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Thomas Culpepper
October 15, 2013
11:27 pm
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Boleyn
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I think K.H’s love was quite fickle, typical teenager attitude I suppose. K.H, was in some ways very immature, and she perhaps loved T.C at the time she wrote that note, but give it perhaps 6 months maybe a year that note would have meant nothing to her.
After all look how quickly she turned her emotions off over Dereham. Her love for him at the time was all fire and passion, but once he disappeared she simply airbrushed him out of her memory shrugged her shoulders and moved on. As for loving Lard arse, Hmm I think she saw him more as a sugar daddy and put up with having sex with him because she would have know you can’t get something for nothing. I think their relationship was a close one and possibly might have turned into a sexual relationship, but I doubt it would have lasted to long. I rather think that K.H was in love with the idea of being in love.
As for the way K.H’s charater was portrayed in the Tudors I just wanted to jump through the screen and hit her…………… Hard with a slice of lemon wrapped around a housebrick.
T.C well yes I believe he was a spirited young buck, but he would have known the consequences of meddling with something that wasn’t his. He knew the risks he was taking when playing with fire, and as daft as this really sounds I believe Lard Arse may have even suspected that there was attraction between T.C and K.H. Lard Arse may have been a stinking lump of blubber, who was a little short sighted but I don’t think for one minute he couldn’t see what was obvisous from the minute K.H laid her eyes on T.C. It was only when he wwas told that others could see it too, and that K.H wasn’t a lily white as he first believed, and I think he knew from the start she was no virgin, that he had to act. His anger at the situation was partly down to the fact that people saw through his deception and were perhaps whispering (Lard Arse was paranoid) about him allowing T.C to go near his wife. Yes he played the outraged husband and threatened to kill her himself, but one thing is certain here that Lard Arse would have made a very good Shakespearean actor, and it was a role he had perfected when Anne. B was chopped up. Playing the outraged husband and poor bleeding Martyr was all he could do. He was sod all use for anything else except perhaps compost, but then I want my vegatables to grow not be killed off by his stink.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 15, 2013
11:29 pm
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Boleyn
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Boleyn said

I think K.H’s love was quite fickle, typical teenager attitude I suppose. K.H, was in some ways very immature, and she perhaps loved T.C at the time she wrote that note, but give it perhaps 6 months maybe a year that note would have meant nothing to her.
After all look how quickly she turned her emotions off over Dereham. Her love for him at the time was all fire and passion, but once he disappeared she simply airbrushed him out of her memory shrugged her shoulders and moved on. As for loving Lard arse, Hmm I think she saw him more as a sugar daddy and put up with having sex with him because she would have know you can’t get something for nothing. I think their relationship was a close one and possibly might have turned into a sexual relationship, but I doubt it would have lasted to long. I rather think that K.H was in love with the idea of being in love.
As for the way K.H’s charater was portrayed in the Tudors I just wanted to jump through the screen and hit her…………… Hard with a slice of lemon wrapped around a housebrick.
T.C well yes I believe he was a spirited young buck, but he would have known the consequences of meddling with something that wasn’t his. He knew the risks he was taking when playing with fire, and as daft as this really sounds I believe Lard Arse may have even suspected that there was attraction between T.C and K.H. Lard Arse may have been a stinking lump of blubber, who was a little short sighted but I don’t think for one minute he couldn’t see what was obvisous from the minute K.H laid her eyes on T.C. It was only when he was told that others could see it too, and that K.H wasn’t a lily white as he first believed, and I think he knew from the start she was no virgin, that he had to act. His anger at the situation was partly down to the fact that people saw through his deception and were perhaps whispering (Lard Arse was paranoid) about him allowing T.C to go near his wife. Yes he played the outraged husband and threatened to kill her himself, but one thing is certain here that Lard Arse would have made a very good Shakespearean actor, and it was a role he had perfected when Anne. B was chopped up. Playing the outraged husband and poor bleeding Martyr sad act was all he could do. He was sod all use for anything else except perhaps compost, but then I want my vegatables to grow not be killed off by his stink.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 16, 2013
7:44 pm
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Sharon
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Just what was the time frame between that letter being written and her telling Cranmer that it was all Culpeper and Jane’s fault? Maybe 6 months?
She was quick to deny him when it came right down to it. Thinking she would save herself, she placed the blame on everyone else. Katherine should not have been thrown into that lion’s den. Even though she was old enough in years, she was still a babe in the woods where that court was concerned.

