Anne Boleyn: The Other Woman
Posted By Claire on October 15, 2009
A Love Triangle
Today’s post was inspired by a comment that was left a few weeks ago by Aimee, who always leaves wonderfully thought-provoking comments. Aimee really got me thinking deeply about Anne and the triangle which existed between her, Catherine and Henry.
Obviously this whole website is a celebration of Anne Boleyn’s life and an attempt to debunk the myths about her but I don’t want to put her on a pedestal and go too far the other way. Anne Boleyn was not a goddess or a saint, she was a human being and a woman with flaws.
Anne Boleyn – Not So Innocent
Here is Aimee’s wonderful comment and you’ll see what I mean by thought provoking. By the way, I have not written this article to attack Aimee’s point of view so I do not want any attacking comments (I know you’re all lovely anyway!), I simply want to look at Anne from another perspective.
“This is a difficult comment for me to make, especially on a MB celebrating the best of Anne Boleyn. I have always admired and respected Anne Boleyn, and I’ve pitied her too. Her situation was far from enviable if one examines all the facts.
That said, yes, Anne Boleyn was indeed a “whore” and an “adulteress” by the standards of the time.
To those who feel she is “innocent” because she did not immediately consummate her relationship with Henry VIII, I ask this question: would you consider another woman “innocent” of adultery if she accepted love letters and gifts from your husband? If she accepted at least partial financial support and multiple favors from him?
There is such a thing as emotional love affairs and Anne and Henry had one. There is much evidence proving that, in the beginning, at least, Anne gave resistance, but ultimately she chose to acquiesce to Henry’s desires. She did not have to make that choice, other choices were available, and I won’t dispute they weren’t GOOD choices (banishment, exile, difficulty for her family, perhaps.) But the bottom line is that Anne made the choice to accept Henry (a married man’s) suit and support.
The King’s true marriage could not be dissolved without the intervention of what amounted to a kangaroo court for the times. If you were married in a Christian church and your husband married another in a Buddhist temple, would you consider yourself no longer married?
I don’t take issue with the terminology used to describe Anne’s position and behavior. It might sound cruel, but if the shoe fits you’ve got to wear it. I doubt even Henry’s strongest supporters really viewed Anne’s marriage as a true marriage.
I don’t take umbrage with Chapuy’s use of the term “concubine.” What else could Anne be called? For better or worse, she elected to accept the King’s suit, eventually had relations with him and conceived a child, and married him in a controversial private ceremony.
Ask yourselves if Katherine of Aragon was your next door neighbor, and her husband put her through similar treatment? What would you call his new significant other?”
Anne: The Other Woman
What a well thought out comment and thanks so much to Aimee for taking the time to leave it. But, it has left me in a quandary, and I don’t mind admitting that. Anne was indeed the “other woman”, the woman who ended Catherine and Henry’s marriage and I know that we all like to excuse this with the following reasons:-
- Henry VIII’s marriage to Catherine was already over, he had been considering an annulment and remarriage long before Anne.
- Henry had been unfaithful to Catherine many times.
- It wasn’t Anne’s fault, she had no choice in the matter and could not refuse a King.
But can we really excuse Anne’s actions?
What if Anne was the other woman in your life? What if she was the other woman to your friend’s husband? We all know or know of someone who has been hurt by their husband leaving them for another woman so perhaps we need to view Anne from Catherine’s perspective.
Yes, Anne held on to her virtue but perhaps it was this that brought about the end of Henry’s marriage. Perhaps if Anne had slept with him and become his mistress, even his one and only mistress, he would have stayed married to Catherine and finally got bored with Anne, like he did with others. Catherine could turn a blind eye to Henry’s mistresses because a King was expected to indulge in this way but Anne became a real threat.
Yes, Anne did seem to give him the brush-off at first, this is obvious from his letters to her, but, as Aimee says, she gave in in the end and made it clear that it was marriage or nothing. So, was she responsible for the marriage break-up? Was Henry’s complete infatuation with her and his lust her fault?
Do you see what I mean when I say I’m in a quandary?!
I can understand why Anne was seen as a whore and I’m sure that if I had been Catherine’s friend or a lady at Henry’s court then I would have thought this too. This Boleyn woman destroyed a royal marriage, dashed the hopes of a Spanish princess and true Queen of England, “bewitched” Henry with her sex appeal and charms, came between Henry and his daughter Mary and caused a complete uproar. Hmmm…
But…
Anne: The Victim?
As much as I can understand Catherine’s heartbreak and why Anne was vilified at the time, I hate the way that we still, as a society, heap all the blame on the other woman. Let’s see things from Anne’s perspective.
Anne was a single woman at the English court who had been noticed by the King, the most important man in England, a man who could destroy her and her family in one stroke or who could raise her and her family in the same way. It became apparent that Henry VIII wanted a relationship with her and her father had noticed it too and was probably encouraging it, after all, families got rewarded for pleasing the King. But Anne wasn’t just any young woman, she wanted more to her life than being a King’s mistress, like her sister had been, and was desperate to keep her virtue and reputation so that she could marry well and have a good life. So, Anne refused the King’s advances and made it clear that she was not interested, but this did not stop the King. Henry knew what he wanted and he had to have Anne. Nobody said no to a king and Henry was not accepting a refusal from a simple maiden!
