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Mary's feelings and thoughts.
April 10, 2012
1:23 pm
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Mya Elise
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I thought i’d make a topic about Mary Boleyn’s possible thoughts and feelings on Anne’s relationship with Henry, Mary’s former lover. How do you think Mary felt about her younger (I’ve concluded Mary was older) sister getting involved with a man she had been involved with. And the new relationship didn’t happen that long after Mary & Henry ended things. And then how do you think Mary felt about her sister’s downfall and death?

Sound off please…

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 10, 2012
2:22 pm
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Maggyann
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I still can’t settle in my mind that Mary ever was Henry’s mistress.
As far as Mary’s feelings about Anne and George I’d expect her to be heartbroken and that is whether or not there was ‘bad feeling’ between them all as some people believe.

Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60

April 10, 2012
3:44 pm
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Mya Elise
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Why don’t you believe Mary was Henry’s mistress..?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 10, 2012
4:15 pm
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DuchessofBrittany
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I am currenltly reading Weir’s book on Mary. While I have my issues with Weir, she does make a couple of interesting assertions about Mary’s relationship with Henry. She argues that Mary was Henry’s mistress, but it remained a discret affair. Weir also notes we do not really know the exact timeframe for their affair, as she was never as high profile as Elizabeth Blount.
Weir asks an interesting point: Since KOA never used Mary’s affair against Henry during the Great Matter (which would, by default make his attempts to marry Anne incensteous), Weir argues the affair was so low key few people knew about, and it was only later did rumors and informtion surface about it! I can see where Weir is coming from here, and it makes an interesting point to ponder.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

April 10, 2012
6:14 pm
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Anyanka
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Didn’t Henry need a dispensation to marry Anne due to his relationship with Mary??

It's always bunnies.

April 10, 2012
6:26 pm
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Bill1978
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And didn’t Henry once quip when probed about a possible affair with Mama Boleyn he said ‘Never with the mother’ which would imply he slept with both sisters. Although if it turns out that Mary was never Henry’s mistress then The Other Boleyn Girl can be truly classified as a piece of pulp fiction and people would not be led to believe everything in that book was true.

April 10, 2012
7:21 pm
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Mya Elise
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Well Mary’s relationship with Henry is also portrayed in ‘The Tudors’ not just ‘The other Boleyn girl’. Maybe Mary’s affair with him was discreet but there was definately some kind of romantic involvment, all the facts are there: Henry used his previous fling with Mary to get away from Anne, and he didn’t deny it when he was asked about having something with Elizabeth Boleyn, and it’s a big topic of interest these days.
The only thing I don’t really believe about this relationship is that Mary’s children were his, I don’t know why but I don’t think they were his children, I could be wrong though….

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 11, 2012
7:16 am
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Boleyn
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Mary Boleyn was the complete opposite to her sister. Whereas Mary was happy to have a little slice of the cake and then go onto the next course. Anne was I’ll have this cake and bloody well eat it all too.
I think Mary had some talents of her own, but I feel that she was a very poor imitation of her sister and hadn’t perhaps got the same ambitions.
Her affair with the French King certainly made her noticable in Henry’s eyes, but if Mary was having an affair with Charles Brandon or Thomas Cromwell it would bearly be noticed by anyone except by the court gossips perhaps.
However she must have had something about her for the King to keep her around for almost 2 years.
I think Mary was a sweet natured woman, but she felt rather left out of the circles that George and Anne flew in. Married to William Carey in 1520 shortly after her return from France, and shortly after Henry and her began their affair.
When William died she was rather lonely I think as Henry was no longer interested in her, and her Sister and Brother were buzy making their own destinys in court. William Stafford was perhaps her saviour, as he showed her that she didn’t need wealth and status to be happy, and I believe he did make her very happy, especially when Anne and George died. Did her father have much to do with her after she married William Stafford? I know that Anne and George were not happy with her marrying someone who was without wealth or status. But Anne did I think manage to get a stipend or 2 for her to help her with her finances. Mary was perhaps the luckiest of all the Boleyn children as she died peacefully in her bed with those around her who she loved most. I like to think that she’s in the great beyond still tagging along behind her Sister and Brother laughing along with all their madcap ideas. Or maybe chasing Henry around with broomstick and clonking him on the head saying “Take that, that and that fat boy I’ll teach you to kill my brother and sister you fat pig”

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 11, 2012
9:27 am
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Mya Elise
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I’m glad Mary wasn’t caught up in the mess of her sister’s downfall like George had been, despite how she acted in her younger years i’m actually happy that she managed to live out her life and find happiness with her children and husband. I agree with you, Boleyn, how Stafford probably showed Mary that you can be happy without all the wealth and nice gowns and pretty little baubles. I don’t know why she and her sister were never close like Anne and George were and I won’t pretend to know but it’s a shame. I think she was a good hearted person too just had some wild years and made some decisons that weren’t exactly…smart. She wasn’t the saint that Phillipa Gregory made her up to be but she wasn’t a bad person either.

