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Which wife do you just not 'get'?
September 2, 2012
2:31 pm
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Boleyn
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I think Henry saying AOC stunk was the pot calling the kettle black. Henry himself can’t exactly of smelled of roses, with his infected rotten leg.
Holbien was known to be a little poetic with his paintbrush and Henry believed or wanted to believe that the portrait Holbien had painted of AOC was sacrosanct, but then it didn’t help that his yes men praised AOC up hill and down dale that she was a beauty, and every inch a Queen etc, so you can’t blame Henry for his attitude, when faced with reality. But then his yes men couldn’t afford to tell Henry the truth of the situation otherwise it would be their necks on the block, Henry was so unpredictable in his temper it was perhaps easier to say yes sir no sir 3 bags full sir, then to say “look Henry old Boy AOC is a ugly dumpy German bag who smells”.
Personally AOC is the wife I understand completely, She was thrown into a situation by her brother and she too had a different picture in her head of Henry and she too must have felt replused by the reality of Henry, but had decided to make the best of a bad situation. So when Henry said Agree to a divorce and I’ll make you my sister etc, that to her must have been a breath of fresh air and she would have needed it after being in the same room as him for a few minutes too. She got out with her head still attached and was wealthy with it. Good on her..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 2, 2012
3:49 pm
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Olga
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This is what I think of Anne of Cleves. Anne was not unattractive. Even if her nose was longer than in the portrait it was no longer than Anne Boleyn’s. The idea that she was unattractive, or smelled, is ridiculous to me. Henry was sulking because Anne brushed him off and didn’t recognise him when he was playing his silly game of disguise. He used the fact that she didn’t speak English and was unaccustomed to English ways and fashions to further convince himself she was unattractive.
The man was a massive egomaniac. The things he said about her were disgraceful. The fact that he claimed he was able to have ‘nocturnal emissions’ is laughable at his age. He wasn’t going through puberty, he was almost fifty. His delusional behaviour is further compounded by the fact he thought a beautiful young girl would fall in love with him (KH) and he’d actually be able to manage to have sex with her in the state he was in. He was already having erectile dysfunctions with Anne and it took him eight months to get Jane pregnant. To top it off he was still banging on about having sons with KP or any wife after that.
I don’t believe a word he said about AOC. She suffered a horrible humiliation and I don’t think she was relived to get out of marrying him either, while I would like to think that. Her brother tried to arrange marriage negotiations again for her again with Henry after KH was executed. She was heard to say that KP was not as beautiful as her when she heard Henry was getting married again. I don’t think she ever fully accepted what Henry did to her, but she made the best of it and with good grace.
And how could you? Imagine leaving your home to become Queen of another country, having horrible and humiliating lies spread about you and then being trapped in the same country to live out a charade, alone. Destined for spinsterhood because of a false pre-contract, and having to resign yourself to that so the bastard doesn’t murder you.

Ok I had better stop ranting now Laugh

September 3, 2012
2:28 am
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Anyanka
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poor Anne..happily enjoying a bear-baiting and some fat old chap bursting in and trying to kiss you. Her reaction to H8 must have been such a shock to him, no-one had ever implied Henry was less than the superb Prince of his youth…so lashing out at Anne was one way of hiding his embarrasement…

Then the name-calling and whispers of another woman being courted by your lawful husband…I’d be glad to accept the annulment too with dignity especially as, per Claire in another thread and possible blog post, Anne was free to marry again and she seems to have chosen not too….

It's always bunnies.

