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Hypothetical: Mary Had A Boy Child
April 6, 2012
4:16 pm
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Bill1978
Australia
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Firstly sorry I couldn’t resist the Boney M pun

If one of Mary’s phantom pregnancies was actually real and she ended up having a song, would this have meant that England and Spain would have been united as one realm? And would this technically mean that the England we know today kinda wouldn’t exist. Since the son would have been the heir to the Spanish and the English throne and therefore would have had to run both countries correct?

April 6, 2012
6:45 pm
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Anyanka
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Philip already had a son by his first marriage so Spain had an heir already, Carlos. However he was locked away since he had mental problems….

Philip’s eventual heir was from his 4th marriage.

A son or daughter of Mary would certainly have inherited both thrones, following the death of Carlos.

It's always bunnies.

April 6, 2012
8:19 pm
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Bill1978
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Thanks Anya for the reply. I didn’t know about Carlos.

So the child would have been ruler in England BEFORE they ruled Spain? If the child was a daughter would they still have ruled Spain before the heir from the 4th marriage – I don’t know if gender played a role in the Spanish inheritance.

April 6, 2012
8:51 pm
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Anyanka
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It appeared to go males before females but Salic Law didn’t happen in Iberian countries unlike France. However a son from another later,legal marriage would inherit before a daughter from an earlier marriage.

Isabella was Queen of Castile and Juana became queen on her mother’s death. Juana was also the heiress to Ferdinand while she was Queen of Castile.

It's always bunnies.

April 7, 2012
12:46 pm
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Boleyn
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If Mary had,had a child that would have made all the difference not just for her but for the whole world. It was once said that if Mary had been given just 5 more years of life she may have actually succeeded in turning the country around and back to Rome too.
To be honest by the time Mary died the people were pig sick of the Catholic faith if being Catholic meant that you would have to die because you farted in church, then they could take the elevated host and shove it where the sun don’t shine.

As it happens Mary’s reign was the start of what we have now monachy wise. When James the 2nd he too was a devoted Catholic, and his reign was as big as the disaster Mary’s reign was. When James 2nd was tossed out on his backside (which by the way he and is wife set sail from Sheerness to France) I believe Parliament passed a law forbidding a Catholic to actually take the throne.
I don’t think it was just these 2 rulers that caused the problems however. Henrietta Marie (Charles 1st wife) caused her fair share of problems and Catherine of Braganza (Charles 2nd’s wife) wasn’t quite so much of a problem I agree but she was Catholic and therefore viewed with suspition, which led in turn to Rye house Plot which was an attempt to assasinate Charles 2nd and James, discredit and perhaps behead Catherine, and get the Duke of Monmouth (Charles’s bastard son) to rule instead. Of course that plan went out the window. Actually to give Charles some credit he actually from what I remember challeged the people who had said that Catherine was involved in this plot, by getting them to name dates times and places where Catherine met with them etc, of course they couldn’t so the whole plot was a complete shambles. I rather think Charles did pardon them for their silly behaviour and as we know he was forever forgiving Monmouth for his screw ups.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 7, 2012
4:17 pm
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Mya Elise
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I don’t know, maybe Mary would finally calm down and be happy for a while.
It’s the same question with everyone really…
What if Katherine of Aragon had a son who lived?
What if Anne had a son?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 7, 2012
6:02 pm
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Anyanka
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That’s the big tragdy about Mary…she longed to be a mother.She had a huge maternal streak and due to Henry, she was denied the chance to marry as a young woman and ended up trying to grab a few moments of happiness at a time when she was too old to be a mother…

It's always bunnies.

