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Margaret Douglas
March 16, 2013
8:53 am
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chkylie
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(I’m really sorry if there is already an existing thread about her, I searched and could not find it!)

Margaret Douglas (1515-1578), Countess of Lennox, daughter of Margaret Tudor and niece of Henry VIII lived through the reigns of all of the Tudor monarchs but Henry VII and having been so close to both the English and Scottish thrones she was one of the most influential women of her time. I became very interested in her ever since I learned about her clandestine love affairs with Lord Thomas Howard, Anne Boleyn’s young uncle, and Charles Howard, Queen Catherine’s brother. She was also a talented poet in spite of her sex.

I decided to develop a story but found there was very limited information available about her. I could only find one biography of her, here: http://mellenpress.com/mellenp…..&pc=9 but its USA price is a bit much for me — $139.95. Anyway, the most information I got about her was from “Tudor Cousins: Rivals to the Throne by Ashdown. Margaret was a devout Catholic and while there is very limited evidence of what kind of personality she may have had, I read in Ashdown’s book that she sparred with Henry VIII over religion a bit before his death, leading her to be left out of succession. She had an affectionate marriage with the count of Lennox and is the mother of Lord Darnley who married Mary Queen of Scots. Her cousin Elizabeth I put her in the Tower several times.

Anyway a few of the questions I still have about her are:

1) What might her opinions of Anne Boleyn have been? She was in love with Anne’s uncle and yet being so close to Mary Tudor I doubt that she could have been so fond of Anne.
2) What was her relationship with her cousin Elizabeth I like? Again, due to her strong friendship with Mary I can’t imagine it being too kind. Also, Elizabeth ordered her imprisonment for the marriage plots she arranged for her son.
3) Was her mother’s marrying twice for love an influence on Margaret and her secret betrothal with Lord Thomas?
4) Where can surviving letters of her be found? I guess that is a pretty general question… would they be among the letters and papers of Henry VIII’s court here

Lastly,
5) What are your opinions/the general opinion of Margaret?

These are some of the portraits credited to her:
http://imgc.allpostersimages.c…..s-i-vi.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rR7C…..lennox.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/…..3506_z.jpg (possibly)
http://www.artistclon.com/Othe…..allery.jpg in later life
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/…..06efc4.jpg (can’t find full size)

Thank you!

--Kylie
queenaboleyn.blogspot.com (Tudor Blog)
kylie.floriental.org (Personal Blog)

"Let the grumble -- that's how it's going to be."

March 16, 2013
2:25 pm
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black_mamba
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Margaret is a very interesting character. (She is my 17th Great-Grandmother through King James VI)
If I remember correctly, her mother Margaret Tudor, was married three times. Her second marriage, to Margaret’s father, Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus was rocky at best, and she later divorced him to marry Henry Stewart, Lord Methven. Interesting enough, James V (her half brother) bore a long standing hatred to the Douglas clan (Angus kidnapped him and held him as a prisoner for three years, using James to exercise full power until 1528 when he was able to escape from Angus and take the reigns of government himself) which included the burning of Angus’s sister, Lady Janet Douglas, or Lady Glamis as a witch (very interesting ghost story that goes along with that story!)
Also, I’m not sure if your aware of this, but there is some conjecture, about whether or not Margaret had a son with Lord Thomas Howard, while she was imprisoned in the Tower. Now we know, while she was in the Tower she became ill, and she was moved to Syon Abbey. It is there in January 1537, they say she gave birth to a son, whom she named Robert.
Here’s something from ancestry.com:
“This theory on Matthew Howard’s ancestry was proposed by James E. Moss in Providence, Ye Lost Towne at Severn in Maryland.1 His theory was that Thomas HOWARD (son of Thomas HOWARD, Duke of Norfolk, and his second wife. Thomas also had a son Thomas by his first wife.) and Margaret DOUGLAS (granddaughter of King Henry VII, niece of King Henry VIII) had a son Robert born about Jan. 1537 that was secreted away to live with relatives. He based this on a pedigree from the College of Arms that lists a Robert HOWARD born ca. 1530 of Brockdish, Norfolk, and wife Philippa BUXTON. The pedigree listed 11 children for Robert, two of them being John HOWARD who married —– LOCK and had 8 children (not named) and Matthew HOWARD who married Margaret ARTHUR and had sons named Matthew and Samuel. In 1714 Matthew and Richard HOWARD of London, great-grandsons of Matthew HOWARD and Margaret ARTHUR, were granted arms that Moss stated were the basic arms of the Ducal HOWARDs, with the inclusion of a mullet (Star). He stated the mullet/star is the basic symbol of the Scottish clan DOUGLAS, and that he believed that these 1714 arms indicated that Robert was a child of Lord Thomas HOWARD and Lady Margaret DOUGLAS.”