September 3, 2012
2:29 pm
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Boleyn
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If you look at it with AOC and Henry their marriage was a little like a game of blind date, with horrible consequences. We know that Anne was praised to Henry for being all he dreamed of in a woman, but we don’t know what was said to Anne about Henry I assume it was along similar lines that he was a golden God who was madly in love with her etc.. Again we know that Henry’s reaction to her was one of instant dislike but I suspect her reaction was just the same.
She must have been appauled to learn that this stinking overweight blubber mountain that had waddled into her room and kissed her was to be her husband. However like so many woman of that time she resolved herself to make the best of a bad situation.
When Henry wanted out of the marriage she must have felt like her wish had come true and the fact that Henry had offered her a nice little earner with her divorce deal, showed that he did have some feeling for Anne, he could if had wanted to just chuck her out lock, stock and barrel without so much as a pot to pee in, in much the same way as he did KOA.
A lot of that could have been from fear of retribution from Anne’s brother, but then the same could have happened when he tossed KOA out, with her nephew going balistic on Henry etc, but of course he didn’t but I think a few heated words and threats were exchanged.
As cruel as this might sound I rather think Anne’s brother was glad to be shot of her. I think Anne was fond of her brother but when she came to England as saw how the woman were here, being able to do what, when and how they liked that must have been a real eye opener for her. I kind of get the impression that life in her brother’s court was boring and she had nothing to do all day but sew and read books. The only thing I don’t understand is that why she didn’t send for her sister Amellia to keep her company, but then looking at it she perhaps didn’t want to push her luck where Henry was concerned.
Anne I think showed a great deal of tact and diplomacy when it came to the divorce, and I feel because of her behaviour thoughout it all and her behaviour towards Henry and the respect she gave him afterwards she earned his respect and admiration. I still feel that if he given his marriage a chance that it would have been happy, they may have also produced a a child or 2 as well.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 3, 2012
7:22 pm
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Sharon
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I don’t believe for a minute that Henry was telling the truth when he said Anne smelled bad, nor did he believe that she wasn’t a virgin because her breasts sagged. He was a piece of work. I think the man’s ego was wounded when she didn’t appreciate his little game. I’m sure Anne thought that Henry would be the handsomest king in all christendom, as that was what was said of him. So when this fat man in dirty clothes came up to her, grabbed her and planted a kiss on her, she was appalled.
Henry offered Anne a good deal. He gave her property, monies and freedom. She never had to go back to her brother. It was totally up to her if she wanted to remarry. Where the brother/sister thing came from I don’t know. My theory, which is just that, a theory, is that Henry and Anne must have filled those hours when they were supposed to be making love, with talk. I think they got to know each other, came to like each other and together they planned how to end their marriage peaceably. I can’t believe that Anne was as ignorant about the bedroom as she led her women to believe. She said they made love, because every night he kissed her and said good night, sweetheart. That doesn’t pass the smell test. No pun intended. It sounds more like Anne was setting up her ladies to be witnesses when the time came for the annulment. That is what she had to say so an annulment could be granted. The women had to testify that Anne was clueless and the marriage was not consummated.
There is nothing to prove my theory, except that Henry did spend his nights with Anne. If they weren’t making love, it stands to reason they spent this time talking to each other. That would have been a novelty to Henry. Maybe that is how he came to be so fond of her and why he called her his sister.

September 3, 2012
10:18 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon you could well be right.. I think their divorce was extremely amicable they could have just talked in bed or played cards perhaps.. I don’t know if you have seen the film Carry On Henry but there is a bit in it where Henry is married to a French Lady who puts him off making love to her because she stinks of Garlic, so to get around it in short to get a divorce for non consumation, he plays tiddly winks with her in bed.

I rather think that Henry and Anne understood each other better than anyone else did. I do think they did collabarate with each other to get the divorce to go through as smoothly as possible.
One thing that woman were taught from an early age were the birds and the bees, and it wasn’t uncommon for children to see their siblings born. So they were aware of what you had to do and which bits went where to make a baby.
Anne would have also heard her maids talking about their sex lives too.
I don’t buy into it that she smelled she probably used a perfume that perhaps was a little too scented for Henry’s liking.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 4, 2012
1:02 am
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Olga
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Perhaps the old stinker was smelling himself. Anne’s mother was a strict Catholic and I am sure she went through the “rules” of procreation with her.
Also really, wouldn’t it have been inappropriate for her to pay attention to a commoner who planted a kiss on her? She was probably horrified, and petrified. After all Henry had murdered one of his wives for adultery (only one at that point of course)
I like that theory Sharon. I haven’t thought about it that way before. Is it true Cat got nervous that Henry was going to go back to her at one point? After she made a good show at court for Christmas? I remember reading it, but I’m not sure where.