We all know how the story went. Henry bombarded Anne with letters and Anne eventually relented. I do believe that she was intoxicated by Henry and fell in love with him, but I also believe that she really had no choice in the matter anyway. A “no” would have displeased Henry and I’m sure that this would have had consequences for both Anne’s position at court and that of her brother and father. Anne did the only thing she could to protect her reputation and her beliefs, she refused to become Henry’s mistress.
And what about Henry VIII? Why blame Anne and call her a “whore” or an “adulteress” anyway? She wasn’t married, HE was. I know that is a rather lame excuse but it just annoys me that the other woman gets the blame all the time! I don’t think Anne was actively looking to form a relationship with Henry and I don’t think she tried to tempt him or seduce him in any way. He came on to her and she refused. Let’s give her some credit.
I think I see Anne as a victim in this. I’m not sure that I agree entirely with historian Karen Lindsey’s view of Anne as a victim of sexual harassment – see my post Anne Boleyn: A Victim for further information – but I can see Anne as the deer of Wyatt’s poem “Whoso List to Hunt”, Henry’s prey. Henry was the one with all the power and Anne had none apart from her virtue. He hunted her down until she relented and she was as much a victim as Catherine, they were both pawns on the King’s chessboard.
Anyway, I’ve rambled far too much as usual, but it’s a complex subject. What do you think?
P.S. See today’s other post on “The Beasts of Hampton Court Palace”.
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32 Responses to “Anne Boleyn: The Other Woman”
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To Aimee: Thank you for sharing your point of view. I love reading and learning from such insightful words. I can understand how most people would feel that way about her.
However, I must agree with Claire. We cannot fully understand that love triangle, if we can only interpret it through the eyes of a modern day woman. Matters are completely different now that (for the most part) women have more options. A woman’s only treasure was her honor and her family. Sadly, women were controlled by their fathers, brothers and husbands. I believe that her intentions were not to seduce a married man. If her resolve led to the destruction of a marriage, how can she be held responsible? Her fate was, again, sadly in the hands of the males in her life. What little control she had, I believe, was exercised wisely in her refusal to submit to the King. There is no such thing as complete innocence, but did she choose to acquiesce or survive?
I agree with your point-of-view on this, Claire. To have refused the king’s advances in Tudor England would have been tantamount to bankrupting her family and any future chance her family had at success. Even that reason being put aside, we musn’t forget that in those days, Henry could have had Anne whether she wanted him or not–if he hadn’t respected her decision to abstain from sexual intercourse as long as they did, it would not have been considered a crime (rape) for Henry to take her anyway, even should she scream to the highest rafters.
Having said that, I have never thought Anne was an innocent, fragile, unwily woman who didn’t at some point merely hop on the bandwagon that was fatefully passing her–but I have thought that she had little choice to do so in order to make the best of a bad situation, unless she could have convinced her parents to put her in a convent–and once she caught the eye of the king, I doubt very much they would have put her in one anyway.
It’s not a simple debate, is it? But I think you might as well condemn the Donner party for being cannibals by choice rather than necessity in comparison to Anne Boleyn’s situation–would she have done what she did (commit adultery, sexual or emotional) if the circumstances had been otherwise? I think not. I think she and her family merely wanted her to make a good marriage and Henry intervened in the process to claim her as his own.
Hello all!
As I was reading Aimee’s post, I was thinking, “yeah, I would not like it if my husband was giving gifts to another woman”. And yeah, I can see how people would think of her as a whore consisering that she was the “other” woman. And wasn’t she very promiscous in her earlier years?
However, Anne was against the relationship with Henry from the beginning and she let him know it. She wanted to marry Harry Percy, and she didn’t want to end up like her sister. What choice did she have with Henry deterimined and her own family urging her so that they would have “status” and money. I agree that there is no such thing as complete innocence, but I really don’t think Anne committed adulty while married to Henry.
Does anyone have any comments on why Henry was so fixated on Anne and having her completly when he had so many other women (such as Betsy Blount, with whom he had a son), or Mary Bolelyn who also had his son. Henry didn’t seem to go out of his way to be with any other. Just curious. Thanks.
Julie B.
Thank you Aimee and Claire for an interesting debate. I think that part of the problem for one is that were names applied to Anne (adulteress, whore, concubine) because the woman was always blamed. However, more importantly you couldn’t call the king any such names (even under breath) without risking everything including your life. Many people were unhappy with the situation, and the only person they could blame was Anne. At the risk of sounding like my sons, Henry started it. Anne is not without blame, but I do think that with her family being so ambitious she didn’t have much choice in the beginning.
I to totally agree with the idea that Anne wasn’t a poor innocent lamb, but that she had no choice. Her only potential “carrier” was to marry a man of egal or superior ranking and bear him sons, mainly. I think that her plan was to say that she couldn’t loose her honor before her wedding. So, the king, crazy about her, would have found her a husband of a great family; then, after the wedding and the deflowering, he could have slept with her, and when he would have grown tired of her, she would have kept the husband, the titles and everything her surrendering would have been awarded. She surely dindn’t think of marriying the king himself. That was what happened to Elizabeth Shore, Edward IV’s mistress; Brantôme, a French writer of this time, said in his book “Les Dames Galantes” that it was usual for the kings and great lords to act this way, and there are many exemples.
Nothing new to add to the conversation, but that I agree that once Anne was singled out as the next mistress, I really cannot think of how she could have said no. She had loved Henry Percy & she couldn’t even marry him. It was entirely a man’s world, and I don’t see anyone able to disobey the wishes of her fahter, uncle and the KING and live peacefully. Anne saw how her sister was treated, and to her credit, she should NOT be seen as “the whore” because she made Henry wait 7 years before they consummated their union! THAT fact alone negates the theory she was a whore. She did what she had to do to survive in the situation that her ‘loved ones’ forced her into.