October 17, 2013
12:19 pm
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Sharon said

Just what was the time frame between that letter being written and her telling Cranmer that it was all Culpeper and Jane’s fault? Maybe 6 months?
She was quick to deny him when it came right down to it. Thinking she would save herself, she placed the blame on everyone else. Katherine should not have been thrown into that lion’s den. Even though she was old enough in years, she was still a babe in the woods where that court was concerned.

I agree. K.H simply wasn’t ready to deal with all the shit and bullets that were part of court life. If she had perhaps gone to court a year or 18 months later she would have been a little more mature to understand what was going on around her. Her upbringing wasn’t exactly brilliant and I do feel that the Duchess was very lax in teaching her what she needed to know, when she went to court which given that she herself was at the very centre of the court activity at one point she surely would have wanted to make sure that K.H was as clued up as possible.
As for the Culpepper letter in some ways it could be constued as a sort of love letter, but the line “Come to me when Lady Rochfort be here” tells me that she had enough about her to know that if he did go to her rooms when she was on her own, it would be a lion in amongst the pigeons. so she was at least making some attempt of preserving her dignity.
The line “it makes my heart die that we cannot always be together” to me at least is exactly what a teenager says when they imagine themselves as being in love.
There is no date on the letter so it could have been written before she even came to court (Perhaps?) She did know Culpepper before she came to court after all.
The last sentence reads: One thing I had forgotten and that is to instruct my man to tarry here with me still for he says whatsomever you bid him
he will do it.
Note the “my man” again I know that there was a man called Davenport who had his teeth pulled out in front of Dereham I believe to get him to confess to his affair with K.H, but I have to ask why were Davenport’s teeth pulled out and not Dereham’s? Dereham was the one who had diddled with K.H so he was the one who should have had his teeth pulled out, and just who was Davenport? where did he fit in to this whole sorry saga? and What happened to him after Cranmer and the rest of the Murders R Us mob got their evidence?

In the letter there is also the mention of another man Who is she referring to? The phrase “my man” in my eyes at least means that whoever she is referring to she obvisiously had feelings for. If the letter was written before she went to court, is she referring to Dereham perhaps.

This is puzzling in K.H. letter :I trust upon still, praying you that you will come when my Lady Rochford is here for then I shall be best at leisure to be at your commandment, thanking you for that you have promised me to be so good unto that poor fellow my man which is one of the griefs that I do feel to depart from him for then I do know no one that I dare trust to send to you, and therefore I pray you take him to be with you that I may sometime hear from you one thing
I don’t think for one moment she is mentioning the King here, and the next sentence confirms that.
I pray you to give me a horse for my man for I had much ado to get one and therefore I pray send me one by him and in so doing I am as I said afor, and thus I take my leave of you, trusting to see you shortly again and I would you was with me now that you might see what pain I take in writing to you.
In my opinion, this letter was written when K.H was still in the Duchess’s household. Cranmer who was as vindictive and spiteful as the rest of the bunch that roamed the court, simply twisted the meaning of K.H whole letter to get rid of her and to bring the Catholic faction down.
Cranmer had only survived this long because Lard Arse needed him. Cranmer’s usefulness to Lard Arse was a little shaky at this point and the Howards, exploited this fact, along comes K.H who was pretty enough to catch the King’s eye. The idea being that the Catholics would rule the King and the country once again. Cranmer would be burned along with the rest of the Heretics. Mary would once again be the sole heir to the throne, would be married to a Howard, and poor England would forever be in the Howard Vice of Kings and Queens.
If K.H by some stroke of Genius did have a child by lard arse, and it was a boy there is a chance that it would become King instead, but I suspect that on the whole Mary would have been prefered, 1 because she was older (children do not make good Kings or Queens) and 2 because the people respected and loved her, just as they had loved K.O.A. 3 Because the howards would have needed an heir pronto to continue with their master plan. Mary could have theorecally given birth to an heir within a year of her marriage to a Howard and produced a few spares just to be on the safe side.
K.H’s child, would not be considered legetimate because of her so called precontract with Dereham, and therefore a bastard. K.H would be pensioned off and married to Dereham, end of story.
This is just, one of my off the latch ideas mind you, which you are used to by now. But there again it could well be what was going on in the tiny mind of Thomas Howard the odious slimy little cretin.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 18, 2013
8:37 pm
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Boleyn
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Oil up the rack Sharon, and sharpen the point’s on your Iron Maiden Anyanka, another off the latch idea is comming. I saw that Olga, don’t get rolling your eyes at me young lady LOL….
I’ve just been reading the “Love Letter” written by K.H. I don’t know why but I don’t think it was originally written for Culpepper. I have a gut feeling that the master Culpepper bit was added to make sure that when the shit hit the fan, that face ache wouldn’t try to back out of destroying K.H and the Catholic faction, for good as he had when Anne was in the same situation. Cromwell had managed to get face ache to follow through, with the death sentence on Anne and had her chopped up, now it was Cranmer’s turn to do the same, K.H must be chopped up and the Howards banished from court or imprisoned, as they seriously threatened Cramner’s strangle hold over face ache.
The way the word “Master Culpepper” is written seems in my opinion extremely flowery (for want of a better word) compared with the writting in the rest of the letter. I think the letter was orginally a letter written to Dereham. She addressed it to no one however, because it was her way of keeping secret her clandestine meeting with Dereham, knowing the Duchess would be none to happy with the whole situation, K.H had already, had a clouting from the Duchess, when she happened to walk in on them one day to find K.H and Dereham smooching, and of course if the letter was intercepted and taken to the Duchess, with no name on it what could be proved? In short very little.
Were there any other Katherine’s in the Duchess’s household, when K.H was there? If so the “Yours as long as life endures.. Katheryn, might not even be K.H at all.
K.H could read and write to a degree but nothing like the beautiful handwritten letters K.O.A, Anne and K.P could write.
So it might even be that this letter was written by Katheryn for one of her maids who couldn’t write for her sweetheart.
This is just a theory mind you, but I feel like Anne poor K.H was railroaded into death, and to me again like Anne she didn’t deserve to die. K.H was wrong, but don’t all teenagers screw up and make mistakes? It doesn’t mean they should be chopped up for it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 18, 2013
9:58 pm
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Bill1978
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K.H was wrong, but don’t all teenagers screw up and make mistakes? It doesn’t mean they should be chopped up for it.

