Who is your favourite wife and why? | Page 3 | The Six Wives | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Who is your favourite wife and why?
June 14, 2012
2:13 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

To be honest I agree that K.P was perhaps the Queen who could manage Henry the best.
KOA was a stubborn woman, but then I’m not knocking that she had her scruples and her principles and to go against them would make her less of a person.

Anne B a real spitfire of a woman who roused Henry to great fits of temper and passion, which ultimately destroyed them both. When Henry killed Anne he poisoned himself. If that makes sence.

J.S well she was, as I said in another posting she was the calm after the storm, but I don’t think she had either Anne B or KOA intelligence to hold a conversation with Henry. The only spark of self will she showed towards Henry was quickly put down by him by telling her to shut her trap.

AOC. She was a sweet natured woman who had a great deal of love to give, if only Henry had given his marriage to her a chance I think it would have been quite successful.

K.H Was just a pawn in Norfolk’s game of Chess. Desperate men do desperate things and I’m afraid the K.H got caught up in it. A foolish teenager, who played with fire and got burnt.

K.P As with J.S, she was the calm after the storm. She had a great deal of tact and understanding when having to deal with Henry in a hissy fit.
Plus like her predessor she was in charge of England whilst Henry was in France. Henry wouldn’t have done that if he didn’t feel that he could trust her enough to look after England and see that things were done as he would have done them. Most people see K.P as a nursemaid and in someways she was, but there was a genuine affection for each other too. K.P did a lot to cement a very disordered and disfunctional family back together, and got Henry to accept his children for what they were.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 15, 2012
5:41 pm
Avatar
Debbie Sue
Texas
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 11
Member Since:
May 16, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This has been an interesting discussion. Most outstanding is that every queen had someone who liked. Yet, I did not realize the strong animosity felt towards Jane Seymour. I have a deep seated respect for Anne of Cleaves. She came to a land that was foreign in it’s language and culture. Feared being put to death as her predecessor. It appears she suffered unlimited criticism and ridicule about her looks and hygiene. Humiliated over the failed consummation of her marriage and the final rejection, divorce. Yet from all I have read, she remained humble, kind, non-judgmental, faithful, loyal and steadfast. A consummate Queen. I agree with Boleyn that had Henry only given this marriage a change, he would have found the Queen he searched for and perhaps many male heirs.

June 15, 2012
9:34 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Debbie Sue,
I’m going to leave Jane alone for the moment, and just say I have read more about her time with Henry, and my viewpoint has changed. I no longer have any animosity toward her.
I agree with you and Boleyn. Had Henry given Anne of Cleves a chance, they would have had a good marriage. But I also think if Henry had given Katherine of Aragon, or Anne Boleyn a chance, those marriages could have worked. In fact had he stayed with Katherine he could have saved the rest of these women a whole bunch of heartache. If only he had been able to appreciate what he had!

June 15, 2012
9:44 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Henry was always one for thinking the grass was greener else where and perhaps didn’t see or want to see that it wasn’t.
He also never admitted that he made mistakes he always somehow managed to put the blame on someone else.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 15, 2012
9:50 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Debbie Sue said

This has been an interesting discussion. Most outstanding is that every queen had someone who liked. Yet, I did not realize the strong animosity felt towards Jane Seymour. I have a deep seated respect for Anne of Cleaves. She came to a land that was foreign in it’s language and culture. Feared being put to death as her predecessor. It appears she suffered unlimited criticism and ridicule about her looks and hygiene. Humiliated over the failed consummation of her marriage and the final rejection, divorce. Yet from all I have read, she remained humble, kind, non-judgmental, faithful, loyal and steadfast. A consummate Queen. I agree with Boleyn that had Henry only given this marriage a change, he would have found the Queen he searched for and perhaps many male heirs.

