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Descendants of Mary Boleyn.
October 6, 2012
5:58 pm
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Boleyn
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Barnettbuff said

Thanks Olga and Boleyn,
Perhaps this helps lighten my view of a possible ancestor, (Mary Boleyn)!Smile What you say makes some sense to me.
On a related subject: something which keeps nagging at me —– How and why did Anne Boleyn keep Henry “at bay” for some 6 years during their relationship before giving in to a sexual relationship? If they were together so much during that time, it is hard to believe Henry didn’t force himself upon her, or being young and (how shall I say) prime of life, Anne didnot accept Henry’s advances? It really seems like a very long time “in waiting” for a proper marriage before sex. Any thoughts?

Larry

This is a good one Larry and it’s something i’ve pondered about. I think Anne was just that sort of person she was able to keep self control. I also feel that she may have thought Henry was promising her everthing just to get her into bed and she could see what he was up to and basically said “Listen fellow if you want me in your bed then it’s all or nothing ” I think she must at times found it very difficult to keep him at bay, which was probably why she used to go away from court sometimes, just to regain her composure and self control.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 6, 2012
8:36 pm
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Sharon
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Barnettbuff,
While in France, Mary never gained any notoriety or infamy as a royal mistress. There is no record of people talking about her affair with the french king, nor did she have a nasty reputation at the french court. (For that matter she wasn’t talked about at the English court either) When everything was falling apart for the Boleyn’s in 1536, the papal nuncio of France, Rudolph Pio wrote that “Francois had known Mary for a great whore.” He writes, “He knew her here in France.” Yet he did not specify that these words came from Francois. Knowing Francois’ reputation with women I would say the affair with Mary was quite brief.
William Carey was close to Henry. In fact, I think William was related to the king. I am of the belief that Henry’s affair with Mary was short and sweet. I personally think both of the Carey children were William’s children. Just my opinion. I do think Lettice, and even Catherine Carey are similar in looks to Elizabeth through Mary and Anne, not Henry. Somebody mentioned once that they thought Henry Carey was Henry’s son because he looked like him, but that was one man’s opinion and he didn’t have any proof one way or the other.
Everyone thinks that Anne held out for marriage and wouldn’t bed Henry until she was his wife. I think Henry had as much to do with the waiting period as Anne did. Anne certainly was protective of her maidenhood; but Henry would have wanted to make sure that she did not get pregnant with his child before they were married. He did not want another bastard. He wanted Anne to be the mother of his legal heir. Having sex was out of the question until they were married. Neither one of them thought it would take so long for the marriage to take place.

October 6, 2012
11:37 pm
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Anyanka
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I think Anne didn’t sleep with Henry until the last minute when marriage was totally in sight.

Whether that was during the Calais visit or following the marriage in Jan is up for debate, thought he romantic in me thinks that there was a ceremony in Calais and then the couple could follow the protocols for acccepting a new queen into the country.

It's always bunnies.

October 6, 2012
11:52 pm
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Olga
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Sharon said
Everyone thinks that Anne held out for marriage and wouldn’t bed Henry until she was his wife. I think Henry had as much to do with the waiting period as Anne did. Anne certainly was protective of her maidenhood; but Henry would have wanted to make sure that she did not get pregnant with his child before they were married. He did not want another bastard. He wanted Anne to be the mother of his legal heir. Having sex was out of the question until they were married. Neither one of them thought it would take so long for the marriage to take place.

I agree 100% with this. Earlier when Henry was trying to get his divorce approved by Rome he certainly wouldn’t want to jeopardise this by proof of infidelity. They did try as far as I know, to prove it, which I think is why Henry’s letters to Anne were stolen. They of course proved nothing.

It may be hard for us to fathom waiting seven years to have sex with your partner but those were different times.

October 7, 2012
1:41 am
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Barnettbuff
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Do we believe Henry was celibate during that whole period?

October 7, 2012
2:27 am
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Anyanka
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Olga said

Sharon said
Everyone thinks that Anne held out for marriage and wouldn’t bed Henry until she was his wife. I think Henry had as much to do with the waiting period as Anne did. Anne certainly was protective of her maidenhood; but Henry would have wanted to make sure that she did not get pregnant with his child before they were married. He did not want another bastard. He wanted Anne to be the mother of his legal heir. Having sex was out of the question until they were married. Neither one of them thought it would take so long for the marriage to take place.

I agree 100% with this. Earlier when Henry was trying to get his divorce approved by Rome he certainly wouldn’t want to jeopardise this by proof of infidelity. They did try as far as I know, to prove it, which I think is why Henry’s letters to Anne were stolen. They of course proved nothing.

It may be hard for us to fathom waiting seven years to have sex with your partner but those were different times.

All Henry’s letters proved was he was emotionally involved with Anne. Some people I know would find the emotional aspect as bad as physical infidelity.

It's always bunnies.

