Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
After Annes Death
December 3, 2010
9:21 am
Avatar
Clarebear
Boston, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 130
Member Since:
November 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I got thinking today…. I cant believe that NOBODY arranged for a coffin or casket or anything for Anne's body after she was executed.  Whos job do you think this should have been?  Cromwell's?  You would think that someone would have organised something appropriate for the Queen of England to be laid to rest in.  Do you think this was so sort of snub towards Anne or a case of someone else thought someone else had dealt with this?  Its a maddening thought that poor Anne was just put in an old arrow chest YellFrown 

Why not join my page on Facebook – Tudor Dynasty 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/.....9213293551

December 3, 2010
9:53 am
Avatar
DuchessofBrittany
Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 846
Member Since:
June 7, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I agree, Clarebear. The only way I can rationalise it is that Henry wanted rid of Anne so desperatly, that what her remains were placed in was not even important. Anne had become a persona non grata even before she was dead. Quite sad, really. Every other aspect of Anne's death was arranged in advance, you would think a proper coffin be provided too.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

December 3, 2010
11:08 am
Avatar
Anne
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 92
Member Since:
September 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think Henry as an Alpha Male he was livid with the audacity of a woman cheating on him and so viciously as Anne was reported of having(well the accusations against her were  ridiculous but I personally think that Henry was not the brightest one,given and his rage at that moment).In my opinion Henry wasn't the one behind her fall(find me a man who would gladly be called cuckold!)but let himself to buy it.Even nowdays and with everyday men you see that if a man gets hurt by a woman he loved he would react badly.I mean,imagine being a man,a king and someone of Henry's character…There is evidence that your wife,the woman you loved once like a madman has been sleeping around…He saw red and this was propably the desired effect…He wanted her gone,in pain,humiliated.And haven't you seen how men react when betrayed,when they are cheated on?I've seen this many times,when someone was in love and the girl he loved treat him bad,cheated on him or get another boyfriend fast enough after the break-up.They are called evil little bitches(this is quoted by a friend of mine whose ex girlfriend foolled around while together),wh*res,those whose names are not to be spoken.Men,tend to be more sensitive when they actually love and usually the object of their once affection tends to become an object of hate or dislike…I am not trying to justify Henry but to explain why Anne became a persona non grata,why he wanted her so badly crashed,why he wanted to vanish her.I believe had Henry been the mastermind behind this he wouldn't be so ruthless and would try to humiliate Anne more.Instead he wanted her gone,vanished…This whole treatment speaks volumes to me…Those who made the evidence apparently knew Henry well and in the end it didn't matter if she was guilty or not,since he would be enraged even at the notion of her unfaithfulness.It broke his heart,his pride,his vanity and emasculated him.

After all,he had exactly the same reaction and worse with K.Howard,against whom the evidence was stronger(I can't say for sure if she indeed have a sexual relationship with Culpepper and not a platonic one,it always struck me as a teenage girl's infatuation with a handsome man,where the smallest signs of interest make the heart beat fasterEmbarassedSmile).On Katheryn again,Henry also reacted the same way…He let her be dragged by his guards,the warrant said something among the lines that she was a wh*re,put in spikes for display Culpepper's and Dereham's heads,the same post-death treatment with Anne,the destruction of all that was left of her….And exactly,as Anne's body was denied a proper coffin,Katheryn's remains were buried with lime so her remains decayed faster…Both bodies were disrespected(I read somewhere that they were buried without their clothes because they belonged to him),efforts to completely vanish them(lime and no proper coffin).Proof that these women ever existed meant that their betrayal was real and it was something that he didn't want.Although I can see his motives,this cruelty scares me

December 3, 2010
12:02 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2114
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I agree.  It is maddening to think that no one had thought to have a coffin for Anne.  Do we know if any of the other people who were charged with treason were buried in coffins? Perhaps, because Anne had been found guilty of treason, she would not have received a proper burial in a coffin.  I just assumed that Anne's ladies took it upon themselves to put her in the arrow chest.    I don't know for sure.  As far as Henry is concerned, he had ordered the executioner from Calais. That was his one and only magnanimous gesture to the proceedings. After that he put the sordid affair out of his mind and concentrated on his next wife. 