LOL @Boleyn, I could see Mary chasing big’ole Henry around with a broom too.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 11, 2012
11:36 am
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Sharon
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Bill1978 said

And didn’t Henry once quip when probed about a possible affair with Mama Boleyn he said ‘Never with the mother’ which would imply he slept with both sisters. Although if it turns out that Mary was never Henry’s mistress then The Other Boleyn Girl can be truly classified as a piece of pulp fiction and people would not be led to believe everything in that book was true.

This conversation was between the king and George Throckmorton a Catholic in 1533. According to Weir, Thomas Cromwell added directly after the king, “Nor never with the sister either, and therefore put that out of your mind.”
Funny how things change.

April 11, 2012
1:28 pm
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Mya Elise
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Maybe Cromwell said that just to keep it away from that topic, maybe Anne didn’t like remembering it and having it brought it.
I don’t know though…

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 12, 2012
6:44 am
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Bill1978 said

And didn’t Henry once quip when probed about a possible affair with Mama Boleyn he said ‘Never with the mother’ which would imply he slept with both sisters. Although if it turns out that Mary was never Henry’s mistress then The Other Boleyn Girl can be truly classified as a piece of pulp fiction and people would not be led to believe everything in that book was true.

This conversation was between the king and George Throckmorton a Catholic in 1533. According to Weir, Thomas Cromwell added directly after the king, “Nor never with the sister either, and therefore put that out of your mind.”
Funny how things change.

However when old stinky breeches, was still confident in the Pope granting his divorce he asked the Pope for a dispensation to marry Anne because of his prior relationship with Mary. As he knew that if the Pope did grant his divorce any children Anne and he had could be deemed illegitimate because of his prior relationship with Mary, and bear in mind that Mary had had 2 children during her affair Henry and although not able to prove who fathered them it could be argued by some that her children came before Anne’s in line of succession..
I rather think it wouldn’t have made a lot of difference when all the big hue and cry calmed down as William Carey excepted them as his even if they weren’t, and of course as long as the statement of oh yes they are mine ok, was made in front of witnesses that was enough legally to disbar them from having anything to do with the succession. I will state though that Elizabeth was extremely fond of both Catherine Carey and her daughter Lettice and also of Henry Carey. They may of been her half brother and sister and cousin. or Cousins and second Cousin..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 14, 2012
4:08 am
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Olga
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I have always thought that Catherine was probably Henry’s daughter, but that’s mostly because of the eerie resemblance between Elizabeth and Lettice. Weir made a point in her book about Mary about a pension paid (I can’t remember off the top of my head where it was from) that was independent of any pension from the crown and that may have been Henry trying to look after an illegitimate child.
While I didn’t love Weir’s book about Mary she made some good points. I leaned towards her view that maybe Mary wasn’t such a willing participant in the affair. I personally don’t think Mary had the ambition to become Queen. And if she wasn’t relived to get rid of Henry at the time then I am quite sure she felt she had a lucky escape afterwards.
I’m actually quite fascinated with Mary. I wish we could find out more about her. I thought that letter that she wrote to Cromwell that still survives was an amazing insight into her character and her position at the time.

April 14, 2012
6:06 am
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Boleyn
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Olga said

I have always thought that Catherine was probably Henry’s daughter, but that’s mostly because of the eerie resemblance between Elizabeth and Lettice. Weir made a point in her book about Mary about a pension paid (I can’t remember off the top of my head where it was from) that was independent of any pension from the crown and that may have been Henry trying to look after an illegitimate child.
While I didn’t love Weir’s book about Mary she made some good points. I leaned towards her view that maybe Mary wasn’t such a willing participant in the affair. I personally don’t think Mary had the ambition to become Queen. And if she wasn’t relived to get rid of Henry at the time then I am quite sure she felt she had a lucky escape afterwards.
I’m actually quite fascinated with Mary. I wish we could find out more about her. I thought that letter that she wrote to Cromwell that still survives was an amazing insight into her character and her position at the time.