October 7, 2012
2:41 am
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Anyanka
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Barnettbuff said

Do we believe Henry was celibate during that whole period?

we know Henry had been sharing KoA’s bed ceremonially until very close the the time he asked for an annullement of their marriage. Whether or not they made love is up in the air, though Henry had complained about “a woman’s complaint” which had made her unpleasant to couple with .

IMO, Henry wasn’t a skirt chaser as much as he was a hunter. He loved the persuit of a prey, be it animal or a lover. In the former case, Henry would havae been capable of one night stands or short lived liasions. As a hunter, it was the capture of a selected prey which Henry wanted.

It's always bunnies.

October 7, 2012
2:49 am
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Olga
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What celibate while waiting to marry Anne? Yes I think so. He had stopped sleeping with Katherine quite a while before the divorce and I do believe he didn’t have any mistresses before he married Anne. After is a different story although not that many, I think three. One in unknown, one was Madge Shelton, then Jane Seymour, although he didn’t sleep with her.

October 7, 2012
3:03 am
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Anyanka
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Ah..yes..”the Imperial Lady” who Anne and Jane Boleyn conspired to remove from court.

It's always bunnies.

October 8, 2012
4:52 am
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Yes Chapuy’s buddy. Most mysterious Smile I bet historians have been tearing their hair out for centuries over that one.

October 8, 2012
9:59 am
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Anyanka said

Ah..yes..”the Imperial Lady” who Anne and Jane Boleyn conspired to remove from court.

This “Imperial Lady” is a new one on me Anyanka. Who was she? If Anne and Jane B conspired to get shot of her, it makes me think that perhaps their relationship was more freindly then I first thought. I also believed that it was a sort of love/hate freindship, in short they both loved to hate each other.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 8, 2012
11:42 am
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Boleyn said

This “Imperial Lady” is a new one on me Anyanka. Who was she? If Anne and Jane B conspired to get shot of her, it makes me think that perhaps their relationship was more freindly then I first thought. I also believed that it was a sort of love/hate freindship, in short they both loved to hate each other.

Henry was having an affair with someone when Anne was pregnant with Elizabeth. Chapuys wrote about her in a letter twice, first that Henry was pursuing her, and then a second time when Anne and Jane conspired to have her sent from court. It was also said she had sympathies with Mary and was assuring her her place would be better at court if she had her say. Jane picked a fight with her hoping Henry would send her away, it backfired and Jane herself was banished from court for a spell.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Anne and Jane had a bad relationship, quite the opposite as you can see from that piece of contemporary evidence. They were probably in fact quite close. But people always gloss over it because it doesn’t fit into their accounts of Jane being a villain.

October 8, 2012
5:16 pm
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Thank you for that info Olga.. I agree about Jane I don’t think she was as black as she’s been painted by some historians.. I find it impossible to believe (now with hindsight) that she gave evidence against Anne and George etc as I once believed.
I like the “picked a fight” bit. I can understand why she did it too. Poor Anne was going through enough hassles without Henry’s conquests being flaunted about.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 8, 2012
11:47 pm
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Julia Fox’s book on Jane wasn’t published until 2007. Most of the fictional accounts of Jane Boleyn were written before the book was published, I suppose the Boleyn Inheritance is one of the most widely-read at the moment. TOBG was 2001, next book was 2006. The Tudors obviously got their inspiration from PG.
Being in print for only 5 years I don’t think it seems to have had a lot of impact yet, and I have seen people saying they “don’t believe” Julia Fox. It just makes me think that people don’t want to let go of what they perceive. She found Jane’s marriage jointure(?) document which has been hiding for nearly 500 years. She also pointed out something about Jane’s father sending Henry a book of translations after Jane was executed, which has a veiled reference to Jane being an innocent party in the Cat Howard/Culpeper affair. The book is excellent. I’ve become fascinated with Jane since reading it actually, which is why I like to come along and have a rant about her at least once a week.

Loades of course tried to ruin Julia Fox’s good work recently in his stupid book The Boleyns by claiming Jane testified against George because she had secret Catholic sympathies and didn’t like his reformist views. He’s still on my thump-with-his-own book list. Then I’ll thump him with a copy of Julia’s book.

October 9, 2012
2:11 am
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Anyanka
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Olga said

Boleyn said

This “Imperial Lady” is a new one on me Anyanka. Who was she? If Anne and Jane B conspired to get shot of her, it makes me think that perhaps their relationship was more freindly then I first thought. I also believed that it was a sort of love/hate freindship, in short they both loved to hate each other.

Henry was having an affair with someone when Anne was pregnant with Elizabeth. Chapuys wrote about her in a letter twice, first that Henry was pursuing her, and then a second time when Anne and Jane conspired to have her sent from court. It was also said she had sympathies with Mary and was assuring her her place would be better at court if she had her say. Jane picked a fight with her hoping Henry would send her away, it backfired and Jane herself was banished from court for a spell.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Anne and Jane had a bad relationship, quite the opposite as you can see from that piece of contemporary evidence. They were probably in fact quite close. But people always gloss over it because it doesn’t fit into their accounts of Jane being a villain.

