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Jane Seymour- Her guilty?
June 2, 2014
1:56 pm
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Jane84
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Hello everyone,

I have a question about Jane Seymour.
Did she felt guilty about the death of her rival, Ann Boleyn?
Everybody always speak of her kindness, but, after all, she married Henri VIII ten days after the death of the queen.
And her family enjoyed her new situation at the court.

What do you think about it?

"If any person will meddle of my cause, I require them to judge the best."

June 2, 2014
10:26 pm
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Boleyn
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Good question Jane
I think she believed that she could change him to be honest. He had obviously given her the usual spiel of “my wife doesn’t understand me” and charmed her into believing that Anne was to blame for everything that had gone wrong, and she had obviously believed it, and had said the soothing words such as “Your majesty is much troubled I wish I could help you” that he had wanted to hear.
Personally I think once Anne fell and he married her, she learnt the truth about H8, that the Golden God I mean SOD who wooed her and told her that everything was Anne’s fault, was the biggest liar on the planet, and basically he broke her heart, that she gave him the son he so wanted was perhaps her greatest plus, bt I believe she was very dis illusioned by the whole kit and caboodle that was Henry.
I read somewhere recently that she may have died from a retained placenta, or at least part of it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 2, 2014
11:28 pm
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Sharon
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We really don’t know how Jane felt about what happened to Anne. She may have thought that Anne was guilty. She was also sympathetic to Katherine of Aragon’s plight. She was no friend of Anne’s. She served Anne. She would have seen the fights between Anne and Henry which were legendary.
She must have had some idea that the charges against Anne were outrageous.

She married Henry very soon after Anne’s death because that is what Henry wanted. I doubt if she had any say in that. After all, it suited his purpose to marry asap. He had just had a wife who was accused of sleeping with five men. He had to show the world he was still virile, and that it wasn’t his fault that his wife cheated on him.

I wish I knew what her private thoughts were. Henry was not very nice to her in the beginning of their marriage. There was the comment that he should have waited to marry Jane because there were so many beautiful women at court. I don’t know if she heard that, or if it was said to his buddies. Just a stupid, mean remark. She tried interfering in the Pilgrimage of Grace debacle and Henry told her to mind her own business or she would end like others had. (Anne and Katherine) Another time she tried to talk to him about forgiving Mary and was told to worry about her own children. (which I find chilling) Once she became pregnant, she was treated better by Henry. Then of course, she was elevated to angel/saint status after she died.

June 3, 2014
12:04 am
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Boleyn
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I doubt she would have been given the angel/saint status if she had had yet another daughter, or if Eddy had died as K.O.A’s son had though Sharon.
You are right about him treating her shamefully, he betrayed in the cruelist way I think. He used her as a pawn to bring the pilgramage of grace riots to an end. Promising the northern Lords etc that Jane would be crowned as their Queen in York to lull them into a false sence of security, and then slaughter them all. She must have felt terrible that he had used her like a cat’s paw in a deadly game of cat and mouse.
Jane if you get chance watch the Henry 8th and his 6 wives from 1970. Jane Seymour’s episode was very good.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 3, 2014
12:21 am
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Jane84
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You’re right, after all, she stayed queen a very short time. And she didn’t have the possibility to explain her feeling with H8. I haven’t read books about her, but i’ve seen the serie The Tudors, and the events are similar to those you write. She was submissive, kind, and may be scared.

I think, that today we are shocked of their reaction because, we wouldn’t have accepted the execution of Ann Boleyn. We know that she was innocent. But, at that time, most people, including Jane, thought that she was guilty. I know that Ann wasn’t very popular. Jane wasn’t fervent of the reform, contrary to Ann who was the ennemy of Spain (and France, I think, at the end).

Jane wasn’t the only ennemy of Ann. She certainly had less culpability than the executioners like Cromwell or the King himself.

It is funny to see that, today, the scapegoats are rehabilited and the saints/angels are questioned.

"If any person will meddle of my cause, I require them to judge the best."

June 3, 2014
12:43 am
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Jane84
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Boleyn said

I doubt she would have been given the angel/saint status if she had had yet another daughter, or if Eddy had died as K.O.A’s son had though Sharon.
You are right about him treating her shamefully, he betrayed in the cruelist way I think. He used her as a pawn to bring the pilgramage of grace riots to an end. Promising the northern Lords etc that Jane would be crowned as their Queen in York to lull them into a false sence of security, and then slaughter them all. She must have felt terrible that he had used her like a cat’s paw in a deadly game of cat and mouse.
Jane if you get chance watch the Henry 8th and his 6 wives from 1970. Jane Seymour’s episode was very good.

Thanks for the reference, as soon as I can find on the subject, I am absorded. I recently seen Ann of the thousand days, and I was really suprised. It change of “Two sister for a King” or “The Tudors”. Moreover, in Ann of the thousand days, the personnage of Jane isn’t present.

"If any person will meddle of my cause, I require them to judge the best."

