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Justified Death?
November 18, 2012
12:41 am
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Jorja05
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I have read many books on Queen Anne since I was a child and I have always been fascinated by her. When we first learnt about the Tudors when I was 9 in school the teacher asked: “Who is your favourite Wife?” Loads said Jane because Henry VIII liked her best, some said Catherine of Aragon because she was kind and finally, a few said Catherine Parr because she didn’t die. I have always said Anne Boleyn, which shocked the teacher because throughout history she has been branded as an adulteress. Myself, I cannot believe that Anne committed these crimes, she had too much to lose. People say she was cruel and vindictive but I think she was wonderful. I feel that the evidence used against her was fabricated so that the King could marry plain Jane, who, may I add, was just as cunning and clever. She also killed a former Queen and made a child a neglected bastard, so why does everybody rave about her? She may have had a boy but, lets face it, look how he turned out. Anne made Elizabeth, a formidable Queen, who put her own feelings aside for this country. Anne may have had a cruel streak but then who doesn’t? Her husband had even more of a cruel streak and it is argued that Anne made him like that. Maybe, if Catherine of Aragon hadn’t been fighting him all of the time and left with grace as Anne of Cleeves did then he wouldn’t have been fighting with everyone all of the time. Anne may have influenced Henry into thinking he was God and Master on Earth but others fed his vanity with more influence for their own gains, such as Cromwell and Cranmer. Anne lost her head because she did not have a son, but the pressure that must have been on her! Jane didn’t help. Anne was a Christian, who often read the Bible and believed in God so why would she have sex with her brother and commit such a sin? I believe Lady Rochford was jealous of them and made that up to remain in the King’s good graces and the Boleyn empire fell. I do not believe that Anne had so many lovers, let alone one outside of her marriage to the King, I mean, Smeaton! A musician? Why would she risk it and lower herself? She was not stupid like Katherine Howard, she knew the rules. I believe she was unjustly killed and wondered whether everybody feels the same way?

November 18, 2012
2:04 am
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Boleyn
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Katherine Howard was far from stupid in the accepted sence of the word, she was given a basic education and could read and write, but she certainly wasn’t a learned as either K.O.A, Anne or K.P. K.H made a lot of wrong turns in her life and ultimetly paid the price. so from that point of view she was stupid, but hey she was only a kid don’t all kids screw up from time to time?
I totally agree with you about Anne, no way did she deserve to die anymore than K.H did.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 18, 2012
8:24 am
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Gill
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I think Anne’s fall was the result of a political coup rather than just because she didn’t produce a son – lets face it, they had only been married three years! I think Henry was kind of tired of her and allowed her enemies to bring her down, so that he could marry Jane. I personally think Jane Seymour was a cold and manipulative person who was quite happy to see her predecessor die so she could have the crown – even Anne wasn’t guilty of that: she expected Henry to divorce KOA, not kill her. I agree, she did not deserve to die and the charges against her were completely trumped up.

November 18, 2012
11:56 am
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Boleyn
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The charges levelled at Anne were so laughable that a good lawyer (Louise springs to mind here) would be able to argue the fact about them and get them to be declared as inadmissible. In short the whole case would be thrown out. The only crime (loosely worded) Anne commited was the fact she failed in her expected womanly duty to give Henry a son. Hardly a crime is it?
One of the charges was that she had sex with Smeaton whilst at Windsor, she was at Windsor yes, but she was recovering from a miscarriage at the time this fabricated incident happened. What amazes me that Cromwell seemed to get away with such fabricated evidence? Henry surely would have known that some of the things Cromwell said in his paperwork was lies? why didn’t he say something? A man who turned the world upside down all for the love of one woman, and made sure what he did was seen a legal everywhere, would surely want the same facts and figures when turning the world inside out to get rid of her?
We all known that K.O.A was given a lawyer of sorts to argue her case, why wasn’t Anne given that same right? Did she chose not to have someone to defend her? or did Henry feel so threatened by what Anne might say about him, that he refused to allow her council. In which case in the modern world the case and subsequent judgement against her would be ruled as unsafe and she would possibly be aquitted of all charges.
Lets face it Henry was nothing more than a Arsehat and everything he did always resulted in someone else’s life being completely destroyed.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 18, 2012
1:44 pm
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Scott tudor
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I feel as tho Anne knew her cards were marked no matter how much she would fight her cause , i think she worried about Elizabeth and any repercussions on any actions would/could be aimed at her daughter?, we all know how we worry about our kids, i feels as if Anne just gave up and let the dogs have there feast. so sad :(

November 18, 2012
2:16 pm
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Boleyn
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Scott tudor said

I feel as tho Anne knew her cards were marked no matter how much she would fight her cause , i think she worried about Elizabeth and any repercussions on any actions would/could be aimed at her daughter?, we all know how we worry about our kids, i feels as if Anne just gave up and let the dogs have there feast. so sad :(

Anne went through bouts of euphoria and depression whilst in the Tower. I agree she perhaps knew that her time was up, although I don’t think she believed she would actually die, I read somewhere ages ago that she was told that Henry was simply going to divorce her and send her into a convent. He even made the suggestion to her that she give up all rights, (meaning Elizabeth’s rights) and retire abroad with Elizabeth. Anne wasn’t stupid on that score she knew, that if she did that neither she or Elizabeth would live long enough to enjoy the divorce settlement Henry gave her. Anne was a woman of tremendious courage and strength, once she realised that Henry was wanted her head she did everything she could to assure her daughter wouldn’t suffer. In short she sacrificed her own life to spare Elizabeth. Anne was just more than a religious liberator and reformer she helped shaped the world (Via Elizabeth) to what we are today.
I often wonder just how she would feel about Elizabeth’s reign I’ve no doubt she would be extremely proud of her. I also wonder how Anne would feel about all those today who love her and champion her. Me thinks with a time machine Henry would find it very difficult to get away with her Murder in fact he would probably find himself on the end of a rope for it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 18, 2012
5:28 pm
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Bella44
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It would have to be an industrial strength rope

November 18, 2012
5:40 pm
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Boleyn
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Bella44 said

It would have to be an industrial strength rope

A steel rope should just about do the trick Bella.
We could also keel haul the fat lump with any luck the fat sod should drown.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 18, 2012
8:29 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

One of the charges was that she had sex with Smeaton whilst at Windsor, she was at Windsor yes, but she was recovering from a miscarriage at the time this fabricated incident happened. What amazes me that Cromwell seemed to get away with such fabricated evidence? Henry surely would have known that some of the things Cromwell said in his paperwork was lies? why didn’t he say something? A man who turned the world upside down all for the love of one woman, and made sure what he did was seen a legal everywhere, would surely want the same facts and figures when turning the world inside out to get rid of her?

I seem to remember if Anne and at least one of the men had had sex, he must have extremely well-endowed since they were in different places..

We all known that K.O.A was given a lawyer of sorts to argue her case, why wasn’t Anne given that same right? Did she chose not to have someone to defend her? or did Henry feel so threatened by what Anne might say about him, that he refused to allow her council. In which case in the modern world the case and subsequent judgement against her would be ruled as unsafe and she would possibly be aquitted of all charges.

2 different types of trail. One was on the legality of their marriage which was a religious matter and the other was a secular offense for the most part, though adultry did fall under the auspeces of the church. Treason trials did tend to be very much a he said/she said kind of trial. I don’t think Thomas Moore had a lawyer either.

It's always bunnies.

November 18, 2012
9:01 pm
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Scott tudor
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Boleyn said

Scott tudor said

I feel as tho Anne knew her cards were marked no matter how much she would fight her cause , i think she worried about Elizabeth and any repercussions on any actions would/could be aimed at her daughter?, we all know how we worry about our kids, i feels as if Anne just gave up and let the dogs have there feast. so sad :(

Anne went through bouts of euphoria and depression whilst in the Tower. I agree she perhaps knew that her time was up, although I don’t think she believed she would actually die, I read somewhere ages ago that she was told that Henry was simply going to divorce her and send her into a convent. He even made the suggestion to her that she give up all rights, (meaning Elizabeth’s rights) and retire abroad with Elizabeth. Anne wasn’t stupid on that score she knew, that if she did that neither she or Elizabeth would live long enough to enjoy the divorce settlement Henry gave her. Anne was a woman of tremendious courage and strength, once she realised that Henry was wanted her head she did everything she could to assure her daughter wouldn’t suffer. In short she sacrificed her own life to spare Elizabeth. Anne was just more than a religious liberator and reformer she helped shaped the world (Via Elizabeth) to what we are today.
I often wonder just how she would feel about Elizabeth’s reign I’ve no doubt she would be extremely proud of her. I also wonder how Anne would feel about all those today who love her and champion her. Me thinks with a time machine Henry would find it very difficult to get away with her Murder in fact he would probably find himself on the end of a rope for it.

Thanks :)

Yes i think she would have been so proud of her daughter, i have always been very drawn to these two historical figures, on seeing visiting Elizabeth’s tomb at westminster i had major goosebumps going on she fascinates yet terrifies me at the same time for some reason.

I would love the time machine idea, i would have paid good money to see Henry’s head on the block :)

November 18, 2012
9:03 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn said

One of the charges was that she had sex with Smeaton whilst at Windsor, she was at Windsor yes, but she was recovering from a miscarriage at the time this fabricated incident happened. What amazes me that Cromwell seemed to get away with such fabricated evidence? Henry surely would have known that some of the things Cromwell said in his paperwork was lies? why didn’t he say something? A man who turned the world upside down all for the love of one woman, and made sure what he did was seen a legal everywhere, would surely want the same facts and figures when turning the world inside out to get rid of her?
We all known that K.O.A was given a lawyer of sorts to argue her case, why wasn’t Anne given that same right? Did she chose not to have someone to defend her? or did Henry feel so threatened by what Anne might say about him, that he refused to allow her council. In which case in the modern world the case and subsequent judgement against her would be ruled as unsafe and she would possibly be aquitted of all charges.
Lets face it Henry was nothing more than a Arsehat and everything he did always resulted in someone else’s life being completely destroyed.

Cromwell added wording to the charges. I can’t remember exactly what the words were but they went something like…they met on the dates mentioned and/or on other occasions. Sorry if that’s way off. Of course Henry knew the dates were wrong, but he didn’t want Anne around anymore. That’s how Cromwell got away with it. His boss said word it so there is no way out. Truth was unimportant here.

People who were charged with treason during Henry’s time were not given lawyers.

November 19, 2012
12:20 am
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Gill
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I agree Sharon, I read somewhere that people charged with treason were neither allowed a defence lawyer, nor even told the specific charges until the trial itself. How could anyone defend themselves adequately in those circumstances? Of course, that was the point…Henry did not want them aquitted.

November 19, 2012
11:56 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Boleyn said

One of the charges was that she had sex with Smeaton whilst at Windsor, she was at Windsor yes, but she was recovering from a miscarriage at the time this fabricated incident happened. What amazes me that Cromwell seemed to get away with such fabricated evidence? Henry surely would have known that some of the things Cromwell said in his paperwork was lies? why didn’t he say something? A man who turned the world upside down all for the love of one woman, and made sure what he did was seen a legal everywhere, would surely want the same facts and figures when turning the world inside out to get rid of her?

I seem to remember if Anne and at least one of the men had had sex, he must have extremely well-endowed since they were in different places..

We all known that K.O.A was given a lawyer of sorts to argue her case, why wasn’t Anne given that same right? Did she chose not to have someone to defend her? or did Henry feel so threatened by what Anne might say about him, that he refused to allow her council. In which case in the modern world the case and subsequent judgement against her would be ruled as unsafe and she would possibly be aquitted of all charges.

2 different types of trail. One was on the legality of their marriage which was a religious matter and the other was a secular offense for the most part, though adultry did fall under the auspeces of the church. Treason trials did tend to be very much a he said/she said kind of trial. I don’t think Thomas Moore had a lawyer either.

Thank you Anyanka.
So in affect anyone accused of treason was dead even if they had commited treason or not? I wonder why those accused of treason were not allowed Council? Was it perhaps to do with what was allegely said by the accused and the fear that these words would spread and become Trouble with a capital T? Fact is what words were considered treason? Plotting again the King’s life was one, or saying things like Buckingham did” If Henry dies and Mary dies I shall be King”. But as far as I can tell the only thing that Anne said which was a little near the mark was the dead man’s shoes remark she made to Norris, but as she didn’t mention Henry’s name in that statement I don’t think that could be classed as treasonous. Yes I heard about the accusation with one of the men accused of carnal relations with Anne I believe she was at Whithall and he was at Hampton court. With a doodle that long, he could use it as a winter scarf.
Thomas More was a lawyer himself so would have defended himself if he had been able, in fact given how brilliant he was he probably would have been able to get his whole trial exposed for what it was, “A farce”

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 19, 2012
5:52 pm
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Neil Kemp
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If you’ve plenty of time to spare you could try “The Tudor Law Of Treason” by John Bellamy. Which could explain this law during Tudor times, or it could just make your brain hurt instead! books.google.co.uk/books/…/The_Tudor_Law_of_Treason.html?id
Sorry, can’t get the above to come up as a direct link, probably my lack of computer skillsEmbarassed. You’ll just have to google the book title

November 19, 2012
8:48 pm
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Boleyn
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I now understand why Anne went through periods of euphoria and depression whilst in the Tower, the first trial was to divorce her from Henry, which generally resulted in the divorcee in this case Anne going into a convent, (possibly taking Elizabeth with her) whilst freeing Henry from any obligation to her and thus being able to marry again with a clear conscious. That would of course been the normal course of events, as it was with K.O.A. However this wasn’t the case for Henry divorce simply wasn’t enough and he wanted Anne dead at all costs, that’s where Cromwell came in and fabricated lies which were enough to convince the court that Anne was a traitor. That was the end of Anne.
In K.H’s case she did commit adultery if you except there was a pre contract with Dereham,(I believe that she had an understanding with him that they would marry when time and tide were right) but she in no way cuckolded Henry with Culpepper.
Equally so she didn’t deserve to die and neither did Dereham after all what had they actually done wrong? O.k so they had sex, but wasn’t sex permissionable between a contracted couple? Henry’s rage against K.H was not so much to do with the fact he’s been made a fool of (although that was a tiny part of it) it was more down to the fact of “well if I can’t have her then no one else will either” “Off with her head”..

“Jorja” As far as I know Lady Rochford didnt say anything about George and Anne, In fact she and Anne had quite a cordial relationship, and there was one occation where Jane B confronted one of Henry’s supossed mistresses and gave her a slap for daring to play with Henry.
Cromwell was all out to destroy the Boleyns and blackened everyone who was connected with them or at least tried to.
If Jane B had been guilty of saying was she was alledged to have said about Anne and George I doubt very much she would ever be allowed anywhere near the court again and least of all to serve the next 3 Queens.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 19, 2012
11:07 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

“Jorja” As far as I know Lady Rochford didnt say anything about George and Anne, In fact she and Anne had quite a cordial relationship, and there was one occation where Jane B confronted one of Henry’s supossed mistresses and gave her a slap for daring to play with Henry.
Cromwell was all out to destroy the Boleyns and blackened everyone who was connected with them or at least tried to.
If Jane B had been guilty of saying was she was alledged to have said about Anne and George I doubt very much she would ever be allowed anywhere near the court again and least of all to serve the next 3 Queens.

Jane certainly wouldn’t want to harm her sister-in-law’s marriage in the early days. That was why she plotted with Anne to remove one of Henry’s “ladies” from court being exiled for her pains. And if Anne had told Jane about Henry’s …err…short-comings, then she must have had a good relationship with her.

Certainly if there was any taint attached to her, I doubt she would have been welcome at court.Henry had some very strange ideas at times and Jane Seymour wanted her ladies court to be far more “moral” than Anne’s so she wouldn’t have wanted a lady with a suspicious past in attendance on her.

Julia Fox’s book about Jane is a good read about Tudor upper-class women and their expectations. There’s some good insights into Jane’s life, too.

It's always bunnies.

November 23, 2012
5:50 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Boleyn said

“Jorja” As far as I know Lady Rochford didnt say anything about George and Anne, In fact she and Anne had quite a cordial relationship, and there was one occation where Jane B confronted one of Henry’s supossed mistresses and gave her a slap for daring to play with Henry.
Cromwell was all out to destroy the Boleyns and blackened everyone who was connected with them or at least tried to.
If Jane B had been guilty of saying was she was alledged to have said about Anne and George I doubt very much she would ever be allowed anywhere near the court again and least of all to serve the next 3 Queens.

Jane certainly wouldn’t want to harm her sister-in-law’s marriage in the early days. That was why she plotted with Anne to remove one of Henry’s “ladies” from court being exiled for her pains. And if Anne had told Jane about Henry’s …err…short-comings, then she must have had a good relationship with her.

Certainly if there was any taint attached to her, I doubt she would have been welcome at court.Henry had some very strange ideas at times and Jane Seymour wanted her ladies court to be far more “moral” than Anne’s so she wouldn’t have wanted a lady with a suspicious past in attendance on her.

Julia Fox’s book about Jane is a good read about Tudor upper-class women and their expectations. There’s some good insights into Jane’s life, too.

Thank You Anyanka:
I totally agree. However Jane must have been a very tough lady, as there would have been people at court who would have heard the rumours that Jane sent both George and Anne to the scaffold, because she was jealous Blah blah blah, and perhaps whispered in corners to any newcomers to avoid her etc, so fair play on Jane riding out the storm. I sort of understand now why K.H and Culpepper blamed Jane for their naughty behaviour, they too would have heard the rumours about Jane and found her to be a convienient scapegoat. Small wonder poor Jane lost her wits and reason for a while, the mental strain she must have been under from the time of George and Anne’s murders must have been tremendious.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 23, 2012
8:09 pm
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Sharon
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Rumors about Jane sending George and Anne to the scaffold did not start until after her death. She was accepted back at court quite readily after their deaths. With the jointure she received, she was well off. She could have retired from court; but she had been at court for the better part of her life, and she chose to return. The court may have talked about the fact that her husband was beheaded along with her sister-in-law for treason, but at that point there were no whispers that Jane’s testimony had condemned them. Everyone knew who the culprit for that debacle was. Henry was feared by his court for good reason after that mess.

November 23, 2012
10:03 pm
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Louise
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Sharon said

Rumors about Jane sending George and Anne to the scaffold did not start until after her death. She was accepted back at court quite readily after their deaths. With the jointure she received, she was well off. She could have retired from court; but she had been at court for the better part of her life, and she chose to return. The court may have talked about the fact that her husband was beheaded along with her sister-in-law for treason, but at that point there were no whispers that Jane’s testimony had condemned them. Everyone knew who the culprit for that debacle was. Henry was feared by his court for good reason after that mess.

I agree. Jane is read backwards (that came from Julia Fox not me; I’m not that clever)!
Henry was advised by different factions, and he was influenced by different factions, but I find it hard to accept that his ego allowed him to become a patsy(sp?). He wasn’t stupid, and the portrayal of him as a King who was led by the nose by the likes of Cromwell makes him appear weak and rather foolish (cMantel). There’s a thread on this site asking what influence Henry’s wives had on him. I think they had as much influence on Henry as Henry allowed them to have. When Anne continued to try and exert influence after she had fallen from Henry’s affections he killed her. It wasn’t the sole reason for Anne’s demise, but it was one reason. Henry accepted advice if it resulted in him getting what he wanted, and he was influenced as far as he was prepared to be influenced. It all came down to him in the end.

November 24, 2012
3:39 am
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Anyanka
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Given the very able men who were promoted by the raise of Anne, Anne’s influence extended thoughout Henry’s reign and beyond. Cramner was proably the best known of her inner circle and he continued to prosper until the death of Edward VI. Had Edward liived or fathered a child…who knows how Cramner would have altered the English and world stage..

You have to argue that the Seymour brothers also propsered by Anne’s raise..they saw how a ordinary woman could aspire to the consort’s throne and have real behind the scenes power over the king before and after marriage. And how thier family would benefit.

It's always bunnies.

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