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What if..?
November 3, 2012
5:13 pm
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Boleyn
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Ok most of us have seen Ray Winstone take on Henry V111, so this what if questions comes from that.
In the scene where K.H is stood at the window watching Culpepper die, the camera seems to move down and settle on her stomach, implying that she was pregnant.
What if Katherine was pregnant, but didn’t know it yet? After all it wasn’t uncommon to miss periods in times of stress. Granted she wasn’t executed until February and Culpepper and Dereham both lost their heads (in Dereham’s case a lot more than just his head) in November, so I guess any sign she may have been pregnant would have shown up. Or should I say confirmed one way or another.
But if she was pregnant would Henry have her executed? How would he handle the situation?
The only person that she could have married due to the alleged pre contract was dead, so would Henry have just divorced her and cast her off or would he have forgiven her?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 3, 2012
6:44 pm
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Sharon
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Hmmmm….I doubt Henry would forgive her if she was pregnant. It would seem to me that would make it worse, not better for her. He might have given her a reprieve to have the babe. I don’t know if he would have executed her after she delivered or if he would leave her in the Tower for the rest of her days. I do think that Henry would have moved on by then. He certainly wouldn’t want anything to do with a child born under these circumstances.
How could he trust her again? Even if she didn’t sleep with Culpeper, which is still questioned by many to this day, she was ruined by Mannox’s and Dereham’s statements. Henry would never have taken her back.
We all know how Henry was, if you did him wrong, you were never seen by him again. Once he felt betrayed by her, he left Hampton Court and left others to see to Katherine. He had already closed his mind and his heart to her. I’m afraid there would be no understanding or forgiveness for her.
What was the law as to executing a pregnant woman? I know in the 1700’s a woman could plead her belly and get a reprieve. Was there such a law in Henry’s time?

November 4, 2012
1:57 am
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Gill
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I don’t know what the law was in Henry’s time, but given the religiosity of that era I can’t imagine they would execute a pregnant woman. I agree Henry would have wanted nothing to do with it though, and it would probably have only delayed KH’s death by a few months.

November 4, 2012
4:08 am
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Anyanka
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Given that Lady Jane was examined by a panel of matrons to ensure she wasn’t pregnant …

As Henry was her lawful(awful??) husband and claimed he had not shared her martial favours for some time before her arrest..I’m thinking he wouldn’t have cared either way as it was almost certainly not his.

In those days, women prisioners could “plead the belly”, both Anne Bonny and Mary Read claimed to be with child to escape the rope..

It's always bunnies.

November 4, 2012
12:48 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said: As Henry was her lawful(awful??) husband and claimed he had not shared her martial favours for some time before her arrest..I’m thinking he wouldn’t have cared either way as it was almost certainly not his.

This is very interesting, and it’s one that is possible to believe, given the fact he was ill for a short time earlier in the year of 1541, and perhaps hadn’t regained his full strength when they went of their sabatical into York etc..Also given that would be in the saddle for the best part of the day he was perhaps knackered out by the time they reached their lodgings for the evening. I also feel that at times K.H got on his nerves, especially if he was in pain and tired.
So taking into consideration that they hadn’t had sex for a while, and if she had been pregnant how the hell would he have handled the situation?
He couldn’t shut her away in a convent as there were very few if any left. Her family perhaps would have looked after her,(Was her stepmother still alive?) but given how Norfolk (the odidious little git) completely disowned her I don’t think that would have been an option. Remember she was married to Henry regardless divorcing her wouldn’t have changed that, and if there was a child again regardless if it was Henry’s or not there would always be someone to try and use the child in some way. (The Duke of Monmouth comes to mind here). I rather think that Henry would have perhaps brought K.H off and sent her abroad as he had tried to do with Anne B. That way she could be made to conviently disappear along with her child. I don’t think there would have been any other option..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 4, 2012
2:52 pm
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Anyanka
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Had KH been pregnant by another man…..Henry would have gone ballastic…….He’d already had Dereham hung, drawn and quartered for enjoying KH’s early favours and Culpepper beheaded for thinking about it.

There would have been no way Henry would have allowed the fruits of his cuckoldry being out there and suspected of being his. Henry had spent 30 plus years and 4 wives trying for a legitimate line of succession to quietly acccept another man’s bastard to cloud the issue, so to speak. KH would not have been granted any mercy for that crime.

It's always bunnies.

November 4, 2012
4:19 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Had KH been pregnant by another man…..Henry would have gone ballastic…….He’d already had Dereham hung, drawn and quartered for enjoying KH’s early favours and Culpepper beheaded for thinking about it.

