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Courtly Love
March 8, 2012
7:59 am
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Melissa
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Just had a thought. Bear with me as a I ramble. I have been with my boyfriend for 8 years and love him with all my heart. In 8 years though I’ve met a ton of cute guys and had tiny crushes on them. At first it was disconcerting, but once I realized that a little crush wasn’t a threat to a great love I was actually able to find them fun. For example, whenever I’m doing a play, I like to pick out a guy to flirt with (not anything major, really, I swear! Just some playful flirting) because it makes rehearsals more fun. Instead of groaning that I have to go to rehearsal, I’m excited that so-and-so might be there. I’ll pick my outfits based on what they might like and get jealous if another female flirts with them. If the director calls for volunteers, we’ll volunteer as a pair. If I need help with something, they will be the one to chivalrously come to my aid. Our names will be linked in the minds of our castmates. But, to be clear, I am in no way doing anything physical with them (nor am I teasing them. I think everyone knows it’s just innocent flirtation). After the play we go our separate ways. Another example of a similar phenomenon is the “work wife” or “work husband.” Sure, you can be jealous of your husband’s work wife but you probably aren’t actually threatened by her.

My point is, this is all remarkably similar to the concept of Courtly Love. Eric Ives talks about courtly love in The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn as a remedy against boredom and he supports his thesis really well. I am positing that we still need a remedy against boredom and we still practice courtly love; we just don’t call it that. Having someone to impress keeps us going. It’s a motivation to do our job (or to be the perfect courtier) when other reasons aren’t motivating enough. What do you guys think?

(also, on an unrelated note, I have used the pronoun “they” here when “he” would be more appropriate, but since there is no specific “he” and “they” is the closest thing English has to a gender-neutral pronoun, “they” it is. Just had to apologize for my grammar!)

Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.

March 8, 2012
9:04 am
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Boleyn
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You actually make a good point, innocent flirting does no harm as long as you have a partner who understands that. There are of course limits to what will be excepted, as flirting and what would be actual cheating.
As for playing a role in theactics, to be honest it does probably help to get into charater a little more if you can flirt. It’s just a role you are playing so there is no harm done, and it also makes the person you are playing more believable.
Just out of interest what play are you doing?
I’ve always wanted to act, but I’m getting a bit old now. I’ve been told I should be a comedian. I must admit I must have a sence of humour somewhere, and can take a joke, well I’m married to a dinosaur so that must be good for a laugh..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 8, 2012
9:31 am
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Louise
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I think you’re right, Melissa. It’s just that Henry’s courtiers had little constructive work to do so their flirting, or courtly love, was more exaggerated. We tend to be busier today and haven’t got the time for the refined gallentry of Henry’s courtiers!
Of course I never flirt, primarily because no one wants to flirt with me. There’s no truer phrase than, ‘it takes two to tango’.

March 8, 2012
11:35 am
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Melissa
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Boleyn, in a LOT of cases, the older the actor, the more roles he or she gets, so your chances may be better than ever! Your comment about being married to a dinosaur reminds me of an Agatha Christie quote: “An archaeologist is the best husband a woman can have. The older she gets the more interested in her he is.” And Louise, maybe people DO flirt with you and you don’t pick up on it!

Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.

March 8, 2012
11:49 am
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Sharon
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Been a very long time since I flirted with a handsome guy! The choice of men to flirt with is greatly diminished as one ages. Sad to say. However, boredom has not completely set in. There are a few knights…
I think you are correct in your view, Melissa. Following the rules of courtly love makes us feel good about ourselves. As long as everyone lives by the code, no harm will come. Good to know that chivalry lives on.

How come the smileys aren’t working for me?

March 8, 2012
11:58 am
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Boleyn
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Melissa said

Boleyn, in a LOT of cases, the older the actor, the more roles he or she gets, so your chances may be better than ever! Your comment about being married to a dinosaur reminds me of an Agatha Christie quote: “An archaeologist is the best husband a woman can have. The older she gets the more interested in her he is.” And Louise, maybe people DO flirt with you and you don’t pick up on it!

