12:39 pm
October 27, 2010
Hey everyone,
*nervous smile* I'm new here. I joined because like all of you I've got a crazy obsession with a truly amazing Queen. 🙂 Basically, I need some advice. I have to to a project for my History exam and I chose to base mine on the incredible Anne. Only I cant seem to pick a title or main point to focus on.
I had the idea of doing it on Anne and her contribution to the Reformation but it might prove to be a little difficult. What do yous think ? I was thinking something along the lines of 'the downfall of Anne' but do you think thats a little to basic ? It a 5 or 6 page project for my leaving cert (ireland). I bought Alison Weir's book Lady in the Tower (a great read I must say) so i'm using that as one of my sources and this website of course! 🙂 so im not really stuck for material or info but I really need some advice as to which aspect of her life to focus on . .
Many Thanks.
10:45 pm
August 12, 2009
I don't think the downfall of Anne is too basic for 5-6 pages. Alison Weir devoted a whole book to it! You could discuss the various theories about the cause of her downfall and then wrap up with which theory you find most believable to you and why. Was it all Cromwell? Was it all Henry? Was it entirely the Seymours? Was it for political, religious, or dynastic reasons? Was it some combination of any of the above? What differences are there in a trial of law now vs then? Did Anne have a fair trial? How much influence over Henry, religiously, did Anne really wield? Would she have considered herself a Protestant (even if the term didn't exist, then), or was she a Catholic trying to reform the Church from within?
You might have trouble confining it to just 5-6 pages! Good luck! And have fun.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
2:09 am
October 27, 2010
Good ideas! Thanks for your help. I guess i just hate discussing her downfall 🙁 but i'm sure it would be worthwhile investigating. Also, if I talk about different theories throughout and then elaborate on one that I think is most likely to have happened, do you think that would be acceptable ? Again thanks for your quick reply, you gave me some great ideas
6:20 am
October 27, 2010
11:11 pm
August 12, 2009
Hmm. I want to say no, but think that actually could have been part of it. Her outspokenness about reform and her influence over Henry (giving him that 'heretical' book) made her enemies among the Catholic factions at court while her sharp tongue alienated some of her previous supporters. So, when Henry started to get antsy about whether or not Anne could give him a son, there were plenty of folks willing to help take her down for their own various reasons. In my opinion, of course. I think her downfall was a combination of reasons; religious animosity, resentment of her political and personal power (and her usurpation of theirs), and getting rid of the Boleyn faction at court. All at a time when Henry's eyes were wandering toward Jane, and he was upset over the loss of yet another baby.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
12:31 pm
July 9, 2009
Paperplane93 said:
In your opinion, do you think Annes beliefs play any part in her downfall ?
From what I understand, the Anne Boleyn play at The Globe has Anne saying “this is what got me killed” while holding up an English Bible. Henry's beliefs prevaricated and fluctuated. According to the book I happen to be reading right now. Royal Affairs, subtitled A Lusty Romp Through the Extramarital Adventures That Rocked the British Monarchy, “The chronological catalogue of Henry's six wives also mirrors the tenor of his time, and the shifting sands of religious upheaval and the swinging pendulum of his court's political factions. Catholic, Reformer, Catholic, Lutheran, Catholic, Reformer.” I do have some issues with this assessment- Anne of Cleves was technically a Catholic and Catherine Parr would've probably considered herself a Lutheran. Also, it says that Anne Boleyn's indictment had a choice of “burning or execution”, which doesn't make sense at all. Anyhow, my point is that yes, you can make a case that Anne's beliefs contributed to her downfall.
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
1:15 pm
October 27, 2010
Thanks for your thoughts, I suppose I could make some valid points about her beliefs being connected with her downfall. The project is coming along nicely. . well the first draft is anyway. I'm still a little confused though. Cromwell felt Anne was a threat but I don't see how ? Wasn't he a supporter of hers from the start ? I cant seem to find enough information on it. Everything just seems to say Anne was a threat to Cromwell and it doesn't go into much for detail I read somthing about the two of them disagreeing about the dissolution of monasteries but I wasn't able to pick up anymore that that. I know Cromwell wanted Anne out of the picture but was it more Anne who felt Cromwell was a threat to her ?
6:40 pm
August 12, 2009
They had argued quite heatedly, but had seemed to make up before Anne's fall. From what I remember, Anne thought the monies and properties gained from the dissolution of the monasteries should go toward schools, hospitals, etc. Cromwell agreed, but Henry was keen on putting everything into his own pocket, and Cromwell was a yes-man. Anne had threatened him, which must have alarmed him, but he was more afraid of Henry than Anne.