Olga.. Very good post. Henry Carey however did rather look old Stinky too. So it’s possible that that either one of them was or both of Mary’s children were Stinky’s. Either way Elizabeth must have had some affection for Mary to look after Lettice and Henry as she did. She was very fond of Lettice, perhaps because they were so alike in temprement as well as looks. Their freindship kind of makes me think that that should have been how Mary and Anne’s relationship was. It also seems a case of Deja vu that, Mary married William Stafford without Royal approval and was more or less sent into exile because of it. And Lettice did the same thing by marrying Robert Dudley without Royal Approval and ended up more or less in exile. Weird hey, well they also say that history always repeats somewhere along the line..
Mary is an enigma as we know so very little about her, perhaps that was how she would have liked it. In the first film of the Other Boleyn Girl (Eric Bana Played Stinky) right at the end Mary is seen to put flowers on the stone where the scafford was built. She says I was happy to be a nobody or something like that. I think perhaps she was too.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 15, 2012
6:36 pm
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Mya Elise
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I too wish we knew more about Mary, it sucks doesn’t it? Not knowing everything possible.
I’ve always kinda thought that maybe Catherine was William’s but Henry was Henry’s, because the the undeniable resemblence between Henry and Henry. I don’t know..though.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 16, 2012
5:15 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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Olga said

I have always thought that Catherine was probably Henry’s daughter, but that’s mostly because of the eerie resemblance between Elizabeth and Lettice. Weir made a point in her book about Mary about a pension paid (I can’t remember off the top of my head where it was from) that was independent of any pension from the crown and that may have been Henry trying to look after an illegitimate child.
While I didn’t love Weir’s book about Mary she made some good points. I leaned towards her view that maybe Mary wasn’t such a willing participant in the affair. I personally don’t think Mary had the ambition to become Queen. And if she wasn’t relived to get rid of Henry at the time then I am quite sure she felt she had a lucky escape afterwards.
I’m actually quite fascinated with Mary. I wish we could find out more about her. I thought that letter that she wrote to Cromwell that still survives was an amazing insight into her character and her position at the time.

I agree, Olga. I too did not love Weir’s book, but she did make some interesting point. She does effectively argue against Mary as the infamous wh*re. I actually like Mary a lot, and wish there was more documented evidence about her life.
I share Weir’s opinion that Catherine Carey was probably Henry’s. I am not so sure about Henry Carey.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

April 16, 2012
11:02 am
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Sharon
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Olga said

I have always thought that Catherine was probably Henry’s daughter, but that’s mostly because of the eerie resemblance between Elizabeth and Lettice. Weir made a point in her book about Mary about a pension paid (I can’t remember off the top of my head where it was from) that was independent of any pension from the crown and that may have been Henry trying to look after an illegitimate child.
While I didn’t love Weir’s book about Mary she made some good points. I leaned towards her view that maybe Mary wasn’t such a willing participant in the affair. I personally don’t think Mary had the ambition to become Queen. And if she wasn’t relived to get rid of Henry at the time then I am quite sure she felt she had a lucky escape afterwards.
I’m actually quite fascinated with Mary. I wish we could find out more about her. I thought that letter that she wrote to Cromwell that still survives was an amazing insight into her character and her position at the time.

I don’t think Mary was very willing to be with Henry either. In 1522 at a joust the day before the pageant of the assault on castle Vert, Henry wore an embroidered ‘wounded heart’ with the insignia, ‘She has wounded my Heart.’ This is supposed to be in reference to Mary. It seems to me that if this was for Mary, it was because she had turned him down at some point. So again, we have a woman trying to tell Henry to leave off, but the man always got what he wanted. I don’t think Mary had the ambition to be queen either, but I doubt the subject ever came up between her and Henry as it did with Anne. I think Mary would have been relieved to be rid of Henry, and would have cautioned her sister against him.
Even if it seems that Anne had more in common with her brother George, and was closer to him than she was to Mary, I think they were as close as sisters could be considering the different lives they led. Their lives seemed to go in different directions. Mary with her husband and children, and Anne with Henry.
Mary seems to be the type of person who would rather be at home in the country with her family rather than deal with all the court intrigue. I think she was happy with Stafford being as far away as she could get from Henry. I do think she was crushed by the death of her sister and brother, as well as the deaths of her parents. I’m so glad she had a loving relationship with Stafford when all that happened. She wasn’t alone.

April 16, 2012
7:48 pm
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Mya Elise
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I do still wonder what Mary felt about the way her sister’s life turned out…? Obviously there’d be the sense of sadness but what else?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 17, 2012
12:36 am
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Maggyann
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I expect on top of her deep sadness at losing her brother and sister Mary must have felt some sort of confusion about the charges, wonder at her father avoiding going down with them – he was right there in the middle of everything after all, fear because she was a Boleyn too with a family to care for – could she be next?, distress for her mother, all those sort of things – is that what you mean Mya Elise?

Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60

April 17, 2012
7:21 am
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Mya Elise
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Yeah, kinda. I mean although I don’t like TOBG, I still love the idea of telling the story through Mary’s eyes and getting an idea of how she felt about her sister getting into something that Mary herself has already experienced. And then how it felt to know your brother and sister are going to die.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

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