As far as Julie’s question,(why was Henry so fixated on Anne) Henry simply wanted that which he could not have. He believed in Royalty and played it to the hilt. He was a spoiled boy and became a viciously spoiled man. The church told him no, he breaks with the church.. Anne told him no.. he divorces his wife & England’s Queen of over 20 years to have Anne.. He got Anne, so he looked for another..he didn’t get an heir… he will keep trying till he gets what he wants…You get the point.
Anne Boleyn and others like her had no choice in the matter of becoming the ‘property’ of the king. You make comparisons ‘if Catherine was your next door neighbour’, but that is not the same, your neighbour is not the King of England. She was a flirt but some people are like that, and received gifts and favours but that was the way of their life at court, but that doesn’t mean they took it any further. She kept him at arms length for seven years, in which time Henry was celibate, so much was his obsession with Anne. He had never been this passionate about any other living woman before. Anne did not want his attention, for she had seen the way of her sister and did not want to go the same way, she just wanted a quiet life with her Henry Percy. But Henry was like a pit bull that had sunk and locked his teeth into his quarry, and would not let her go! and basically that was that, no normal life for Anne Boleyn. If it had not been Anne it would have been another woman. Henry wanted a male heir and would stop at nothing to get one. Both Catherine and Anne failed to produce a living male and so one after another they both had to go! If we had not had Anne we would never have had Elizabeth I, who in my mind was the best Queen ever to reign. Anne did not consider herself towards the end, she accepted her fate, but it was her Elizabeth and the legitimacy of her daughter that concerned her. If the King said the marriage was legal then it was legal, if he said it was not legal then it was not, no matter what the public or even his councillors thought on the subject, he would have his own way and to disagree with him on these or any other matters was equal to signing your own death warrant! And no I do not think that Anne was a saint, she was just a normal woman who was framed with treason because Henry could not use the same reason again for her as he had used with Catherine, so it had to be death for Anne! And because of her flirting and magnetism that drew men to her, this was the ideal excuse the councillors were looking for, why not say she’s guilty of adultery? Everyone will believe that of her, she has spent time on her own alone in her apartments with her brother Lord Rochford, we’ll say she had intercourse with him too, and people will be disgusted with this idea! And so sealed the fate of Anne Boleyn and her brother, musician, poet etc..etc…all innocent of the charges, all had to accept their fate it must have sent them insane the night before their execution, some had wives and children, they were all pawns in Henry’s big chess game of life! If only he could have known his greatest heir to succeed to the throne was indeed his daughter between Anne and himself!
Its understandable to try to see the whole situation as if “we” were in Catherine’s shoes and seeing Anne encroaching on our husband. If we do that, then clearly Anne was in the wrong.
The problem is, we are then using a modern viewpoint to view a situation that happened in the past. But, even if we try to view it from a Tudor viewpoint, the whole sorry situation which was extremely unusual even then.
A King and his Queen aren’t quite the same as Joe Bloggs and his wife. Its a whole different situation with very different rules.
Anne and Catherine were both victims in very different ways. Both were “stuck between a rock and a hard place”. Catherine had relative protection from her own royal status as a Princess of Spain, Anne had no such protection except her wits and intelligence.
If we had been in Anne’s position, what would any of us have done, taking very much into account the societal expectations of a woman of her status then.
Perhaps she could have gone into a nunnery, but I don’t think Henry would have let her do so.
Her only other choice, perhaps was suicide – but again, we have to think about the context of the times. Suicide was equal to murder – she would have been buried in unconsecrated ground, her soul left to torment. Her family would have been shamed by her disgrace. Its not something one could easily contemplate in those days.
Poor Anne – all she really wanted was to be married to Harry Percy. She was denied all that because a King had decided he wanted her.
Anne was at the mercy of a King whose word was law. She tried to let him know she wasn’t interested – he took no notice at all.
Anne was forced down the only road left to her. It afforded her a little dignity at least and a family in Elizabeth.
Julie B., it does seem odd- what was it about Anne in particular? I can only think (as others have speculated) that her very refusal and elusiveness must have fanned the flames. Henry was used to getting his way in everything and then, here comes this fiery, exotic woman who stubbornly refuses to give in to him…a maddening challenge he just had to overcome. Of course, he was surely attracted to her wit, charm, elegance and grace but I think the thrill of the chase also had alot to do with it.
I agree with the commentators who say she was basically backed into a corner, but, on the other hand, I don’t think we can absolve her completely from blame. Whatever her feelings at the beginning of her relationship with Henry, she certainly was not sorry or regretful (when the moment finally came) about marrying the King, becoming Queen, displacing Catherine and Mary, etc. So I can understand why supporters of the latter would view her as the King’s accomplice in crime (sorry, I know that sounds harsh!)
Great discussion, everybody, thanks!
I share Aimee’s opinion. Anne was the “other”, but with the time Catherine became the “other”. She was totally replaced by Anne. I imagine how she felt after more than twenty years of marriage. It wan’t only that she was loosing her position as Queen and her husband, her daughter was about to become a bastard.
But Anne did not have many options, and saying “no” to Henry was not a good option (trully I think it could be the worst for her). In my opinion, Henry was the one that started it. He always did everything for getting everything he wanted, and then tired of it immediately.