Bringing Anne down would have solved Cromwell's problem neatly; he makes Henry happy on two fronts (by helping him pocket the proceeds from the monasteries, and getting him out of a marriage he seems to have no longer wanted), and he defangs the person who had threatened him in the past, and might again in the future, Anne.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
2:16 am
October 27, 2010
12:47 pm
August 3, 2010
Well, first of all, welcome to the AB Files!! Sorry for replying so late but I agree that the fall of Anne is a great topic. Another topic would be the courtship of Anne by Henry? That has tons of material, but perhaps it's too long for 5-6 pages (depends how small the font is…). Or you could even develop an interesting theory/thesis and expand off that, about the Reformation or her relationship with others (such as Mary Tudor or her family), etc. Hope this helps 🙂
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
9:42 am
July 9, 2009
Have you read Eric Ives' biography of Anne, Paperplane93? He goes into some detail about Anne's fall and the part Cromwell played in it. I think a lot of it had to do with politics. Spain and France were traditionally England's enemies and Henry switched on and off between detente and hostility between the two nations. For example, depending on which way the political winds were blowing, the Princess Mary was variously betrothed to the dauphin of France and Charles the Holy Roman Emperor (she ended up marrying his son). Cromwell's greatest strength lay in his understanding of politics. Anne represented the French alliance for better or worse, and when relations between England and France started turning sour, Cromwell, knowing his sovereign like he did, understood that Anne would have to go in order to achieve an alliance with Spain. It was an unfortunate coincidence that Anne's predecessor had been Spanish, otherwise her removal wouldn't have been so crucial.
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
11:17 am
August 3, 2010
I agree with Melissa, you should definitely pick up Eric Ives' biography!! Also, if you're going to do a paper on the fall of Anne Boleyn, you could try Alison Weir's The Lady in the Tower: The Fall of Anne Boleyn. I like it and it reads like a novel but I have to say I think Ives' is probably more informative. However his is about Anne's entire life, while Weir's is speficic for Anne's fall.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
12:41 pm
October 27, 2010
No sadly I haven't been able to get my hands on a copy, my local library doesn't have it and neither does a few of the bookshops I checked. Also, my mother is reluctant to let me use her credit card so amazon is out of the question *rolls eyes*.
I have luckily been able to pick up a copy of The lady in the Tower, only i spilled cranberry juice all over it and some pages are gone funny but thankfully its still readable
Right now im just making some notes out, I have to write out aims and then do note on each.
So at the minute im doing the relationship between Cromwell and Anne. Weir has some interesting and useful notes on that.
I definitely think most people overlook Cromwells role in her downfall. It's going to be difficult to confine it so just 6 pages, I wrote so many notes already and it doesnt even cover all my aims.
I might drive out of town to look for that book. What has started out as a school project has now turned into a hobby She really is fascinating.
Also I wanted to write a little bit about why Anne was executed and not divorced. Would I be right in saying that it was because if Henry divorced Anne then his marriage to Catherine would have been valid and Mary would have inherited the throne? I read something like that but I'm not sure it's right.
Thanks for you help I really appreciate it, I'll try to keep my post shorter next time.
4:40 pm
August 12, 2009
Paperplane93 said:
Also I wanted to write a little bit about why Anne was executed and not divorced. Would I be right in saying that it was because if Henry divorced Anne then his marriage to Catherine would have been valid and Mary would have inherited the throne? I read something like that but I'm not sure it's right.
Thanks for you help I really appreciate it, I'll try to keep my post shorter next time.
Your posts aren't long! Not for this place, anyway. I think that was the basic idea for Anne's death. Henry didn't want his children by Jane (or someone else) having to give way to Mary or even Elizabeth. He wanted a son to succeed him. Before Katharine's death, he had inquired about the possibility of ending his marriage to Anne without having to go back to Katharine. Had Katharine lived longer, I think there could have been the possibility of Anne being 'merely' one more wife he'd put aside.
But with Katharine dead, those who had refused to recognize his marriage to Anne now considered him to be a widower, albeit with the 'impediment' of a woman he'd publicly proclaimed to be his wife and queen, and with whom he'd fathered a child. With Anne dead also, he's free to remarry by anyone's standards. He gets to wipe the slate clean and start all over again. And it would be no big deal to bastardize Mary and Elizabeth, as they were 'merely' daughters, and he was going to have sons by Jane.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
Hi Paperplane93,
I too would recommend the Eric Ives book. You could have a look on Amazon and Ebay and see if there are any cheap second hand copies going cheap or why not ask your library to order it in. It is THE best book on Anne Boleyn.
If you're concentrating on Anne Boleyn's Fall, I wrote a series of posts as a kind of diary of her fall leading up to 19th May. If you go to /anne/the-events-of-may-1536/ you will find links to each of them and you might also find the articles listed at /anne/the-fall-of-anne-boleyn/ useful.
Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn