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10:56 am
August 25, 2010
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Hmmm ok, well you are probably bored of my rambling posts by now but oh well, lol. Alright, if you recall the 1870's book I located stated that there is a possible picture of these two girls (Mary and Elizabeth Boleyn) at Birr Castle. The book states that the Boleyn's are connected to the family of Parsons, Baronet's of Birr Castle, through the family Clere. I did some digging and found that Clere firsts enters the mix at Birr in 1754 when Sir William Parsons 4th Baronet marries Mary Clere. From there I dug some more because my initial thinking was that our George had a child with a Clere or something. However, the connect I found from the family Clere to the family Boleyn is that our Queen Anne's aunt, Alice Boleyn, married Sir Robert Clere around 1506. Now I guess the whole connection to Birr Castle doesn't really matter as we don't really know anything about that picture that is said to be Mary and Elizabeth but who knows, if it is them it has to have a reason to be there and a means of how it got there.
Oh, just a funny thing … most of us know that our Queen Anne's other aunt, also named Anne, was married to a John Shelton. Well, John's dad, Ralph, was actually married to Robert Clere's (from above) sister, Margaret. In other words Alice's sister-in-law was married to Anne's father-in-law. 
I did find out that cousin-german, from another of my pervious posts, means first cousin which I didn't know. I was thinking it meant a cousin from Germany, hahaha!
To me it's pretty obvious that our George had a child with someone other than Jane but it's going to kill me not being able to link it all together. 
I was hoping that he had one with a Clere, couldn't just be that simple huh.
God, can you tell I am bored at work … LOL
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
11:27 am
August 3, 2010
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Yes definitely, ipaud! Thanks a billion!
On the official Clonony Castle website there is a picture of a transcription that says this exactly, copied word for word (and spelling for spelling, haha): “Here under leys Elizabeth and Mary Bullyn, daughters of Thomas Bullyn, son of George Bullyn the son of George Bullyn Viscount Rochford son of Sir Thomas Bullyn Erle of Ormond and Willsheere.” So that would make Elizabeth and Mary “Bullyn”…second cousins of Elizabeth and grand-grand-nieces of Anne?
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
12:05 pm
August 25, 2010
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Boleynfan said:
Yes definitely, ipaud! Thanks a billion!
On the official Clonony Castle website there is a picture of a transcription that says this exactly, copied word for word (and spelling for spelling, haha): “Here under leys Elizabeth and Mary Bullyn, daughters of Thomas Bullyn, son of George Bullyn the son of George Bullyn Viscount Rochford son of Sir Thomas Bullyn Erle of Ormond and Willsheere.” So that would make Elizabeth and Mary “Bullyn”…second cousins of Elizabeth and grand-grand-nieces of Anne?
Hmm I believe that would make them third cousins of Elizabeth I, George would be her first cousin, then Thomas, then these girls. 
Ok, found some more interesting reading on the Clere/Boleyn family that I won't go into detail with but, this Clere family (from above) is the same that branched into Irland and landed at Birr Castle. So, maybe George's possible son, also named George, became a ward of one of his Aunt Alice's children (Clere children) and went with them to Ireland and upon their arrival they stayed in the Clonony Castle as it was a Boleyn home?!
http://books.google.com/books?…..mp;f=false
http://books.google.com/books?…..38;f=false
Oh, and it seems these families reallly liked each other because Thomas Clere, son of Queen Anne's Aunt Alice, was to marry his cousin Mary Shelton, daughter of Queen Anne's Aunt Anne, but he died before they could. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T…..omas_Clere
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
7:53 am
August 3, 2010
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Wow, this is all so interesting. I think I might actually (no joke) write about this, biography-style. It would be fun, no?
I wonder if Elizabeth–and George, Anne, and Thomas for that matter–ever knew about these cousins. There would be another line of Boleyn relations if the two girls had children. Also, I wonder, was George son of George Rochford Jane Boleyn nee Parker's son, or an illegitimate son born to another woman? An illegitimate child would be likely, considering how much Jane hated George and how George flirted with many women and hated his wife like she hated him.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
8:50 am
June 19, 2009
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Hey Ladies,
I have an interest too, so its no problem to visit with the Boleyn's. I must plan my trip as I have passed the signs for Birr on the motorway to Dublin often, but have never been. From a quick look on the map, Birr castle is close by, so I will have a look there also, if I have time.
I have written that there is a guy who comes to my store who is from that area and is so knowledgeable on the history of the area of Ormond and Ossory. I have not seen him for a few weeks and am guessing that he might be on holidays at the moment. I know that he has a look into the AB files on occasion and if he saw this topic, he would join in. I have e-mailed the link for this topic to him this week. So, I hope to hear from him soon. I also mentioned that he is related to the Tudor line, he once explained it to me but lost me somewhere in the 17th century….
The relationship line to the Tudors for my friend John comes from Wales.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
6:31 pm
August 25, 2010
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boleynfan I would love to read what you write/think on the topic; it is very interesting … mostly because of the puzzle aspect. As there is no record of Jane having any children I too think this family stems from an illegitimate child of George but it's just odd that there is absolutely no information that we can tell on ANY of them, not just the direct said child.
ipaud I read that Birr Castle is still the residence of the Earl of Rosse so I don't think you can just go by. I have been to their website and was thinking about emailing their information center to see if this picture excists and if they know of a story behind it.
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
4:42 am
August 3, 2010
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TeamAnne, once I write about it if you want I can post it or something. I'm going to pool the information that ipaud gets and also do a little research on it myself (long distance though, so not nearly as valuable as ipauds, lol).
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
1:11 pm
June 19, 2009
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Just back from a visit to Clonony Castle where I met Rebecca the owner, a really fantastic lady! The best way to describe her is she is related to the Boleyn's ( not really but almost…) through the Astor's.
I will post more later, pictures are up on my facebook…
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
5:33 pm
August 3, 2010
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Thank you, ipaud!! SO excited to see your next post!!!!!!
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
6:27 pm
August 25, 2010
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Oh ipaud I can't wait to hear about your visit. So, I guess the owner is related to the Astor's that built on to Hever? Nifty! Can you pm me your facebook page so I can view the pictures? THANKS!!!!!
Found another thing that mentions this: A book much like the earlier one I found but done a couple of decades before that one.
http://books.google.com/books?…..38;f=false
I don't think it states anything too new but I am not good at reading words of the past. It does state that the picture at Birr is most certainly Mary and Elizabeth but it also states sadly that it is no long in existance due to a fire. It speaks of the Boleyn family fleeing to Ireland when the family fell out of favor I think?!
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
3:34 am
June 19, 2009
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First of all , Rebecca has no direct relationship with William Waldorf Astor, except in her enthusiasm is all things Boleyn. She is the most unassuming but knowledgeable person that I have met outside of here.
The link to George Boleyn is through illegitimate children that he had with some one, (I have not yet gotten the name, but soon). Rebecca came to the interest of some of the Boleyn family, one of whom has gifted much of the pictures and has been an inspiration to her. This Boleyn family member lives in Kent and sounds so interesting.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
4:06 am
June 19, 2009
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I got to show Rebecca the AB files and the various topics that we have discussed, she was so delighted to see such an interest in her castle. She does not do much on the Internet as the castle is her work and she has done so much in such a short time. It is possible to stay over night in the castle, however in the winter months, it is discouraged as it gets quite chilly in the night. The castle hosts parties of about 20 people at a time. It is possible to have a banquet with an interesting menu based on a Louis XV cook book that Rebecca got in the Palace of Versailles in Paris. It is based on a dinner with 52 courses, where one can pick a selection. The castle has had recently had a Wedding night where the couple had the castle to themselves.
However, be warned, the castle is on the Haunted Castle” list some visitors have come to stay and left before dawn. Personally, I found it to be a peaceful place and Rebecca who stays in the castle often herself, has had no trouble.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
4:28 am
August 25, 2010
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Thanks so much ipaud!! I am so glad that we may have the family soon; figured it was through an illegitimate child. I hope this Boleyn in Kent and Rebecca can help us to furthur solve the puzzle and acutally link everything together. Ipaud you're the best for going to Clonony, thanks!! What is your facebook page so I can view the pictures you took?
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
4:39 am
June 19, 2009
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There is some tragedy in the story of the Boleyn sisters that lived at Clonony. Apparently, Elisabeth was the first to die and Mary not being able to live without her sister threw herself to her death from the tower of the castle. They were both buried in the Quarry area behind the castle, under the stone with the “Bullen” markings as written already here in this topic. Adjacent to the castle is a canal built in the 19th century, the builders of the canal used the Quarry of the castle for limestone to build it. On finding the grave of the two Boleyn sisters, buried together, the rather large stone was moved to the front of the castle, where it still lies today. The remains of the two sisters were re-buried in a near by graveyard. Unfortunately, the exact location, no one knows. The gravestone was just inscribed on one end and the writing is quite small in context of quite a large stone. In Henry VIII time after the death of Anne Boleyn and until Elisabeth I took to the throne, any mention of “Bullen” was being erased from history. There was room to perhaps complete the gravestone when this purge was over? Attempts to move it since with modern machinery have failed maybe it lies where it should be? who knows?
There are pictures of the sisters at the castle, the resemblance to Elisabeth I is striking, so much so, I believed that i was looking at pictures of Elisabeth I and not Elisabeth and Mary Boleyn.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
5:48 am
August 25, 2010
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ipaud said:
There is some tragedy in the story of the Boleyn sisters that lived at Clonony. Apparently, Elisabeth was the first to die and Mary not being able to live without her sister threw herself to her death from the tower of the castle. They were both buried in the Quarry area behind the castle, under the stone with the “Bullen” markings as written already here in this topic. Adjacent to the castle is a canal built in the 19th century, the builders of the canal used the Quarry of the castle for limestone to build it. On finding the grave of the two Boleyn sisters, buried together, the rather large stone was moved to the front of the castle, where it still lies today. The remains of the two sisters were re-buried in a near by graveyard. Unfortunately, the exact location, no one knows. The gravestone was just inscribed on one end and the writing is quite small in context of quite a large stone. In Henry VIII time after the death of Anne Boleyn and until Elisabeth I took to the throne, any mention of “Bullen” was being erased from history. There was room to perhaps complete the gravestone when this purge was over? Attempts to move it since with modern machinery have failed maybe it lies where it should be? who knows?
There are pictures of the sisters at the castle, the resemblance to Elisabeth I is striking, so much so, I believed that i was looking at pictures of Elisabeth I and not Elisabeth and Mary Boleyn.
Oh my that is a great, yet tragic, story! They must have been so close, the portrait at Birr Castle had them listed as 17 and 18 years old at the time it was done. I wonder why they moved the remains, maybe they thought that wasn't a proper burial site?! Did Rebecca happen to know any dates associated with the girls, or if they had any siblings? I know I keep saying this but thank you ipaud! 
I found a little more on George Dean of Lichfield here:
http://books.google.com/books?…..mp;f=false
It states, however, that in his will he claims to be kinsman to Lord Hunsdon, grandson of Mary Boleyn, a Carey. But being a kinsman of his, wouldn't that make George (Dean) a Carey and not a Boleyn then?! I'm guessing this illegitimate child of our George and George (Dean) aren't one in the same then as I was thinking. So, confused, lol.
Oh, and I sent an email to Birr Castle asking about the portrait of Mary and Elizabeth and for help with any story behind it and this is what I just got back …
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
9:52 am
August 3, 2010
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THANK YOU IPAUD!!! What amazing information, I'm so excited to find this out!!! And TeamAnne, thanks so much for emailing Birr Castle. This is great!
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
10:07 am
August 25, 2010
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Boleynfan said:THANK YOU IPAUD!!! What amazing information, I'm so excited to find this out!!! And TeamAnne, thanks so much for emailing Birr Castle. This is great!
No problem, unfortunately subscribing to the Friends Scheme would be of no benegit to me as I can't get to Ireland. I did thank them for their quick response though and it seems the portrait is still there so that's cool! I just get so darn bored at work so this is like my pet project, lol. Only so much I can do from the internet though. I can't wait to hear more from ipuad!
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
10:26 am
February 24, 2010
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Thank you ipaud. What a tragic story though. I kind of thought illigitimacy was involved. So what happened to their Father George? I wonder why history doesn't account for George's illigitimate child and/or children. Curious.
10:39 am
June 19, 2009
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the remains were moved as the stone from the Quarry where the sisters were buried at the rear of the castle as required for the building of the adjacent canal. The sisters Boleyn were illegitimate daughters of George Boleyn Anne's brother as i understand it. Clonony Castle would have been part of the Ormond estate and it was left in a will by either George or his father Thomas.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
10:45 am
July 30, 2010
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Thank you Ipaud and ladies.Boy this thread is really getting interesting.It might be George had a child by a Clere cousin,just wish we could find the missing link so to speak. Interesting the portrait of Mary and Elizabeth Bolyen is still around.
As for why history doesn't account for George's illigitimate children I don't know.You would think something would be recorded some place.Of course, if he did have affairs, the women might have been just servants or town women ,so their names are lost to history.
If he had affairs with any lady at court, i assume it might be mentioned somewhere,hard to say.