September 4, 2012
1:04 am
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Tash Wakefield
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I have read that theory before too. I think it may be likely that Anne was a bit prudish, even for Henry, and if it were true that he came disguised to give her a kiss, she was probably shocked at any man being so forward to her. I have heard other theories about Henry and his ‘masks’ and the fact that he was the only one who didnt know that everyone knew who he was behind his mask, and therefore everyone would pretend they didnt know eventhough it was clear, and then when he unmasked, they all pretended to be shocked. Kinda makes me think of a small toddler covering their eyes with their hands and honestly believing they are invisible! Perhaps he tried the same thing with Anne, and she genuinely did not know him, apparently it was a new years celebration or something, and she had not met him yet. But she may have been shocked because she’d never been kissed before and she had come to marry the King of england and she was taught to repel any advances from men, especially if her new husband and his leiges were watching. Perhaps it did bruise Henrys ego, as he would have most likely told everyone who would listen that he planned to kiss her in such spectacular comedic fashion, but even though i think little of Henry and his fickleness, I dont think even he with his ego would forgo an entire relationship and have his head council aka cromwell beheaded simply because his new queen had made him look silly. Then again his actions often shadow those of a small spoilt child. I think the story of the masked kiss was just a short anecdote expressing the relationship between he and anne, which was that she was frigid, uneducated in sex and male female relations in general, that he couldnt consumate, and that he blamed her, citing that she smelled and was physically so unatractive that it prevented him from committing the deed. His ego would have been the source of all the complaints about anne and her horsishness, and as you said, others thought her to be quite pretty. It is a very good example of the fact that he did stupid and childish things, and that his court would pass around rumours and even farbicate stories (or at least embellish them) to cover his fumbling childish tracks. I tthink there are many stories throughout history that shadow this one. Queen Victorias “we are not amused” Marie Antoinettes “let them eat cake” the kind of stories that get carried on because fact can be stranger than fiction, but fiction can become fact. Im not saying the story about him kissing her in mask and her rejecting him is untrue, there seems evidence of that, i just think sometimes stories are carried on because they capture the whole story in a neat little package, and make it easier for people to understand something that otherwise would make little sense.

September 4, 2012
1:26 am
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Tash Wakefield
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I want to say tho that my original post on anne of cleves was simply me trying to be humourous. I agree that Anne of Cleves seems the most human of all his wives, she seems the only one who didnt play him for a fool, or try to manipulate him for whatever reason. I agree that that was probably why she came out of the marriage with a title and a fortune, and more importantly her head. She must have been a strong diplomatic and agreeable woman, who called a spade a spade, Henry probably grew to admire this in her, eventhough he probably found it unatractive initially. He was used to women playing courtly games with him, it probably confused him for a while that a woman would be honest and forthright with him about her feelings and more importantly her feelings towards him. It may have bruised his ego somewhat to begin with, the fact that they did not consumate the marriage may have been partly because she simply was not at all attracted to him, and partly because she would not react to his advances cos she simply didnt like him that way, and who could blame her, he must have been disgusting! Her upbringing as a lady and a human being of honour and humanity served her well in life, and the fact that she stayed on in england and lived happily within Henrys circle until her death shows that she must have been quite a dignified and generally good woman. And perhaps the medicinal marijuanna wasnt so accessable in Germany?? lol

September 4, 2012
11:18 am
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Boleyn
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Tash.. Henry liked the idea of masks etc so that when the lady he was dancing with removed the mask she was to be both suprized and flattered that she was dancing with the King, and from his point of view that he managed to fool her into thinking she was dancing with the common Joe Bloggs person. I think that it was also Henry’s way of finding out what the gossip was about him, but anyone who had been at court long enough would have known that the person behind the mask was Henry, and it would only be someone who had newly joined the court and not yet had chance to meet everyone there yet that would be fooled by this charade.