You could be right there, the older you are the more experience you have. I’m sure your’ll be just fine in the play you are rehearsing.
I love the Agatha Christie bit.
I’m not sure what roles I could play, as I walk with a stick and have a limp. I suppose I could play someone like Claude of France, as I’m given to believe that she walked with a limp. Or perhaps Alexander of Denmark as she got older as she too walked with a stick and had a limp and I believe suffered with hearing loss, and I wouldn’t have to pretend that I suffered with hearing loss as I already do.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 9, 2012
5:57 pm
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Mya Elise
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You guys are right, but, back then, I don’t know. It was takin very seriously. If Henry even saw Anne flirting with another then he’d have her gone in a second but yet it was perfectly okay for him to do it. ???
Sooo glad for women’s rights these days.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

March 10, 2012
9:12 am
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Boleyn
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Mya Elise said

You guys are right, but, back then, I don’t know. It was takin very seriously. If Henry even saw Anne flirting with another then he’d have her gone in a second but yet it was perfectly okay for him to do it. ???
Sooo glad for women’s rights these days.

Yeah you are right there Mya. I’m not knocking anyone here or being racist but much the same happens now with the Muslim community woman are very subservient to men and it’s ok for them to sleep around but if a woman was to do it they would be stoned. Like I said I’m not knocking their ways or being racist, it’s their way of life and it’s not for us to critize, i’m just drawing a basis of comparrsion. Tudor England was perhaps like this. It was ok for the men to Roger everything that moved but if a woman did it heaven help you. I believe William Parr’s (K.P’s brother) wife was going to be executed for just that, and it was perhaps K.P’s influence that spared her from that.
Flirting is perfectly ok, as long as you know where to draw the line. The only time you might get trouble as if your partner is jealous or gets jealous. I don’t understand jealously one little bit, in fact the word jealous to me means a root vegatable that has grown into a rude and amusing shape.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 10, 2012
10:05 am
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Sharon
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Mya Elise said

You guys are right, but, back then, I don’t know. It was takin very seriously. If Henry even saw Anne flirting with another then he’d have her gone in a second but yet it was perfectly okay for him to do it. ???
Sooo glad for women’s rights these days.

The thing with Henry was that he did see Anne flirting with her courtiers. I don’t think he became jealous though. I think when it came time that he wanted to be rid of her, he was able to turn that flirting into charges of adultery and incest.

March 13, 2012
4:29 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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It seemed in the middle ages flirting was a fine art and a learned skill. I recall reading about Eleanor of Aquitaine and her affection for courtly love. In Aqutaine it was an accepted cultural practice and Eleanor came from a world of troubradours. However, in the French and English courts, it was risque behaviour. Many of the myths of Eleanor’s life came from her practice of courtly love.

I admit, flirting is a foreign concept to me. In my homeland, I am a plain Jane, and mostly ignored by men. So, I just keep calm and carry on. However, when I go to Europe, I somehow become mysterious Anne (all dark hair and eyes), and I get a lot of male attention, especially in northern Italy. I got a random marriage proposal on the street. Mind, it did a lot (secretly) for a girl’s confidence!

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

March 13, 2012
9:33 am
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Boleyn
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DuchessofBrittany said

It seemed in the middle ages flirting was a fine art and a learned skill. I recall reading about Eleanor of Aquitaine and her affection for courtly love. In Aqutaine it was an accepted cultural practice and Eleanor came from a world of troubradours. However, in the French and English courts, it was risque behaviour. Many of the myths of Eleanor’s life came from her practice of courtly love.

I admit, flirting is a foreign concept to me. In my homeland, I am a plain Jane, and mostly ignored by men. So, I just keep calm and carry on. However, when I go to Europe, I somehow become mysterious Anne (all dark hair and eyes), and I get a lot of male attention, especially in northern Italy. I got a random marriage proposal on the street. Mind, it did a lot (secretly) for a girl’s confidence!