At times I almost dream, I too have spent a life the sages' way,
And tread once more familiar paths. Perchance I perished in an arrogant self-reliance
Ages ago; and in that act, a prayer For one more chance went up so earnest, so
Instinct with better light let in by death, That life was blotted out—not so completely
But scattered wrecks enough of it remain Dim memories as now, when once more seems The goal in sight again. -- Robert Browning, Paracelsus

March 17, 2013
1:01 am
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Boleyn
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I’m lucky enough to actually live on the very land which Lord Darnley, (Margaret’s son who married Mary QOS) owned. He owned all the land between Gravesend to the River Medway, which is a sizable chunk believe me, and Lord Darnley also owned land in Herefordshire in fact my mum actually lived in a house which was part of his estate, in Herefordshire.
So in a way I feel very blessed to be living right on top of hundreds of years of History.. Hever castle Anne’s childhood home is about and hour and half drive from here, and Rochester castle is literely 5 minutes drive away.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 17, 2013
5:28 am
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chkylie
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black_mamba said

Margaret is a very interesting character. (She is my 17th Great-Grandmother through King James VI)
If I remember correctly, her mother Margaret Tudor, was married three times. Her second marriage, to Margaret’s father, Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus was rocky at best, and she later divorced him to marry Henry Stewart, Lord Methven. Interesting enough, James V (her half brother) bore a long standing hatred to the Douglas clan (Angus kidnapped him and held him as a prisoner for three years, using James to exercise full power until 1528 when he was able to escape from Angus and take the reigns of government himself) which included the burning of Angus’s sister, Lady Janet Douglas, or Lady Glamis as a witch (very interesting ghost story that goes along with that story!)
Also, I’m not sure if your aware of this, but there is some conjecture, about whether or not Margaret had a son with Lord Thomas Howard, while she was imprisoned in the Tower. Now we know, while she was in the Tower she became ill, and she was moved to Syon Abbey. It is there in January 1537, they say she gave birth to a son, whom she named Robert.
Here’s something from ancestry.com:
“This theory on Matthew Howard’s ancestry was proposed by James E. Moss in Providence, Ye Lost Towne at Severn in Maryland.1 His theory was that Thomas HOWARD (son of Thomas HOWARD, Duke of Norfolk, and his second wife. Thomas also had a son Thomas by his first wife.) and Margaret DOUGLAS (granddaughter of King Henry VII, niece of King Henry VIII) had a son Robert born about Jan. 1537 that was secreted away to live with relatives. He based this on a pedigree from the College of Arms that lists a Robert HOWARD born ca. 1530 of Brockdish, Norfolk, and wife Philippa BUXTON. The pedigree listed 11 children for Robert, two of them being John HOWARD who married —– LOCK and had 8 children (not named) and Matthew HOWARD who married Margaret ARTHUR and had sons named Matthew and Samuel. In 1714 Matthew and Richard HOWARD of London, great-grandsons of Matthew HOWARD and Margaret ARTHUR, were granted arms that Moss stated were the basic arms of the Ducal HOWARDs, with the inclusion of a mullet (Star). He stated the mullet/star is the basic symbol of the Scottish clan DOUGLAS, and that he believed that these 1714 arms indicated that Robert was a child of Lord Thomas HOWARD and Lady Margaret DOUGLAS.”

