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Do you think Henry would have been proud of Elizabeth?
March 2, 2011
10:17 am
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Chrystinamarie123
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With everything that Elizabeth accomplished she truly was more mighty than any son Henry could have dreamed of…but knowing all of that do you think Henry would have been proud? Before you jump to a full on yes, really think about Henry's personality. Apart of me feels like he would actually be little angry about Elizabeth's reign, the fact that she was Anne's daughter and the fact that Elizabeth had no children to carry on the Tudor blood seems like something that would anger Henry to me. 

 

I know with all of the many other good things Elizabeth did that he should be proud (whether he knew from beyond the grave or a simple “if” scenario) but Henry was a real wild card.

March 2, 2011
9:29 pm
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Bella44
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I think Henry might've had mixed feelings towards Elizabeth.  I agree with what you said Christinamarie about Henry being angry about her not having children – and there's no way that he would ever admit that his actions may have had something to do with the choices ELizabeth made later in either!  I also kinda think he might resent her accomplishments too, simply because she was female.

On the other hand he was certainly proud of her learning and intellectual accomplishments while he was alive and I can see him taking great satisfaction in her rule of England and it becoming the world power under her guidance that he always dreamed it could be (especially the defeat of the Armada; I wonder if he constantly reminds Charles V that HIS daughter beat his son good and proper…. Laugh

March 3, 2011
12:06 am
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Kim
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I also think he would have had mixed feelings about Elizabeth. At the end of the day it was her refusal to marry and have children that caused the Tudor dynasty to end (not to mention how Henry would have felt about a Scottish king sitting on the throne of England!!!). As a man that was utterly obssessed with ensuring the succession of his blood to the throne, I don't think he would have been very pleased.

However, when it comees to the other things that she accomplished, I don't know if it would be pride that he would feel so much as surprise. I always got the feeling that Eizabeth was the least loved of his children. Despite his issues with Mary during his time with Anne, they eventually reconciled, and of course Edward was the apple of his eye, but Ellizabeth seems to have missed out on a bit of love from her father. I think it was just fortunate that she looked so much like him, otherwise she may well have been declared someone else's child. But I digress. I think that Henry, despite probably been aware of her intellectual acheivements, wouldn't have thought her fit to rule. After all, if he was sure that women would be fit to rule, he wouldn't have become so consumed in his quest to have a son.

March 3, 2011
5:40 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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Given Henry's view of the role of women, and their lack of ability to rule (a la Lady Mary), his feelings toward Elizabeth would have been complicated.

Yes, she was his daughter who inherited his Tudor coloration, intellect, temper, and ability to rule with a combination of love and fear. Yes, he might reconize Elizabeth's successes in her reign, and would probably delight in the Spanish Armada's defeat.

However, I feel Elizabeth was the least loved child, a reminder of Anne, and Henry's percieved mistakes. I think The Tudors do this with great intelligence and nuance. Elizabeth in many ways was her Mother's Daughter.

The thing, though, that would have set Henry off is Elizabeth's choice not to marry or have children- the destruction of Henry's much desired Tudor line. It would have been a kick in the face to everything Henry did. The bloodshed, breaking with Rome, killing Anne was for nought. I've always believed Elizabeth's choice not to marry was in direct defiance to everything her father did and her mother's fate.

However, Henry's delusional, meglomanic personality might struggle to be proud of anyone, especially a woman whose independence, intelligence, and self-confidence was contrary to the natural order of things.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

March 3, 2011
12:42 pm
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Sharon
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Henry would have found it a hard pill to swallow when faced with the fact that Anne's daughter was the best of his brood.  I think eventually he would have had to admit, at least to himself, that she was his greatest accomplishment. He would have loved Elizabeth's strength as she defeated Spain. At first, Elizabeth's reign would have gone against everything he had believed to be true about her, and about women in general; but he would have had to have given her the nod for her ability to lead England. So, yeah, for the most part, I think he would have been quite proud of her.

