MrsFiennes said

Sharon said

Hi Mrs. Fiennes,
I agree with you on every point except the one of Jane being in Cromwell’s pay. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that she was a spy for Cromwell or anyone else. When she came back to court after Anne and George were killed, she had already received her jointure from Thomas Boleyn. This left her pretty well off. She could have, and probably should have, retired to the country on the funds she received in her settlement. She would have been better off, but she had been at court most of her life. That was what she knew best, so she went back to court. She became the Lady of the bedchamber, and she was taken into Katherine’s confidence. I don’t know whether she could have said no to the queen. I sort of doubt it, but she must have been aware of the danger she was putting herself in by helping her. I just don’t think she knew how to extricate herself from the position the queen had put her in.

Jane did write a letter to Cromwell asking his help in receiving her jointure.You have to question this document because why would she think Cromwell would help her if she had not helped him at some point in the past?Ofcourse, it doesn’t mean she was a spy but what reason would he have to help her otherwise?I don’t think whatever debt he had to Anne or even if he felt he had one would have persuaded him to help any of her family after her death.In the end whether he liked it or not he did benefit from the Boleyn fall becoming Lord Privy Seal in place of Thomas Boleyn.

Cromweel was a step down from appealing to the King. She knew that by writing to the King it was very likely that her pleas for justice (I.e her jointure) would have been ignored. Plus the Boleyns in some way helped Cromwell rise from obscurity to where he was now. Granted Wolsey recognised he had talent but after Wolsey’s disgrace and death, he would have been just another wannabe who would have perhaps been forgotten. She had been at court from a very early age, it was the only life she would have known, so it makes sence that she would have wanted to stay at court. I don’t think she could have stopped K.H from her path of reckless behaviour but I do feel that she did try to stop her. Like all teenagers through K.H knew it all and thought that she could get away with playing with fire.
I think that her death was tragic in the sence that K.H thought by using her as a scapegoat she K.H could get away with what she had done.
I have to ask did K.H and Culpepper plan to blame Jane if they were found out? It seems strange to me that they both blamed her, perhaps they hoped that by blaming her Jane would suffer and they would go free. K.H perhaps believed that would be the outcome, but Culpepper had been at court long enough to know that, that wouldn’t work. Once Henry had decided the fate of the person was sealed they were dead no matter what.

MrsFiennes said

Boleyn said

MrsFiennes said

Sharon said

Hi Mrs. Fiennes,
I agree with you on every point except the one of Jane being in Cromwell’s pay. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that she was a spy for Cromwell or anyone else. When she came back to court after Anne and George were killed, she had already received her jointure from Thomas Boleyn. This left her pretty well off. She could have, and probably should have, retired to the country on the funds she received in her settlement. She would have been better off, but she had been at court most of her life. That was what she knew best, so she went back to court. She became the Lady of the bedchamber, and she was taken into Katherine’s confidence. I don’t know whether she could have said no to the queen. I sort of doubt it, but she must have been aware of the danger she was putting herself in by helping her. I just don’t think she knew how to extricate herself from the position the queen had put her in.

Jane did write a letter to Cromwell asking his help in receiving her jointure.You have to question this document because why would she think Cromwell would help her if she had not helped him at some point in the past?Ofcourse, it doesn’t mean she was a spy but what reason would he have to help her otherwise?I don’t think whatever debt he had to Anne or even if he felt he had one would have persuaded him to help any of her family after her death.In the end whether he liked it or not he did benefit from the Boleyn fall becoming Lord Privy Seal in place of Thomas Boleyn.

Cromweel was a step down from appealing to the King. She knew that by writing to the King it was very likely that her pleas for justice (I.e her jointure) would have been ignored. Plus the Boleyns in some way helped Cromwell rise from obscurity to where he was now. Granted Wolsey recognised he had talent but after Wolsey’s disgrace and death, he would have been just another wannabe who would have perhaps been forgotten. She had been at court from a very early age, it was the only life she would have known, so it makes sence that she would have wanted to stay at court. I don’t think she could have stopped K.H from her path of reckless behaviour but I do feel that she did try to stop her. Like all teenagers through K.H knew it all and thought that she could get away with playing with fire.
I think that her death was tragic in the sence that K.H thought by using her as a scapegoat she K.H could get away with what she had done.
I have to ask did K.H and Culpepper plan to blame Jane if they were found out? It seems strange to me that they both blamed her, perhaps they hoped that by blaming her Jane would suffer and they would go free. K.H perhaps believed that would be the outcome, but Culpepper had been at court long enough to know that, that wouldn’t work. Once Henry had decided the fate of the person was sealed they were dead no matter what.

