as good at doing the jobs they could do. Whilst their men were away woman worked on the land, doing what was considered a male only job, they worked in factories and worked in hospitals and even qualified as Doctors etc. It was a case of them having to it otherwise the country would have ground to a complete halt. Although in today’s sociaty woman hold a lot more sway then they did do there are still a few no go areas for woman that need a radical shake up. Woman Bishops is one of them, again woman have proved that they are just as capable at doing the religious duties which were up until recently (in the last 10 years?) was considered a male dominated club.
We have come a long way in woman’s equality rights wise but there is always room for improvement.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 30, 2012
9:47 pm
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Bernard bases his research against Anne on a poem??? Dear god that is shameful, and from an academic as well… But what’s even more worrying is that Suzannah Lipscomb in a review of Bernard’s book on Anne calls it ‘meticulously researched’- slightly concerning, although she does mention that it’s like he’s deliberately trying to be provocative.

Personally i have always believed that Anne was/is innocent and all the books i have read from Ives, Starkey, Fraser, Weir etc have produced really good evidence that proves it.

January 3, 2013
4:08 am
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Anyanka
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Indeed James..the only thing Anne was guilty of was not fulfulling Henry’s wishes. She didn’t give him the son he wanted or was she the kind of demure and undemanding wife that he was used to..

She was destined to fail Henry’s rigorous hurdles. He kept moving the goal-posts since what he wanted in a potential mistress wasn’t what he expected in a wife.

It's always bunnies.

January 4, 2013
9:22 am
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James33 said

Bernard bases his research against Anne on a poem??? Dear god that is shameful, and from an academic as well… But what’s even more worrying is that Suzannah Lipscomb in a review of Bernard’s book on Anne calls it ‘meticulously researched’- slightly concerning, although she does mention that it’s like he’s deliberately trying to be provocative.

Suzannah seems very nice Laugh She might not like to hurt people’s feelings.

January 4, 2013
10:30 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Indeed James..the only thing Anne was guilty of was not fulfulling Henry’s wishes. She didn’t give him the son he wanted or was she the kind of demure and undemanding wife that he was used to..

She was destined to fail Henry’s rigorous hurdles. He kept moving the goal-posts since what he wanted in a potential mistress wasn’t what he expected in a wife.

Agreed Anyanka.. Tears and Tantrums were accepted if you were a mistress, but when you became a wife you were expected to sit and sing sweetly for your husband, and accept the tears and tantrums from your husband instead, and have sons by the bucket load too. Anne wasn’t going to take Henry’s crap lying down and he simply couldn’t stomach being told what to do by anyone least of all his wife. He wanted a “yes dear” wife.
Mistresses could dictate terms just as long as he got his pleasure.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 6, 2013
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Olga said

James33 said

Bernard bases his research against Anne on a poem??? Dear god that is shameful, and from an academic as well… But what’s even more worrying is that Suzannah Lipscomb in a review of Bernard’s book on Anne calls it ‘meticulously researched’- slightly concerning, although she does mention that it’s like he’s deliberately trying to be provocative.

Suzannah seems very nice Laugh She might not like to hurt people’s feelings.

I agree, it’s not easy reviewing other people’s work- especially your own peers, you can often get accused of being bitter, jealous, nasty etc. I think the fact that she said he was being ‘deliberately provocative and knows it’ said a lot :)

January 14, 2013
1:26 am
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LadyMarie said

The writer Norah Lofts wrote a very definitive and accurate biography about Anne Boleyn (including Anne’s possible interest in witchcraft), simply entitled “Anne Boleyn”, which is still in print. .

Maybe you should read some biographies written by actual historians rather than a romantic novelist! Wink Norah Lofts falls into the latter category, and her biography of Anne was neither accurate nor definitive. I’ve read it, and from an academic point of view it is abysmal. Try reading Eric Ives, who was the foremost and rigorously academic biographer of her. Nearly all the genuine historians consider Anne innocent based on evidence that exists from her own time. You are right, we don’t have a time machine, nor are we ‘smug in our assertions’, but the evidence available to us does strongly suggest that yes, she was innocent. Not a saint, but innocent of the crimes of which she was accused. Too many people form their opinions of Anne from historical novels (or supposedly ‘factual’ books written by them) rather than reading real histories.

