Right folks This is a very long post, so please give it a go. Just make sure you have plenty of Aspirin on standby. I warn you there are a few of my off the latch ideas in it so please also keep an open mind.

As both he and his father were both called Thomas, I’ll refer to the former as Thomas and the latter as Tom to save confusion.

As we all know the Duke’s of Norfolk were staunch Yorkists, and Thomas who was just the Earl of Surrey, and his father John Howard 1st Duke of Norfolk were at the battle of Bosworth. John Howard was slain in battle.
Thomas who was Earl of Surrey was injured and was attainted in the first Parliament of the new King, Henry VII, stripped of his lands, committed to the Tower of London, where he spent the next three years.

Thomas could have tried to escape during the rebellion led by the Earl of Lincoln in 1487, but chose not to, therefore perhaps convincing Henry 7th that he would be and was loyal to both him and his crown,.
In May of 1489 Henry restored the title of the Earl of Surrey to him but still withheld most of his lands from him, and sent him up to Yorkshire to quell a rebellion which had broken out up there. Thomas stayed up there until 1499 as the King’s lieutenant, when he was recalled to court, and accompanied the King on a state visit to France in 1500.
In 1501 he was again appointed a member of the Council, and on 16 June of that year was made Lord High Treasurer. Surrey, Bishop Richard Foxe, the Lord Privy Seal, and Archbishop William Warham, the Lord Chancellor, became the King’s ‘executive triumvirate. He was entrusted with a number of diplomatic missions. In 1501 he was involved in the negotiations for Catherine of Aragon’s marriage to Arthur, Prince of Wales, and in 1503 conducted Margaret Tudor to Scotland for her wedding to King James IV
In 1509 when Henry 7th died he challenged Thomas Wolsey for the post of the new King’s first minster, which of course he didn’t get, but he did play a prominent role in the coronation of Henry 8th. Surrey expected to lead the 1513 expedition to France, but was left behind when the King departed for Calais on 30 June 1513. Shortly thereafter James IV launched an invasion, and Surrey, with the aid of other noblemen and his sons Tom and Edmund, crushed James’s much larger force near Flodden on 9 September 1513. The Scots may have lost as many as 10,000 men, and King James was killed. The victory at Flodden brought Surrey great popular renowned and royal rewards. On 1 February 1514 he was created Duke of Norfolk, and his son Tom was made Earl of Surrey. Both were granted lands and annuities, and the Howard arms were augmented in honour of Flodden with an escutcheon bearing the lion of Scotland pierced through the mouth with an arrow.
In the final decade of his life, Norfolk continued his career as a courtier, diplomat and soldier. In 1514 he joined Wolsey and Foxe in negotiating the marriage of Mary Tudor to King Louis XII of France, and escorted her to France for the wedding. On 1 May 1517 he led a private army of 1300 retainers into London to suppress the Evil May Day riots. In May 1521 he presided as Lord High Steward over the trial of Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham. According to Head, ‘he pronounced the sentence of death with tears streaming down his face
By the spring of 1522, Norfolk was almost 80 years of age and in failing health. He withdrew from court, resigned as Lord Treasurer in favour of his son in December of that year, and after attending the opening of Parliament in April 1523, retired to his ducal castle at Framlingham in Suffolk where he died on 21 May 1524. His funeral and burial on 22 June at Thetford Priory were said to have been ‘spectacular and enormously expensive, costing over £1300 and including a procession of 400 hooded men bearing torches and an elaborate bier surmounted with 100 wax effigies and 700 candles’, befitting the richest and most powerful peer in England.

Tom finally came into his own when his father died in May of 1524, although he had been one of Henry 8th close friends for a number of years. His first marriage in 1499 was to Anne of York (Queen Elizabeth’s sister) the marriage produced 4 children but none lived past childhood I believe this marriage to Anne was purely to cement Thomas’s loyalty to the crown, but I do think that Tom and Anne had a happy marriage. She died in 1510 and in 1513 he made a marriage with Elizabeth one of the daughters of the Duke of Buckingham. The marriage wasn’t happy and Tom often beat her, although they had a number of children. They eventually separated in 1530 and she went to live in Redbourn, whilst Tom, continued to live and Kenninghall with Bess Holland his mistress of many years standing.
One of his daughters Mary Howard was married to Henry Fitzroy Lard arse’s bastard son by Bessie Blount. Mary was also at one time considered to be put forward as a possible candidate for marriage with the King during the marriage jitters with Henry and K.P’s marriage.