Henry being Henry would have had to have found fault with her somewhere along the way; and I believe it would have been in her refusal to marry so the Tudor name would continue. Of course, if he looked at what he had done to shape her opinion of marriage, he wouldn't be so quick to condemn her choice.  But this is Henry Tudor, the guy who could do no wrong in his own mind.  He wouldn't understand that the Tudor's would go down in history as a formidable dynasty, or that Elizabeth was acknowleged as one of the greatest sovereigns of England.  He would only see that she did not do her duty by him which was to marry and give the country more Tudor heirs.  That would have been a sore spot with him. 

I wonder what he would have to say about his daughter Mary's reign?  Cry 

 

 

March 3, 2011
3:02 pm
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DuchessofBrittany
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Sharon said:

 

I wonder what he would have to say about his daughter Mary's reign?  Cry   


Well that's a whole other kettle of fish. Mary did marry, so he could not fault her there. Well, maybe he could. Mary did marry a Spainard and they were disliked in England. Mary did try for an heir, so Henry could love her for trying, but she did not succeed, so he would probably take issue with that.

She tried to bring Catholicism back to England, contrary to Henry's wishes, so I could only imagine his reaction.

The burnings of heretics were in line with Henry's own policies, but I'm sure he could find fault with it.

Mary declared her parent's marriage valid: that would have infuriated Henry.

Mary lost Calais, England's French prize and would not have been popular with Henry.

However, Mary did fight for her right to reign, and I cannot image Henry would fault that. She was fighting for her heitage and birthright. In essence, reaffirming Henry's Act of Succession. In her fight, she showed the greatness of her father.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

March 3, 2011
3:51 pm
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Chrystinamarie123
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DuchessofBrittany said:

Sharon said:

 

I wonder what he would have to say about his daughter Mary's reign?  Cry   


Well that's a whole other kettle of fish. Mary did marry, so he could not fault her there. Well, maybe he could. Mary did marry a Spainard and they were disliked in England. Mary did try for an heir, so Henry could love her for trying, but she did not succeed, so he would probably take issue with that.
 

She tried to bring Catholicism back to England, contrary to Henry's wishes, so I could only imagine his reaction.

The burnings of heretics were in line with Henry's own policies, but I'm sure he could find fault with it.

Mary declared her parent's marriage valid: that would have infuriated Henry.

Mary lost Calais, England's French prize and would not have been popular with Henry.

However, Mary did fight for her right to reign, and I cannot image Henry would fault that. She was fighting for her heitage and birthright. In essence, reaffirming Henry's Act of Succession. In her fight, she showed the greatness of her father.


I think Henry would have been more infuriated with Mary than he would have been with Elizabeth, mostly because of her marriage as you said. She basically reduced England to a Spanish colony and I wouldn't have ever wanted to see Henry's reaction to that. Poor Mary though, her entire life was just one long tragedy.

and thanks you guys! I really liked reading everyone's opinions on the matter. You all made excellent points 🙂 

What do you guys think he would have thought of her affair with Robert Dudley?

March 4, 2011
6:15 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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Chrystinamarie123 said:

What do you guys think he would have thought of her affair with Robert Dudley?


The Dudley's were traitors, even before the Lady Jane Grey debacle.

Edmund Dudley, Robert's grandfather, was a minster to Henry VII and was responsible for collecting the King's debts. In the process, Edmund became quite wealthy and fell out of favour. Upon Henry VII's death, he was arrested and imprisoned in the tower. He tried to change Henry VIII's mind by writing The Tree of  Commonwealth, but the document never reached the new king. Edmund was executed on a charge of constructive treason.

So, the Dudleys were never in Henry's good books. They did serve the King because of their status, but Henry had a long memory, and must have treated them with some distrust.

The Dudley's were evangelicals, brought up in the enw faith. They were friends with the Seymours, So, they did have powerful friends at court.

As for Robert, I've never liked the man. He reminds me of a snake oil salesman. I hope Henry would have warned Elizabeth of what getting involved with the Dudley's could mean. Robert was a treacherous, cunning, power-hungry man, whose was stained with his family's deception. I doubt Henry would approve of his daughter carrying on with Robert so publically and ruining her reputation as a princess and lady. I am sure Henry's paternal instincts would have kicked in, like any father, and put both Robert and Elizabeth in their places.