Duchess you say “homeland” Im intriqued where is your “homeland” As for flirting, well I think we all do it to be honest even if we don’t actually appear to. Dinosaur has a few female freinds, and he’s a terror for flirting, but it really doessn’t bother me because I see it as it is, basically nothing, it’s just words., by the same token I also have a few male freinds, and again it’s a case of ditto. It’s harmless words, and there is no harm done.
Eleoner of Aquitaine was a master for flirting and courtly love play.. even into her 70’s she was able somehow to get truberdours and poets to flatten her in songs and poems. She simply must have had a magnetisium to her nature which was irresitable to men. It was even said that she had an affair with Saladin. Again she must have used her panashe for flirting to ensnare Henry 2nd as she was older than him by I believe 13 years
I don’t think she actually had lovers, but of course Henry did, and she wasn’t happy about it, one of the the Fair Rosamund, was confronted by Eleanor, and allegely given the choice of death by poison or to enter a convent. It’s a story but again it’s all adds to Eleanor’s mystery. Rosamund did actually enter a convent, but I believe that was with Henry’s blessing and nothing to do with Eleanor.
Anne again had this powerful attraction to her, she was like a like a light that drew all the moths to her, unfortunalty for her it destroyed her.
However Anne, Elizabeth and Eleanor are simply those Queens who are completely unforgetable. We remember other Queen for this that and the other, but for the most part they are just baby making machines that on on an endless belter on the factory floor called pregnacy. However I will just say Elizabeth of York does play a part here as she did cement the two Roses back together again, but even so she still was a baby maker.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 13, 2012
10:41 am
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Sharon
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DuchessofBrittany said

It seemed in the middle ages flirting was a fine art and a learned skill. I recall reading about Eleanor of Aquitaine and her affection for courtly love. In Aqutaine it was an accepted cultural practice and Eleanor came from a world of troubradours. However, in the French and English courts, it was risque behaviour. Many of the myths of Eleanor’s life came from her practice of courtly love.

I admit, flirting is a foreign concept to me. In my homeland, I am a plain Jane, and mostly ignored by men. So, I just keep calm and carry on. However, when I go to Europe, I somehow become mysterious Anne (all dark hair and eyes), and I get a lot of male attention, especially in northern Italy. I got a random marriage proposal on the street. Mind, it did a lot (secretly) for a girl’s confidence!

Duchess, you really gotta watch out for those Italian men! I’m Italian and I’ve seen my male relatives in action.
Besides, the men where you live are probably afraid of your intelligence. Italian men wouldn’t find that a hindrance. How much fun that must have been to be stopped on the street in Italy and asked to marrya stranger. Ha! I love it.
Eleanore of Aquitaine is the only woman I know of who could get away with the practice of courtly love. She was brought up with it. Didn’t the whole thing start in her country? France and England were too staid for this practice to work. I see it as nothing but trouble for women in these countries. In theory it was a wonderful way to pass the time, but in reality, back then, it could be used against women, and it was.
Today, it’s a lovely practice.

March 13, 2012
11:51 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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Boleyn,
My homeland is in Canada. I live on the east coast in the small province of Prince Edward Island.
I find Eleanor of Aquitaine to be one of the most fascinating women. She was ahead of her time. There is a certain mystique about her that draws you in, and the won’t let you go.

Sharon,
Thank you for your kind comments. I’ve learned to watch out for Italian men!
I believe Eleanor’s grandfather, William IX, Duke of Aquitaine was considered the first troubadour. So it was in her blood!

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

March 13, 2012
7:41 pm
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Anyanka
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Another fan of Eleanor. I must dig out something about her so you can laugh with me at it…

I found it was Greek men who used to chase me when I was younger….

It's always bunnies.

March 14, 2012
7:01 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Another fan of Eleanor. I must dig out something about her so you can laugh with me at it…

I found it was Greek men who used to chase me when I was younger….

Eleanor of Aquitaine, was unique. I found it amazing that even towards the end of her life she made a very hazardous journey over the some very rough terraine to fetch a her grandaughter Blanche of Castille to bring back to the French court to marry her stepson. She was certainly a remarkable woman. Very tenacious and perhaps the only one who could keep John in check. Maybe if she had lived just that little bit longer John perhaps would have had the much needed kicks up his backside to keep the french terratories that Richard fought so hard to keep.
Richard was by far her favourite.
Anyanka for the most part Queens were rather dull and boring, as I said they were just seen as baby making machines, and founding perhaps almshouses etc, so Eleanor had a rare quality. She comes across from what I read of her as a very brave, tenacious, bulldog breed Queen who will not let anyone or anything stand in her way once she’s decided to fight for it, but in the same breath she was also very loving and loyal, I don’t think she perhaps had a lot of time for John and maybe this was one of the reasons to why he turned out like he did. But even with Eleanor’s guiding influence I think John would have turned out like he did. Strange that towards the end of his life he repented all of his sins.
Just out of interest here John asked when he was dying to be buried clad as a monk as near as possible to the tomb of St Wulstan, in Worcester Catherdral. He is buried in the middle of the altar his tomb is beautiful, although if you look at the carving of his face you can perhaps see the pain of a little boy lost. During the reformation I believe an absurd rumour went about that he was buried with a treasure at his feet, and 2 would be robbers somehow managed to break into John’s coffin they found no treasure of course as John had lost most of that in the Wash, but they did manage to pull out one of the sandals that John was wearing, just as they were about to poke about and see what else they could find a light appeared above the Altar and a voice warned them to back off, with that they dropped the sandal they had got and fled. The Monks restored the coffin and the light above the Altar disappeared. I’m not sure but I think the Sandal is actually on display, along side the Magna Carta, it’s been ages since I’ve been to Worcester Catherdral, but it’s a beautiful place to visit. King Henry’s brother Arthur is buried there too by the way…his effigy is rather worn possibly because it got bashed about during the reformation, but again it shows a boy to be rather small in stature, and gives the person looking at it a sence of a great promise lost. It’s the sort of feeling you get when you just want to pick him up and cuddle him to soothe all his cares away. Another fact about Worcester Catherdral is that parts of the cloisters were used in the 1st Harry Potter movie.
Anyway Anyanka there is another Eleanor liker here too. and amazing woman who was way ahead of the times….

