Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Tudor people
June 30, 2011
3:57 am
Avatar
Louise
Hampshire, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 611
Member Since:
December 5, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've been thinking about the actions of Tudor Personalities and what that says about the people they were. I'm interested in what people think about the personalities of Tudor people in general. Were they so very different to us or were they just reacting to the environment they were in?

I know there are people today who crave fame and/or fortune and some who would sell their own grandmother's for a shot of glory. But it seems that the Tudors, or at least those who were involved with Henry and his court, were almost universally like that. Was it a general trait of people back then that they were less sentimental than us or was it just that the people written about in our history books were those directly involved with Henry, and were just survivors in a world made brutal by the man on the throne.

I was thinking in particular about Thomas Boleyn, but he isn't unique. I don't accept Thomas was the man depicted in fiction or that he pimped his daughter's to the King. He spent a fortune on their educations and there is no evidence to suggest he forced either Mary or Anne into relationships with Henry. In any event Thomas was one of Henry's leading advisers and diplomats long before Mary caught Henry's eye, so he didn't need his daughter's to advance his career. I have no doubt Thomas adored Anne and George. They were children to be proud of with their charisma and intelligence. Extant sources show that Thomas paid off Anne's debts for years, and his accounts show he was still spending money on George when George was in his early twenties. Yet when Anne and George fell , he didn't lift a finger to help them, and even sat on the jury of the four commoners, thereby finding his own daughter guilty of adultery.

I accept there was realistically nothing Thomas could have done to save them and I accept his actions meant he managed to save himself, which I believe Anne and George would have approved of. Thomas worked his way back towards royal favour following his children's deaths, thereby putting loyalty to his King above loyalty to his children. We are far harder on Thomas than either Anne or George would have been. But that's my point! Surely the fact that such behaviour was acceptable makes them different to us.

Does being human comes down to your concept of humanity? There are human beings who kill thousands of people in acts of terrorism. They are still human but their concept of humanity is so far removed from mine that I find it difficult to think of them as human in the same way as I am.

The Tudors thought it was an appropriate form of punishment for women to be burnt alive and for men to be castrated, disemboweled and ripped apart. I know there are people today who do the most heinous things, but the difference is that civilised societies do not think it acceptable.

So it goes back to my original question. Were Tudor people fundamentally different to us in that they were less sentimental and far more driven by ambition and self-preservation than by family loyalty? Was their very concept of humanity different to ours? If so, then how can we really judge them?

Alternatively, am I reading far too much into this and really should get out more?    

June 30, 2011
4:07 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2333
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Given that things like bull and bear baiting were popular pastimes in those times taking the family to an execution was just part of the social life of the times.

It's always bunnies.

June 30, 2011
5:58 pm
Avatar
MegC
Georgia, US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 426
Member Since:
October 31, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think we also have to remember that death, in general, was accepted as a normal part of life because people saw it so often.  We are much less accustomed to death because we have antibiotics and well-trained doctors and hospitals and whatnot, but since those things didn't exist I think that people, while they mourned the dead, felt differently about it than we do.  And I think that's one of the reasons why the Church was so important.  So many people died from strange plagues and accidents and childbirth, that I think people needed the comfort of believing in an afterlife.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

July 4, 2011
5:31 am
Avatar
Louise
Hampshire, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 611
Member Since:
December 5, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've just read back over my post. What a pile of pretentious, irrelevent c**p. Sorry everyone!

July 4, 2011
5:44 am
Avatar
Neil Kemp
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 447
Member Since:
April 11, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Louise, I shouldn't worry, we've all been there at some time, what made perfect sense one day, fills you with horror the next. I have to say that I didn't think it was so terrible anyway, you asked an honest question and got feedback on it from other forum members. That's what this site is about, so please don't apologise, I thought the question posed in your topic was fair enough (I also cringe when I read back over some of my comments, so join the club!Smile).

July 4, 2011
5:48 am
Avatar
Bill1978
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 476
Member Since:
April 9, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

While I don't condone corporal punishment or could imagine myself watching someone die in front of me, in some of the ways they died in the Middle Ages I kinda understand why the public watched.

Firstly, it was a form of entertainment. Sure we may scoff now with out access to movies, TV, computer games and whatnot. But consider this, how many people will sit down in a cinema or at home and watch some disturbing horror movie. Sure it's acting, but it's not something I can stomach. Those Saw movies are disturbing just form reading the plot on Wikipedia, I can only imagine how gross it is on screen. So while we may not get the opportunity to watch these disgusting brutal deaths in real life, we are still viewing them as an art from.

Secondly, I think children were taken to the deaths as a way for parents to teach their children lessons. If you steal, your hand will be chopped off like Mr Smith's was last week. You want to behave a particular way you will have your head chopped off like The Queen did the other day. I could only imagine the deterrent it must have been to misbehave.

July 4, 2011
3:47 pm
Avatar
Bella44
New Zealand
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 933
Member Since:
January 9, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Louise, don't apologize for raising a really fascinating question!  If you think you need to get out more, then I definitely do, hee hee!  