I see most of Henry’s wives as victims, but for me Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn were the ones who suffered the most because of Henry. I believe they were probably the only ones that loved him.
Although I am a devoted Anne fan I totally take on board Aimee’s points but on the basis of the context of the time and with the caveat that she was a human being and moreover a woman in a man’s world. She was no weak pawn but she was in a difficult position and I truly believe that she wasnot the personally manipulative character that history has portrays her as. The Helen Bonham Carter portrayal in ITV Henry VIII I think best shows how Anne resisted Henry and what he offered for far longer that usually accepted. I think she would have been far more content being the wife of Percy, and circumstances and a tyrant’s will scuppered this. I feel for Catherine and understand why people of the time vilified Anne for displacing her, but unlike contemporaries we have the value of hindsight to see Anne’s fate and we have the luxury of fixing the blame from a distance of time at the true villain, Henry.
It is important to remember that history is written by the victors and therefore Anne’s reputation stood no chance of being anything less than black.I am with Ives in thinking that Anne’s unpopularity was not as universally bad as most have said, and it is conveniently forgotten the immense work Anne did for charity, education and the promotion of Christian values. If we take the ‘what if’ scenario a stage further and imagine if Jane Seymour had failed to provide a son, would her fate and reputation have fared the same? The only reason she is remembered well is hit the jackpot producing Edward, and Weir suggests that more than Anne, she was fully in control of her ambition to be queen and was as ruthless and cunning as her brothers and was also not the great love match as history tells and was in fact plain and dumpy. She was the right girl placed in the right time. If she had fallen in the same way as Anne would Anne’s reputation have been seen more sympathetically?
As a footnote to my comments, can I point all Anne fans to a fascinating book i came upon by chance written in the 1950s by an Irish vicar which tells of the psychic experiences he had with Anne Boleyn and the other players of the time. I was sceptical of it at first but having finished it totally believe what I read and it gave me a brilliant insight into the unknown questions and was a spiritual experience and allayed my feelings of frustration and sadness of Anne’s story. it is called ‘The Return of Anne Boleyn – A Tudor Story’ by WS Pakenham-Walsh please read you won’t be disappointed!!
I’m loving this debate! Lexy-your theory about Anne’s intentions makes so much sense and I never heard it put that way before-that she wanted Henry to marry her to another man. And Merce, I totally agree-Catherine and Anne were probably the only two wives who loved him. They were definitely his most important wives (sorry Catherine Parr!) think they probably got along great with each other until Henry set his sights on Anne.
Like Merce said, I too think that all of Henry’s wives were in some way, shape or form a victim, with Anne and Katherine Howard being the ultimate victims. By all accounts I have read, Katherine Howard was guilty of the crimes she was accused of, but she did not deserve to die. Anyway, getting back to the debate. Anne was certainly not entirely innocent. She was clearly the other woman, in the eyes of England, Katherine of Aragon and certainly Mary I. Although I will always admire Anne for her courage and her outspokenness, in this case I just feel like Anne was definitely the other woman. I do admire her for holding him at bay for a long time, but ultimately she did give in to his advances. Looking at it from Katherine’s point of view, it would have been very painful to be cast aside and I would probably have reacted the same way to Anne that she did. I do think that Henry does not get his share of the blame for the triangle either. It seems like all of the animosity was towards Anne, which was not fair! Anyway, these are just a few of my rambling thoughts.
I definitely think it was Anne’s elusiveness that made Henry pursue her so avidly and wait for her for so many years. Had she given in and slept with him immediately, she actually might have avoided much tragedy. But then, Elizabeth I wouldn’t have been queen and the break from Catholicism might not have happened in England. One of us needs to write an alternative history piece on this situation.
But I have no doubt that had it not been Anne, Henry would still have wanted out of his marriage with Katherine–he was schizoid, frivolous, and flighty, so it would have been another if not our Anne.
When King Henry VIII had been married to Catherine of Aragon and he cought the eye of the beautiful Anne Boleyn in 1526 rumours must have rife at court as to what was going on.Catherine of Aragon probably thought ah he has taken another mistress again but little did she know that her husband the king had more intimate and serious feelings about Anne.Anne had gotten to know the king through serving as a lady in waiting to Queen Catherine of Aragon.She had probably not had been in the queens service long before his attentions turned towards her.I can imagine when Catherine had found out that things were more serious between her husband and Anne she must have been lost for words and it must have created friction between husband and wife,she must have felt jealous.In 1531 the catholic queen has exclaimed about the lady Anne that she was the scandal in the whole of chritendom. A few catholic enemies of Anne threw slanderous comments at her when they new things had become more serious between Anne and the King.If she had succumbed to his advances from the beggining Henry probably would have remained with Catherine and as a result thus the church of England would have never of been created.Catherine was not willing to lose him to her ans she had put up a long hard fight to stay married to Henry and remain his queen.But when you look at things he had to give Catherine up whether he had wanted to or not if he truly wanted a son and heir for his throne.Henry had fought long and hard to trying to get his divorce from Catherine just so he could marry the woman of his dreams.There is no doubt that Anne had some kind of unique hold over Henry which spanned over a decade.I feel that Anne was being slandered because she was a lutheran lady who had stolen Henrys heart and the people of the time could see this and thus there was jealousy amid the air.I see that none of his mistresses were given such slanderous names.Anne was not any of the words that was put upon her by other people.Infact Anne was the total opposite it was her sister Mary who was the harlot.Mary had been the Kings mistress at one time aswell as the king of france’s mistress and the french king made a statement saying that Mary was a great whore the most infamous of them all.So it seems to me like certain people