Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Why fascinated by tragic queens?
March 21, 2011
6:24 am
Avatar
ingibjorg
Iceland
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
Dear all,
I’m researching historical novels by women written on figures such as Anne Boleyn, Lady Jane Grey and Mary Queen of Scots – figures that I term as “tragic queens” since they all lost their heads on the scaffold. I’m currently looking into what constitutes reader fascination with these figures; i.e. what is it that draws you towards reading historical novels dealing with the lives of the above queens (and others of similar status)? Could you describe why you like reading this type of fiction?

I’d very much appreciate your help with this, any comments and feedback welcome. Thank you so much!

Ingibjörg Ágústsdóttir

March 21, 2011
7:10 am
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi, Ingibjorg…

 

I think part of what I find so fascinating about these women is that they were uncharacteristically strong women for their time period, and I think that what I find so tragic about them is that part of why they were persecuted, for lack of a better term, was because they weren't more demure and accepting of their circumstances.  Does anyone doubt that Anne Boleyn would have survived had she been more like Jane Seymour?  Or that Jane Grey would have avoided execution if she had renounced her faith and returned to the Catholic Church instead of somewhat antagonizing Mary I?  They were surprisingly modern women in a time when women were viewed as practically property, their views and opinions were not valued, and they were expected to remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.  Somehow, though, these women made men sit up and take notice.  Henry VIII certainly valued Anne's opinion at least for awhile, and Jane Grey was certainly spoken highly of by tutors and other highly educated men.  As a result, they were very polarizing and I think this typically contributed to their downfall.  It seems that they never really had a huge support base, and when it was clear that their stars were waning that many of their so-called supporters jumped ship.  The Duke of Norfolk, Anne's uncle, even found her guilty of treason and he was certainly involved in her rise.

I like reading this type of fiction because I'm interested in how the characters are portrayed.  Do their actions seem logical to their time period, their circumstances, and with recorded descripions of their behavior in real life?  Sometimes authors are able to make me think of or view a character differently than I had previously.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

March 21, 2011
7:38 am
Avatar
ingibjorg
Iceland
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you Meg,

Indeed I agree with you, these figures – Anne B and Jane Grey – were unconventional for women of their time. Jane Grey was unquestionably a scholar, something extraordinary for a woman of that time – and such a young one at that – and Anne had power (for a time), charm and wit which she used to advance herself and causes she believed in. Not that these women were perfect, far from it.

But Mary Queen of Scots – do you have any opinion on her? I think she is different from the other two in some respects, but similar in others – e.g. she held fast to her Catholicism while being quite flexible with her religious opponents in Scotland and not taking action against Protestantism no matter how John Knox raged against her and the “monstrous regiment of women”. What do you make of Mary's charms to the modern reader?

Ingibjörg Ágústsdóttir

March 21, 2011
7:54 pm
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don't know enough about Mary to be able to comment–sorry!!

But I'm willing to bet that someone around here does!!

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

March 23, 2011
2:26 pm
Avatar
ingibjorg
Iceland
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ok, don't worry Smile

Ingibjörg Ágústsdóttir

March 27, 2011
6:13 am
Avatar
bethany.x
England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 100
Member Since:
December 5, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I agree that it is that they were women out of their time. I love to see how they change with hardship and how they fight. Marie Antoinette's a great example too. I don't know why I love these women so much… I like to think of if the outcome would be different if men and women were equal…  My English teacher once commented, 'You seem to like women with unfortunate ends…' She got it quite right!

I think with Mary Queen of Scots it's Elizabeth… She's a great legend and then there is Mary- executed Queen. Not sure, but maybe.

I wish to confess to you and tell you my secret, which is that I am no angel. -Queen Elizabeth I

March 27, 2011
7:27 am
Avatar
Boleynfan
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 503
Member Since:
August 2, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Personally I have different reasons to like these women, but I think the allure for some people is the romanticism of it. Hard, toiling lives to do good, champion their faith, protect their children and their childrens' rights, etc., and then unjustly murdered. Just a thought…

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

March 27, 2011
2:07 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2333
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

wreckmasterjay said:

I originally found Anne fascinating because she was so innocent and that she shouldnt have been put through the show trail that she was. They didnt even give her a chance to hear her sides of the story as her co-accused were tried and found guilty before she could speak her mind. 

 

Lady Jane Grey was nothing more than a child stuck in an argument that she knew or cared nothing about. She certainly didnt have the enthiusiasm to rule as Queen or fight Mary I for her claim to the throne. This too is an incredible story. 