Think about it if someone was plotting against the King how better to whisper these plans to others than through a masked party. The music would have covered what was being said and if Henry was dancing with one of the plotters he may get to hear what was going on, and who was out to get him..

Henry’s idea to go to Anne in disguise etc was more to flatter his own ego than hers. Like I’ve said in my prior post Anne was praised to heavens about being a ravishing beauty and being every inch a queen, and Anne was most likely told that Henry was a Golden God with the strength, courage and bravery of a lion was was madly in love with her and all because of what he saw in her portrait. So you can imagine her horror when firstly a stranger who looks like a blimp and stinks like an open sewer strides up to her and gives her a kiss, she mearly thought this was one of Henry’s servants who was acting above his station. She was still expected this man who had been described to her to come striding through the door and sweep her off her feet, so from that point of view you can see why Anne acted like she did when she found out that this blimp stinking of a sewer man in front of her was Henry. She must have felt she was in a living nightmare. From Henry’s point of view he was perhaps angry that she didn’t recognise him by his bearing and his courtly graces.
Either way whatever happened between them affected each other possitively and they became good freinds Henry often invited her court and I think she spent the Christmas of 1540 with Henry and K.H and was treated with all the honour and respect due to her.. Good Olde Anne..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 7, 2012
8:29 am
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Tash Wakefield
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Yes ive often thought that Anne of Cleves would be the only Tudor wife I would get along with, or at least i get the feeling she was an honest to god good person. Everyone else in Henrys court were there for what they could get out of Henry and those in his favour, but this girl came from another land with different rulership and wanted nothing more than what she was offered. I think that’s why she would have got the titles she was given, it was probably refreshing and somewhat shocking to Henry and his court. I am guessing the gossip surrounding her would not have entirely reflected that, but I dont think any of the Tudor gossip was entirely in earnest. It must have been awful to live in Henry’s court, one wrong step or word would either end your life at court of your life altogether, and you wouldnt be able to go anywhere without someone watching and passing it on! It sounds like an awful american highschool! “did you hear that the new Queen looks like a flanders mare! Henry said so himself! She must be so ugly, and ive even heard that he has complained of her ‘foul smell'” courtlife in tudor england somewhat reminds me of day time soapies, the bold and the beheaded!

September 7, 2012
11:06 am
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Boleyn
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Tash Wakefield said

Yes ive often thought that Anne of Cleves would be the only Tudor wife I would get along with, or at least i get the feeling she was an honest to god good person. Everyone else in Henrys court were there for what they could get out of Henry and those in his favour, but this girl came from another land with different rulership and wanted nothing more than what she was offered. I think that’s why she would have got the titles she was given, it was probably refreshing and somewhat shocking to Henry and his court. I am guessing the gossip surrounding her would not have entirely reflected that, but I dont think any of the Tudor gossip was entirely in earnest. It must have been awful to live in Henry’s court, one wrong step or word would either end your life at court of your life altogether, and you wouldnt be able to go anywhere without someone watching and passing it on! It sounds like an awful american highschool! “did you hear that the new Queen looks like a flanders mare! Henry said so himself! She must be so ugly, and ive even heard that he has complained of her ‘foul smell'” courtlife in tudor england somewhat reminds me of day time soapies, the bold and the beheaded!