Wow, that’s really interesting… I never heard of this before and will definitely be doing some research on it!

--Kylie
queenaboleyn.blogspot.com (Tudor Blog)
kylie.floriental.org (Personal Blog)

"Let the grumble -- that's how it's going to be."

March 17, 2013
5:51 am
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chkylie
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Sorry for a double post…

I found this page very informational regarding the whole theory of Margaret Douglas having THomas Howard’s son: http://pweb.netcom.com/~fzsaun…..ddoug.html
It’s very interesting… but also very confusing. Any thoughts? It personally reminds me of the whole theory that Elizabeth I had Thomas Seymour’s son and I think both are highly unlikely, but still, interesting and mysterious.

--Kylie
queenaboleyn.blogspot.com (Tudor Blog)
kylie.floriental.org (Personal Blog)

"Let the grumble -- that's how it's going to be."

March 17, 2013
1:33 pm
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black_mamba
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It’s very interesting to speculate about, that’s for sure!
There is no proof to PROVE this theory, but there really is nothing to discredit it either.
Chapuys wrote that he had heard that copulation had not taken place, but this is second hand information. None of us was there, so we just really can’t be certain. Can you imagine how mad “Uncle” Henry would have been if his niece not only married with out his permission and consent, but ALSO gave birth to a healthy baby boy?? Surprised

At times I almost dream, I too have spent a life the sages' way,
And tread once more familiar paths. Perchance I perished in an arrogant self-reliance
Ages ago; and in that act, a prayer For one more chance went up so earnest, so
Instinct with better light let in by death, That life was blotted out—not so completely
But scattered wrecks enough of it remain Dim memories as now, when once more seems The goal in sight again. -- Robert Browning, Paracelsus

March 17, 2013
6:35 pm
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Sharon
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Hi Kylie,
Margaret was brought to court and placed in Mary Tudor’s household when she was about 15. They formed a friendship that lasted a lifetime. When Mary was sent to Hatfield to live, Margaret was removed from Mary’s household and became a lady in waiting to Anne Boleyn. Of course, that doesn’t explain any feelings she had for Anne. I really don’t know how she felt about her. This is the time period where Margaret fell in love with Thomas Howard. During Edward’s reign Margaret retired to her husband’s estates.

When Mary became queen, Margaret became a prominient figure at court. They had always shared a friendship and they were both firm believers in the Catholic faith. Margaret was given apartments at Westminster. She attended Mary dressed in the most expensive gowns and jewels of which many were given to her by Mary.

Her relationship with Elizabeth was rocky, at best. Mary gave Margaret precendence over Elizabeth at court and Margaret considered this right and proper. There was no question about her legitimacy. She was the daughter of Henry’s sister Margaret. It looked as if Margaret was going to be named as Mary’s heir. Elizabeth certainly must have resented this treatment, but she could not do anything about it.

After Mary died, Margaret was in and out of trouble with Elizabeth for supporting Catholicism, and for supporting Darnley’s marriage to MQS, which landed her back in the Tower for the second time in her life. Later she was again sent to the Tower for her son Charles’ marriage to Elizabeth Cavendish. In on the marriage dealings was Bess of Hardwick, Elizabeth Cavendish’s stepmom, but she was not sent to the Tower. I think Elizabeth had had enough of Margaret’s scheming.

Margaret Tudor was not happy in at least her last two marriages. At one point, Margaret ordered the cannons be fired on Douglas. Margaret was probably hoping that she would be happy when she fell in love with Thomas. I would think she was hoping that her choice was better than her mother’s. I think she took the idea of choosing her own husband from her mother.