December 4, 2010
6:29 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2333
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Exactly, we don't know for sure if it was deliberate  or an oversight.

 

My personal opinion was that it was an oversight and understandably so. There was so much which needed to be done in a few weeks that small details were overlooked.Of course, that  doesn't make it any better in our eyes at least.

It's always bunnies.

December 5, 2010
7:56 am
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 595
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anyanka said:

Exactly, we don't know for sure if it was deliberate  or an oversight.

 

My personal opinion was that it was an oversight and understandably so. There was so much which needed to be done in a few weeks that small details were overlooked.Of course, that  doesn't make it any better in our eyes at least.


Yeah, planning a betrothal feast really sucks up time and resources!

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

December 5, 2010
9:16 am
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

So I went looking for some information about treason executions in general and, thanks to some awesome folks over on the Tudors Wiki, here is what I've been able to discern:

1)  When St. Peter ad Vincula was excavated, they found something like 1500 bodies buried there, most of whom were buried without a coffin of any sort.  Of those 1500, only 33 were identified (this information comes from a book published in 1877 by Doyne C. Bell about the excavation and restoration of the chapel and its occupants).  Most of the people who were buried were simply thrown on top of those below them.  Of course, when the chapel was restored, they lacked modern day forensic techniques which probably would have enabled them to identify more bodies.  So, the fact that Anne was buried in ANYTHING at all–even if it was an arrowbox–speaks volumes to her poor ladies.  From what I understand, the ladies who waited on her in the tower were not sympathetic to the Reformation, but something must have happened during her stay in the tower to make them think highly of Anne herself.  The long and short of it is that neither Henry nor Cromwell was going to worry themselves over something like a coffin when it wasn't the standard.

2)  The reason for this seems perfectly reasonable by Tudor standards:  People who were executed in the Tower were criminals.  Criminals didn't receive proper burials.  It didn't matter that Anne was, in fact, innocent of her charges, she had been tried (by a kangaroo court) and found guilty–thus, her fate was that of all people who were executed by the Crown.  She was not queen when she was executed–Cranmer had secured her divorce from Henry a couple of days before her execution.

3)  Apparently during the excavation, they located the remains of what was/is believed to be Anne's body among some pieces of elder wood which is, apparently, the wood that the arrow box was made.  There is no mention of any clothing remnants.  While it's entirely possible that the clothing had simply deteriorated over the years, I find it more probable that Anne was buried with no clothing (the ermine of her cloak should have survived a respectably lengthy amount of time).  Apparently Eric Ives says that her body was taken to the chapel where her head was wrapped in a white cloth, her clothing removed, and her body wrapped in a white sheet before being placed in the arrow box.  If I'm not mistaken, in cases of treason, all costs incurred by the accused had to be paid for either by the accused themselves or their families.  I'm sure this extended even to the clothes on their backs.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

December 5, 2010
12:09 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2333
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Impish_Impulse said:

Anyanka said:

Exactly, we don't know for sure if it was deliberate  or an oversight.

 

My personal opinion was that it was an oversight and understandably so. There was so much which needed to be done in a few weeks that small details were overlooked.Of course, that  doesn't make it any better in our eyes at least.


Yeah, planning a betrothal feast really sucks up time and resources!
 


Sorry I should have clarified. The details were overlooked by Kingston and his officers in the Tower.

It's always bunnies.

December 5, 2010
5:54 pm
Avatar
Boleynfan
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 503
Member Since:
August 3, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I suppose getting a coffin for the King's disgraced wife was not at the top of anyone's list. They just wanted her dead…ughh it makes me mad to think about it all! Yell

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

December 6, 2010
2:51 am
Avatar
Clarebear
Boston, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 130
Member Since:
November 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks for the info MegC…. very interesting indeed !!!

