Overall Opinions. | Henry VIII | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Overall Opinions.
August 8, 2011
9:51 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think almost everyone of the forum has made their liking or disliking of Henry pretty clear. Now put it in a paragraph (or sentence) all together.

Consider everything. Divorcing and sending Katherine to no where to rot. Obsessing over Anne then after only 3 years of marriage murdering her although she was clearly innocent. Marrying Seymour days after Anne's death and her having his long awaited son then dying weeks after then declaring her his true and favorite wife. Marrying Cleves and already decided after 5 minutes with her that she's ugly and not fit for the role of his wife and divorcing her 6 months after bending a knee to the alter. Then he married Kathryn Howard because she made him feel younger then murdering her because she fell in love and betrayed him. Finally marrying Parr, almost putting her to the block for religious reasons but she actually ended up out living him. Regarding his children: He treated Mary cruelly just because he was mad at her mother. He made both his daughters, at one point, bastards.

Personally sometimes i like him but most of the time i hate him. He could be a sweet, gentle and loving man…when he wanted to of course. When he was nice and loving to his wifes, i liked him..but for what he did to Anne Boleyn i completely hate him. But it's not just Anne. He treated all his wifes disrespectfully. He was just a spoiled, selfish, little man ( well not so little but still.).

Overall opinions?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

August 9, 2011
12:49 am
Avatar
Catalina
Scotland
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
July 17, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think Henry was in love with the idea of being in love. He enjoyed the chase, taking on the persona of the chivalric knight, the love letters, the 'romance' of trying to woo someone who was resisting him (i.e. Anne Boleyn). He was the knight in shining armour who married the destitute princess (KOA). The poor, wronged husband, married to (as he saw it) a feisty, opinionated, screeching harpy, and he only wanted to sweep that gentle damsel Jane Seymour off her feet. Once he had what he had been chasing, the novelty wore off. The fact that Jane gave him his longed for son meant that at the point she died, the rose tinted glasses were very much still in place. And her death to give him a prince probably appealed to him in a tragic love story kind of a way, and cemented her position in his heart as his most beloved wife. I don't doubt that had she survived, he would soon have got bored of her and would have been looking for his next victim.  His treatment of Anne of Cleves to me was little more than a spiteful tantrum because she didn't 'get' his charade of 'disguised stranger she falls hopelessly in love with'.  He made an utter fool of himself over Kitty Howard, and again his treatment of her was probably more down to wounded pride.  And with Catherine Parr, he still hadn't mellowed as he had a warrant drawn up for her arrest.  (by the way did Henry know that Thomas Seymour was interested in her? If he did that's probably half the reason she appealed to him)

My opinion of him is that he was an impulsive, immature, paranoid, cruel, spiteful, utterly selfish human being who expected everyone around him to live up to his ridiculous expectations of them.  His break from Rome was nothing more than a foot stamping exercise because he couldn't get his divorce, so the toys were thrown out of the pram so to speak.  He only wanted what he thought he couldn't have, once he got it, it didn't interest him anymore.

He still fascinates me though Laugh

'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable'  Thomas More

August 9, 2011
9:04 am
Avatar
SG
North Yorkshire UK
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 29
Member Since:
December 12, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hmm, I may change my opinion on this again later, but I think he probably believed himself in love with Catherine of Aragon when he married her, and believed that he was doing the chivalric thing in marrying her.  He clearly loved romance.  He then actually fell in love properly with Anne Boleyn, and moved heaven and earth to marry her.  Catherine of Aragon's resistance to him turning what affection he still had for her to hatred.  I believe that for whatever reason he actually did believe the charges against Anne, and that is why he acted the way he did there, marrying Jane Seymour as a kind of rebound thing.  To me the whole scenario there fits.  I've read nothing that convinces me he was madly in love with Jane Seymour while she was alive.  I also think that maybe he was jealous and intimidated by Anne and those accused with her (maybe he thought they were more attractive, fashionable, talented etc than him), and that is why he was able to believe the charges, because deep down maybe he felt that he wasn't good enough for her.  He 'loved' Jane Seymour after her death because she gave him a son, and didn't live long enough to disappoint.  Also, being inferior to him in looks and ability, there was no danger of intimidation there.  I agree with Catalina that his problem with Anne of Cleves was due to their disastrous first meeting, and that he was unable to believe himself unattractive, so made out that she was.  Catherine Howard made a fool out of him when he was devoted to her.  She left him distraught broken hearted, and humiliated.  She didn't stand a chance.  And Katherine Parr was exceptionally lucky and smart to escape their marriage alive.  She was fortunate to have the opportunity to appeal to him before her enemies struck. 

That's how I see it anyway  Smile

August 9, 2011
1:36 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I agree with everything you both said.