Yes,I agree with a lot of this.But I still say the odd’s are good that she did spy for Cromwell.As far as K.H. is concerned,I agree with some of your statements.The thing I find tragic about it is her age and her nativity that she could commit treason and not be caught.After all that had happened by her time you would think she would not take the risk.But it does seem that could have been the plan to blame Jane.How they thought that would allow them to go free I don’t know.

K.H sounds like a typical teen to me. running recklessly in the flames of a burning house and thinking that no harm would come to her. In short she was invincible. As for the treason bit as far as I concerned she didn’t commit treason at all, not really she was thrown into the lions den of court and devoured. Granted she was foolish with Dereham, but she wasn’t at court then. So how could that be constued as treason against the King? Yes I agree the Culpepper incident shouldn’t have happened, but I don’t believe that they had sex, they wanted to, but knew that it was a big no no.
She was murdered by Henry just Anne was, just because the big fat smelly trogladyte couldn’t accept he was getting old.
Can I ask your reasons for suggesting that Jane was Cromwell’s spy?

MrsFiennes said

I believe Jane was a spy for Cromwell because he helped her with her jointure which then allowed her to come back to court in a high position such as a lady of the bedchamber.Her family was in disgrace and probably not one that King Henry wanted around him or his future Queens unless she had a purpose.I believe Cromwell wanted to make sure the Boleyn’s could never come close to the King again and to wipe them totally from court life.I think he planned to use Jane to accomplish this.By making her in debt to him she was forced to carry out whatever orders he gave or be sent from court herself.This life was all she knew so in a sense it would have been like death not to have a social position.

That sounds plausable, but Jane was only a Boleyn by marriage. Thomas Boleyn did come to court again, and played a very minor part (Holding a candle or something) in Edward’s christening. Jane was given the plum job in the the next 3 Queens household purely because she was the most experienced. If Cromwell had wanted to make sure that Henry didn’t get involved with the Boleyn’s again, he would have tried to destroy them all not just 2 of them. Jane I agree was used but not in the sence you mean. There is no evidence to suggest that Jane played any part in Anne and George’s downfall whatsoever.

What be the point in causing rebellion for Elizabeth sake? Like Mary she had been declared a bastard. Jane campaigned riguously to get Mary re-instated as Henry’s heir. Elizabeth was a nobody and a nothing as far as Henry was concerned.
The Pilgramage of Grace riots were to do with Mary well sort of she wasn’t involved, but one of the demands of Robert Aske was that Mary was to be named as heir once again. If anyone could give Henry a headache it would be Mary not Elizabeth. Remember Henry turned the Catholic church upside down for Anne and the turned it inside out to get rid of her, although he still considered himself as Catholic and was for want of another word a Pope King. Many people had died for the love of K.O.A, Catholic Church and for Mary’s rights. I think one of the reasons Cardinal Campagio gave about Henry arguement for annulment of the marriage was that due to the length of time that they had been married that it was considered as lawful, or something like that.
No Mary was a much bigger threat than Elizabeth could ever be.
Jane simply had no where else to go after George was executed, so why shouldn’t she stay at court at least there she would have a roof over her head and food in her belly every night. Only natural that she would have wanted her widows pension too.

MrsFiennes said

Boleyn said

What be the point in causing rebellion for Elizabeth sake? Like Mary she had been declared a bastard. Jane campaigned riguously to get Mary re-instated as Henry’s heir. Elizabeth was a nobody and a nothing as far as Henry was concerned.
The Pilgramage of Grace riots were to do with Mary well sort of she wasn’t involved, but one of the demands of Robert Aske was that Mary was to be named as heir once again. If anyone could give Henry a headache it would be Mary not Elizabeth. Remember Henry turned the Catholic church upside down for Anne and the turned it inside out to get rid of her, although he still considered himself as Catholic and was for want of another word a Pope King. Many people had died for the love of K.O.A, Catholic Church and for Mary’s rights. I think one of the reasons Cardinal Campagio gave about Henry arguement for annulment of the marriage was that due to the length of time that they had been married that it was considered as lawful, or something like that.
No Mary was a much bigger threat than Elizabeth could ever be.
Jane simply had no where else to go after George was executed, so why shouldn’t she stay at court at least there she would have a roof over her head and food in her belly every night. Only natural that she would have wanted her widows pension too.