Anyway in 1526 Anne B caught the fancy of Lard arse, Howard being ambitious ( of that there can be no doubt) saw a way of getting more than just what he had and I think he was perhaps responsible for inflaming Lard Arse’s determination to get rid of rivals such as Wolsey and a few others, I don’t know if agreed with Lard Arse’s decision to rid himself of KOA as well, but he certainly didn’t do anything to stop it and could at times be fairly unpleasant to KOA even though he had a deep seated respect for her too. I think the reason he was unpleasant to KOA was to prove to Lard Arse that he was ok with him divorcing KOA for Anne and perhaps also prove to Anne that it was ok too, but I don’t think he agreed with any of it. He was all over Anne like a rash and sort of became her mentor if you like encouraging her to play Lard Arse for all she was worth, If you think about it Tom perhaps knew Lard Arse better than many others as he’d practically grown up with him and knew just what tactics to use to flatter Lard Arse and therefore get more power for himself.
Anne however was very astute and perhaps saw him for what he was, and because of it Tom didn’t always get his own way and this made him bitter and resentful and unfortunately, when Tom started to get like that he became a very dangerous and vindictive cold hearted bastard. When Anne started to wobble he just completely dropped her, all the while Lard Arse still loved her he could use the situation for his own gain. Tom simply couldn’t care a rats about who he had to tread on to get what he wanted as long as he got it. Going out on a limb here. I would say his loyalty to the crown was as translucent as glass, the only loyalty he had was to himself. The Howard Name and the power it brought him. I would actually say he put on the show of being a Lancastrian but his heart and his soul were for York and always were. When Anne was murdered he simply said Anne ? Anne who? Never heard of her. He suffered when Anne was murdered but of course he managed to redeem himself through the pilmagage of Grace.. Another off the latch moment here folks (Gear and oil up your Racks and Iron Maidens) Is it possible that Tom was instrumental in stirring up the trouble to do with the pilgrimage of Grace riots?
After all he was in York at the time and that’s where it all kicked off? By stirring up the widespread panic then subduing it wouldn’t that make him Lard Arse’s blue eyed boy again? And make Lard Arse once again dependent on him etc.. Plus by subduing the panic it gave him good chance to get rid of a few more rivals.
In 1540 when Lard Arse married AOC Tom saw straight away that Lard Arse was not happy, but used it as a weapon against Cromwell for whom he had long hated, as Cromwell stood in his way, from having in affect the big purse of money he wanted. Poor K.H was just another pawn in his grand game of Chess, although I believe he had ideas for her long before the events of 1540. I’ve mentioned these thoughts in a prior posting, but for those newbies and ones who have not read them I’ll recap. We can’t be sure of just how old K.H was but I would put her at about 19 or 20 when she was murdered, that means that her birthdate would be around 1521/22. So that makes her around 12 or13 when her cousin was on the throne, old enough to come to court etc. No one could foresee the events of 1536, so for Tom and for everyone else Anne had many years in front of her for childbearing, and Anne wasn’t getting any younger either. So how best to keep Lard Arse happy whilst Anne was unable to have sex.. A Mistress of course, but to really make sure that Lard Arse was still in Tom’s power give Lard Arse a mistress of his own blood kin. This is where K.H comes in.
Yes I know Madge Shelton was for a while Lard Arse’s mistress, but she was only kin I believe by marriage not birth . If as I believe Tom wanted to rule as de facto King he had to have someone who was his blood by birth and that again is where K.H comes in.