However, Elizabeth was her own woman. I doubt she would have given Robert up for anything or anyone!

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

March 7, 2011
12:04 pm
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Sharon
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 Henry would have been proud that Mary fought for her right to wear the crown.  That's about it.  I think Henry would have been angry over Mary's choice to marry Phillip.  Spain, are you kidding?  That marriage gave Spain a foothold in England.  No way he would be happy about that.  Mary took her cues from the Spanish Ambassador, Renard, and Bishop Gardner. I can't imagine Henry applauding that. Henry never loved anyone for trying to have an heir.  He would have been very disappointed because she didn't succeed.

Henry knew John Dudley very well, and he liked him.  His titles included, Viscount Lisle, Lord High Admiral, Warden of the Scottish Marches, and later he was admitted to the Privy Council and Privy Chamber.  He owed his power mainly to military achievements. It was after Henry and Edward were gone that John got into so much trouble.  As John had recovered his name after his father was put to death as a traitor, so too did Robert recover his name after John died. 

I believe Robert loved Elizabeth.  I also think for years he wanted to marry her and yes, share her crown. Three reasons: (1.) He loved her. (2.) He was a man and thought she had to take a husband. (3.) Since they loved each other, he thought he should be that guy.  

I know Henry would have been outraged about the carrying on of Elizabeth and Robert when she first took the throne.  They were obsessed with each other and didn't seem to care who knew it.  If anyone should understand obsession, you would think Henry would; but when it came to his daughter's obsession, I don't think he'd be too pleased.  I don't know what his reaction would have been when Robert married and kept it from Elizabeth. As far as that goes, I'd hate to hear what his reaction would have been to the council for keeping it from her.  I'm sure he would not have been pleased with any of them.  

In the end, I think Henry would have approved of Robert's loyalty to his daughter.  Right up to his death, Robert was ever the loving, faithful servant to his queen.  Henry had always demanded love and loyalty in his own life.  He would have found this an admiral quality in Dudley.

March 9, 2011
12:17 am
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La Belle Creole
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Chrystinamarie123 said:

With everything that Elizabeth accomplished she truly was more mighty than any son Henry could have dreamed of…but knowing all of that do you think Henry would have been proud? Before you jump to a full on yes, really think about Henry's personality. Apart of me feels like he would actually be little angry about Elizabeth's reign, the fact that she was Anne's daughter and the fact that Elizabeth had no children to carry on the Tudor blood seems like something that would anger Henry to me. 

 

I know with all of the many other good things Elizabeth did that he should be proud (whether he knew from beyond the grave or a simple “if” scenario) but Henry was a real wild card.


I can't imagine Henry VIII (as he was in his earthly life) taking pride in Elizabeth's reign at all.  Doing so would require him to admit he was mistaken in his beliefs that a Queen could not successfully hold and rule the nation.

 

I do believe in life after death and I'd like to believe that Henry knew his least loved, least valued child trumped pretty much any British monarch .  I'd like to believe he learned from his mistake.  

April 4, 2012
11:11 am
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juliane
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I think that he would have been secretly proud of Elizabeth. Then, he would have turned around and said with a blink, “She did better than I!!” and then some.

April 4, 2012
7:42 pm
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Mya Elise
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Elizabeth did alot of proud worthy things but I agree that he most likely had mixed feelings towards her. Mainly because she was Anne’s daughter, he wanted to erase everything that reminded him of Anne but he couldn’t with Elizabeth. I think he cared for her but still wanted to hate her and even though he tried I don’t think he could. If Henry had seen how his children ended up then I think he would of been proud of Elizabeth the most out of all of them, Edward wasn’t even King long enough to do anything to be proud of, and Mary…oh good Lord Mary, she had issues from the day Henry did a 360 on Katherine. She had so much hatred and anger in her that I think she took it out on others when she was Queen and she wanted someone to love her so much but it didn’t happen, her husband was a jerk. But then again Maybe Henry would never want to say he was proud of Elizabeth because she was a better ruler than he was and she did twice as much good then he did and she didn’t kill any spouses on the way!

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

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