As far as letters are concerned, I’m not sure where you could find letters written by Margaret. She was a poet in her day. There is a book called the Devonshire Manuscript to be found at the British Library. It is a volume of poems written by members of the court such as Wyatt, Madge Shelton, Mary Howard, and Margaret. The manuscript was passed around the court and the people who borrowed it, left an inscription of poetry. Some of these writings are autobiographical such as those relating to the secret marriage of Margaret to Thomas. A number of the poems were written by Margaret and Thomas. It includes 200 items written by many. The book belonged to Mary Howard.

March 18, 2013
1:57 am
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Anyanka
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Had any of Henry’s nieces had an illegitimate child*, he would have gone Librarian-poop big time.These were ladies of the Royal Blood and only H8 had the right to bestow them into legal wedlock.

* a child born to either a married woman whose marriage he didn’t agree/approve of or a child born outside of wedlock entirely. see how Elizabeth treated both Katherine and Mary Grey for wanting some happiness.

It's always bunnies.

March 18, 2013
2:14 pm
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black_mamba
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Check out this website for the Devonshire Manuscript: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/T…..ont_Matter
I found a copy of the book, the Devonshire Manuscript at amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer…..dition=new

Here is some interesting information I was able to find out about Margaret Douglas and the Manuscript:
“Margaret contributed much to the Devonshire Manuscript—hers is the single most prolific hands found in the miscellany. A group of poems within the volume (ff. [26r]– [29v]) are ascribed to Lord Thomas or Lady Margaret, probably composed during their imprisonment in the Tower. It is possible that the manuscript may have been their only point of contact during this time, entered by hand or by a scribe and passed back and forth through intermediaries. Two other poems have been attributed to Lady Margaret: “the sueden chance ded mak me mves” (f. [67v]) and “now that ye be assemblled heer” (f. [88r]). In addition to these verses, Lady Margaret’s presence in the Devonshire Manuscript is also evident in her extensive annotations, corrections, and demarcations throughout the volume.”
Thomas Howard also, contributed to it also:
“During the period of their mutual incarceration in the Tower, the Devonshire Manuscript may have been the pair’s only point of contact, passed back and forth through intermediaries. A large number of the poems within the Devonshire Manuscript are ascribed to either Thomas or Margaret, and more may have been written for them by a scribe. The correspondence between Margaret Douglas and Thomas Howard present in the Devonshire Manuscript is a good example of the elaborate interactions, coded in poetic metaphor, taking place within this select circle of courtiers. There are eight lyrics in Thomas Howard’s hand that are possibly of his own creation. Howard and Margaret Douglas also adapt some of Chaucer’s verse in interesting ways in order to communicate their mutual attachment, as well as to complain of their misfortunes”

What is really interesting is her early years before she came to Mary’s Household in 1530:

“Margaret was born under difficult circumstances. Her mother Queen Margaret was involved in a power struggle for the regency of her young son King James V of Scotland. Things became unbearable and Queen Margaret fled to England seeking refuge and a place to have her child. The birth took place on October 8, 1515 at Harbottle Castle in Northumberland.
Margaret and her mother remained in England for a year. Queen Margaret and Angus were reconciled and little Margaret and her mother returned to Scotland where her parent’s marriage rapidly disintegrated. At the age of three, Margaret’s father took possession of her. Angus took good care of her, assigning a governess although she did not receive a strong education. In 1522, Angus travelled to France and may have taken Margaret with him. Margaret did not see her mother from 1521 to 1524 and was highly influenced by her father, becoming very much a Douglas. Her parents were finally divorced in 1527. From 1525 to1528, Angus was in complete control of the Scottish regency. This was a time of great luxury for Margaret. As half-sister of King James V, she was treated as a princess. She may have become conceited during this time.
In May of 1528, King James V began to assert himself and overthrew his stepfather. Angus fought to keep his position until March of 1529. During this time Margaret travelled with her father, sometimes seeking refuge at Norham Castle. Angus finally fled to England taking the 13 year old Margaret with him. She was left with Sir Thomas Stangeways at Berwick until that summer. She and her ladies were prisoners but treated well. Margaret’s mother made an attempt at this time to get her back but was unsuccessful. Henry worried Margaret would turn out like her mother because he disapproved of his sister’s behavior. Sir Thomas wrote to Cardinal Wolsey that he was keeping a strict eye on Margaret, fearing she might be stolen into Scotland. Margaret was now legally the ward of King Henry who along with Wolsey, arranged for her to be brought south to live with her aunt Mary Tudor.”