Yes…How close were Jane and Anne bearing in mind Anne was supposed to have refered to Henry’s…errr..lack in the bedroom? that fact alone shows there must have been some degree of sympathy between the 2 women.

That Jane was prepared to insitage a fight to get rid of a rival to Anne shows she was commited to the Boleyn camp and thier intereasts at that period of time.

Whether she changed her views or did she decide to dump her family by marriage in the hope that she could avoid being dragged down with the sinking Boleyn ship is a matter of conjecture.

I think it’s in the Carolly Erikson fiction book on Catherine Parr which makes JB a real cartoon character…I’ll look it out but this book desceibes JB as the kind of woman who’d slither across the floor to serve Kathryn Howard…

It's always bunnies.

October 9, 2012
4:20 am
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Olga
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I agree Anyanka if Anne was discussing Henry’s sexual problems with Jane then they must have been reasonably close. Especially as it’s not recorded that Anne confessed anything like that to anyone else in her camp (to my knowledge) In the end she was family, and I would like to think Anne trusted her. Those two incidents make me think they did have a good relationship, or as you said she was committed to the family at least.

There’s absolutely no evidence for Loade’s claim. He uses the fact that Lord Morley was friendly with Mary Tudor and that Jane was supposedly arrested for showing support in a “rally” for Mary to claim they were staunch Catholics. Morley as far as I know had some Reformist sympathies and I imagine Jane would have gone along with what her family at court were doing at the time. That of course is just a guess but I can’t see her doing otherwise. Loades also mentioned in the same book that Thomas Boleyn fell out with George over George’s religious views, which is just blatant false rubbish.

Larry I apologise for hijacking your thread Embarassed

October 9, 2012
4:48 pm
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Barnettbuff
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Olga~~

No problem, because my thread is fairly limited, so reading others comments here is fine. Anytime I read posts I learn something new, which helps me tremendously. Thanks

October 10, 2012
4:49 pm
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I agree with Olga about Jane. I think she has been terribly maligned throughout history. I suggest everyone read Jane Boleyn, by Julia Fox. It will change your mind about this lady. If Anne had not trusted her, she would never have conveyed to Jane the information about Henry’s inabilities in the bedroom. That is not something Anne would tell to someone she did not trust. It is unfortunate that after much interrogating by Cromwell that Jane told him this. If she did indeed tell him. And asking someone you don’t trust to help you rid yourself of a rival does not make sense to me. I think Anne and Jane had a sisterly relationship. Jane was accepted back at court shortly after Anne and George were killed. She was highly regarded. It wasn’t until after Jane was beheaded that she became the devil incarnate.
I’m somewhat surprised at Loade’s view of her.

October 10, 2012
11:29 pm
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Anyanka
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Anyanka said

I think it’s in the Carolly Erikson fiction book on Catherine Parr which makes JB a real cartoon character…I’ll look it out but this book describes JB as the kind of woman who’d slither across the floor to serve Kathryn Howard…

Nope, sorry….Erikson has JB rip her clothes off on the scaffold…

It was Kate Emerson’s Between Two Queens in which Anne Bassette describes JB as being glad to crawl to KH .

It's always bunnies.

October 11, 2012
8:51 am
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Olga
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Sharon said

I agree with Olga about Jane. I think she has been terribly maligned throughout history. I suggest everyone read Jane Boleyn, by Julia Fox. It will change your mind about this lady. If Anne had not trusted her, she would never have conveyed to Jane the information about Henry’s inabilities in the bedroom. That is not something Anne would tell to someone she did not trust. It is unfortunate that after much interrogating by Cromwell that Jane told him this. If she did indeed tell him. And asking someone you don’t trust to help you rid yourself of a rival does not make sense to me. I think Anne and Jane had a sisterly relationship. Jane was accepted back at court shortly after Anne and George were killed. She was highly regarded. It wasn’t until after Jane was beheaded that she became the devil incarnate.
I’m somewhat surprised at Loade’s view of her.

Sharon always sums things up so nicely Smile I really think the chapter where Julia outlines exactly how Jane started to gain her reputation and how is has been perpetuated is fascinating. Sharon is right the book will completely change your mind. I’m glad it’s one of the earliest books I read so I wasn’t taken in by things other historians have said. It puts a very different spin on the trial, and on George’s life.
Going by traditional thinking it’s easy to assume Jane made a full testimony they were having an incestuous relationship, that she did so because they had an unhappy marriage or because she was jealous or whatever other rubbish they come up with, and it ties it all into a neat little parcel. It also again points the blame away from Henry and directly at Jane, because people seem to assume if Jane had not made the testimony they may have been spared. It’s rubbish.

Ok I will stop ranting momentarily. Only to be horrified at Jane ripping her clothes off on the scaffold Surprised

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