were reffering to Anne as the whore too when really they meant her sister.perhaps because of Mary Boleyn’s ways they looked upon Anne as being the same “Like sister”Like Sister”When in reality she was the totall opposite of her sister.she did not want to succumb to the king of Englands advances until he promised her marriage and a crownment.Also she would have wanted him to be free of Catherine first before she became too involved.I think Anne had the right approach and dealt with things in the right way.I feel that Anne was unique in her own way and had something different about her she was deffinately different from all his other wives and mistresses.I suppose before she came along no woman had ever rejected the king or ever dared to as she did.One would have wondered if his second choice in marriage had been a catholic lady what would have happened then? Catherine at the end of it all only suffered mildly in comparison to what por Anne had to go through.Catherine only received a divorce.Whilst Anne was the one who had suffered majorly out of the two.Well with Catherine she had been given the name dowager and had to remove her status as Queen and thus was confined to certain houses with a few maids I know of one place she stayed in where the rooms were damp and made her feel ill.upon notifying the king he had her moved to a more relatively healthier place.She had been disallowed to see or have anything to do with her daughter Mary for which I feel she should have been given the right to do.I know and can understand why though.Whearas Anne had certain allegations brought up against her which were untrue and false and was thus condemmed to die on theese charges.I feel she was not guilty of the charges that were brought against her.I feel that if Anne had given Henry the son he so longed and desired for a lot could have been prevented.Anne would have deffinately lived to see the light of day again for many years to come.It was not her fault just like it was not Catherines fault that neither of them could give the king a male heir of which he so desperately wanted.Obviously there was a certain problem but whether it was down to his wives themselves remains to be answered.I have often felt that the problem layed with the king himself or if not both man and woman,husband and wife were to blame.I beleive it was genetic.It is a known fact that some women only give birth to boys and some only give birth to girls,whilst others give birth to a mixture of boys and girls. Anne Boleyn is one of my favourite characters in Tudor history as I have been into the tudor era for quite a long a while.Anne also was outspoken and intelligent and tempestuous aswell as having sex appeal.All theese things attributed to getting the attention of the king. plus the fact that he had probably liked the chase,the persuing of a woman he could not get.I feel though that his feelings had only changed towards her firstly when princess Elizabeth had been born because a prince had been so wantonly expected then as she went on to miscarry of her saviour a boy only made matters worse and then thirdly to give birth to a defective foetus which must have been the last straw between both Henry and Anne and thus as a result he started losing interest in her,taking a mistress and wanting to be rid of her.I think Henry must have given up all hope of conceiving a a boy with her.He probably thought that if he had tried again with her it would have just been the same thing again.By this time he must have lost all patience with her.I feel that Henry and Anne do make an intrigueing story.It does make me sad to think of what happened and how it had all gone tragically wrong for this woman.Taking into account that she had once been the love of the king’s life and for the whole relationship to just crumble and fall as it did has a really heartfely impact.Anne even on her own is intrigueing.In all she was an ambitious woman with an ambitious familly.Her familly used her as a pawn in the game of court intrigue.Thus by firstly throwing infront of the king and incouraging her to follow into something she did not really want and this was all because so her but most of all her familly would be kept and fed and clothed and had money and given all the powers and privelliges that went with having a daughter or relative being married to a king.
Thanks Melissa! I’ve come to imagine this theory while reading Brantôme: it was usual for kings to provide brilliant matches for the single ladies they were in love with, in order to sleep with her while the husband turned a blind eye to what his wife did. I think that Anne had saw what happened to Bessie Blount, to her sister and to other ladies at the French court where Francis I gave his maiden mistresses to his high ranking courtiers. In ” The Gallant Ladies”, by Brantôme, there is the anecdote of a woman saying to her “prince” that she couldn’t sleep with him until she was married to a great lord and her honor made intact. Maybe she even thought of Henry Percy planning this!
Thank you for that very interesting debate. It really got me thinking out of the box of ‘poor Anne how could everyone be so cruel to her!’
I see what you mean by looking at it from Catherine’s perspective and that of her supporters. No matter how much I like and admire Anne I always couldn’t help but feel sorry for Catherine. A princess born and bred, left to die in exile while a much more lowly born woman took her place as Queen. I personally saw no impediment in Catherine’s and Henry’s marriage, it could’ve been dealt with in other ways than an annulment.
Wolsey offered to Henry that any children he had with Anne would be legitamised, that path would’ve been much safer for Anne probably would have never ended up on the block, sure Henry would tire of her but if she delivered him a son and that son was considered ‘legitimate’ she would be in the king’s good graces and her and her family would be well off. I look at the example of Bessie Blount indeed she didn’t gain too much after giving Henry a son, but I believe the king loved Anne a lot more than her and considering Bessie never denied him it is likely that their relationship was purely sexual like it was in the case Madge Shelton and his other mistresses. Henry probably liked Bessie because she was considered pretty. Anne however, played Henry’s passions and made him in love with her a lot more than any of his pretty mistresses did.
Anyway, I believe that if Anne and Henry agreed to the Pope’s offer to legitimise their children. First not many would argue because the Pope’s word is law, second Anne would have gained as much favours as she would if she were queen (if she gave Henry a son) and third if any accusations of adultery poped up she would’ve have been executed because technically she wasn’t Queen. That reminds me of a question that I have been longing to ask: When Anne was sent to the tower, Cranmer proclaimed her and Henry’s marriage ‘null and void’ and Elizabeth a bastard. So if Anne was never Queen in the first place, how could’ve she been executed for adultery?