I think we have far more in common with Tudor people than we would like to admit.  Family loyalty was paramount in the 16th century and men like Thomas Boleyn were just a few examples.  When they were busy making deals and alliances they did so for the advancement of their whole families, not so very different form parents today working their butts off and to give their children the best education and opportunities with “the right people” that they can.  Social networking is not a new thing – now it's just on a far more global scale!  It's not what you know, it's who you know – as true back then as it is now. And of course you always hear stories of parents pushing their kids to the limit to excel in a whole raft of industries, whether that's getting top grades in school/college or putting their kids in beauty pageants at a horrificly young age, the concept of the pushy parent is not a new one either.

As for the more unsavoury aspects of 16th century life, I think Bill makes a rather good point.  Executions and what have you could be seen as a form of entertainment, but they also served a moral purpose too.  We human beings can be rather puritanical when it comes down to it – we love nothing better than to watch someone getting their just desserts, especially if that person is a celebrity or has transgressed against societies norms in some way.  We may not have death sentences and public executions anymore but we have court TV and trial by media, which can destroy lives and careers in its own way.  And can be seen, I suppose, as a sort of morality lesson.  

And after all, who doesn't love a good scandal?!  Wink   

July 4, 2011
4:25 pm
Avatar
DuchessofBrittany
Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 846
Member Since:
June 7, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Lousie, you raised some interesting points, and don't apologize for that. I don't feel there is anything pretentious or irrelevant about these topics. In fact, as a student of anthropology, these questions are right up my alley!

We are more alike people in the Tudor era than we might think. Human nature has not changed; cultures have, and that can dictate how we react to events.

For instance, public executions were an accepted part of the Tudor judical system. There is a lesson about morals here (as Bill notes) and a mechanism to show what happens if someone disobeys the monarch's law. Executions were committed in many western nations into the 20th century. Albeit different, they were an accepted form of punishment for certain crimes. This can apply to the US today, where many states still allow executions. The way in which they are conducted differs from the 16th century, but they are still (in many places) an accepted part of the judical system.

Some of the differences, though, are related to government and religion. In the west (and I'm generalizing here), we no longer have an absolute monarch. Governments are respresentative and elected by the people. However, our systems of law and order are informed by the Anglo-Saxons, so there is some form of historical continuity.

Religion in the Tudor era was powerful and political. In many societies, the church is separated from the state. The Tudors saw the world through a different lens than we do, but that does not mean we cannot understand their conception of the world.

Theorist Bruno Latour developed a concept I love. The idea that ancient and modern are not separate entities, disernable by the passing of time. Rather he argued, the present is informed by the past and very much alive today. I must agree with him. After I interviewed lobster fishermen for my M.A thesis, I found their concept of time different than mine. They still feel the past alive in their concerns and conflicts with the Canadian government and the fisheries department.

The Tudors could fit into this model. They may be gone, but the repercussions of their conflicts are still prevalent today, and inform our cultural understandings of the world. Henrician England is still alive today. Our behaviours and feelings about things may have changed, but we are not so far removed from the past.

Is this too maudlin? Perhaps, but I felt the need to write something to this interesting topic.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

July 6, 2011
6:22 am
Avatar
Nutmeg
Hemsbach, Germany
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 25
Member Since:
May 20, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I agree with you, Duchess.

I think history and the people, cultures and values that were before our time are never truly and utterly gone. Times might have changed them, but they are still there somehow.

They still live in us. And I think this is great. History and our ancestors made us what we are today.

I think we today are not different from the people of the Tudor era. People wish for love, comfort, something to eat, a roof to live under and happiness. Back then and nowadays.

January 31, 2013
7:43 pm
Avatar
Alison
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
January 29, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sadly Humans tend to follow the crowd and if you imagine for example a terrorist was caught and the hatred people feel towards them, imagine a frenzy being whipped up amongst a crowd and angry people, like at a foot ball crowd they would have got a kick out of watching a person torn to bits I think. Look at blood sports and less “civilised” countries for instance, men especially high on testosterone and drink as they torment a bull, fox or dog to death, men in the Middle east high on testosterone and religious fervour as they watch a person stoned to death maybe for just having sex. Human kind will never change and my view is that there are a small minority of compassionate people who will not follow the crowd no matter what the majority too, there are only a small amount of humans are really evil, the majority fit in between and tend to be a bit ” sheep like” and do what everyone else is doing and follow along, so it’s easy to see why until very recently people went to public executions, Human kind will always be the same at heart, remove Western morals and human rights and what we see as the norm and it’s easy to see how deprave humans can become. Now a days we accept gay people, divorce and sex before marriage as the norm, go back less than a hundred years ago these were unacceptable, i think of Tudor England as being a bit like Iraq maybe or Afghanistan where women were meant to know their place, life was brutish and short, men were hypocrites and they were less squeemish, even today our meat is packaged for us but go to a third world country one must kill it themselves or the beast is slaughtered in the streets, like back then, so blood, entrails and screams of agony will have less impact I imagine.

Forum Timezone: Europe/London
Most Users Ever Online: 214
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 1
Top Posters:
Anyanka: 2333
Boleyn: 2285
Sharon: 2114
Bella44: 933
DuchessofBrittany: 846
Mya Elise: 781
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1
Members: 425958
Moderators: 0
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 13
Topics: 1679
Posts: 22775
Newest Members:
judithqp18, Brandontouts, richardvy4, frankiegu11, franklk2, bradyj4
Administrators: Claire: 958