January 14, 2013
10:26 pm
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Boleyn said

Anyanka said

Poor Anne…Henry and Cromwell really preformed a hatchet job on her legacy and memory by those fake charges.

Henry couldn’t simply annul his marriage to Anne since that would call his annulment of his first marriage into question and he didn’t want that being dragged back up.

The total removal of Anne and her faction was necessary since she had no real backers in E|urope who could protect her like Katherine. Fake charges that made Henry a total innocent victim of the scheming of his wife …this woman who tried to evade him for several years was suddenly a sex-driven, bed-hopping, magic-dabbling,multi-murdering poisoner traitor for whom no evil was no trivial to enact.

It was a total fabrication designed to send shudders of horror and revulsion through the English court against Anne and her faction with the added advantage of ensuring that the court knew that no matter how high you were, Henry still could get rid of you forever.

By trying to blacken Anne as a nyphomaniac, a incestious whore and basically someone who should have been buried in a .Y. shaped coffin all Henry did, was make Anne Infamous. Lets face it of all the Queens of England there have been, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth (her daughter) are perhaps the most talked about, and have been since they first appeared in history.
There aren’t many books of the Conqueror’s wife Matilda of Flanders, who was the first universally recognised Queen of England.

Yeah we all remember Henry as being the only King to have 6 wifes and chopped and changed them as the weather, but aside from that his other wives really aren’t as talked about as much as Anne Boleyn are they? and neither are any other Queens

How could Anne have turned into a nyphomaniac AFTER her marriage, if she had spent some 7 years during Henry’s courtship of her while she remained chaste? I agree Bolyne, her character was totally besmerged by the EIGHTH!

January 15, 2013
12:20 pm
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Boleyn
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Barnettbuff said

Boleyn said

Anyanka said

Poor Anne…Henry and Cromwell really preformed a hatchet job on her legacy and memory by those fake charges.

Henry couldn’t simply annul his marriage to Anne since that would call his annulment of his first marriage into question and he didn’t want that being dragged back up.

The total removal of Anne and her faction was necessary since she had no real backers in E|urope who could protect her like Katherine. Fake charges that made Henry a total innocent victim of the scheming of his wife …this woman who tried to evade him for several years was suddenly a sex-driven, bed-hopping, magic-dabbling,multi-murdering poisoner traitor for whom no evil was no trivial to enact.

It was a total fabrication designed to send shudders of horror and revulsion through the English court against Anne and her faction with the added advantage of ensuring that the court knew that no matter how high you were, Henry still could get rid of you forever.

By trying to blacken Anne as a nyphomaniac, a incestious whore and basically someone who should have been buried in a .Y. shaped coffin all Henry did, was make Anne Infamous. Lets face it of all the Queens of England there have been, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth (her daughter) are perhaps the most talked about, and have been since they first appeared in history.
There aren’t many books of the Conqueror’s wife Matilda of Flanders, who was the first universally recognised Queen of England.

Yeah we all remember Henry as being the only King to have 6 wifes and chopped and changed them as the weather, but aside from that his other wives really aren’t as talked about as much as Anne Boleyn are they? and neither are any other Queens

How could Anne have turned into a nyphomaniac AFTER her marriage, if she had spent some 7 years during Henry’s courtship of her while she remained chaste? I agree Bolyne, her character was totally besmerged by the EIGHTH!

Yep, and that’s what makes her trial and her conviction all the biggest farce in history. I mean the trial at Blackfriars against COA was laughable, raking up evidence (loosely worded) which was almost 30 years old was bad enough, but the evidence that Cromwell invented and twisted was just pathetic. Although Henry got the result (through bribery and threats) he wanted. He certainly didn’t come out of it well did he? Save for AOC who was railroaded sort of, into marriage with the fat tub of lard all of his other Queens were English. No forgien princess wanted anything to do with him. Marie de Guise who had been procrastinating about her marriage proposal from James V suddenly made her mind up to marry him at once when she found out Henry was salavating over her.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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