Henry complained that AOC was a little smelly, but to her he must have stunk the place out. It must have taken all her nerve and skill not to want to throw up in front of him. Must have been the same with everyone else as well the whole court must have been able to smell him comming 5 minutes before there was any sign of him. Doesn’t bear thinking about, does it?. Small wonder part of Rochester castle has fallen down it must have done it just to get away from the smell of him..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 15, 2012
9:55 pm
Avatar
Louise
Hampshire, England
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 611
Member Since:
December 5, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don’t have a least favourite wife. It’s like choosing one of six of your most loved treasurers. You can’t pick a least favourite!
I kid myself that I don’t have a favourite either but that’s a lie. Anne will always be my favourite, but that’s looking at the wives with modern eyes. I admire her. I admire Catherine of Aragon too, but she was a Princess born to her role whereas Anne was forced to establish a persona based on the position she was placed in. She was a creation of her own making, which is what I so admire. Whether she’s loved or hated no one can deny that she was an incredible woman.

June 15, 2012
10:20 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You have to take into consideration that they all suffered being married to Henry. After that conclusion, you can feel a certain admiration for all of them.
Anne is my favorite and it is because I look at her with 21st century eyes. I can’t help it. I try to imagine being a woman at that court and catching the eye of Henry. Having no escape. I’d be on the next boat to France. I’d take my chances with Fancois. No strings there.
Katherine…such conviction. I often wonder if I would be able to hold onto my faith as she did or would I have caved. She had such an unshakable belief in her religious faith, and she never backed down.
As to the rest of them…I’d make room on that boat to France for all of them.

June 17, 2012
5:36 pm
Avatar
DuchessofBrittany
Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 846
Member Since:
June 7, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

Agreed Duchess. Katherine Parr was very resolute in her opinion towards religion, in fact you could say that she and KOA were passionate about the same things. Personally I would have found her very dull, but all credit and praise to her she was a published Author, an extremely rare thing to happen in those days.
Like you I have trouble coming to grips with her behaviour when she married Tom. I think she was just so wrapped up in love for perhaps the first time in her life, that she was completely blind to Tom’s unseemly behaviour towards Elizabeth.
Did K.P know of Tom’s marriage proposals to both Mary and Elizabeth before he asked her to marry him?

Boleyn,
I’ve never thought of KP as dull, but that is definitly the mythology surrounding her. I recommend reading Susan James’s “Catherine Parr: Henry VIII’s Last Love.” It presents Katherine in a much different light, by challenging the assumptions about her life. She emerges as a woman of great passion, great intellect, and the force behind moulding Elizabeth into the woman she became.
I do agree with you about her relationship with Seymour. It seems she has a weakness for rogues, much like Elizabeth. To me, it seemed she was desperate for love, and thought she found it with Thomas. Sadly, he was a prat and did not deserve her, but she was blind to indescretions.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

June 17, 2012
7:19 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I suppose to K.P dull is perhaps a little unfair. She was perhaps dull compared to Anne.B and K.H, but she must have had something about her.
Certainly she was well educated, and I agree she must have given Elizabeth the chance to see just how well a woman could rule on her own when Henry was in France. Basically K.P showed Elizabeth to rely solely on her own judgement. How did Elizabeth view Thomas’s behaviour towards her?
Elizabeth wasn’t stupid, so she must have known that his behaviour towards her was a little unseemly especially as he was classed as her stepfather.
Thomas was a complete rogue, so I wonder what he was playing at when he molested Elizabeth? I don’t believe he sexually abused her but I do believe he did try to rape her at some stage during her time at Sudley when K.P was pregnant. Although it’s been argued that Elizabeth was sent from Sudley in disgrace, I believe that that is not entirely true. K.P I think was angry at Elizabeth, but more angry at Thomas as he had betrayed her. Elizabeth being sent away was perhaps K.P way of protecting Elizabeth virtue. Elizabeth and K.P parted on good terms, but their relationship was never the same. Maybe if K.P had lived they could have in time rebuilt the trust they once had.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 17, 2012
10:55 pm
Avatar
AmandineR
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 12
Member Since:
June 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I was thinking about the six wives, and I finally concluded that I can’t choose my favorite wife. They are very different, we can’t compare Anne Boleyn with Jane Seymour for example.
As regards Thomas Seymour, I think Elizabeth was too virtuous to succomb to him. Katherine Parr considered Elizabeth as her daughter so I think she sent her to Sudley just to protect her.
(I really like this forum, it’s interesting to read the conversations. It helps me to learn more about The Tudors.)