It doesn’t matter if Elizabeth was declared a bastard she could still be made queen with supporters.I also think if Jane was a known supporter of the Pilgramage of Grace riots she would have probably been thrown bodily from the court at this point.But Mary1 was more of a danger to Henry at that time so I agree with you on that.I have seen no evidence that Jane supported Mary1 over Elizabeth unless she believed K.O.A was the rightful queen and Anne illegally married to Henry.

She was a maid in waiting in Kathy’s court, for I’m guessing 15 years or so, so to me at least she did except that Kathy was Queen and Mary was Henry’s heir. Whether she still felt that way after Henry married Anne I don’t know, but like a lot of people at that time(with the exception of a few) they basically kept their mouths shut and their heads down or they wouldn’t have a head to keep their mouths shut. Even Queen Jane had a hard time trying except that Mary was considered a bastard, but I believe that was perhaps down to the length of time that Henry and Kathy was were married. I.e Campagio’s quip. Your marriage is considered legal because of how long you have been married. If Henry had voiced his concerns about the legality of his marriage back in 1513 then it would be a worthy arguement, and in all likelyhood (IMO)he could have got an annulment then, and Mary wouldn’t have been born.
I can see your logic in a possible plot (loosely worded) in trying to put Elizabeth on throne, but it would create a civil war. People had had enough of wars, the Battle of the Roses wounds were still raw with some older members of court, plus they would have been aware of the problems with putting a child on the throne, especially one that was barely out of nappies (or clouts as they were called back then) and potty trained. Child Kings and Queens do not make good rulers, (in fact they don’t rule at all, they just sit there, giggling and playing with toys) especially if there is an older child there which is more able to deal with self seekers.
The protestant religion was basically an underground, hidden away religion at that time, it only became more open during Edward’s reign, and then of course Mary swept it back under the carpet along with the ashes of those she burnt. For the most part although Henry had stuck 2 fingers up at the Pope and taken control of the church in England, the country and Henry still followed the Catholic doctorine, so any rebellion in the name of Elizabeth would soon be stamped out.
A lot of people secretly at court secretly supported the Pilgramage of Grace riots, but knew enough to keep quiet.
Jane to me, was simply doing what she knew best being a lady in waiting at court, and extremely grateful that she still had that job. I don’t think she had it easy after Anne and George were murdered however, she would have had to contend with a lot of nasty remarks made towards her, and perhaps the other maids talking about her behind her back, but she must have been a strong enough charater to brazen out that storm.

JAne was almost certainly one of the ladies who heard Anne of Cleves talk about her marital experiences with Henry. IN fact, Jane gave evidence about this during the annulment proceedings which means that during AoC’s brief marriage Jane was one of the senior ladies of her court. That was due to the length of her service rather than any preferrment of an outside influence, though that wouldn’t have hurt.

To be honest, I can’t think of any other woman who served more than 2 or 3 of the queens during Henry’s reign. Although that may be due to the length of Henry’s reign rather than the desire or ability of the various ladies to serve the variously different temperments or religious views of the queens.

Boleyn said

Olga said

I think you’re overstating Jane’s position at court and importance to Cromwell MrsFiennes, which probably would have been very little. He also helped the family of William Brereton after he was executed, Brereton alone was one man who was not particularly close to Anne Boleyn or her circle and was probably a victim of Cromwell alone. Both his brother and his widow received assistance from Cromwell, again, probably out of guilt.
Cromwell hardly have been worried about the influence of Jane, Jane was not important enough to have anything recorded about her until the Catherine Howard incident. She was just a woman and had no power or influence at all.
As for her position at court I don’t think her position with Jane has been recorded specifically but there is no way at all she would have been in the inner bedchamber and been closely attending Jane. No way at all. She would have been part of the household and Jane would have had more than a hundred servants, probably 150 in her household, it was hardly the position Jane was used to with her sister-in-law.

I don’t feel I am overstating her position.I think she was probably accepted back into a high position very quickly with Cromwell’s help and her qualificaions probably did make her stand out as someone with a lot of experience so I don’t think people would have questioned it.All the better for Cromwell to use her as I think he did.I don’t think he helped anyone unless it was to his own advantage or helped HIM further his career within the court and with the king.

Yes Bo Cromwell did intervene for Wyatt. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I think Wyatt’s father went to Cromwell to plead on his son’s behalf.