PS I also like looking at the situation from Anne’s perspective. Imagine if Anne was your friend and told you about the situation with Catherine and Henry. Wouldn’t you think Catherine stubborn and wouldn’t you be supporting Anne all the way?
Here’s the thing though, if Anne Boleyn is innocent, why is it that Jane Seymour is villified by Anne’s modern day supporters? I think that neither woman can be condemned fully. Yes, Jane followed the same game as Anne did, but Jane would not be able to really say no, just as Anne couldn’t say no.
I feel that if Anne is going to be exonerated, Jane must really be exonerated as well. It’s hypocritical to forgive one but blame the other. (Not that I am accusing you of doing that.)
I have been the other women,now or in tudor times you can,t help who you fall in love with. We could all be so “noble” and say Anne should have said no to Henry but maybe the thruth is very simple. Anne loved Henry and as they say love is a drug. Let,s also not forget if Henry was happy even Anne,s bewitching charms could not have forced him to move so ruthlessly towards Catherine.
I agree with Rachel,some people seem to villified Jane for doing the exact same thing that Anne did. Anne set the precedent,Jane just follow them. Personally, I think it’s in poor taste to accept a marriage proposal from a man who already married. As for not having a choice, well we all have choices. Anne could have made up her own rules. she could have agreed to Henry demands ,and made up her own. she could have made sure he chose a suitable husband for her,and give her a title (which he did) and land. It took 7 long years for Henry VIII to get his divorce ,and lot of things changes in 7 years. So if you think about it, if Anne hadn’t became pregnant when she did,would Henry VIII had broke with church to married her?
Wow! What wonderful comments! Let me respond to you:-
Nancy – I agree with you. I think Anne’s actions were based on survival and turning the situation to her advantage.
Cynthia – I agree, it’s not a simple debate and that’s what I love about it. There’s just no right answer because we have no way of getting into the heads and hearts of the people concerned. My problem with Karen Lindsey’s theory of sexual harassment is that it does make Anne into a victim and although I don’t feel that she had much choice in the matter I do believe that she wanted to be married to Henry and that she wanted to be Queen. I don’t believe that Henry was the monster that The Other Boleyn Girl movie makes out, with him raping Anne, I see their relationship as consensual once Anne had realised the depth of Henry’s feelings.
Julie – Yes, Anne wasn’t a willing participant in the beginning, she had her life planned ut and it did not include being the King’s mistress! You pose an interesting question about why Henry was fixated on Anne and why he went out of his way to give her what she wanted. I think it was because 1) He had fallen in love and was besotted with her – we all know how that feels. Not just lust but love which makes you want to do anything to be with that person for ever. 2) Anne wouldn’t back down – I don’t think that Bessie Blount or Mary Boleyn ever demanded to be more than a King’s mistress. They accepted their place and got on with pleasing the King. Anne would not accept even the title of one and only mistress so Henry either had to give her up or do what she wanted.
Carla – I love what you say about Henry starting it! I think he has to take the ultimate responsibility for Catherine’s heartbreak, how May turned out and what happened to Anne. Anne wasn’t a saint but she didn’t deserve to be vilified and executed.
Lexy – Yes, Anne didn’t really have much in the way of career choices did she?! It is interesting what you say about Brantome’s writings about other monarchs and what was acceptable at the time. Although it is interesting to draw comparisions between the past and modern times, we can’t really make judgements on a time so different to our own.
Marie – I love your idea of Henry as a spoiled boy and I think Jonathan Rhys Meyers shows this really well in The Tudors – what he wants he gets, simple!
Janette – Yes, how can we compare the situation to a modern day situation really. Life was so different in Tudor times and, as you say, our neighbour is not married to the King of England! Alison Weir talks of how there were many victims in the coup – Anne, her brother, the other 4 men and their families, Henry and Elizabeth. Lots of people suffered as a result of what happened to Anne – so sad! I can’t imagine what it must be like to wait for such an awful death! It is sad too that Henry had no inkling of what Elizabeth would grow up to be. I know he had to strive for a male heir to protect the Tudor line but how ironic that it was Anne’s daughter who is still today seen as one of England’s greatest monarchs!
Elizabeth – I totally agree with you. I don’t think that Anne had any choice at all in the matter. She had to think of the consequences for her family and I think she chose to survive. I love what you say: “Anne was forced down the only road left to her. It afforded her a little dignity at least and a family in Elizabeth.” – I think Anne did fall in love with Henry and in him she found someone who matched her intelligence and I can imagine them having the most wonderful debates and rows and then ending up in bed! She also had Elizabeth, who she took great joy in. It is a tragedy that Anne never got to enjoy her daughter growing up and that Elizabeth was left without a mother.
Matterhorn – Yes, Anne was no angel and she certainly didn’t make things easy for herself with her rantings and ravings about Catherine and Mary!
Mercè – It is interesting what you say about all of the wives being victims and Catherine and Anne suffering the most because they loved Henry. I do feel very sorry for Anne of Cleves too – being in a foreign country, being rejected by a King and wondering if he was going to dispatch you by execution must have been so scary! poor girl! Catherine Howard was also a sad case – David Loades makes the point that in her naivety Catherine may have believed that Henry was as omnipotent and omniscient as God and that he knew her past “sins” so she did not have to tell him that she was not a virgin. How sad if that is true!