Ah if only there was more of this today. I feel my work as a teacher would be so much easier with that threat of punishment.

October 18, 2013
11:48 pm
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Bill1978 said

K.H was wrong, but don’t all teenagers screw up and make mistakes? It doesn’t mean they should be chopped up for it.

Ah if only there was more of this today. I feel my work as a teacher would be so much easier with that threat of punishment.

Not easy being a teacher these days. In my shool days (back in the stone age) If we played up in class we got a clip around the ear’ole or a ruler across the knuckles. We may not have liked it at the time, and perhaps sulked about it, but at least it taught us to behave and show respect for the teacher. I must admit though I was a little sod, at times. Usually when I say this it’s a case of “If you could go back to school all over again would you do the same?” The answer there would be “Yes” but at the same time I would know when to stop, playing the bloody fool and get on with my work. If you want to act and play the fool do it in the playground or after school, not within the classroom, where there are other children wanting to learn. If you don’t want to learn there’s the door don’t let it hit you in the arse on the way out. Well that’s what I would do anyway.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 19, 2013
4:05 am
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Anyanka
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Bill1978 said

K.H was wrong, but don’t all teenagers screw up and make mistakes? It doesn’t mean they should be chopped up for it.

Ah if only there was more of this today. I feel my work as a teacher would be so much easier with that threat of punishment.

Cribbins..BTDT ignored the teacher…I was the sassy bint who ran rings round her teachers…No amont of punishment would have detered me..cos I was the speccie goody two shoes who sat at the front and was as innocent as new laid snow..

Childhood and teenage years are the tme that WE as humans push limits, learn limits and grow to be well rounded people..Teachers who want or demand total compliance..get a short shrift from both me and D’Hoffryn..

Our 3 are exected to show the correct responce to thier teacher while they are giving out the right answers..however given the diverse intereasrts D’H and I have ..then we can run rough shood over an un=prepared teacher..I spent several years correcting DD1`s English ( as a second language) homework as her teacher didn`t grasp the subility of English as she is spoked.

But telling me I couldn’t drink booze at 16…my sister bought it for me..

She was banned from buying cigaretees from the local shops..I bought her ususal brand and supplied that brand to those people who were prepared to buy my service for a small fee..
Teens quickly learn to avoid nastiness..16th C or now…

While I generally susport my 3 ‘s teachers…I’m not beyond

It's always bunnies.