Anyanka I know she had a good position with Anne of Cleves but I still don’t think she would have been in the closest circle of Jane’s ladies. I think she did attend the funeral as one of her mourners however, but I doubt she would have been very close to Jane, at least at first. Jane seemed to be intent on eradicating the memory of Anne by trying to run her household differently.
Morley was still close to Henry of course, which would have helped Jane get a position back at court.
There was a two-year gap between Jane’s death and Henry’s new marriage and they were probably looking for experienced members for the household, I would think Jane had proved her worth by then but I don’t think Henry liked her at all.

Anyanka said

MAny ladies were kept on as a nucleus court to attend Mary and/or other visiting royal ladies. Anne Bassett was one lady who was given into a household who were close to various royal palaces. Even though Henry was a widower, he still entertained lavishly and would need professional courtiers of both sexes to put visiting dignitaries at ease especially if he was showing how a prospective new wife would be served.

Of course I didn’t think about that, thanks Anyanka.

Boleyn said

I wonder what Jane must have looked like?

JAne must have been reasonably good looking since she was in the Chateau Vert in 1522 and that pagnent was noted for using only the best looking women of the Tudor court including Mary queen of France and both Boleyn sisters.

Anyanka neither had I thought of that either, but again that was all about Henry’s ego trip as well, he wanted to prove that despite the fact that he was a broken down lump of lard, or a clapped out, knackered old windbag whose only real use now was compost, (providing of course you had a large area of weeds to kill). He did like to surround himself with beautiful woman, to prove that he still got the sex appeal to pull dolly birds.
When Anne of Cleves became Queen, Henry needed experienced ladies in waiting in the court so that Anne would quickly adapt to her new life.

Certainly Hnery liked to hide his “heart-break” behind feasting with fair ladies. He did that following Anne’s fall and the news that Kathryn had a past.
Poor Anne really needed a compassionate group of ladies to help her make the transition from a provincal German lady to the Queen of England.

I also believe that this marriage would have been successful, if Henry hadn’t have been in such a hurry to get her here, and had taken his time to get to know her. K.H would have still come to court as Henry did like to have youth within it, as he still saw himself as the golden haired Sod I mean God of his youth, but K.H would have been just another mistress notch on his bedpost.

Certainly Anne never was given a chance to shine by Henry. She embarrassed him at Rochester by not recognising her “True Love tm” when Henry appeared in disguise and that sealed her fate as she was not worldly enough to brazen out her mistake.Along with her unfashionable clothes and lack of education in the skills Henry admired was enough to put a kybosh on any future marital happiness with Henry. Whether she smelt or used a perfume that Henry disliked and Anne’s body was as unappealing as Henry thought are matters that are beyond my skills of interpretation as I only have the reported words of a petulant brat to evalulate.

K.H flattered Henry’s ego in a way that perhaps that had never been before, and ultimately that ego and the vision he had of himself as young and virile was blown sky high when he found out about her behaviour. In short he had made a fool of himself, and exposed himself to the rest of the world as an old stinking stupid man, who had always prided himself on the fact that no one could ever make a fool of him etc. K.H was a foolish and reckless typical teen, but she didn’t deserve to die, and I think thhe reason to why Jane was executed was because of all the ladies in court she was the most experienced and therefore should have made sure that K.H behaved herself as fitting as the Queen of England. I think Jane did try to warn K.H about what would happen if she was caught, but K.H typical teen refused to accept the consequences of her actions.

Kathryn was certainly a plumb young morsel dangled temptingly in front of Henry like a good many other young noble women. Her previous realtionships gave her the ability to flatter a man using both her words and her actions. She was certainly a flirtious young lady and certain je ne sais pas like her cousin Anne.
She played Henry as both her cousins had. She held out the promise of legitimate sons following marriage and given her youth made her a much better prospect in retrospect than either Anne or Jane had being that much older.

What the rejection of Henry by Anne at Rochester started then finding out that Kathryn had her former lover in her household and was drooling over another pretty boy totally destroyed Henry’s self-illusions about his virility, good looks and overall youthfulness. That was the reason Kathryn had to die…her rejection of Henry and his position for her own happiness. That she found some-one else more appealing was treason in Henry’s eyes. She couldn’t be allowed to get away with an innocent courtly flirtation like any other court lady. Henry needed his wives to be above reproach until he got bored, that his own wife was messsing around was unthinkable.

Kathryn was guilty only of not being the image that Henry had spun around her. Her past was possibly no worse than many of her cohorts and her behaviour while married wouldn’t have raised many eyebrows if she had married any other 50 year old man. Both Kathryn and Jane paid the price for no other reason than Henry’s poor delicate feeling were hurt.