Why not join my page on Facebook – Tudor Dynasty 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/.....9213293551

December 7, 2010
10:39 am
Avatar
Bella44
New Zealand
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 933
Member Since:
January 9, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It would have been the job of Kingston and his underlings to arrange for burial and I'm not sure why a proper coffin at least wasn't provided.  Anne may have been a criminal in the eyes of the law, but she was far from 'common'.  Maybe it was the odd situation of having a Queen of England put to death that sent everyone into a bit of a spin, and that simple (yet vital!) detail was overlooked.  Anne's clothes would have gone to her ladies and perhaps even the executioner himself, as it was customary for the headsman to receive a criminals clothes as part of their pay.  But I think her belongings goings to her ladies in Anne's case more likely.

December 7, 2010
7:51 pm
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If something like that were normally done, then it probably would have been Kingston's responsibility.  Clearly Anne was an unusual execution, but given the political climate, no one was going to do anything out-of-the-ordinary for her.  I have a suspicion that Kingston didn't know whether to wind his butt or scratch his watch in this situation–I mean, do you break the status quo and give the queen (or, in Anne's case, former queen) a proper burial which I'm sure would bring down the wrath of Henry, or do you do what you've always done and fly under the King's radar.  

I say thank god for Anne's ladies who did the best they could under the circumstances.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

December 7, 2010
9:26 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2333
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Which then leads to the question..

 

How was KH buried? In a coffin or not? Was her lack of being crowned Queen Consort lead to her being buried as a common traitor?

 

And since Anne was crowned with St Edward's crown rather than that of the queen consort, how does that link into her post-mortum treatment?

It's always bunnies.

December 8, 2010
1:39 am
Avatar
Clarebear
Boston, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 130
Member Since:
November 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I was thinking…. if it was Kingston's job to arrange for a coffin/burial, the fact that he obviously didn't, do you think that he might have thought that Henry might pardon Anne and not execute her after all? 

Why not join my page on Facebook – Tudor Dynasty 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/.....9213293551

December 8, 2010
7:07 am
Avatar
Anne
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 92
Member Since:
September 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Clarebear said:

I was thinking…. if it was Kingston's job to arrange for a coffin/burial, the fact that he obviously didn't, do you think that he might have thought that Henry might pardon Anne and not execute her after all? 


Actually this seems as a logical explanation to me…I mean if all Europe and European royalty was surprised and horrified at the way things progressed in England(I believe Anne was the first annointed Queen to be excecuted),everyone expected her to be banished,sent at a nunnery,imprisoned,even murdered(Anne,I read,feared that while in Tower awaiting her trial,that they might poisoned her) it seems very logical if Kingston was also surprised and perhaps waited for orders of not processing with the execution(given and the delays and postponements)

December 8, 2010
11:31 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2114
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Since others found guilty of treason were buried without coffins, I'd say Anne would have received the same treatment.  We may think it is wrong because she had once been a Queen; but she was not Queen when she was executed.  She was considered a traitor. The same rules applied to her as they did to all condemned traitors.  I doubt if Kingston provided coffins for any of them since during the excavation in the 1800's found that bodies were buried on top of bodies, their bones intermingled. The only one I have heard of that may have been buried in something was Anne. They did find wood in her grave. (and possibly the young Princes (found 1600's) but you can't count them since they were murdered and their bodies hidden.) I doubt if Henry even gave a thought to ordering a coffin for Anne.  She was a traitor in his eyes and she deserved the death appropriated to traitors. Nothing more. If it wasn't for the women who were with her during this time, she would not have been buried in anything either. It seems they had some sort of respect and/or pity for her.  As to Catherine Howard's body, I really couldn't find anything.  I found her execution, but nothing on how she was buried.  I do remember reading that her bones were destroyed by lime. Why would they do that? Do not know if this is true or not.