Catherine – I haven’t seen the Helena Bonham-Carter portrayal of Anne or Ray Winstone as Henry so I will have to get the DVD sometime. Your comment “It is important to remember that history is written by the victors and therefore Anne’s reputation stood no chance of being anything less than black.” is spot on and that is exactly why Anne is still thought of as a whore and adulteress today, so many centuries of having a bad name! I’m also an Ives girl, I don’t think that Anne was universally despised. That book you mention sounds really interesting, I’ve put it on my list!
Melissa – I love these kinds of debates too! So much fun!
Carrie – I feel so sorry for Catherine, she certainly didn’t deserve the treatment that Henry dished out to her and Mary. I’m sure that she and Mary would have had a far happier life if she had agree to go into a convent but why should she? She believed, and it was true, that she was Henry’s true wife and Queen and so why should she step down. She had made her vows in front of God and it was against everything she believed to stand aside for another woman plus she wanted to fight for her daughter’s rights.
Cynthia – Oooh an alternative history would be fun!
Tudorrose – Yes, Anne is an incredibly interesting character, whatever people think of her. I think she was “tarred with the same brush” as her sister and I think she was trying to be virtuous and live to her own moral standards. She did the best she could to refuse the advances of the King and keep her virginity, but in the end all she could do was to relent but on her terms. What an amazing woman to actually be able to do this, to have the courage to say “no”. To keep the most powerful man in England hanging like that! I’m sure that she never expected Henry to actually wait for her and to break with Rome for her, I think she thought that he would give up on her and find an easier target. She never set out to trap a married man or to seduce Henry.
Lina – I love trying to get into people’s head and trying to look at things from different perspectives. It’s so easy to just make judgements without looking at the situation, the time they lived in, the consequences, the feelings of all those involved etc. This situation was awful for everyone, even Henry. Henry had managed to convince himself that his marriage to Catherine was unlawful and he just couldn’t understand why she couldn’t see this too. So he set about making things right in God’s eyes by finding an new wife who would also give him an heir, something that was crucial for England’s future and Henry’s security. Although it appears really brutal to us today, I think that Henry honestly believed that he was doing the right thing.
Rachel – An interesting comment and you’re completely right. If we believe that Anne was innocent and that she had no other choice then why do we slate Jane? My feelings on the subject are that you’re right, we cannot vilify Jane for what happened, only the way she went about things. I think the difference between the two women was that Anne wasn’t playing a game and yet Jane was. Anne never set out to trap Henry and yet I think Jane did. I think Anne was honest about who she was and what she wanted and Jane wasn’t. Jane copied Anne’s example and combined it with Catherine’s wifely example and became Henry’s perfect woman. Does that sound rather harsh? That’s just my own personal opinion and I do realise that, at the end of the day, Jane had no choices either, I just get fed up with Anne being painted a whore for what she did and Jane being portrayed as a saintly perfect wife who saved Henry!
Sharon – Thanks for your honesty and insights. Yes, love is definitely a drug and it makes us do things we wouldn’t normally do and act in ways that we never thought we could. I hope things worked out ok for you.
luvprue2 – Yes, it does seem in poor taste to accept a marriage proposal from a married man! I’m still not sure that Anne had choices or that she could make up her own rules. I think she did the best she could by refusing Henry but he just wouldn’t let go. I’m sure that she must have thought he’d give up, after all, we all know that Henry was a passionate man who liked to have his own way. I don’t think that Anne could ever have predicted what was going to happen. She was a woman in a time when women just didn’t have choices so I think it is amazing she did what she did.
An interesting question about Anne’s pregnancy! I love “what-ifs”!
Well, thanks for all the wonderful comments!
If Catherine and Henry were my neighbors, I would have tole him to f— off, especially if he had slept with my sister and may have had a child by her! This sounds like a Jerry Springer show. You really can’t compare your neighbors with royalty. Your neighbor can’t do what a king can do. Henry is the one to blame for causing so many women so much heartache. None of the women could live and tell him where to go!
It is exactly like a Jerry Springer show, lisannejane! Can you just picture Catherine going on and telling her story and then Jerry bringing out Anne and Henry? Then he’d bring out a few of Henry’s past mistresses, including Mary Boleyn, then he’d bring out Princess Mary and personalities like Henry Percy and Thomas Wyatt, and it would be great fun! Fights, cat-fights, shouting, swearing etc. I can picture it vividly.
I THOROUGHLY ENJOY ALL OF THESE COMMENTS
This story is better and more dramatic than any Mexican telenovela I ever watched while I was growing up…lol and that’s saying something!!
I am no expert, just a Tudor fan. I find this post very interesting and I must agree that Anne was mostly innocent. She didn’t have a choice. Saying ‘no’ to the King in those times? Who knows what tragedy that might have caused. I also believe that she was ‘used’ by her family. They encouraged it and pushed her into it, to gain power and wealth. I feel very sorry for Anne. On the other side, she was just a human being with flaws. She definitely did enjoy all the attention, excitement, being wanted by the most important man in England. Who would not?
Hi Charmain,
I’m glad that you enjoyed the post. Yes, I think she revelled in all of the attention and, as you say, this would have been perfectly natural. I think Henry was quite a catch, not only in the fact that he was King of England, but because he was attractive, intelligent and charming – just like Anne. H emust have made her feel very special.
While Anne has been painted a whore, I have seen comments toward Jane that painted her the same way. I’ve also seen people try to present Anne as playing a part to trap Henry. I do not think this is true of either woman. Jane’s actions even after Anne was gone seem to suggest she was really meek and submissive. It is likely that the people trying to trap the King were her brothers, but only after he was showing an interest in Jane.