June 3, 2014
1:07 am
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Boleyn
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Anne was very pro France, understandable considering she spent her youth there, I think Anne believed that peace could exist between both countries, and it may well have but for one thing. Henry and Francois were extremely jealous of each other, almost to the point of insanity. If Francois had a new horse, Henry would have to have 2 new horses just to get oneupmanship on him. We don’t know for sure if Mary Boleyn was Francois’s mistress even for a short time, but at the Val dor summit, by Francois saying “I call her my English mare and ride her every night” was enough to annoy Henry intently so he basically stole Mary away from Francois so to speak.

Then there was the wrestling match again at the Val Dor, in which Francois bested H8 and threw him to the ground.
They could never actually agree to disagree. I.e H8 was the best swordsman, horseman and sportsman in England whilst Francois was likewise in France. A freindly game of Tennis between them would always end in war somewhere along the line if given half a chance.
I don’t think Anne ever gave up on the hope that peace could exist between England and France, but I think she gave up hoping that Francois and H8 could ever be freinds.

There was also the incident with the French ambassador when K. Howard’s light behaviour before her marriage to H8 became known. The French ambassador brought a letter from Francois, that basically said “I am sorry to hear of the lewd and naughty behaviour of the wanton Queen”, the French ambassador received many a clout from H8 for daring to bring him such a letter.
Anne was blamed for the split with Rome and I think after Anne’s death people hoped that perhaps H8 would return to Rome. When that didn’t happen I think the people realised that Anne wasn’t to blame for the split after all and it brought out their sympathy for her, and she was perhaps viewed a little differently. The Pilgramage of Grace riots perhaps showed the people just how much of a tyrant H8 had become. They couldn’t blame Anne for that.
We are very much Anne’s champions here. I just wonder what she would have made of having so many champions, not just in England but from all over the world. Personally I think she’d be tickled pink. Especially when I hit Henry once or twice, with a rather large polo Mallet :)

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 3, 2014
1:17 am
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Boleyn
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Jane84 said

Boleyn said

I doubt she would have been given the angel/saint status if she had had yet another daughter, or if Eddy had died as K.O.A’s son had though Sharon.
You are right about him treating her shamefully, he betrayed in the cruelist way I think. He used her as a pawn to bring the pilgramage of grace riots to an end. Promising the northern Lords etc that Jane would be crowned as their Queen in York to lull them into a false sence of security, and then slaughter them all. She must have felt terrible that he had used her like a cat’s paw in a deadly game of cat and mouse.
Jane if you get chance watch the Henry 8th and his 6 wives from 1970. Jane Seymour’s episode was very good.

Thanks for the reference, as soon as I can find on the subject, I am absorded. I recently seen Ann of the thousand days, and I was really suprised. It change of “Two sister for a King” or “The Tudors”. Moreover, in Ann of the thousand days, the personnage of Jane isn’t present.

That’s basically because the film was solely about Anne. Jane did feature once, when Henry asked her dance. I think he said something to her like “If I lead strongly will you follow softly” and she answers “I hope so your grace” as he’s dancing with her Anne points to Jane and tells her guards to get rid of her. Later when Henry and Anne are arguing he asks her where she has sent Jane and she answers “I have sent her to Northumberland the furthest I could send her since we don’t own Scotland.” Geneveive Bujold portrayal of Anne is superb, she plays her just as I picture Anne to be like.Richard Burton as Henry, need I say more, one of the finest actors Britain ever had.
Of course the only person who played Elizabeth with any conviction in my opinion was Glenda Jackson. Anne Marie Duff was good, but she lacked that spark that Glenda had.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 3, 2014
11:32 am
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Jane84
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That’s basically because the film was solely about Anne. Jane did feature once, when Henry asked her dance. I think he said something to her like “If I lead strongly will you follow softly” and she answers “I hope so your grace” as he’s dancing with her Anne points to Jane and tells her guards to get rid of her. Later when Henry and Anne are arguing he asks her where she has sent Jane and she answers “I have sent her to Northumberland the furthest I could send her since we don’t own Scotland.” Geneveive Bujold portrayal of Anne is superb, she plays her just as I picture Anne to be like.Richard Burton as Henry, need I say more, one of the finest actors Britain ever had.
Of course the only person who played Elizabeth with any conviction in my opinion was Glenda Jackson. Anne Marie Duff was good, but she lacked that spark that Glenda had.

What I found interesting in this film, is that Henri VIII isn’t seeing like a monster. He seems very weak and mad of Anne. He feels compel to executed her. And, the scene, at the end, when he comes to the court and asks her to tell the truth, it show an aspect of his personality. Even if, we know that it doesn’t exist. After all, may be Jane was just an excuse for him, to silence his feeling and forget Anne. In the film, also, the personnage of Elizabeth is really important. I am also asked if it wasn’t looking the past with futur. Because, Anne always said that her daughter will rule the England. But at that time, she don’t know nothing about it. I can undestand that she wants her daughter to be legitimate as an heir. But as a futur queen? It is the only problem that cause me the film. Unfortunately, I had seen just one movie about Elizabeth Ire, it was with Cate Blanchett.
Today, we know that Elizabeth was the revange of her mother. By the fact that she was a one of greatest queen of England. I also noticed that the great periods of England were ruled by woman. It is surely what was missing the most in France Smile.