December 8, 2010
12:39 pm
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sharon said:

Since others found guilty of treason were buried without coffins, I'd say Anne would have received the same treatment.  We may think it is wrong because she had once been a Queen; but she was not Queen when she was executed.  She was considered a traitor. The same rules applied to her as they did to all condemned traitors.  I doubt if Kingston provided coffins for any of them since during the excavation in the 1800's found that bodies were buried on top of bodies, their bones intermingled. The only one I have heard of that may have been buried in something was Anne. They did find wood in her grave. (and possibly the young Princes (found 1600's) but you can't count them since they were murdered and their bodies hidden.) I doubt if Henry even gave a thought to ordering a coffin for Anne.  She was a traitor in his eyes and she deserved the death appropriated to traitors. Nothing more. If it wasn't for the women who were with her during this time, she would not have been buried in anything either. It seems they had some sort of respect and/or pity for her.  As to Catherine Howard's body, I really couldn't find anything.  I found her execution, but nothing on how she was buried.  I do remember reading that her bones were destroyed by lime. Why would they do that? Do not know if this is true or not.


Here!  Here!  Sharon!! I think it's a travesty that Anne wasn't given a proper burial, but it doesn't change the facts of the situation.  I don't think anyone overlooked anything, I think she was intended to be buried with no proper coffin.  Tragic and sad and malicious, but true.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

December 9, 2010
3:00 am
Avatar
Claire
Admin
Forum Posts: 958
Member Since:
February 16, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

MegC said:

3)  Apparently during the excavation, they located the remains of what was/is believed to be Anne's body among some pieces of elder wood which is, apparently, the wood that the arrow box was made.  There is no mention of any clothing remnants.  While it's entirely possible that the clothing had simply deteriorated over the years, I find it more probable that Anne was buried with no clothing (the ermine of her cloak should have survived a respectably lengthy amount of time).  Apparently Eric Ives says that her body was taken to the chapel where her head was wrapped in a white cloth, her clothing removed, and her body wrapped in a white sheet before being placed in the arrow box.  If I'm not mistaken, in cases of treason, all costs incurred by the accused had to be paid for either by the accused themselves or their families.  I'm sure this extended even to the clothes on their backs.


Hi MegC,

Thanks for finding all that out. I actually have an antique copy of Doyne C Bell's book, which includes Dr Mouat's examinations of the bodies found, and there were no pieces of wood found with the body thought to have been Anne's. I wrote an article about it all at http://www.theanneboleynfiles……leyn/6426/

I think Anne's ladies wanted to treat Anne with respect and that's why they used the chest as a coffin.

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

December 9, 2010
3:05 am
Avatar
Claire
Admin
Forum Posts: 958
Member Since:
February 16, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sharon said:

I do remember reading that her bones were destroyed by lime. Why would they do that? Do not know if this is true or not.


Yes, the Victorians reported that lime was indeed found in the area where Catherine Howard was thought to have been buried and they concluded that the absence of a body in that area was due to the use of lime, combined with Catherine's youth (young bones are softer and more cartilaginous and so disintegrate more rapidly).

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

December 9, 2010
6:51 am
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 595
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bella44 said:

Anne's clothes would have gone to her ladies and perhaps even the executioner himself, as it was customary for the headsman to receive a criminals clothes as part of their pay.  But I think her belongings goings to her ladies in Anne's case more likely.


In most cases, I believe that the clothing, etc. would have been part of the executioner's pay. But I thought that in this case, Henry actually 'redeemed' her belongings by paying their value in money, instead. I always wondered if it was because he didn't want any souvenirs or relics of Anne floating around, if he wished to destroy them, or if he offered them to Jane. There's evidence that Elizabeth may have received some of her mother's jewels. I'm going to have to hunt for where I read that.

 

ETA: Found it. In the footnotes of Ives' The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn, note #10 for Chapter 24: Finale.
“The Crown redeemed Anne's jewels and apparel from Kingston for £100.”

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

Forum Timezone: Europe/London
Most Users Ever Online: 214
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 1
Top Posters:
Anyanka: 2333
Boleyn: 2285
Sharon: 2114
Bella44: 933
DuchessofBrittany: 846
Mya Elise: 781
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1
Members: 425803
Moderators: 0
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 13
Topics: 1679
Posts: 22775
Newest Members:
Administrators: Claire: 958