There would have been no way Henry would have allowed the fruits of his cuckoldry being out there and suspected of being his. Henry had spent 30 plus years and 4 wives trying for a legitimate line of succession to quietly acccept another man’s bastard to cloud the issue, so to speak. KH would not have been granted any mercy for that crime.

Again I totally agree with you.. K.H was dead from the minute he found out about her dishonest behaviour. He did call for a sword so he could kill her himself, and I feel if she did manage to reach him in the chapel at Hampton Court he would have strangled her.
This will sound strange (Iron maiden at the ready) I feel that his behaviour towards her was almost as if she showed him that he wasn’t the God he thought himself to be, and the rage and malice he felt towards her wasn’t just to do with her. It was combination of his anger towards K.O.A, his malice and spite towards Anne, his upset over Jane’s death, and his loathing of A.O.C.
K.H opened up a lot of wounds that he had tried so desperatly to forget.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 7, 2012
1:58 pm
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Boleyn
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Although K.H was condemned from the minute her wanton and naughty behaviour came to light and as we know pleading her belly if she had of been pregnant may have saved her life, once the child had been born would Henry still insist on killing her? Personally given what we know on K.H’s behaviour before her marriage (I.e her sexual conduct with Dereham and possibly with Mannox) I believe Henry would have had her executed, for him it would have been a convient way of getting rid of any threat of any person using the child in the future (even if it wasn’t his) to make a claim the throne. I don’t think he would order the death of the child however I think, the child would just disappear into history in much the same way as K.P child by Thomas Seymour did..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 7, 2012
11:29 pm
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Gill
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Boleyn said

Although K.H was condemned from the minute her wanton and naughty behaviour came to light and as we know pleading her belly if she had of been pregnant may have saved her life, once the child had been born would Henry still insist on killing her? Personally given what we know on K.H’s behaviour before her marriage (I.e her sexual conduct with Dereham and possibly with Mannox) I believe Henry would have had her executed, for him it would have been a convient way of getting rid of any threat of any person using the child in the future (even if it wasn’t his) to make a claim the throne. I don’t think he would order the death of the child however I think, the child would just disappear into history in much the same way as K.P child by Thomas Seymour did..

I agree with you, Boleyn…I think KH would survive just long enough to give birth – shedding of infant’s blood was abhorrent even then – and then Henry would have publicly disavowed the child to stop anyone trying to claim it was his, and then it would have disappeared into obscurity. But I think KH was dead regardless.

November 8, 2012
12:09 am
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Boleyn
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Gill said

Boleyn said

Although K.H was condemned from the minute her wanton and naughty behaviour came to light and as we know pleading her belly if she had of been pregnant may have saved her life, once the child had been born would Henry still insist on killing her? Personally given what we know on K.H’s behaviour before her marriage (I.e her sexual conduct with Dereham and possibly with Mannox) I believe Henry would have had her executed, for him it would have been a convient way of getting rid of any threat of any person using the child in the future (even if it wasn’t his) to make a claim the throne. I don’t think he would order the death of the child however I think, the child would just disappear into history in much the same way as K.P child by Thomas Seymour did..

I agree with you, Boleyn…I think KH would survive just long enough to give birth – shedding of infant’s blood was abhorrent even then – and then Henry would have publicly disavowed the child to stop anyone trying to claim it was his, and then it would have disappeared into obscurity. But I think KH was dead regardless.

The shedding of an innocent child’s blood is indeed abborant even today. But it didn’t seem so horrific to Mary, as she ordered the burning of Pettomine Massey, knowing that she was pregnant the child actually being born within the flames and Pettomine somehow managed to throw the child out to someone in the crowd thus saving it’s life, however it was promply chucked back into the flames by one of the people in charge of the burning and died with it’s mother. Pettomine is mentioned I believe in John Knox’s book of Martyrs. This could of course be a complete fabrication, but somehow given how zealous and fanatical Mary became there could be an element of truth in it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 8, 2012
7:16 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn,
Mary didn’t personally order this woman’s death. I lay the blame for Ms Massey’s death along with her newborn on the local judiciary and the Bishop. According to Fox, the infant was supposedly thrown in the fire by a local authority. These so-called trials took place in the area where these people lived. I believe she lived on the channel island of Guernsey. The local authorities and the Bishop (it was usually Bishop Bonner) had the consent of Parliament to proceed with trials, and they did so with gusto. These guys epitomized fanaticism. The trials and burnings got completely out of hand.
As to Katherine;
I guess I’d have to agree with the rest of you. Henry did order Katherine’s death, and whether she was pregnant at the time or not, she was a dead woman! A few more months reprieve was all she would have bought herself with a pregnancy.