At times I almost dream, I too have spent a life the sages' way,
And tread once more familiar paths. Perchance I perished in an arrogant self-reliance
Ages ago; and in that act, a prayer For one more chance went up so earnest, so
Instinct with better light let in by death, That life was blotted out—not so completely
But scattered wrecks enough of it remain Dim memories as now, when once more seems The goal in sight again. -- Robert Browning, Paracelsus

March 18, 2013
5:13 pm
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Sharon
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Margaret’s time before she came to live at court is very interesting. Funny thing Henry worrying about how Margaret might turn out like his sister. He had a lot of nerve questioning his sister’s choices!!!

I found a little bit about her personality. First of all, she was one of Henry’s favorites. She was outgoing, lively, lighthearted, attractive and popular. When she was moved to AB’s household, she got along surprisingly well with Anne.
Keeping in mind that she was a Catholic, Margaret made fun of Elizabeth behind her back. Bess of Hardwick would amuse MQS with tales of Elizabeth’s “mannish” ways. She told Mary that Margaret and she could not look at each other while in Elizabeth’s presence because they would have burst out laughing.

March 18, 2013
5:33 pm
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black_mamba
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Sharon said

Margaret’s time before she came to live at court is very interesting. Funny thing Henry worrying about how Margaret might turn out like his sister. He had a lot of nerve questioning his sister’s choices!!!

I KNOW!! I mean that’s the pot calling the kettle black, don’t ‘ya think….

At times I almost dream, I too have spent a life the sages' way,
And tread once more familiar paths. Perchance I perished in an arrogant self-reliance
Ages ago; and in that act, a prayer For one more chance went up so earnest, so
Instinct with better light let in by death, That life was blotted out—not so completely
But scattered wrecks enough of it remain Dim memories as now, when once more seems The goal in sight again. -- Robert Browning, Paracelsus

March 19, 2013
12:41 am
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Boleyn
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black_mamba said

Sharon said

Margaret’s time before she came to live at court is very interesting. Funny thing Henry worrying about how Margaret might turn out like his sister. He had a lot of nerve questioning his sister’s choices!!!

I KNOW!! I mean that’s the pot calling the kettle black, don’t ‘ya think….

Did Henry actually get along with Margaret his sister? I know he threw a temper tantrum when she was married (by Proxy) to James V. Because up until the time of her marriage Henry was the King in the Nursery if that makes sence, and Margaret was always below him in rank, but once she married and became Queen of Scotland she was above him in rank and he didn’t like it one bit.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 19, 2013
1:46 am
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Anyanka
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black_mamba said

Sharon said

Margaret’s time before she came to live at court is very interesting. Funny thing Henry worrying about how Margaret might turn out like his sister. He had a lot of nerve questioning his sister’s choices!!!

I KNOW!! I mean that’s the pot calling the kettle black, don’t ‘ya think….

Good old Double Standards, eh!

It's always bunnies.

March 19, 2013
7:03 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn said

black_mamba said

Sharon said

Margaret’s time before she came to live at court is very interesting. Funny thing Henry worrying about how Margaret might turn out like his sister. He had a lot of nerve questioning his sister’s choices!!!

I KNOW!! I mean that’s the pot calling the kettle black, don’t ‘ya think….

Did Henry actually get along with Margaret his sister? I know he threw a temper tantrum when she was married (by Proxy) to James V. Because up until the time of her marriage Henry was the King in the Nursery if that makes sence, and Margaret was always below him in rank, but once she married and became Queen of Scotland she was above him in rank and he didn’t like it one bit.