October 19, 2013
12:04 pm
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Anyanka said

Bill1978 said

K.H was wrong, but don’t all teenagers screw up and make mistakes? It doesn’t mean they should be chopped up for it.

Ah if only there was more of this today. I feel my work as a teacher would be so much easier with that threat of punishment.

Cribbins..BTDT ignored the teacher…I was the sassy bint who ran rings round her teachers…No amont of punishment would have detered me..cos I was the speccie goody two shoes who sat at the front and was as innocent as new laid snow..

Childhood and teenage years are the tme that WE as humans push limits, learn limits and grow to be well rounded people..Teachers who want or demand total compliance..get a short shrift from both me and D’Hoffryn..

Our 3 are exected to show the correct responce to thier teacher while they are giving out the right answers..however given the diverse intereasrts D’H and I have ..then we can run rough shood over an un=prepared teacher..I spent several years correcting DD1`s English ( as a second language) homework as her teacher didn`t grasp the subility of English as she is spoked.

But telling me I couldn’t drink booze at 16…my sister bought it for me..

She was banned from buying cigaretees from the local shops..I bought her ususal brand and supplied that brand to those people who were prepared to buy my service for a small fee..
Teens quickly learn to avoid nastiness..16th C or now…

While I generally susport my 3 ‘s teachers…I’m not beyond

Telling a teenager they can’t do something to me is like a “red rag to a bull” because it just makes all the more determined to do it just to spite you.
The boozing issue being one of them. Here in England (which is very damp and depressing today) it’s illegal to buy and drink alcohol until you are 18, every country and in some cases state is different, in America I believe it’s 21. Anyway Teenagers will drink illegally, giving the good old 2 fingered salute to the authorties and the law. It’s funny when I was younger I was always out on the lash, but once I turned 18 drinking lost it’s appeal, it was no longer fun. These days I prefer to drink water, coffee or if Dinosaur and I go out for a meal (another rare occurance) pineapple juice or gratefruit juice and lemonade. Guess that really makes me sound like a boring, and to the younger generation we are all a bunch of doddering boring old farts, but to me at least it just says we are grown up and taking responsibility for our actions.
If K.H had been just that little bit older when she got thrown into the lions den, she more have been a lot more mature to deal with it. I think she would always be a bubbly outgoing girl, but would know when to be serious and know that she simply cannot invite young men to her room, even if it’s just for a chat, and a cup of tea with perhaps a choclate biscuit without causing major issues.
Poor K.H because of the manner of her downfall and death, she is perhaps the most tragic, thing of all. She was just a little girl in a grown up world, who was trying her best to fit in and do what was right. It simply became all too much for, and as a result, ended up doing the only thng she knew she could do play the fool so to speak. The Howard mob used her, and in a way abused her. Henry saw her as a trophy wife and a one up the arse point towards Francois, nobody really was that bothered with her at court, she was just the proverbial seen but not heard child. Because of thi she did the only thing she knew to feel loved and wanted and liked surrounded herself with people who were very bad for her and flirted with Thomas Culpepper. She was simply like a fish out of water in the whole court, and got chopped up for it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 17, 2014
7:54 pm
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Avarice
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I loved the portrayal of Thomas Culpepper in the Tudors, though I agree that it seemed a far bit more brutal than I could recall reading about. The scene where he rapes that farmers wife was awful. I wanted to slap his smug little face! I think KH enjoyed the company of Thomas because he was young and good looking, compared to the obese, impotent man that Henry had turned into. She was young and wanted romance, excitement and danger and Thomas offered that. I don’t think she realised the true consequences of what she was doing and in my own personal opinion, I believe Lady Rochford enjoyed watching her destroy her own life.

Maybe it’s from the influence of the Tudors TV show and the books I’ve read that portrayed Jane in a certain light, but to me she seems somewhat perverted and slightly crazy. Is it true that George and Jane did not get along? Was he really more interested in men? If this is so, it can maybe be understandable why she might go a little loopy, starved of affection or attention from her husband and after his death go even further off the rails at perhaps how much power and influence she had had over his death.

I think the main issue with KH was that she wasn’t prepared for or even really suited to court life and all the dangers and pitfalls. She needed a guide in how to get through a life of being married to an over-mighty and dangerous King and Jane steered her the wrong course.