I hate Henry but he fascinates me to no end which is the opposite with Anne Boleyn, I love Anne and she fascinates me to no end. Maybe if Jane Seymour was fascinating i'd respect her or accept her or whatever but she wasn't…ever!

Anywhoo, I cannot get over how selfish Henry was. It was his main personality trait and i know this sounds wrong but i'm kinda glad Edward didn't reign long because i read he was already braty at what? 7 or 8 years old? in his letters to Katherine Parr he disrespcted her and his sister Mary. If he was a brat then imagine how he'd be as an adult ! He'd probably end up with 10 wives and 6 beheaded or something. But despite that, no child should die that young, it was horrible how many babies and toddlers died back then. Cry

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

August 9, 2011
11:39 pm
Avatar
Catalina
Scotland
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
July 17, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I wonder why we know so little about Jane Seymour though. Is it because she was a non entity and not important enough to write about prior to her marriage to Henry?

I hate her being painted as a saint when I think she was far more likely to hav been a snake in the grass waiting to strike.  Henry must have been a pretty stupid man if he couldn't see her game.

'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable'  Thomas More

August 13, 2011
1:16 pm
Avatar
Bella44
New Zealand
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 933
Member Since:
January 9, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Oddly enough, I don't hate Henry!  I find him endlessly fascinating, particularly psychologically, and its this aspect of him that for me almost makes him as elusive and hard to pin down as Anne.  I think there were many aspects of his character that were constantly at war with themselves; on the one hand I rather think he was a bit of a romantic, in love with the idea of love, yet on the other, utterly incapable of living with loves' reality.  Things usually changed once he had the object of his obssession.  I also think he was at heart though a mysoginist, not at all unusual in the 16th century, but six marriages, two ending in nothing less than murder, was excessive even by the standards of the day.  And I think this aspect of him only grew as he got older, coupled with the concussion he suffered in his 1536 accident that could very well have caused a personality shift.  Put all that together and you can wind up with a person who is underneath it all deeply unhappy and constantly unsatisfied.

I'm not trying to excuse some of the more awful things he did in any way, merely trying to understand what drove the man to do what he did.  I have a feeling that the eighteen year old Henry would have loathed and been hugely disappointed in a lot of the aspects that his fifty year old self became.  He never wanted to be a tyrant, yet in the end that is exactly what he became.  

August 13, 2011
6:13 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Catalina said:

I wonder why we know so little about Jane Seymour though. Is it because she was a non entity and not important enough to write about prior to her marriage to Henry?


Most people male or female were not important enough to be documented in thier time. Unless you were nobility or had made a name for yourself you were ..well not ignored, but not written about because you were not ipart of the ruling group.

 

In fact until the age of mass literacy for all, not just the high classes ,which when we decided that inividual experiences were worthy of being recorded and not just the comings and goings of the upper eschelion did we get a broader feeling of history.

 

Recently there are lots of interactive websites were people can can post about thier lives and experiences. IIRC Steven Speilberg has one on the Holocaust. I've seen sites dedicated to WWII, Korean War, Vietnam, Falklands, the Troubles in Ireland and so on and so forth..

 

We are lucky to live in a time where(when???) we are allowed to document our lives despite the dullness of them.

It's always bunnies.

August 13, 2011
6:33 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bella44 said:

Oddly enough, I don't hate Henry!  I find him endlessly fascinating, particularly psychologically, and its this aspect of him that for me almost makes him as elusive and hard to pin down as Anne.  I think there were many aspects of his character that were constantly at war with themselves; on the one hand I rather think he was a bit of a romantic, in love with the idea of love, yet on the other, utterly incapable of living with loves' reality.  Things usually changed once he had the object of his obssession.  I also think he was at heart though a mysoginist, not at all unusual in the 16th century, but six marriages, two ending in nothing less than murder, was excessive even by the standards of the day.

 


You can argue that his exiling of KoA  into inhosipital houses by the standards of 16th Centuary was tantamount to murder. or negect..

 

we really can't impose our 21st century notions onto Henry. In fact i can remember a criminal case where the(male) perp was not prisoned because he “was not a menace to the general public” just to his wife < eyeroll>…

It's always bunnies.

August 15, 2011
6:54 pm
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Headline: 

Henry VIII:  Hopeless Romantic or Sadistic Tyrant??

A lot of both, probably.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

August 25, 2011
8:21 pm
Avatar
Kim
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 57
Member Since:
October 12, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don't hate Henry, I pity him.