Boleyn,
Henry did rule the roost. I mean the nursery. Arthur was living elsewhere. Henry, Margaret and Mary were together. Henry would have been given priority over the girls simply by being male. Because ‘male succession’ was so vital, no one would have stopped Henry from lording it over his sisters.

When Margaret was in England (1517) she stayed with Henry and was well received by him. Henry wasn’t pleased with some of her decisions and he let her know it. Henry advised Margaret in no uncertain terms that she should stay married to Douglas. She did go back to Douglas, but she continued to negotiate with Rome for a divorce. (Henry also backed Douglas for a very long time, which eventually wore on James V’s nerves.) In 1528 she married Stewart in spite of her brother’s pious warnings that marriage was divinely ordained.**choke** By this time, Henry had already told Anne he would marry her, which meant he was looking toward his own divorce.
So did they get along? The distance was a plus for both of them. He sometimes disapproved of her lifestyle, and she usually ignored his advice. Other than that, they got along just fine.

April 11, 2015
7:51 pm
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Alexandria
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Sharon said

Hi Kylie,
Margaret was brought to court and placed in Mary Tudor’s household when she was about 15. They formed a friendship that lasted a lifetime. When Mary was sent to Hatfield to live, Margaret was removed from Mary’s household and became a lady in waiting to Anne Boleyn. Of course, that doesn’t explain any feelings she had for Anne. I really don’t know how she felt about her. This is the time period where Margaret fell in love with Thomas Howard. During Edward’s reign Margaret retired to her husband’s estates.

When Mary became queen, Margaret became a prominient figure at court. They had always shared a friendship and they were both firm believers in the Catholic faith. Margaret was given apartments at Westminster. She attended Mary dressed in the most expensive gowns and jewels of which many were given to her by Mary.

Her relationship with Elizabeth was rocky, at best. Mary gave Margaret precendence over Elizabeth at court and Margaret considered this right and proper. There was no question about her legitimacy. She was the daughter of Henry’s sister Margaret. It looked as if Margaret was going to be named as Mary’s heir. Elizabeth certainly must have resented this treatment, but she could not do anything about it.

After Mary died, Margaret was in and out of trouble with Elizabeth for supporting Catholicism, and for supporting Darnley’s marriage to MQS, which landed her back in the Tower for the second time in her life. Later she was again sent to the Tower for her son Charles’ marriage to Elizabeth Cavendish. In on the marriage dealings was Bess of Hardwick, Elizabeth Cavendish’s stepmom, but she was not sent to the Tower. I think Elizabeth had had enough of Margaret’s scheming.

Margaret Tudor was not happy in at least her last two marriages. At one point, Margaret ordered the cannons be fired on Douglas. Margaret was probably hoping that she would be happy when she fell in love with Thomas. I would think she was hoping that her choice was better than her mother’s. I think she took the idea of choosing her own husband from her mother.

As far as letters are concerned, I’m not sure where you could find letters written by Margaret. She was a poet in her day. There is a book called the Devonshire Manuscript to be found at the British Library. It is a volume of poems written by members of the court such as Wyatt, Madge Shelton, Mary Howard, and Margaret. The manuscript was passed around the court and the people who borrowed it, left an inscription of poetry. Some of these writings are autobiographical such as those relating to the secret marriage of Margaret to Thomas. A number of the poems were written by Margaret and Thomas. It includes 200 items written by many. The book belonged to Mary Howard.

Margaret Douglas’s support for her son’s marriage to MQS also cost her her home, Temple Newsam House, near Leeds. There is a portrait of the two sons, Henry Lord Darnley, and Charles Stuart (later father of Arbella Stuart) of which there exist two versions. One has a plain background, but the other shows the long gallery at Temple Newsam as it was in their time. The house is still there, although much altered of course, and can be visitted.

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