November 8, 2012
9:19 pm
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Boleyn
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Agreed Sharon. Mary might not of known about Ms Massey being pregnant at the time of her death, but surely she would have been told by someone what had actually happened? Would she (Mary) have approved of the action taken though? Bishop Bonner was a real nasty piece of work, by what little I’ve read about him. He seemed to delight in torturing people whom he considered as Heretic, which given the state of the country under Mary’s reign covered just about everyone. Even breathing in when you should have been breathing out was considered a sign of being a heretic. Bonner’s very apt nickname was “The devil’s dancing bear”.
As for K.H one has to feel a lot of sympathy for her, she was just a silly giddy girl, who was betrayed and thrown to the wolves just because she fell in love. I believe she did truly love Culpepper and if Henry hadn’t have claimed for his own she would perhaps have married Culpepper and actually lived a happy if a somewhat frugal existence.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 9, 2012
1:57 am
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Anyanka
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I doubt that had KH marrried Culpepper in the begining, they would have lived a frugal life.

Henry was generous to those he favoured and Culpepper was one of the men who were close to him at the time. As a gentleman of his bedchamber, Culpepper changed his bandages as well as helping Henry dress and undress. Perhaps he’d have pimped out KH to Henry had they been married…

It's always bunnies.

November 9, 2012
12:02 pm
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Boleyn
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Silly me Anyanka I completely forgot that Culpepper was Henry’s pet Gopher/Doofer (brain doing the time warp again!!!!) So yes from that point of view if K.H and Culpepper had married, they would have been not rich exactly but comfortably well off. However given that Culpepper and K.H didn’t actually meet up until she came to court as one of A.O.C’s ladies in waiting (although K.H did know Culpepper and he had I believe spend a few months of the year at her home when she lived with her parents) I believe the situation would have come to the same conclusion as it did. Once Henry had made up his mind and pointed his weapon and his next victim the girl was doomed. There is no doubt whatsoever that Culpepper and K.H were attracted to one another, although some people believe there was a sexual relationship between Culpepper and K.H, I myself don’t believe it, their relationship was a strong one, but they both knew the circumstances if they played with fire whilst Henry was alive, in short K.H was a a little fool but she wasn’t stupid.
This is where Henry is entirely to blame for the whole pickle, surely he could see that there was an attraction developing between Culpepper and K.H? Remember when Anne.B came to court, she had a number of admirers 2 of whom were quite determined to win her affections, Henry Percy and Thomas Wyatt and Henry (King) had made his mind up that he would have her if it was the last thing he did, and made a very open point to chase off both Percy and Wyatt and any others who were attracted to her. So I can’t understand why he didn’t have a freindly word with Culpepper and perhaps send him away for a while. Henry needed glasses in later life to be able to read so perhaps his glasses weren’t strong enough to see what was going on, right under his nose.
Henry also in some ways forced the whole situation betwwen Culpepper and K.H to happen. Henry was at that time a bad tempered, cantankious smelly old git, not really up to the challenge of keeping up with a giddy girl young enough to be his daughter, in fact she was even younger than Mary, which must have been an embarrassment for Mary to have a stepmother younger than her, but even so Henry still wasn’t up to the job of keeping this giddy young girl in check. I’m given to believe there was a very short period perhaps of about a month where he was able to dance with her and do all the things he could do when younger, but it was soon over and Henry was reduced to just watching the dancing going on, and I rather think that he expected K.H just to be happy and sit by the side of him and just watch what was going on. Of course she wasn’t and I think that when she wanted to dance it was Culpepper who was her main dance partner, Culpepper was also the one who brought her little gifts and messages from Henry when he was ill. In K.H’s mind the gifts being brought to her by Culpepper was his way of wooing her (Hope you get what I mean) Anyway if Henry hadn’t of cast his eye upon her, would Culpepper and K.H been allowed to marry anyway, Dereham claimed there was a pre-contract between them and Joan Bulmer testified that Dereham and K.H often had sex when they lived in the Duchess’s household, and that Dereham and K.H referred to each other as husband and wife, so that would invalidate any marriage idea that Culpepper may have had towards K.H but also Culpepper and K.H’s family relationship, they were cousins after all. In the normal circumstancces that could have been got around via a dispensation from the Pope, but now that Henry was head of the church I doubt he would have given permission to marry, as he wanted her for himeslf. If they had of married I agree that Henry may have taken her for his mistress, that’s of course if he and A.O.C had stayed married.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 9, 2012
4:31 pm
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Boleyn
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Was there any chance of Henry sparing K.H’s life and sending her into a convent? Although there were very few left, she really didn’t set out to trap Henry into marriage, she just went to court because she was deemed suitable to be a lady in waiting for A.O.C. It was really that odious little twerp Norfolk that was her downfall more than anything else, he just saw K.H as a pawn in his latest machination to try and get more power and wealth for himself. She was wrong to play with fire but I don’t think she deserved death. K.H’s whole life was one of betrayal and sadness really. She lost her mother at around the age of 6ish and her father re-married fairly quickly I don’t think she had a particulary good relationship with either her mother/stepmother or her father who seemed to spend most of his time abroad to escape his creditors, she was literly shoved from pillar to post and perhaps never really knew what the morrow would bring. Perhaps her only bit of family stability came from living in her grandmother’s home, but even then her grandmother really didn’t bother much with her, yes she saw that K.H was clothed and fedd and given basic education etc, but apart from that she never really bothered much about her, the result being that K.H went off the rails..
Put simply her grandmother betrayed her as did Norfolk and all those who she believed were her freinds.. Again with the time machine bit I would simply want to take her in my arms and give her the mother’s love that she sorely needed in her short life.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 11, 2012
4:04 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said
in fact she was even younger than Mary, which must have been an embarrassment for Mary to have a stepmother younger than her