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 14, 2012
8:56 am
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Boleyn
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DuchessofBrittany said

Boleyn,
My homeland is in Canada. I live on the east coast in the small province of Prince Edward Island.
I find Eleanor of Aquitaine to be one of the most fascinating women. She was ahead of her time. There is a certain mystique about her that draws you in, and the won’t let you go.

Sharon,
Thank you for your kind comments. I’ve learned to watch out for Italian men!
I believe Eleanor’s grandfather, William IX, Duke of Aquitaine was considered the first troubadour. So it was in her blood!

I know of Prince Edward Island. very difficult to get to I believe, but a beautiful place none the less. I live in Kent, England It’s known of course as the Garden of England, and as we know Anne’s home is Kent so there’s a good chance that she and Henry wandered all over where I am and certainly stayed at Rochester castle which is only a 5 min drive from here. Hever Castle is about an hour or so drivewise. Makes me feel rather proud of the fact that I actually live on a piece of land that Anne was on. Makes me feel closer to her if that makes sence, that I actually breathe the same air she did, and can touch the places where she once was. I rather think that Anne has always been part of my life, sounds daft I know, but I used to live in a place called Malvern, she must have hunted with Henry over where I lived as they stayed in a country house just a short 10 min drive from where I lived in a place called Castle Hanley, although it’s now called Hanley Castle, but you got to it by comming up the River Severn by barge through Tewkesbury via Upton which is only a further 5 mins drive from Hanley Castle, how cool is that?
I believe she and Henry visited Little Malvern Priory as well as Great Malvern Priory, when they were here too. Little Malvern Priory has a legend attatched to it.
The legend runs like this..
A Monk confesses to his Abbot that he had been having a sexual relationship with a woman in the nearby village. (which would have been Welland, as it litertery a stones throw from the Priory) The Abbot orders the Monk to do pennance, apart from the usual Hail Mary’s and Our Father’s, the Abbot ordered the Monk to crawl up the Ragglestone Hill everyday of course after about a months of doing this the Monk perhaps realised that this penance was going to far, and finding out that the Abbot was as guilty as he was, went mad, crawled up the Ragglestone hill stood up stretched out his arms and said ” may all those who fall in the shadow of the Ragglestone die as untimely as I do” and fell down dead.. This curse has taken the lives of The Abbot firstly Thomas “A” Becket and Anne Boleyn among others..
The windows of the Priory depict Elizabeth Woodville and 2 of her daughters, and Edward her son, there is also a member of a Royal house (I think it’s one of the Plantagnant line) buried in the Priory.
Anyway food for thought here, and again I love keeping you all on your toes….
Ayanka your’e a wonderful young lady with a wonderful spirit don’t ever lose that….

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 14, 2012
11:12 am
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Mya Elise
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I don’t know….I think Henry was, maybe, a little jealous that Anne flirted with others but he probably didn’t care too much because he had mistresses at his beck and call. Maybe he just stored up all the jealousy and saved it for later when he could use it against her, and he did so perfectly. He got back at her, ultimate revenge for looking another way and not honoring him 24/7. He was such a selfish man, it’s almost too ridiculous at times, he wanted everything about him every day, every minute, all the time. Maybe that was part of his hatred towards Anne, the fact that not just him, but her too, got tired of the marriage. He didn’t think that would happen because Katherine basically worshipped him all through the marriage mainly because she wanted him to love her again and Anne probably was mad at Henry for cheating so she acted like she was over it. I’d get upset too if my husband (not married by the way) cheated after telling me I was the only love in his life.
Oh man…I’m on to something…..LOL!