June 17, 2012
11:20 pm
Avatar
Bella44
New Zealand
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 933
Member Since:
January 9, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You make a good point Amandine about the wives being very different, and maybe it’s not fair to compare and rate them against each other.
I’ve said before that after Anne B my favourite wife is Katherine Parr. While she was regent while Henry was away in France she had both Mary and Elizabeth with her and I think both girls learned a lot from her as queen and it had an impact on both of them when it came time for them to rule.

June 17, 2012
11:26 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

AmandineR Well you will certainly get to know the Tudors here alright. Just when you think you have them all figured out another mystery jumped up and bites you in the backside and throws your theory right out of the window.
I agree about not being able to pick just one wife as a favourite as they all had there merits good or bad.
I think you are right about Elizabeth in a way she knew from a very early age that once a woman succumbed to a man he became the master if that makes sence. But by the same token Thomas wanted power especially over his brother. K.P certainly loved him and that was perhaps her greatest pity as I kind of get the impression if either Mary or Elizabeth had said yes to his proposels he would have dropped K.P like a hot brick.
As I said in my previous posting I feel that Thomas had tried to rape Elizabeth at some point during her time at Sudley, and perhaps may have succeeded, but something happened to stop him, either Kat Ashley chased him out of the bed chamber as she had to do on several occations, when he became too bold, or K.P walked in on them. Elizabeth was an innocent party in all this. Thomas I believe would have done the same things over again if it was Mary living in Sudley, and not Elizabeth.. He was desperate for power, simple as.
I believe back then if a woman was raped it was expected that she would marry the man who had raped her. If Thomas had been able to rape either Elizabeth or Mary they would have had to have married him in order to protect their modesty. Don’t quote me though.
But if you look at it logically the very same thing happened where MQS was concerned, she married Bothwell who she claimed had raped her, and that in order to protect her modesty and her Royal name she had to marry him.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 18, 2012
3:44 am
Avatar
Debbie Sue
Texas
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 11
Member Since:
May 16, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

Debbie Sue said

This has been an interesting discussion. Most outstanding is that every queen had someone who liked. Yet, I did not realize the strong animosity felt towards Jane Seymour. I have a deep seated respect for Anne of Cleaves. She came to a land that was foreign in it’s language and culture. Feared being put to death as her predecessor. It appears she suffered unlimited criticism and ridicule about her looks and hygiene. Humiliated over the failed consummation of her marriage and the final rejection, divorce. Yet from all I have read, she remained humble, kind, non-judgmental, faithful, loyal and steadfast. A consummate Queen. I agree with Boleyn that had Henry only given this marriage a change, he would have found the Queen he searched for and perhaps many male heirs.

Henry complained that AOC was a little smelly, but to her he must have stunk the place out. It must have taken all her nerve and skill not to want to throw up in front of him. Must have been the same with everyone else as well the whole court must have been able to smell him comming 5 minutes before there was any sign of him. Doesn’t bear thinking about, does it?. Small wonder part of Rochester castle has fallen down it must have done it just to get away from the smell of him..

You are so right.

June 18, 2012
8:44 pm
Avatar
AmandineR
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 12
Member Since:
June 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn I totally agree with you. Thomas Seymour just wanted power. In a certain way I think we can compare him to Thomas Boleyn who used Anne to have a grip on the power and on the King (maybe I am wrong but that’s what I think). All the men close to Henry tried to have more and more power except Thomas More who stayed humble and faithful to his opinions even if it cost him his life. In fact, power drives the men crazy and it still valid nowadays.

June 18, 2012
11:20 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Certainly Thomas Seymour was a grasping man…Thomas Boleyn far much less. TB had been a favourite of H8’s for many years previous to Mary attracting his eye..