Actually Tash, Henry never said that AOC was a flanders mare, somebody else said it and because of the situation between AOC and Henry at the time I.e deeply unhappy the flanders mare was atributed to Henry.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 8, 2012
9:14 am
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Tash Wakefield
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Yes that was exactly what i was trying to imply in my “quote” it was most likely gossip, and attributed to him as many things have been by many people, marie antoinette never said “let them eat cake” victoria never stated “we are not amused” thats what ive been trying to get across, although it may not be humourous to anyone but me, is the amount of rubbish that wasnt even stated by henry etc through history is still being passed around as fact. Direct quotes have only been established through the beginning of free media. Historical records and letters are the only direct qoutes we can refer to in the history before free media, and as many have stated, even they are hard to authenticate. Many letters from henry to anne etc have been kept in the vatican, and the last letter anne supposedly wrote to henry has been widely read but not entirely proven as hers. There is a great quote, “the first casualty of war is truth” and another “all is fair in love and war” i think the two blended together represent anne and henrys love story, and infact many great historical stories.
We all whinge about people like Philippa Gregory for putting her own spin on the facts, but the real fact is that it is all someones own spin. Aside for the primary sources, which even then are not always entirely authentic, all of the books written and research done has someones assumptions and theories blended through them, no matter what their education and credentials, they all put their own theories into their work, this is why we have to embrace forums like this, it is such a wonderful chance for us all to give our own opinions of the information we have individually found and embraced. It is true, i have not been reading primary sources and literature with ferver, i just believe it to be a good story, a tragedy as good as shakespeare could imagine, and even his take on henry and anne is tainted with his want to please elizabeth their daughter, whilst she ruled as queen. I am thankful that i can talk to you all about these things. And i am thankful for this site, its full of info and other wonderful tidbits. And i am lucky to be able to rant on with the best of them, even if i dont know what im talking about Laugh

September 9, 2012
2:55 am
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Anyanka
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Tash Wakefield said

Yes that was exactly what i was trying to imply in my “quote” it was most likely gossip, and attributed to him as many things have been by many people, marie antoinette never said “let them eat cake” victoria never stated “we are not amused”

But Rose said she did in that wonderful documentry series, Dr Who…

It's always bunnies.

September 9, 2012
5:02 am
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Tash Wakefield said

Yes that was exactly what i was trying to imply in my “quote” it was most likely gossip, and attributed to him as many things have been by many people, marie antoinette never said “let them eat cake” victoria never stated “we are not amused”

But Rose said she did in that wonderful documentry series, Dr Who…

Damn Damn Damn I forgot that Dr Who was on tonight. I wanted to watch how the Dr and his cohort killed the Dinosaurs, I’ve been trying to do that for years, and nothing works. I’ve tried every form of poison known to man and a few unknown ones too. But the stinky bad tempered fossilized old Dinosaur is still here. I’ve even tried tripping him down the stairs but he just bounced and didn’t break. LOL ROFLCGU

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 11, 2012
11:22 am
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Tash Wakefield
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LOL ahh finally people who understand….thanks for the laughs guys, its always a blast hanging round here! A blast from the past, but a blast none the less.

September 11, 2012
11:44 am
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Boleyn
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Tash Wakefield said

LOL ahh finally people who understand….thanks for the laughs guys, its always a blast hanging round here! A blast from the past, but a blast none the less.

Dinosaur is certainly a blast from the past alright… Scientists have been trying to figure out how the Dinosaurs died out, well the answer is right here. He ate them to survive through the ice age. One of the mad theories they came out with not long back was the dinosaurs all died due to flatulance, Well if that was true, they should have an olympic sport dedicated solely to flatulance he’s win the Gold, Silver and Bronze medals all in one go, no one else would stand a chance they all be gassed.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 11, 2012
2:49 pm
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Olga
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September 12, 2012
2:28 am
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Tash Wakefield
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I have a few conspiracy theories about dinosaurs (and everything else, as you may have picked up lol) i think they were dragons, and they were all killled off mostly by early man, then finished off by knights and other noblemen cos they were a menace. Perhaps their flatulence, perhaps they blew fire out both ends, or maybe they didnt breath fire at all, it just felt like they had!

September 12, 2012
12:28 pm
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Tash Wakefield said

I have a few conspiracy theories about dinosaurs (and everything else, as you may have picked up lol) i think they were dragons, and they were all killled off mostly by early man, then finished off by knights and other noblemen cos they were a menace. Perhaps their flatulence, perhaps they blew fire out both ends, or maybe they didnt breath fire at all, it just felt like they had!

They could well have been, but I bet they didn’t make toast like I can.. (Daughter’s pet name for me is Dragon)
There have been so many theories thrown in to why the Dinosaurs died out, I heard one not long back that the scientists thought it was Flu that killed them off. I don’t suppose we will ever really know.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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