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

March 14, 2012
2:51 pm
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Boleyn said

DuchessofBrittany said

I know of Prince Edward Island. very difficult to get to I believe, but a beautiful place none the less. I live in Kent, England It’s known of course as the Garden of England, and as we know Anne’s home is Kent so there’s a good chance that she and Henry wandered all over where I am and certainly stayed at Rochester castle which is only a 5 min drive from here. Hever Castle is about an hour or so drivewise. Makes me feel rather proud of the fact that I actually live on a piece of land that Anne was on. Makes me feel closer to her if that makes sence, that I actually breathe the same air she did, and can touch the places where she once was. I rather think that Anne has always been part of my life, sounds daft I know, but I used to live in a place called Malvern, she must have hunted with Henry over where I lived as they stayed in a country house just a short 10 min drive from where I lived in a place called Castle Hanley, although it’s now called Hanley Castle, but you got to it by comming up the River Severn by barge through Tewkesbury via Upton which is only a further 5 mins drive from Hanley Castle, how cool is that?
I believe she and Henry visited Little Malvern Priory as well as Great Malvern Priory, when they were here too. Little Malvern Priory has a legend attatched to it. blockquote>

Boleyn,

Yes, Prince Edward Island can be an “out-of-the-way” place. It is a beautiful place; not so much in the winter. But the other seasons are usually pleasant, cool, and green. It actually reminds me of the Scottish borders. We have rolling hills and such.
Kent is one of my favourite places to visit in England. I visited Hever Castle a few years ago. I love Canterbury, too. There is so much to see there. I must return one day!
Have you ever visited Penshurst Place? It was a bit difficult to get to, but it was worth it! It’s such a beautiful place!

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

March 14, 2012
3:03 pm
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Boleyn
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DuchessofBrittany said

Boleyn said

DuchessofBrittany said

I know of Prince Edward Island. very difficult to get to I believe, but a beautiful place none the less. I live in Kent, England It’s known of course as the Garden of England, and as we know Anne’s home is Kent so there’s a good chance that she and Henry wandered all over where I am and certainly stayed at Rochester castle which is only a 5 min drive from here. Hever Castle is about an hour or so drivewise. Makes me feel rather proud of the fact that I actually live on a piece of land that Anne was on. Makes me feel closer to her if that makes sence, that I actually breathe the same air she did, and can touch the places where she once was. I rather think that Anne has always been part of my life, sounds daft I know, but I used to live in a place called Malvern, she must have hunted with Henry over where I lived as they stayed in a country house just a short 10 min drive from where I lived in a place called Castle Hanley, although it’s now called Hanley Castle, but you got to it by comming up the River Severn by barge through Tewkesbury via Upton which is only a further 5 mins drive from Hanley Castle, how cool is that?
I believe she and Henry visited Little Malvern Priory as well as Great Malvern Priory, when they were here too. Little Malvern Priory has a legend attatched to it. blockquote>

Boleyn,

Yes, Prince Edward Island can be an “out-of-the-way” place. It is a beautiful place; not so much in the winter. But the other seasons are usually pleasant, cool, and green. It actually reminds me of the Scottish borders. We have rolling hills and such.
Kent is one of my favourite places to visit in England. I visited Hever Castle a few years ago. I love Canterbury, too. There is so much to see there. I must return one day!
Have you ever visited Penshurst Place? It was a bit difficult to get to, but it was worth it! It’s such a beautiful place!

I haven’t visited Penshurst place but I do know it, again there is a lot of mystery to there too, the Penshurst Pirates,, not a very nice bunch of fellows. Rochester Catherdral is also a beautful place to visit and it’s just behind the Castle too.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 14, 2012
4:09 pm
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Anyanka
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The last time we went to PEI, we saw whales as we crossed the Confederation Bridge. Well, DH and the kids did, I was driving.

We lived in Wilts for 8 years. I often went to Avesbury and Glastonbury for a few hours. I didn’t like Stonehenge as much.

It's always bunnies.

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