"If any person will meddle of my cause, I require them to judge the best."

June 3, 2014
4:38 pm
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Sharon
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Jane84 said

You’re right, after all, she stayed queen a very short time. And she didn’t have the possibility to explain her feeling with H8. I haven’t read books about her, but i’ve seen the serie The Tudors, and the events are similar to those you write. She was submissive, kind, and may be scared.

I think, that today we are shocked of their reaction because, we wouldn’t have accepted the execution of Ann Boleyn. We know that she was innocent. But, at that time, most people, including Jane, thought that she was guilty. I know that Ann wasn’t very popular. Jane wasn’t fervent of the reform, contrary to Ann who was the ennemy of Spain (and France, I think, at the end).

Jane wasn’t the only ennemy of Anne. She certainly had less culpability than the executioners like Cromwell or the King himself.

It is funny to see that, today, the scapegoats are rehabilited and the saints/angels are questioned.

There were people who thought Anne and the others were not guilty, too. Chapuys thought they were innocent. The whole affair was a tragedy. I think people were shocked by Henry’s actions, but no one was willing to say anything for fear they would end up as had Anne and the men accused with her. This must have been a very scary time to be at Henry’s court.
I do agree Jane was not culpable at all in Anne’s demise. I say saint/angel because that is what Henry raised her to after her death. I don’t question whether Jane was a good woman or not, I believe she was. I do not think she was the sly, cunning girl that many portray her as.
I don’t think Anne ever became the enemy of France. When her power started to wane, and the French backed out of a marriage contract with Elizabeth, she was scared and angry. Spain, yes. She wanted nothing to do with Spain, which was probably not the best opinion to have while Henry was trying to forge new relations.

Yes, Boleyn, I agree, had Jane delivered a girl and then died, she would be just another woman who failed her king.

June 3, 2014
4:55 pm
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Olga
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Jane is such a mystery. I often think people try to represent her as a calculating woman simply so they don’t have to portray her as the frightened, obedient, boring one. They don’t seem to be able to find a good balance, but she left nothing behind, so it is difficult.
In the end I think Jane just played the hand she was dealt and did the best she could. When I was first reading Tudor history I was often disgusted with her marrying Henry so quickly but then what was she to say? Oh we should be mourning the wife you just murdered?

I often think Henry felt guilty after her death. He treated her terribly. He was even whining about going off hunting while the poor woman was dying painfully. Just one of my whacky theories but I think that is why he idolised her so much later, he treated her badly and she is the only wife to give him his long-for son.

June 3, 2014
8:26 pm
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Boleyn
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In the 1972 film when Jane was in Labour, H8 was told that there was choice between either Jane’s life or the Baby’s life. H8 answered “let it be a son” That kind of sums up H8’s treatment of her, and to me at least I feel it was possible that H8 may have said something like that too if indeed that did happen.
You are right Olga about Jane being a enigma as she was Queen for such a short time, and before January of 1536 when it became known that H8 was paying court to her, she was simply an unseen and unknown entity. Yes she served as lady in waiting to both K.O.A and A.B but what do we known of her before then. The answer is not a lot.
How did she attract H8? Of all of H8’s wives I think Jane was quite possibly the plainest, and extremely dull, temprement wise.
Anne was all fire and brimstone as was H8 together they were a very dangerous combination. K.O.A well in her way she could be just a firey as H8, and she was certainly as stubborn as both H8 and Anne. H8 liked woman of spirit, when the Pilgramage of Grace riots kicked off Jane made a pathetic sort of attempt to plead for mercy, and was prompty told to shut her trap, which of course she did. H8 saw that a plus and used her to bring down Aske and the other leaders. If H8 had told either K.O.A or Anne to shut their traps both would have argued with him. A.O.C showed she too was someone to be reckoned with when he made it known that he wanted a divorce, as she insisted on seeing the arguements he had for the divorce, ultimetely although some saw her aquiencence to H8 as weakness she in fact argued enough to see that she got a bloody good deal/bargain out of it. K.H yeah she had a spirit, the spirit of youth and yeah she made H8 feel good about himself, and belief that he was the Golden Sod I mean God of his past again. K.H also tried to plead (unsuccessfully) for the life of Lady Salisbury. K.P well she managed to argue her way out of a very acute pain in the neck.
Although it’s a cruel thing to say, she did herself a big favour by dying, because if she hadn’t H8 (no doubt) would have divorced her son or no son, as he death would have been just as K.O.A’s had been. The abandoned and forgotten wife cruelly and heartlessly betrayed and left to die alone.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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