April 7, 2012
8:17 pm
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Mya Elise
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Yeah, I know. If Henry had cared a little more about Mary and her future then maybe she wouldn’t of been so messed up. I don’t understand why he treated her badly just because he was against Katherine for so long – like Mary caused any of this? And I know Anne didn’t like her because she thought she was a threat to her but maybe if Anne had spoken up for her and whatever maybe then Mary wouldn’t of hated her so much. From just Mary’s point of view, her father was an ass and Anne had something to do with it and something was happening to her mother. I’d be angry too if someone was trying to hurt my mother and put me away also. I love Anne but looking at just Mary’s case…her life was completely unfair and I do put most of the blame on Henry (98%) but let’s face it Anne probably didn’t want Mary in the equation and if I saw someone as a threat to me then I wouldn’t really like them either but still, Mary was a young girl.
I don’t know what to think of the situation, honestly, and if Henry had cared about his daughter rather than himself then maybe Mary’s life would of been different and perhaps happier. Everyone deserves a happy life but not all are born with the chance.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 8, 2012
5:30 am
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Bill1978
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So just to help with my clarification of how these things work, cause let’s be honest I am utterly clueless on these things. IF Mary had a child to Phillip and that child become Monarch of England and Spain – would that mean England and Spain became one country, cause presumably their child would have a child that inherits both kingdoms and so forth meaning they would be required to make decisions for both countries. Or am I not understanding the whole monarchy role in country formation. I’m purely basing my understanding on James I & VI succession to the English throne which combine Scotland and England – even though they didn’t become one until under Queen Anne.

May 3, 2012
3:29 pm
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Louise
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Bill1978 said

So just to help with my clarification of how these things work, cause let’s be honest I am utterly clueless on these things. IF Mary had a child to Phillip and that child become Monarch of England and Spain – would that mean England and Spain became one country, cause presumably their child would have a child that inherits both kingdoms and so forth meaning they would be required to make decisions for both countries. Or am I not understanding the whole monarchy role in country formation. I’m purely basing my understanding on James I & VI succession to the English throne which combine Scotland and England – even though they didn’t become one until under Queen Anne.

This did make me chuckle, Bill. I think there will be one or two Scottish people who may have a bone to pick with you! If the same monarch had ruled both England and Spain, it wouldn’t have combined them into one country. They would still be two countries, just ruled by the same monarch. When Britain governed half the world, those countries formed part of the Empire but were still countries in their own right, they just had their right to self rule removed. Likewise, although Scotland and England have the same monarch, and the two countries come under the umbrella of Great Britain, they are still two separate countries. Scotland still has it’s own independent legal system and always has had.

May 3, 2012
4:16 pm
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Boleyn
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Bill1978 said

Thanks Anya for the reply. I didn’t know about Carlos.

So the child would have been ruler in England BEFORE they ruled Spain? If the child was a daughter would they still have ruled Spain before the heir from the 4th marriage – I don’t know if gender played a role in the Spanish inheritance.

Here’s a little bit of info about Carlos..
Carlos, Prince of Asturias, also known as Don Carlos (8 July 1545 – 24 July 1568), was the eldest son and heir-apparent of King Philip II of Spain. His mother was Maria Manuela of Portugal, daughter of John III of Portugal. Carlos was mentally unstable and was imprisoned by his father in early 1568, dying after half a year of solitary confinement

Carlos of Austria, Infante of Spain, was born at Valladolid, and his mother died a month after his birth. The young Infante Carlos was delicate and deformed. He grew up proud and willful and, as a young adult, began to show signs of mental instability. Many of his physical and psychological afflictions may have stemmed from the inbreeding common to the House of Habsburg and the royal houses of Portugal and Spain. Carlos had only four great-grandparents instead of the maximum of eight, and his parents had the same coefficient of coancestry (1/8) as if they were half siblings. He had only six great-great-grandparents, instead of the maximum 16; his maternal grandmother and his paternal grandfather were brother and sister, his maternal grandfather and his paternal grandmother were also brother and sister, and his two great-grandmothers were sisters.
In 1562 Carlos fell down a flight of stairs, which caused serious head injuries. His life was saved by a trepanation of the skull, performed by the eminent anatomist Andreas Vesalius. After his recovery, Carlos became wild and unpredictable in his behavior.

Philip’s (Mary’s Husband) eventual succesor was his son by Anne of Austria, who was the daughter of Philip’s cousin Maximilian 2nd. Anne of Austria was also put forward as a possible bride for Carlos, as was Mary QOS..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 3, 2012
10:36 pm
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Bill1978
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Thank you Louise so much for that clarification. The examples you used really helped clear things up in my head. And I do apologise to any Scots out there for my terrible thinking and understanding.

And thank you Boleyn for that information on Carlos.

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