I'm going to have to disagree with you about Jane. I used to think that she was the child-victim of unscrupulous men and she was thrown aside when the tide changed in Mary's favour.

She may not have wanted to take the throne but she certainly appeared to be making  radical plans for her version of the English church. In fact Jane was writing anti-Catholic rants after she had been convicted. She appeared to have had her own ideas about how she was going to rule since she refused to name Guilford Dudley as king. I think she would have been a good queen had she been allowed to rule.

Again Jane was let down by the men who should have helped and cared for her. Her councillors abandoned her and her father-in-law was incapable of defeating Mary due to Mary's support amongst the people.Her father was the main reason why Jane was eventually executed due to him rebelling against Mary.

It's always bunnies.

April 6, 2011
8:29 am
Avatar
ingibjorg
Iceland
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you all for your interesting commentsSmile

Ingibjörg Ágústsdóttir

April 6, 2011
8:54 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2114
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ingibjorg said:

Thank you all for your interesting commentsSmile


On pg 16 and 17 of the thread, What are we all reading, you can find some opinions of Mary Queen of Scots.
You can also find comments about her @  http://www.elizabethfiles.com/…..ess/#p1045

I'm not sure I'd call myself a follower of tragic Queens.  I love them all. I don't consider them tragic.  I find it fascinating that in a time when women were so repressed, there were Queens who by the strength of their beliefs changed history. 

I read fiction because it gives personality to these women. They were not one dimensional figures.  They loved and they were loved. I am struck by how women who stood up for their beliefs back then, garnered so much hate.  They were all women trying to make something better of their lives and the lives of the people they loved. Not unlike women of today.

April 9, 2011
9:04 am
Avatar
La Belle Creole
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
March 9, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

For my part, it isn't so fascinating that these figures faced execution.  Their lives were certainly more remarkable than their deaths.

I don't consider Jane Grey so interesting.  She seemed to be more a pawn than anything else.   

April 9, 2011
9:31 am
Avatar
DuchessofBrittany
Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 846
Member Since:
June 7, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I find these women interesting because they were not the norm in society. Their lives were extrordinary where compared to historical and conventional gender norms. Whether by birth (Mary Stuart and to some extent Jane Grey), or a woman like Anne Boleyn who positioned herself in a man's world, they lived outside the normal realm of female gender rules. The ways their lives ended has given them certain fame in posterity, but the contribution of their lives should not be limited to how, when, or under what circumstances they died. Having said that, the posthumous fame of dying as a martyr and/or a anoited Queen lends itself to some fascination, especially for Anne Boleyn.

I am not a fan of Mary Stuart. I've noted my dislike of her a few times both on this forum and at the Elizabeth Files. I don't see the attraction that so many have of her either her contemporaries or now.

I've a new found respect for Lady Jane Grey after reading Eric Ives's book on her. I hope the long held assumptions of her life can continue to be explored and objected to. She was more than a pawn, but I shall leave the reader of Ives's book to determine to what extent.

Anne is a personal hero of mine. Her life and the events of her death are fascinating to me. She was the first anoited Queen to be executed. The way she lived her life continues to fascinate me. Antoinia Fraser called her “curiously modern” and I have to agree. There is something that I, a modern, 21st century feminist, likes about. Perhaps a little of my own determination and rebellious attitude?! I value her for her intelligence and courage, even in the face of her own death did she never waver.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

April 9, 2011
5:44 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2333
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

  I've

a new found respect for Lady Jane Grey after reading Eric Ives's book

on her. I hope the long held assumptions of her life can continue to be

explored and objected to. She was more than a pawn, but I shall leave

the reader of Ives's book to determine to what extent.

  Anne

is a personal hero of mine. Her life and the events of her death are

fascinating to me. She was the first anoited Queen to be executed. The

way she lived her life continues to fascinate me. Antoinia Fraser called

her “curiously modern” and I have to agree. There is something that I, a

modern, 21st century feminist, likes about. Perhaps a little of my own

determination and rebellious attitude?! I value her for her intelligence

and courage, even in the face of her own death did she never waver.


   


 


I've a new found

respect for Lady Jane Grey after reading Eric Ives's book on her. I

hope the long held assumptions of her life can continue to be explored

and objected to. She was more than a pawn, but I shall leave the reader

of Ives's book to determine to what extent.

 


Another book…sighs..this forum has been good for Amazon..
 

For

me at least with Jane, it was the loss of such a potential Protestant

scholar.As queen she would have had such a powerful position to lead ,

shame really that she was so opinonated and unprepared to

compromise…rather like Mary!

 

Anne…well Anne proto-feminist or not?? Her appeal transends the ages.