It may have been an embarrassment but it was hardly newsworthy. Catherine Willowby was 2 years younger than her step-daugther Frances Brandon.

Many women who were second or third wives had step-children the same age or older.

It's always bunnies.

November 11, 2012
4:21 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Was there any chance of Henry sparing K.H’s life and sending her into a convent? .

I doubt it. Her actions even if they were as simple as talking to Culpepper hit at Henry’s most vunerable spot.

His maculine ego.

The rumours of his impotence during his marriage to Anne though to his failure to sweep Anne of Cleves off her feet by his surprise meeting with her were suddenly compounded by the fact that his wife had shared her body with another man before her marriage and was sweet-talking a favoured courtier. It really was the final straw as far as Henry was concerned. He wanted a final solution but there was no Cromwell to do his dirty work.

That’s why the parliment had to pass a bill of attainer to show any woman who didn’t disclose her sexual history or commited adultry following her marriage to the king was guilty of treason. Conviently this solved all of Henry’s legal problems…

Since her warrent wasn’t actually signed by Henry, the formula “le roi volent” was used instead. Mary cancelled any that weren’t signed thus reserving the charge.

It's always bunnies.

November 12, 2012
12:22 pm
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Boleyn
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Am I right in thinking, that when K.H’s disolute behaviour with Dereham, and possible Mannox became known although Henry was annoyed and angry he had really just planned to divorce her. It was only after he found out that Culpepper had, had a dabble too, that he ordered her death.
Who was it who told Cramner or whoever was in charge of K.H’s interrogation, that Culpepper had been messing about with her too?

Anyanka: It was a good job Mary did cancel the “le roi volent” because if she hadn’t we wouldn’t have had Elizabeth 1st. Gardiner would have got rid of her.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 12, 2012
3:51 pm
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Sharon
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During Dereham’s interrogation, and trying to save his own neck, he told his inquisitors that they should look to the fact that Katherine was presently having an affair with Culpeper. Prior to this knowledge, Cranmer was hoping to obtain a divorce. (or an anullment…whatever it was they did) Once Henry knew about the current affair, there was no saving Katherine.

November 12, 2012
4:41 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Sharon.. I always thought it might have been Jane Rochford, who said that Culpepper was playing nudey prod games with Katherine.
Of course thinking about it now, it would only be completely natural for Dereham to have bleated about Culpepper. Dereham after all considered himself as Katherine’s husband, so Culpepper had not only been making Henry a cuckold, but himself as well.
In which case in begs the next what if question.. If Henry had just quietly divorced K.H would Dereham have taken K.H back? although she adamently stated there was no pre-contract between them the fact that she was known to have had sex with him in the maiden’s chamber in front of witnesses, well more heard than actually seen, but one doesn’t do a lot of huffing and puffing in their sleep (Snoring yes as Dinosaur does to the point that I have to clock him one with a pillow at times) for nothing, which seems to suggest to me at least that there must have been some sort of an understanding between them to actually have sex.
I believe it was you who said it Sharon?,(apolgizes in advance if it wasn’t) that once when someone asked the Duchess where K.H was she replied “oh she’s off having sex somewhere with Dereham”
Therefore in that statement alone it tells me that the Duchess knew what was happening under her roof with Dereham and K.H and basically either turned a blind eye or couldn’t have cared less, although she did once catch them in a intimate embrace and boxed both Dereham’s and K.H’s ears.
From that standpoint if she, the Duchess could see Dereham getting a little too close to K.H for comfort why didn’t she send him packing?
Was Mannox sent packing? or did he leave when he realised that he wasn’t going to get anywhere with K.H?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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