Send K.H. to court and manipulate Lard Arse in taking K.H as his mistress, therefore he would he would have power on both sides, and of course when Anne had a son, there might be a slim chance of his ruling as de facto king on Lard Arse’s death. If Anne failed to produce a son (which as we know she failed to do) and K.H had a son he could perhaps manipulate Lard Arse into naming K.H’s son as his heir, and again a slim chance of ruling as de facto king.. After Anne’s murder he had to change his plans. However on mentioning de facto is it entirely possible that the de facto may not even come into at all? If Anne had produced a son, and Henry had died in his jousting accident, as a Catholic he might claim that Anne’s son was a bastard as she was married to Henry unlawfully as the Pope had declared on the 23 March 1534 that Lard Arse and KOA were indeed legally married. Marry Mary (KOA ‘s daughter) and take the throne himself. In short almost do the same thing as Richard 3rd had done himself..
But of course he now had another rival to deal with the Seymour’s, and at first they were just a minor irritation, then of course once Jane produced the long wanted son they became a major irritation.
So once again he had to rethink, his next move to get his power back by this time of course the debarkle of Lard Arse’s 4th Marriage had been exposed, although K.H was at court at that time but he really didn’t pay that much attention to her at first but once Lard Arse has made it know he wasn’t happy Tom started to push K.H forward. Purely for his own gains however not hers or anyone else’s.
If he hadn’t have been so crazed with the idea of absolute power he perhaps would have seen that K.H simply wasn’t up to the job. Yes she was pretty, but she really lacked good common sense, and hadn’t really got the polish and finesse her cousin had, so perhaps in some ways Tom thought that was perhaps all the better for him to manipulate her.
K.H had a good and loving heart, but she really was like a lemming going ever onwards doing silly things that led to her death. She made a lot of mistakes in her life, but then she was just a kid at the end of the day. Tom made a big fuss of her, and perhaps was quite fatherly towards her in some respects, but always in the back of his mind it was if I tell K.H to do this I will get that etc. By the time Tom figured out that he made a big mistake setting out on this next game of chess it was too late to try and turn the whole situation around back into his favor and ultimately he felt the claws of the lions scratch him.
After K.H’s execution Tom went back to Kenninghall, where he perhaps brooded on better times and perhaps said things that were better off not said, and it may that some of which was said got back to Lard Arse. To coin a phrase careless talk cost lives. But even so Tom was plotting in his mind new ways to worm his way back into Lard Arse’s good graces.
As luck would have James 5th of Scotland decided to go and have a stab at Uncle Lard Arse, which led to the Battle of Solway Moss. Tom being nearer to the Scottish Border was given the honour of going up there and giving James a good kicking, which thankfully he did. Solway Moss was not exactly a battle in the actual sense of word as only 7 Englishmen and 20 Scots men were killed, it was more of a hostage taking battle with about 1,200 Scotsman taken as Hostages. However James 5th defeat in this matter was enough for him to just give up and die, leaving his 6 day old daughter Mary as Queen.
I’m not sure but I believe Tom was responsible for taking these hostages down to London, hence once again he managed to worm his way back into court.
However Lard Arse wasn’t as friendly with him as he once was and basically got him out of the way as soon as possible, this took the form of sending him to France. In 1543 Lard Arse decided to have yet another pop at the French king, so In June 1543 Tom declared war on France in the King’s name and was appointed Lieutenant-General of the army. During the campaign of May–October 1544 Tom besieged Montreuil, while the King captured Boulogne before returning home. Complaining of lack of provisions and munitions, Norfolk eventually raised the siege of Montreuil, and realizing that Boulogne could not realistically be held by the English for long, left it garrisoned and withdrew to Calais, for which he was severely rebuked by the King.
Once again Tom tried to redeem himself to Lard Arse and also to adhere himself to the rising Seymour star. How better to do that than by marriage, so he made a proposal of marriage between his daughter Mary and Thomas Seymour. Mary however was cleverer than Tom gave her credit for and basically told her father to get stuffed.
The marriage plans were also in part scuppered by Surrey who at that time had usurped the Royal authority, by quartering his arms with the Royal house without permission, something which angered Lard Arse immensely and as a result both Surrey and Tom found themselves in the Tower on charges of Treason.

Between Being in the Tower must have been the ultimate humiliation for him, and perhaps also stamped on him that no matter what he said and did now would be able to get him back into power, the best he could hope for now was to make a good death. At his trial Bess Holland as did Tom’s wife Elizabeth and his daughter Mary testified against him which must have felt like a tonne of bricks crashing down on his head. Surrey lost his head but Lard Arse died the night before Tom’s sentence was due to be carried out, saving his life and perhaps gave him a small glimmer of hope that he might be able to worm his way back into power at court.
Of course we know he wasn’t released until Mary Tudor took the throne and gave him back all that he had lost, but by then it was far too late to regain what he once had within the court, Mary only released him to show the populous she intended to be merciful and because he was a fellow Catholic. To be honest by the time he was released he was past caring about all he wanted, he just wanted to die peacefully in his bed. He was friendless and all those he loved had betrayed him, and his eldest son was dead too. I rather think his time in the tower gave him a chance to reflect at all the wrong turns he made in his life, and because of what he wanted a lot of innocent people had died including his son. He died in 1554 a broken and bitter old man
Mary his daughter died in 1557 just 3 years after her father
Bess Holland married Henry Reppes in 1547 and died in childbirth in 1548..
On the whole Tom in my opinion was a real nasty sadistic bastard who had no thoughts or feelings for anyone or anything other than himself, who would stop at nothing to get what he wanted, and those who went against him or looked at him oddly were dead. I think he also had a deep seated loathing for Lard Arse. I kind of get the impression that if both Richard and Henry had killed each other at Bosworth his father might have been crowned as King and therefore he too would have become king in due time.
I think that the Duke of Norfolk at the time of Bosworth was the most premier of all the Dukes present on the battlefield at Bosworth on that day in August of 1485, and unlike all the other Dukes present Norfolk did at least have some diluted Royal blood in his vein