First of all, I do genuinely believe Henry to be a hopeless romantic. As I have said previously, he was a rarity amongst monarchs of this period in that he married women that he genuinely believed himself to be in love with (with the exception of poor old Anne of Cleves, who he did for a short period believe himself to be in love with, right up until he met her). I think that is one of the reasons that four out of six of the wives were from England and not foreign princesses (one of the other reasons being that it was easier to do as you wished with one of your own subjects than with a foreign princess who had the political connections to make life difficult if need be – a lesson I would say he learned from KoA). He spent day after day with women like AB, JS, KH and CP and as such found it easier to fall in love with them. Unfortunately none of the women he married were destined to live up to the high expectations he set, except JS, who had to die in order to win his enternal love. I think that Henry was in love with being in love, and once that original passion died down, he went looking for the next woman to be in 'love' with.

I also think a lot of people judge Henry for his desire to have male issue, but I think if you look at it in a historical context you can understand where Henry was coming from. Up until Mary took the crown, England had only ever had one queen, Matilda, and her reign had been a complete disaster. The majority of the people in England (KoA being a obvious expection considering her lineage) believed a woman unfit to rule. England had only very recently come out of long civil war, and if Henry had left a woman to inherit the throne, he would have been fearful that another civil war would have broken out. However, if he provided a healthy male heir, there wouldn't be much chance of anyone challenging the Tudor line. Yes, he produced two very strong and capable daughters, but at the time that simply wasn't enough. After the incident in 1536, I think he realised that he was not as young as he used to be and he really needed to 'hop to it' in terms of having male issue.

I think that this, coupled with him having to come to terms with the fact that he was no longer the fit, dashing young prince he used to be created a lot of stress and pressure. Add a leg wound that just won't go away (I'm sure anyone can tell you that chronic pain can start to send even the most grounded person mad), the break with Rome, the political games with France and Spain, and you have a recipe for disaster. I know for a fact that I would crumble under all that pressure, and struggle to think of anyone I know that wouldn't. 

I pity Henry because, like his wives, he was a victim of himself, and of circumstances out of his control. He started out as an incredibly promising young man that over the course of many, many years was beaten into submission by the pressures that were placed on him and ended up becoming a monster. 

August 25, 2011
10:31 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I pity Henry for being such an idiot. Henry was a romantic and that's all great but it shouldn't be okay for him to fall in love and then when he finally has sex with the woman start hating her because he needs somthing newer & fresher. The man was pathetic, sorry to Henry likers out there but it's true. Him being a big spoiled cry baby doesn't help my opinion of him either. He was also a very naive man, which is something i really pity him for because people who he thought were his trusted subjects & friends turned out to be vicious liars only trying to get up in the world. For example Mr.Cromwell, he was Anne Boleyn's friend and helped her at first then when he saw her downfall coming he completely betrayed her and helped her and her brother and friends get wrongly executed just to save his a$$. But karma came along and he was executed some years later. Just like with Henry… he treated his wives badly just because he wanted a son but Karma came and his longed for son got sick and died (R.I.P) and his daughters, oohhh only daughters soooo useless, became Queens longer than Edward himself. And his youngest daughter, of the wife he said betrayed him and he had executed, became one of the greatest Queen England ever had. Cromwell got what he deserved and so did Henry even though Edward didn't deserve to die, he was an innocent young man and might of made a great King…despite who his mother was. Confused

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

October 22, 2011
6:52 am
Avatar
E
Member
Banned
Forum Posts: 256
Member Since:
May 19, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think he was a very sick and disappointed man. In his youth to be the 'most beautiful prince in Christendom' and turn into a fat, bloated, sick man, with no sons to live to manhood. He must have wondered why. Why was it his fate to be denied the one thing most important to him..

I think Henry was an ever present embarrassment to himself.

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

October 26, 2011
1:47 am
Avatar
Louise
Hampshire, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 611
Member Since:
December 5, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have always believed Henry was ultimately responsible for the Boleyns fall, so although I may not necessarily hate the man, I hate what he did. I suppose the overriding feeling I have for him is contempt. He was never forced to face his actions during life but I would like to think he faced them in death:-

 

                     Henry

He knew that life was slowly leaving,
As he lay and watched the spirits seething.
They waited eagerly as darkness came.
Those he had thought never to see again.

They flitted at the edge of sight.
Sinuous shapes which caused such fright.
Those innocents he had sent to Hell.
The ones he had previously loved so well.

He heard them whispering as darkness came,
Gentle calling out his name.
Arms outstretched in a dozen embraces,
Patiently waiting with their familier faces.

At the edge of the mass two people stood quietly.
Watching him sombrely while holding hands tightly.
A brother and sister whose dance he had stilled,
Merely to ensure his desires be fulfilled.

The brother and sister stood silently by,
As the others around them questioned why.
They watched him intently as the light became dim.
And as darkness fell, they came for him. 

 

With all that he had done in his life, I think the above is the least he could have expected.