 

In

some respects, like Jesus, you can transpose your own interpretation of

her actions and still not plumb the depths of her impact on modern

life. Please note, I mean no disrespect to Jesus. His impact changed the

whole history of the world, effects we still feel today.

 

Anne

made it more acceptable for the ordinary person to read, learn and

understand the gospels.At the time, the papcy was riddled with

corruption, something Luther amongst others had railed against.

Being

able to read the Holy Word meant that even Joe the Plumber  was allowed

to question what the priest said. There was no ” This is the word of

God®” because people were allowed interpret in thier own ways .Rightly

or not!

 

Eta….the math question keeps messsing me around…

It's always bunnies.

April 10, 2011
6:05 am
Avatar
Kim
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 57
Member Since:
October 12, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I find Jane fascinating. For so long she was portrayed as nothing more than an innocent child, a victim of her parents schemes and the plotting of those around her. Thankfully she has undergone something of a makeover in recent years. I personally think she is anything but dull.

Jane had an intellect that was comparable, if not superior, to that of Elizabeth. While at first she appeared shocked that she was to be proclaimed queen, she quickly started signed her name “Jane the Quene”, and had a very clear idea of the direction that she wanted her reign to take. She denied Guildford Dudley the crown, something that I think shows just how strong her character was. Not only that, but when she was approached by a priest (I don't remember his name, I'm sorry) sent by Mary to try and convert her to Catholicism she engaged him in debate so competently that he couldn't help but feel respect and admiration for her.

Jane was, without a doubt, a Tudor.

To me personally, when it comes to women like Jane and Anne (Katherine of Aragon as well) I don't think that the interest is so much in 'tragic queens' as it is in women that were far ahead of their times. All three were extremely well educated, devout to their beliefs and ideals, and unafraid to stand up for themselves when push came to shove. I find those qualities, especially considering the period, extremely admirable, and that is where the fascination is for me.

April 10, 2011
6:06 am
Avatar
Kim
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 57
Member Since:
October 12, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
January 30, 2013
7:51 pm
Avatar
Alison
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
January 29, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I just love Tragical people, right from childhood when tragic characters always appealed to me, be it Giselle of the ballet or the Lady Shallot. There are so many Tragical Tudors and of course more besides the main ones we think of, such brave Margaret Pole whose head was hacked off her and she swore her innocence even at the Scaffold. ( ok she wasn’t a Queen but she had, in my view more of a claim to the throne than the Tudors)

January 31, 2013
10:10 pm
Avatar
KellyMarie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 93
Member Since:
January 18, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Is it tragic queens that we’re fascinated by or is it simply women who deviate from the norm for their time? This could include hte likes of Elizabeth I who didn’t meet a tragic end in the way of Anne Boleyn. If your going to write a historical novel, it has to be about an event or a person that stands out, a women at the centre of power during the Tudor times is a perfect example of this. Their tragic end is a biproduct of the type of life they led and therefore is not necessarily the thing that originally drew us to them in teh first place….am I making any sense?

Woohoo I'm normal...gotta go tell the cat!

February 1, 2013
6:08 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2114
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Makes sense to me. I never think of these historical women as tragic. For me they were all strong, vibrant women. Women who lived at a time when there was little to no chance of them leaving a footprint at all, and yet they did. I think more on their lives than I do on the way they died.

February 1, 2013
10:24 pm
Avatar
KellyMarie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 93
Member Since:
January 18, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yea exactly, sometimes when I think about it, there is a significant percentage of women who managed to gain power or make a different to history who have ended up dying tagically. Could it be almost inevitable? They are defying what was expected of them by their contempories and so paid the ultimate price.

Woohoo I'm normal...gotta go tell the cat!

February 2, 2013
5:01 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2333
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Cultural norms were different then…women’s sphere of influence was expected to be totally domestic. well, amongst the higher classes anyway.

That made the exceptional women who were endowed with power highly visible, then as now. Look at the vemon spewed out at Hillary Clinton and compare it to what was said about Anne Boleyn or Cleopatra IX. The words may have changed but the sentiment is still “get back to your knitting and let the men rule the world”.

It's always bunnies.

Forum Timezone: Europe/London
Most Users Ever Online: 214
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 1
Top Posters:
Anyanka: 2333
Boleyn: 2285
Sharon: 2114
Bella44: 933
DuchessofBrittany: 846
Mya Elise: 781
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1
Members: 425962
Moderators: 0
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 13
Topics: 1679
Posts: 22775
Newest Members:
selenasw60, amaliaqy60, RobertRam, FredTip, judithqp18, Brandontouts
Administrators: Claire: 958