Olga said

Oh Bo Gardiner was in the Tower wasn’t he? I thought Mary released him.

Gardiner fell into disfavour towards the end of Henry’s reign around the time of K.H downfall, and was imprisoned for all of Eddy’s reign. When Jane’s ill fated reign ended Cramner and Gardiner swapped places.
Totally agree about Mary’s supposed madness, I guess it was just easier to blame Spanish blood for her problems, than look a little closer to home..
I’m inclined to think that Mary may have suffered from Manic depression.
I also agree about the business with Joanna, lying naked etc on Philip’s tomb, this was probably some form of propaganda put around about the time that Mary had decided to marry Philip and maybe even try to prevent their marriage. I.e if she married him and they had a child that child would be mad. Bear in mind that Philip had a son from his marriage to Maria of Portugal, Don Carlos who was known to be minus a few marbles.
He was also one of the suitors that Mary had decided to promote as a possible husband for Elizabeth.
I think that was another reason to why people were so against Mary’s marriage to Philip because there was an awful lot of inbreeding between the Spanish royals.
KOA being proud of Mary’s reign? hmm maybe. I think she would be proud about her marrying Philip, but killing hundreds of people just because their religion was different I think she might have had trouble coming to terms with Mary’s reasons. KOA may have been Spanish by birth but she did endear herself to the English people and wouldn’t have intentionally killed people just because they didn’t believe as she did.

There was supposed madness on both sides of Mary’s parents, but for the most part I agree this supposed madness certainly came down from Henry’s line..Via Charles the Mad of France, Catherine of France’s Father. Henry 6th certainly had something mentally wrong. There was also reports of both Mary QOS and her son James 6th/1st of England having purple or plum coloured Urine, which as we know is a sign of Porthia which in turn affected George 3rd and was also believed to have affected Victoria. Possibly but I reserve judgement about that theory.

Anyanka said

Gardiner was one of the prime movers of heresay cases of Cramner and Katherine Parr but Henry saved both of them while playing a sick game all round. It wasn’t until he actively tried to oppose the Reformist party under Edward’s protecturate that he was imprisioned in the Tower.

Agree totally Anyanka, but I don’t think Gardiner held much clout with Henry after KH’s downfall and I’m not sure but I think he left court for a while until Henry’s temper had cooled.. But Henry kept Gardiner around, to perhaps steady himself. I can’t think how to explain that feeling.
I suppose it could be explained this way. Henry after he told the Pope to “Get Stuffed” still considered himself to be Catholic, Gardiner was perhaps the most senior at this time of his clerics, Henry still clung to some of the old forms of worship, but knew there was no going back to Rome, but hoped that perhaps Gardiner would be the lifeline for his soul. Cramner’s religious views were very different to the views that Henry had, so again Gardiner was perhaps the balancing point for the people too, a kind of Devil’s advocate. If you think about it the people were none too pleased when Henry tossed KOA aside and married Anne, but because he reformed the faith where he was head of the Church not the Pope and still in some ways followed the Catholic form of worship and kept a few Catholic clerics around the place, his people grumbled but tolerated it .
Of course when Henry died, Gardiner had outlived his usefulness as the balance between Henry and his people and Cramner could run loose with all the ideas he had about the reformed faith and because Eddy was young enough to malnipulate, Cramner could say what he liked. Cramner had pretty much a blank canvas in which to put forward his views etc and there was now no-one able to stop him. Plus the generation that Henry had ruled over were getting old or were dead, so the next generation would also be up for anything Cramner decided was religious.
That makes it sound like I really hate Cramner. Not at all I think he was highly intelligent and his views about religion made sence, but I also feel that like most people at that time got a little too big for his boots, and went a little too far sometimes.

If Mary had tried to steer the middle line as Henry and Elizabeth did concerning religious views then may be her reign would have been perhaps not exactly successful but perhaps some people would remember her with fond memories.
Another off the latch idea (Iron maidens, thumb screws and the Duke of Exeter’s daughter on standby here) Mary QOS reign went much the same way as Mary’s although there were differences Mary QOS turned the people’s love of her to hate. After Darnley’s murder and her marriage to Bothwell she was known as a Mermaid by many of the Scottish people. A Mermaid in Scotland is a Euphemisum for a wh*re.

Mary was just as Charles Laughton said in the film Young Bess “A Crazy Sheep”

Bill I agree Mary was the piggy in the middle with her parents squabbles, and she didn’t know if she was comming or going or even if she had been.. Henry was so determined to enforce his will on not just her but KOA it affected Mary in ways that no one could predict. Part of Mary’s problems come from her childhood and I think making her a maid to Elizabeth and then threatening her with execution if she didn’t submit to Henry’s will ultimately made her hate her English side, which is why when she came to the throne she was determined to promote the Spanish side of her nature. In her eyes Henry had screwed up everything that was English and made the whole idea of England abborant to her.
She knew through KOA how Isabella conquerored the Muslims in Spain and how KOA won the hearts and minds of the English people. People died for their love of KOA and of the Church of course. How many people did Henry put to death for the love of him and his church?
In Mary’s eyes those people who died in their support of KOA’s rights and those of the church were martyrs so there fore the Catholic religion was right and Spain was the as one with the Church. Hope that makes sence…
Some people could argue that Thomas More died for the love of Henry, but his scaffold speech says different.. “I die the King’s good servant, but God’s first.. Thomas was a Catholic through and through.
Henry’s idea of parenthood was that he was vaguely aware of some little people around the palace.

The whole concept of family didn’t really take off until around the end of the first world war, up until then children were more or less seen as commodities to be brought and sold kind of thing.
As for marriage, girls were expected to marry whom their parents decided was the most suitable, hence the reason they had these so called comming out balls. It was a chance for mums to view the breeding stock of what was on offer in the male marriage market.
It must have been terrible for a woman to be told who they could and couldn’t married too, and even worse still married to someone when their hearts lay elsewhere.. Thank whatever we grew up and away from that nonsence and have the freedom to choose who we wish to.
Mary chose to marry Philip I grant you, but I wonder who Henry would have chosen to marry her to if Henry and KOA had stayed married?
KOA’s preference was for a Spanish allinance, but then again that would have meant Mary leaving England. Would KOA want her only child to leave England. Henry at first was sold on the idea of a Spanish match, but only because he believed that KOA would produce a son etc..
Henry then toyed with the idea of a French match for Mary, but I think this was more down to getting his own back on the Emperor and was not to be taken seriously. Personally I do think that Henry would have settled on marrying Mary into Spain, as Spain was one of the big hitters and noises around the world at that time, and was one of the richest too. England by comparrison was equivilant to a boil on the bum, so by hitching his wagon to the Spanish horse he would perhaps get power and perhaps more status and of course wealth from Mary being married into Spain.