Back on topic, though! The actor who played Thomas did a brilliant job, IMO. He was really good looking too, which made it more believable that KH would fall for him.

February 17, 2014
9:06 pm
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Sharon
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I don’t think Jane was responsible for Anne and George’s death, and I don’t think she was responsible for Culpeper or Katherine’s deaths.
There really is no evidence that Jane gave testimony against Anne and George. Whatever she or anyone may have said or didn’t say was twisted to suit the purpose of those who wanted Anne gone. She had no power whatsoever over George’s death. She was powerless to save him, that’s for sure.
There were no witnesses at Anne and George’s trial, so we have no idea who said what. We don’t know how George and Jane got along as a married couple. I think they worked together for the betterment of themselves and their family like most married couples.

It is only in fiction where Jane becomes this demented, spiteful, hated woman. Anne and Jane seemed to get along well together. She served Anne the whole time she was queen. She was banned from court for a short period for taking Anne’s side against a supposed mistress Anne wanted gone from court. Cromwell could have said anything, given any tale, and there was no one to naysay him at that trial in which guilt was a foregone conclusion.

Jane is always portrayed as the worse type of woman in fiction. She is blamed for what happened with Culpeper and Katherine. Isn’t that their fault? Katherine was queen. Jane set up meetings for her because she was told to do so.
There is no evidence of her being crazy after George’s death, but it sounds believable for it has been written like that for way too many years. She held onto her title and was respected upon her return to court. As far as we know there was no trash talk about her until after her death.
If she was bat crazy, I don’t think she would be allowed near the queens, or court for that matter. The only time we know Jane lost it, was when she was arrested during the Katherine affair. I think she probably had a nervous breakdown, but she recovered enough to die with dignity on the block.

An historian, her name escapes me, had a theory that George preferred men. Her proof…hmmm…she doesn’t have proof. She had a rather ignorant theory. Someone help me here! I can’t remember her name and I can’t remember if she recanted this story or is it still out there? George Cavendish who was at court with George said he was a womanizer. That may be true or not. George was highly educated, a capable diplomat, and a reformer. These things we know!
If you are interested, Avarice, there is a very good book written by Julia Fox called Jane Boleyn. It completely changed the way I thought about Jane.

I went on longer than I planned. Embarassed

February 18, 2014
4:28 am
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Anyanka
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I honestly believe that Jane has a far worse fictional post-mortem rep than any one other than George.

Many fiction writers seem to vilify one or other of these two in order to make the others in that history line more tragic in comparison…

It's always bunnies.

February 18, 2014
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Boleyn
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There is no proof one way or another to what Jane and George’s relationship was like, but I believe it was one of mutual satisfaction.
I don’t believe that she was jealous of George and Anne close bond, I believe that Jane confronted a love interest of H8’s during his marriage with Anne and told the woman to back off or else, and gave her a slap or 2 just to make sure she got the message. The woman must have got the point as she allegdely left court soon after never to be seen again.
The rubbish that she gave evidence against Anne and George at their trial is just that RUBBISH. If it had been true I think it would be highly unlikely that she would have continued to serve under 3 further queens. I also believe that she tried to act as the voice of reason when K.H became overfreindly with Culpepper. Jane I feel has been unfairly accused and condemned as a vicious back stabbing bitch, but I don’t think she was anything of the sort. I feel that she was too trusting and good natured for her own good and as a result she became a scapegoat for a lot of things that simply weren’t anything to do with her. If my lousy memory serves. I believe K.H and Culpepper both blamed Jane for their whole sorry state of affairs that they now found themselves in.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 19, 2014
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Sharon said

If you are interested, Avarice, there is a very good book written by Julia Fox called Jane Boleyn. It completely changed the way I thought about Jane.

I went on longer than I planned. Embarassed

I’ll definitely look the book up and give it a try! I’m always open to changing my opinions on someone. (:

February 19, 2014
12:22 pm
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Anyanka
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Avarice said

Sharon said

If you are interested, Avarice, there is a very good book written by Julia Fox called Jane Boleyn. It completely changed the way I thought about Jane.

I went on longer than I planned. Embarassed

I’ll definitely look the book up and give it a try! I’m always open to changing my opinions on someone. (:

IT’s an excellent book. It gives a good look at what a Tudor woman of the nobility would expect from marriage as well as Jane’s life story.

It's always bunnies.

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