To gain a better understanding of the situation, we must remember that Jane wasn’t at all the type of girl who would attract Henry’s physical attentions. He wasn’t scouting for a wife when he first became attracted to Jane, he was looking for sport. Much like Anne, he only got the idea after he was refused. And just as with Catherine, before he met Jane, it is likely Henry was already getting the idea to get rid of Anne. Henry seems to have the ideas first, but get the initiative when he has a replacement later. The same nearly happened to Katherine Parr when Lady Willoughby presented a viable option, but Katherine was able to save herself and Henry wasn’t nearly as dedicated to swapping Queens as he once was.
Before Jane, Henry had always been with beautiful and vivacious women. Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Mary Shelton. These women all stepped outside the usual roles of the submissive woman. Katherine of Aragon was lively and fun before she become overly religious. Anne…well…was Anne. Mary Shelton was a member of a poetry group involving Thomas Wyatt, it is likely that she was creative and exciting.
And then there is Jane. Jane was plainfaced, quiet, and dowdy. How on Earth did the King choose her? It is likely that he was persuaded in much the same way Louis XIV was with Madame de Maintenon (who was very similar to Jane.) Both women were calm and religious and offered an outlet for the King to vent his frustrations.
Henry probably had the chance to talk to her while visiting Anne’s rooms. It must have taken time for the interest to grow, probably starting before his affair with Mary Shelton. I can’t really see Henry, who was fanatic about beauty, merely being duped by a girl who was never once described as lovely. Just as he loved Anne, I have to believe he loved Jane.
Naturally, we can never know, but Jane doesn’t seem intelligent or crafty enough to have the skills necessary to ensnare the King. He may be a man, but he was not oversexed like Francois of France. He was in search of the perfect woman, as Kelly Hart would say. Henry was an intelligent man who was not easily fooled. Let’s give a bit of credit. He lived at court all of his life, he watched courtiers try to pull one over on each other. He would be able to spot similar games.
Henry most likely recognized the same game that Anne played from Jane. But what if it wasn’t a game, like Anne’s wasn’t? What if Jane really was intent on saving her modesty? It’s all she really had. She was a spinster, unattractive, from a family that didn’t have much to offer by way of dowry. Becoming a mistress would be a lucrative position. Henry had given Bessie a marriage shortly after his affair with her and Mary Shelton was engaged to Henry Norris after her affair with the King. It would probably the only chance Jane would have for a marriage.
Jane can easily be accused of playing a game, but it is worth considering that maybe she didn’t. I am not claiming she is a saint at all. I hate one sided theories about the wives’ personalities, such as Anne of Cleves being ugly, Katherine of Aragon as a saint, and Katherine Howard the whore. I believe each woman had flaws and virtues. But I think that these situations need more than one perspective. It isn’t one thought that goes into such moments, but multiple thoughts. Doubt, hope, certainty.
Even if Jane played the King, there was no way she could ever have known that he would ACTUALLY execute Anne. No Queen had really ever been executed before. Just like Anne, Jane could have believed Anne would become a nun. By the time it became clear that the King was intent on executing her, Jane would be powerless to stop him. She could not even stop him from executing the Pilgramage of Grace rebels. How on earth could she change his mind about Anne? And would anyone desire her to? Would it be safe to?
Jane, just as much as Anne, deserves some compassion. Both women died long before their time and were married to a difficult man.
Yes, Rachel, at this time women you married and women you slept with were not the same; but i have to correct you on one point, and that will lighten Jane’s life maybe. Madame de maintenon is often depicted as pious and plain, but in fact she was beautiful according to the time’s cannon. She was a former libertine ( one of her lovers, Villarceau, painted her in the nude), frien of the great courtesan Ninon de Lenclos and probably good in bed. She surrendered the King before their wedding, he confessed it in his Memories. In fact, the majority of French historians believe that she affected the pious apparence to seduce an aging King who feared for his soul. It didn’t prevent her from having lovers, according to letters she wrote to them. Lighten what Jane did,hmm?
I was not aware that Madame de Maintenon had lover’s during her marriage to the King? I know that she had some in her youth, though I believe that was before she came to court. I know that she later complained to her confessor of the King’s attentions and constant demand for sex even at the age of 70.
Thanks for the corrections
I recently discovered it reading a book about the love stories related to Versailles; in one chapter the author reproduces a letter that she wrote to one of her male servants, while married to the king: she tells him that she loves him more than Louis XIV and can’t wait for having him in her bed. I admit that I was surprised too!
Let’s also remember that Catherine was a liar. She lied to stay in England when Arthur died…and then she used her influence once replaced to try to de-throne Henry (TREASON)…(from A New Life of England’s Tragic Queen by Joanna Denny).
And Anne wrote in her surviving papers that she gave in to Henry because she viewed herself as Esther from the Bible. She believed that God wanted her to be Queen to aide the Reformaiton. So she started out not wanting Henry, and refusing him, but who can refuse Henry forever? He could be so perfectly charming when he wanted to be…and she was cornered by him, her family, and her own belief that God wanted her to aide those being persecuted in the Reformation.
Anne isn’t completely without blame in displacing Catherine-but if it hadn’t been her, it would have been another woman. The death of Henry’s son by Bessie Blount also proppelled her further-Henry was going to legitimize Henry Fitzroy, but he died at 17, so there went those hopes.