October 26, 2011
2:04 pm
Avatar
Elliemarianna
Corsham, Wiltshire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 316
Member Since:
June 7, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

That's awesome Louise! I like that idea haha!

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

October 26, 2011
2:32 pm
Avatar
Elliemarianna
Corsham, Wiltshire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 316
Member Since:
June 7, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Traumatic Brain Injury;

With mild TBI, the patient may remain conscious or may lose consciousness for a few seconds or minutes. Other symptoms of mild TBI include headache, vomiting, nausea, lack of motor coordination, dizziness, difficulty balancing, lightheadedness, blurred vision or tired eyes, ringing in the ears, bad taste in the mouth, fatigue or lethargy, and changes in sleep patterns. Cognitive and emotional symptoms include behavioral or mood changes, confusion, and trouble with memory, concentration, attention, or thinking. Mild TBI symptoms may also be present in moderate and severe injuries. A person with a moderate or severe TBI may have a headache that does not go away, repeated vomiting or nausea, convulsions, an inability to awaken, dilation of one or both pupils, slurred speech, aphasia (word-finding difficulties), dysarthria (muscle weakness that causes disordered speech), weakness or numbness in the limbs, loss of coordination, confusion, restlessness, or agitation. Common long-term symptoms of moderate to severe TBI are changes in appropriate social behavior, deficits in social judgment, and cognitive changes, especially problems with sustained attention, processing speed, and executive functioning. Alexithymia, a deficiency in identifying, understanding, processing, and describing emotions occurs in 60.9% of individuals with TBI. TBI may cause emotional, social, or behavioral problems and changes in personality. These may include emotional instability, depression, anxiety, hypomania, mania, apathy, irritability, problems with social judgment, and impaired conversational skills. TBI appears to predispose survivors to psychiatric disorders including obsessive compulsive disorder, substance abuse, dysthymia, clinical depression, bipolar disorder, and anxiety disorders. In patients who have depression after TBI, suicidal ideation is not uncommon; the suicide rate among these persons is increased 2- to 3-fold. Social and behavioral symptoms that can follow TBI include disinhibition, inability to control anger, impulsiveness, lack of initiative, inappropriate sexual activity, poor social judgment, and changes in personality.

I think Henry was angry with Anne before his accident, but I don't think he would have killed her had it not been for the head injury.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

October 27, 2011
8:37 am
Avatar
229bluebell
portsmoth
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 11
Member Since:
October 17, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Henry  seem to have had it all  but still could  not find happiness.  At first he had love and i think he felt safe with Catherine she was a princess in her own right and knew how to run the country when he went to war. As time went by she must have lost her looks and only having 1 live child  a daughter at that his eyes must have lit up when seeing the young and lushers Anne . With the promise of sons   he put the ever faithful Catherine aside and gave his love to Anne.  We all know what happened there , i think after that he was still looking for the security he had with Catherine  it seems  after Anne he mistrusted all around him . And lets not forget he was not meant to be king  so his childhood would have be so much more free than his brother  i do feel a little sorry for him  but then i've still got my head Surprised

October 30, 2011
12:56 am
Avatar
E
Member
Banned
Forum Posts: 256
Member Since:
May 19, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Louise said:

I have always believed Henry was ultimately responsible for the Boleyns fall, so although I may not necessarily hate the man, I hate what he did. I suppose the overriding feeling I have for him is contempt. He was never forced to face his actions during life but I would like to think he faced them in death:-

 

                     Henry

He knew that life was slowly leaving,
As he lay and watched the spirits seething.
They waited eagerly as darkness came.
Those he had thought never to see again.

They flitted at the edge of sight.
Sinuous shapes which caused such fright.
Those innocents he had sent to Hell.
The ones he had previously loved so well.

He heard them whispering as darkness came,
Gentle calling out his name.
Arms outstretched in a dozen embraces,
Patiently waiting with their familier faces.

At the edge of the mass two people stood quietly.
Watching him sombrely while holding hands tightly.
A brother and sister whose dance he had stilled,
Merely to ensure his desires be fulfilled.

The brother and sister stood silently by,
As the others around them questioned why.
They watched him intently as the light became dim.
And as darkness fell, they came for him. 

 

With all that he had done in his life, I think the above is the least he could have expected.

Did you write this Louise? It gave me tingles!

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

October 30, 2011
4:07 am
Avatar
Louise
Hampshire, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 611
Member Since:
December 5, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ha! Yes I did write it, but I don't think Elizabeth Barrett Browning has anything to worry about any time soon!

Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 214

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2337

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 933

DuchessofBrittany: 846

Mya Elise: 781

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 427746

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1713

Posts: 23079

Newest Members:

albakl4, Michaelfen, RamonTuP, LonnieMef, FSUimance, Lefferttault

Administrators: Claire: 959