In Carolly Erickson’s The Last Wife of Henry VIII, Kathryn Howard mentions to Katherine Parr how TS had raped a gamekeeper’s wife with his aides holding her down a la Thomas Culpepper story.

It's always bunnies.

June 19, 2012
1:01 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

AmandineR said

Boleyn I totally agree with you. Thomas Seymour just wanted power. In a certain way I think we can compare him to Thomas Boleyn who used Anne to have a grip on the power and on the King (maybe I am wrong but that’s what I think). All the men close to Henry tried to have more and more power except Thomas More who stayed humble and faithful to his opinions even if it cost him his life. In fact, power drives the men crazy and it still valid nowadays.

I don’t think Thomas Boleyn wanted power. What he had was perhaps good enough for him. He was after all a valued and trusted diplomat, and by the time Anne came to court and caught Henry’s eye, T.B was close to retiring. Of course he couldn’t do that once Anne had caught the eye of the King.
The person who really wanted the control was King was Thomas Howard the Duke of Norfolk, who was T.B brother in law. Certainly Henry did give honours to T.B, but taking Anne out of the equation for a second, T.B had earned them.

Thomas More was unique, he was the only man who could tell Henry the truth about something and get away with it. In a way Thomas More gave us the foundations to what we have now. Freedom of Speech. He was the only man who was offered a job by Henry who agreed to take it on certain conditions. I.e when he was offered the job of Chancellor, he said that he would only take it if Henry kept him right out of the divorce proceedings.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 19, 2012
8:15 pm
Avatar
AmandineR
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 12
Member Since:
June 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Of course the Duke of Norfolk! I forgot him! I don’t know much about him but I’ve seen that he was terrible. He used Anne just for his personnal interest. Poor Anne… She definitely didn’t diverse what happened to her. She loved Henry as much as she could. Sometimes I feel very sorry for her but this story with the divorce and all that stuff was so complicated for the time..
Thomas More is a hero in a certain way Smile

June 19, 2012
9:51 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

AmandineR said

Of course the Duke of Norfolk! I forgot him! I don’t know much about him but I’ve seen that he was terrible. He used Anne just for his personnal interest. Poor Anne… She definitely didn’t diverse what happened to her. She loved Henry as much as she could. Sometimes I feel very sorry for her but this story with the divorce and all that stuff was so complicated for the time..
Thomas More is a hero in a certain way Smile

I don’t know why but Thomas Howard, makes my flesh crawl. He was a sly coniving twisted obseqious sod. He didn’t care how or who he trample on or destroy as long as he got power. Anne had his number though, she managed to keep him in line.
K.H wasn’t so lucky unfortunatly, her Uncle Thomas was perhaps the closest she’d had for a father in many years, and he ultimetely betrayed her too, like he did all those who outlived their sell by date. If they didn’t bring him what he wanted then he would destroy them.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 21, 2012
5:37 pm
Avatar
AmandineR
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 12
Member Since:
June 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thomas Howard was selfish. However I don’t know much about him after his manipulation with Anne but I know that he was dangerous. He did nothing to save Anne or Katherine. He was heartless and I assimilate him to a tyrant.

June 21, 2012
8:05 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

In a way Mon Ami Thomas Howard was. He was very brutal in the way he did things. He was a complete pig to his wife and used to frequently beat her. At one point he imprisoned her. I really don’t like the man at all. He was a completely cold blooded, ruthless arogant bastard.
I don’t think he ever showed any compassion for anyone or anything.. Although he was supossed to have cried when he sentenced Anne to die I don’t think the tears were for her, more for himself as he had lost a lot of Henry”s favour and really only redeemed it after the riots of the Pilgramage of Grace, but after K.H disgrace and execution there was really no way back again for him. Henry had him back at court, but he was never as close to Henry as he once was. In short Thomas cooked his own goose, and it was only Henry’s death that spared his life.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 214

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2337

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 933

DuchessofBrittany: 846

Mya Elise: 781

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 427586

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1711

Posts: 23075

Newest Members:

Goldyy, klftault, Opilacetault, 415berna, modwynVom, Thelmaaledo

Administrators: Claire: 959